AMF Fighter

[Anthrowhale]

I'm still interested in the endless fighter vs wizard question, and have been trying to come up with a build that could at least challenge a wizard and generally can handle level appropriate monsters with ease. I think I have one now that's at least plausibly effective. It draws on elements of several other builds, but I haven't seen something as well-balanced previously in terms of both strong defense and offense. I'm interested in any comments or suggestions for improvement.

The basic rule I set myself is: no magic used in combat (or other routine interactions), although magic can be used to enhance the character out of combat. Valid rules are v3.5 (and 3.0 not superceded by 3.5). I've had to amend this rule the make the build viable against wizards, by using magic for initiative enhancement.

The starting stats are (32 point buy): Str/Dex/Con: 8, Int 16, Wis 14, Chr 18.

The build is Venerable Human Wilder 2/Fighter 1(Targeteer Variant, DM 310)/Battledancer 1/Crusader 1/Fist of the Forest 1/Master Thrower 2/Swordsage 1/Exotic Weapon Master 1/Master Thrower 3/Crusader 1/Warblade 1/Cloistered Cleric 1(Knowledge Devotion, War Devotion, Time)/Iajutsu Master 2/Warblade 1/Marshal 1

The end state is:
Initiative +64 (+15 Insight(MoP) +10(competence, Marshal)+10(Iajutsu Master)+20(Dex)+2(competence(Belt of Battle)+4(Imp Init)+1(Swordsage)+2(aggressive))
Spot +32, Darkvision 60'
AC 90, Touch AC 90, immune flat-footed, Can't be flanked, up to +16 more from Improved Combat Expertise
AC+20(Dex), +13 (Fist of the Forest AC), +10(battle Dancer AC), +1(Tumble AC), +5(War Devotion), +20 (LeShay Insight), +5 (Natural Armor), +7(Iajutsu Master) and Touch+5(Wilder)-1(aggressive)

HP 241
Immune Poison&Disease
Fort+31, Refl+39 (Evasion), Will+32(or +24 vs. non fear)
Move 70, Fly 140(good)
Space 5'
Reach 5'
BAB+16

End stats: Str 21, Dex 50, Con 37, Int 24, Wis 17, Chr 31

Skills: Tumble+53, Escape Artist+53, Hide: +53, MS: +53, Sleight of Hand +38, Spot+31, Iajutsu Focus +32, Sense Motive +26, K(religion)+10, K(local,nature,arcane,dungeoneering,planes)+6

The character specializes in thrown Sai or Dagger attacks. All such attacks are touch (Weak Spot from Master Thrower) and often flat-footed (high init + skill tricks), and doubled (Palm throw), sometimes strike adjacent (Two with one Blow), sometimes Rapid Shot, and sometimes under Improved Combat Expertise, implying an effective 20 attacks with touch attack bonuses ranging from +39 to +2 depending on choices.
The damage is: ~117 = 1d3+20(Shadow Blade)+20(Precision, Vital Aim, Targeteer)+20(Precision 30', Dead Eye)+20(Sneak attack, Craven)+2d6(Sneak Attack, Assassin's Stance)+~7d6(Iajutsu Focus)+~2(knowledge devotion)+1(enhance from weapon material)

A backup attack option is a composite longbow.

The character is reasonably capable throughout advancement. Two key tricks here are:
(1) Between levels 2 & 3, get Polymorph Any Object into an Anthropomorphic Desmodu Hunting Bat. (Backup alternative: Pixie)
(2) After level 7, gate in a LeShay, UPD on (very expensive) mind switch stone, then UPD on an astral seed, then undo the mindswitch before the gate wears off, then suicide.

There are many feats (assume 2 flaws), and Embrace/Shun is used 12 times in the build to replace class-granted feats and LeShay racial feats. The feats (unordered) are:
Unnatural Will
EWP(Katana)
Rapid Shot
WFinesse(Katana)
Quickdraw
Effective WF(Dagger, Sai, Short Sword, Unarmed Strike, Siangham)
Craven
Imp Init
Able Learner
WF(Katana)
Precise Shot
Combat Expertise
Imp. Combat Expertise
Shadow Blade
Improved Flight
Combat Reflexes
Point Blank Shot
Dead Eye(Dragon Compendium)
Mage Slayer
Darkstalker
Stand Still
Quick Recovery
Power Attack
Great Fortitude
Improved Unarmed Strike

Skill Tricks are Maxed out:
Slipping Past
Collector of Stories
Easy Escape
Sudden Draw
Nimble Stand
Acrobatic Backstab
Hidden Blade
Back on Your Feet
Quick Escape
Clarity of Vision

Trait: aggressive (Init+2)

There are many manuevers and stances including, Iron Heart Surge, Thicket of Blades, Assassin's Stance, White Raven Tactics, Shadow Jaunt, Flashing Sun, Counter Charge, Zephyr Dance, Mountain Hammer, Absolute Steel Stance, Steel Wind

Money is spent on: True Mindswitch, Shun/Embrace, Dex+5, Chr+5, Int+5, 2*Fast Leg graft, Crown of Eyes, Feathered Wings, Antimagic Torc, Custom headband of command word Foresight 1/day, custom ring of command word Moment of Prescience 1/day, custom bracers of command word contingent celerity 1/day, a belt of battle, and various weapons including a Riverine Katana which is held in the off hand and only used defensively.

This build addresses many different threats. The primary defense against spellcasters is the AM Manacles, but many more defenses are layered on.

Against all threats, a high initiative should be helpful.

Mailman build: AM Manacles + high Touch AC, Hide+Move Silently, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still.
Persistomancer: AM Manacles, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
Debuffer: AM Manacles.
Summoner: AM Manacles.

In melee combat, the build counters melee special attacks fairly well. The primary defense is flight, or failing that:
Trip/Splash/Grapple: high Touch AC
Sunder: Riverine or many weapons
Feint: Sense Motive+BAB
Charge: High AC or Countercharge
Overrun: Back on your Feet, Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
Bull Rush: Thicket of Blades+Stand Still
AOO: Tumble, Close Quarters Ranged combat (Exotic W. Master)

The weaknesses that I'm aware of are:
(1) Fear attacks can have an even higher DC.
(2) Precision immune types take significantly less damage.
(3) There are _many_ options between feats, class features, maneuvers, stances, and skill tricks. Mastering them all well enough to use them is nontrivial.
(4) Eventually, you always run out of ammunition.
(5) Drowning.

Edited: dropped Improved Combat Expertise for Darkstalker
Edited: dropped Combat Expertise for Improved Flight and bought feathered wings.
Edited: Changed the build to use Epic rules, since the only attack options for a wizard appear to be epic gate based. Changed Kelvezu to LeShay, added Mage Slayer for >medium mages, Dropped Swashbuckler for Warblade (uncanny dodge), added crown of eyes for all-around vision + Darkvision, added back Combat Expertise and Improved Combat Expertise, Dropped Evasive Reflexes, Weapon Finesse, Flyby attack, Great Flyby Attack.
Edit: Upgraded manacles to use Riverine rather than adamantium to defeat a sunder attack.
Edit: Changed Ranger to Fist of the Forest. Recycled LeShay racial feats to pay feat and skill tax on Fist of the Forest. Used easier mind switch version: UPD(Mind switch) + UPD(Astral Seed) on a (hired) Gate LeShay at level 7. This saves money and boosts hp.
Edit: Changed Monk to Marshal with a minor aura boosting dex checks. Made the character start as vulnerable for mental stat boost. Added trait: aggresive. The combined effect boosts initiative to 47 and AC to 91.
Edit: Downgrade AM-manacles to AM-Torc and picked up custom items affecting initiative. Initiative of +64 should trouble the wizards.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're still completely hosed if the wizard wraps you in a force cage. A wizard that you pick a fight with makes himself near-impossible for you to hit, closes you in a force cage, casts wall of force 4-5 times, then casts flashflood and waits for the bubbles to stop. If you discard your AMF manacles so you can teleport out of the trap, he demolishes you with all the usual tricks.

It's a sad, but true fact that even the most dedicated anti-mage martial build is completely unable to defeat a wizard without using magic to counter magic.

[Eldariel]

Really, defensive stacking is fairly pointless. Get as many defenses as you can afford but focus on the alpha. You want as many means to act out of turn order and act fast as possible and as difficult-to-block an offense as possible.

Here's an example of a Mage Slayer I used long ago in a Wizard vs. Fighter arena fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4439795); while the mage won eventually (and the mage was holding back), I still did manage to kill him twice simply due to him underestimating me. It's a subpar build; it didn't, for instance, use Legacy Weapon (which is an easy way to access Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience, Foresight-like ability to act flat-footed and similars) or Phasing Arrows. I also didn't have the time to fit stealth components into the build (would require some form of Hide in Plain Sight).

The build can basically arrow cascade anything out of turn order for ~40+ arrows and enough damage to kill most challenges you might find; it has White Raven Tactics & Iron Heart Surge, mostly good saves and overall fairly robust defenses and yeah, the ability to take a turn outside turn order as an Ex-ability 1/encounter.


My point is that a mage has all the tools; no matter how well you defend yourself, it won't be enough unless you have heaps of magic. Likewise, a mage's defenses won't be penetrated without magic. A mundane's best tools are stealth (stealth skills are difficult to hardcounter with magic) and strong offense, at range and in melee, preferably at high initiative counts. Focus on abusing any mistakes they might do, not being near immortal.

[Anthrowhale]

You're still completely hosed if the wizard wraps you in a force cage.


Force cage is beat 3 ways.

(1) It's unclear whether AMF beats Forcecage by RAW to me, since it is not specifically mentioned as an exception in either it's spell description or the AMF description. (Wall of force is specifically mentioned.)

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

(3) You can't drown someone who is flying in a forcecage that easily.

[Azoth]

Man...this makes me want to break out my attempted build to kill mages. He wasn't that strong at range, but could shut off a lot of the mage's abilities and defenses when he hit in mele. He could also keep up with a phantom steed in the air. Only escape was to teleport before he hit you.

[Eldariel]

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

This requires line of sight and effect; only works against certain types of Force Cages.

[Flickerdart]

Your best attack is +26? The bulk of your damage relies on precision, catching a wizard unawares and practically point blank range? Hell, you don't even have Darkstalker on there.

[Rubik]

Man...this makes me want to break out my attempted build to kill mages. He wasn't that strong at range, but could shut off a lot of the mage's abilities and defenses when he hit in mele. He could also keep up with a phantom steed in the air. Only escape was to teleport before he hit you.Or to have at least one clone (which is easy), be an astral projections (which is easy), have one of various contingencies - including Revivify (which is easy), have a tinfoil hat and a raven familiar (which is easy; what else other than a hummingbird are you going to have as a familiar, if you have one at all?), have Heart of Stone active (which is easy), have Greater Ironguard up (which is easy), or one of dozens of other things which can totally mess up your day.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Force cage is beat 3 ways.

(1) It's unclear whether AMF beats Forcecage by RAW to me, since it is not specifically mentioned as an exception in either it's spell description or the AMF description. (Wall of force is specifically mentioned.)

(2) Shadow Jaunt is an Ex teleport, allowing escape.

(3) You can't drown someone who is flying in a forcecage that easily.

1) It's unclear by RAW, but RAMS strongly suggest that forcecage beats AMF.

2) This is an obvious oversight, but I suppose you have a point. I'd be very surprised if a DM let it fly though. How do you justify non-magical teleportation?

3) That's why I said 4-5. 4 sides and a bottom, unless you're already on the ground, then just 4 sides.

Assuming that forcecage isn't bypassed by amf, you can still be contained in the opaque windowless cell version.

[Togo]

Why avoid using magic?

Wizards get magical class abilities, and magical equipment. Non-casters get fewer if any magical abilities, and magical equipment. Why make it harder for yourself?

I too had a mage-killer build. It wasn't particularly complicated, but I never got to test it out. The most impressive one I saw was relatively low level, and was an archer build, using various tricks to avoid the usual wizardly defences against arrows.

The problem is, the contest relies very heavily on the opinions of the DM. Many of the standard tricks, like the tinfoil hat, simply wouldn't work very well under some DMs. Others might not like my usual defence against forcecage - carry a long invisible pole with you. It becomes trick versus trick, and the symapthies of the DM may decide the contest, even if you're sticking closely to what you consider to be RAW.

[Anthrowhale]

This requires line of sight and effect; only works against certain types of Force Cages.

As long as it works for the kind tried, that's cool.

The other kind doesn't work naively because a 10' cube can't fully contain a 5' radius sphere. A widened version is possible, but it's a timeout option. Also forcecage is expensive. Also, wizards are pretty powerful---it's quite reasonable for a DM to limit forcecage to be beaten by AMF.


Your best attack is +26?

Not many things have a touch AC of 26.


The bulk of your damage relies on precision,

There's enough overkill to deal with the typical precision-immune wizard.



catching a wizard unawares and practically point blank range? Hell, you don't even have Darkstalker on there.

Right. Fixed that---lost in an earlier editing pass.



2) This is an obvious oversight, but I suppose you have a point. I'd be very surprised if a DM let it fly though. How do you justify non-magical teleportation?


It seems freakish, but that's the rules.



3) That's why I said 4-5. 4 sides and a bottom, unless you're already on the ground, then just 4 sides.


A Wall of Force is always vertical according to the spell description. Do you have some way to change it's structure?


Or to have at least one clone (which is easy), be an astral projections (which is easy), have one of various contingencies - including Revivify (which is easy), have a tinfoil hat and a raven familiar (which is easy; what else other than a hummingbird are you going to have as a familiar, if you have one at all?), have Heart of Stone active (which is easy), have Greater Ironguard up (which is easy), or one of dozens of other things which can totally mess up your day.

There are many ways a wizard can run away and survive to fight another day. That's not quite the same as an outright "win".


Why avoid using magic?

At first it was the challenge---I was thinking about the rules in a dead magic world. But then I realized it worked better than I expected. I don't imagine this build as something that defeats a well-prepared wizard, but it does seem like the kind that can peskily and very persistently interfere with plans, surviving far longer than is reasonable. It's certainly capable of handing just about any monster it's ass in very short order. And if the wizard slips up: BAM.

I'm sure a real fighter v. wizard contest is very DM dependent.


Really, defensive stacking is fairly pointless. Get as many defenses as you can afford but focus on the alpha. You want as many means to act out of turn order and act fast as possible and as difficult-to-block an offense as possible.

My belief here is that there is adequate damage potential and adequate defenses, so the real goal becomes penetrating opposed defenses. The AMF is potentially very powerful there, as is hiding, movement, spot, and initiative.



Here's an example of a Mage Slayer I used long ago in a Wizard vs. Fighter arena fight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4439795);


That's nice and you clearly put much more thought into the equipment than I did. It looks like a Mailman with true strike can get a high odds kill. The use of a harpoon is appealing---a harpoon with AMF on it could be fun for dealing with a wizard. White Raven Tactics is the weaker version of Island in Time.



A mundane's best tools are stealth (stealth skills are difficult to hardcounter with magic) and strong offense, at range and in melee, preferably at high initiative counts. Focus on abusing any mistakes they might do, not being near immortal.

This seems like good advice which I followed except for adding in defense. Very little gets through AMF+high touch AC+high Reflex save+flight. The biggest spell-based vulnerability I can come up with off-hand is conjured creatures, and we can kill many of them, particularly with good defense.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You asked about how a wizard could place a wall of force in position to close off a box, when the spell says the walls have to be vertical.

Vertical is relative.

There's nothing in the RAW defining vertical which means we have to fall back on the english language definition for the word.

Definition 2b of websters dictionary defines vertical as, "at a right angle to the plane of the supporting surface."

The supporting surface, in this case, is one of the other walls of force.

:smallbiggrin:

[animewatcha]

Forgive me, but what is this tinfoil hat trick thing? *still reading the walls of text*

[Kelb_Panthera]

Forgive me, but what is this tinfoil hat trick thing? *still reading the walls of text*

You take a hollow lead cone 5 ft in diameter and a bit taller than your character, hit it with shrink object, followed by permanency, then wear it as a hat. When you're subjected to an antimagic field. The 'hat' turns back into a conic structure around you. This blocks line of effect from the antimagic field's source, meaning that you are no longer subject to the AMF and can teleport away, or otherwise make preperations to deal with whatever is outside your conic shelter.

[Togo]

You take a hollow lead cone 5 ft in diameter and a bit taller than your character, hit it with shrink object, followed by permanency, then wear it as a hat. When you're subjected to an antimagic field. The 'hat' turns back into a conic structure around you. This blocks line of effect from the antimagic field's source, meaning that you are no longer subject to the AMF and can teleport away, or otherwise make preperations to deal with whatever is outside your conic shelter.

While it's a lovely idea, it does assume a number of things - that your head will be aligned with the land surface, which will be roughly flat, that you are standing reasonably still with your arms down, and so on. Otherwise the cone just falls over when it appears. Even assuming all that you end up with a really really thin cone (hence tinfoil), or a very very heavy hat.

There's a phrase that came up once during this kind of discussion - 'Player fiat'. It's just like DM fiat (this works because I say it works) except it's used by players spinning a plan for their character without factoring in the DM. Plans like the tinfoil hat, astrally projecting from a distant dimension, and so on, rely quite heavily on player fiat to work. That's not to say that they won't work, but simply that you're ignoring a lot that could reasonably go wrong.

[2xMachina]

Best AMF fighter? Persist Cheater of Mystra. All pre-buffs before battle, all out smashing in battle.

[Eldariel]

That's nice and you clearly put much more thought into the equipment than I did. It looks like a Mailman with true strike can get a high odds kill. The use of a harpoon is appealing---a harpoon with AMF on it could be fun for dealing with a wizard. White Raven Tactics is the weaker version of Island in Time.

Well, the key difference is that Island in Time is an immediate action which raises it to a whole different sphere of utility; not so much being able to take extra actions but being a super-Celerity that doesn't cost you your next turn or even immediate action. It's kind of the ultimate form of active defense, which is why I went with it; it allows trumping most of a mage's action trumps to be able to peak out the action chart.


The principal issue I see with your build is the reliance on Precision damage (Heart of X-series for instance grants the enemy immunity, as does Greater Fortifications or an appropriate type or any number of forms of Critical-immunity). Surely you could at least fit Penetrating Strike in there somewhere? I can't see it dealing 1000+ damage a turn without precision, nor beating things a Wizard can Gate in (a level 20 Wizard has access to Mature Adult Force Dragon (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/dragonEpic.htm#forceDragon) or LeShay (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/leshay.htm) for instance). I think the offense does need to be brushed up a bit, or rather made less reliant on SA (or somehow guarantee SA to crit immune opponents but it's hard in any case). Also, there should be some To hit steroids available.

A simple basic charger shell would help a lot on this front for instance. That's what I use with the Eternal Blade Archer; Feathered Wings Graft (never fail saves thanks to Moment of Perfect Mind), Pounce from Barbarian, Leading the Charge stance, Bounding Assault maneuver (available through Eternal Training), Power Attack and a two-handed weapon (shoulda been +1 Valorous; yet another oversight on my part). Mobile, efficient means of full attacking. Fitting Shock Trooper and Leap Attack would of course be dandy but with the AC-focus, Shock Trooper might be risky. Still, it would give a decent backup source of damage for Crit Immunes.

Also, surely there are superior True Mind Switch targets than Kelvazu if playing on that level.


I'm also not sure Anti-Magic Manacles are optimal. I personally used Anti-Magic Torc so I have access to an AMF should I want it but that I'm not shackled by it when I do not wish for it (such as when rolling Initiative; beating Moment of Prescience without Moment of Prescience on is rough).

I also had the basic controller shell with reach weapon, Thicket of Blades & Mage Slayer available, which can be incredibly useful if you do penetrate a mage's defenses but don't have anything left; it's not very high expense so mayhap some source of forced AoOs?

[Flickerdart]

Not many things have a touch AC of 26.
It's not terribly difficult to get enough touch AC if the wizard in question wanted to, but he'll also be decked out in various illusions and miss chances that you have no way of piercing.


There's enough overkill to deal with the typical precision-immune wizard.
How so? Without precision and flat-footed damage (Foresight, dire tortoise, divinations, touchsight, Mindsight, etc - even just being out of 30 ft range shuts down a lot of your stuff) you deal like 20 damage per shot at best. And then your strategy is to come even closer and try to handcuff them, which means most of the time you won't even have that first shot before being torn to pieces.

[Hirax]

Shapechange and scintillating scales are both trivial to get to last all day, and are an easy way to get a touch AC way north of 26. One of the best shapechange forms due to their dual actions ability already, chronotyryns also get 22 natural armor and 21 dex, for a quick and easy all day touch ac of 37. Bite of the werebear can rocket that further. So yeah, you need way more to to-hit bonuses. If we get to assume the wizard gets to do even a minimal amount of optimization, let alone the amount of dumpster diving you've done, this falls flat pretty quickly.

[Togo]

I prefer a Master of Many Forms based build for my mage-slaying needs. Use the wildshape ranger ACF, pick a few feats to get the right range of abilities, pick up the right items, and you're in with a decent chance of taking down most wizards. It works less well at the very highest levels, of course, but even then I'd have thought you stand a chance, depending of the levels of rules exploitation involved.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While it's a lovely idea, it does assume a number of things - that your head will be aligned with the land surface, which will be roughly flat, that you are standing reasonably still with your arms down, and so on. Otherwise the cone just falls over when it appears. Even assuming all that you end up with a really really thin cone (hence tinfoil), or a very very heavy hat.

There's a phrase that came up once during this kind of discussion - 'Player fiat'. It's just like DM fiat (this works because I say it works) except it's used by players spinning a plan for their character without factoring in the DM. Plans like the tinfoil hat, astrally projecting from a distant dimension, and so on, rely quite heavily on player fiat to work. That's not to say that they won't work, but simply that you're ignoring a lot that could reasonably go wrong.

Shrink object has a "cloth like" option for the cones consistency in hat form. As for where it lands when it falls, that's why A) cone and B) 5ft diameter instead of slightly wider than the character.
It'll rough you up some when it turns back into a big metal cone, but it'll be alot nicer than the guy trying to kill you.

The odds that you'll have your head tilited far enough to get the cones center of gravity outside of its base isn't very good, anyway. I can see a DM just saying "no, that doesn't work," but even with in-world logic it's a solid trick. It also explains the stereotypical conic hat wizards are often depicted with.

If you're really perterbed by the acute cone, make it an obtuse one, that is to say one whose base is wider in diameter than the cone is tall. Then it's almost impossible to have it land at an angle that doesn't drop it on its base.

The RAW is clear on the cone resuming full-size in the AMF. It'd be trivially easy for a person who understands how these things work to arrange it so the cone almost always lands in the right position.

TBH, it doesn't even strike me as being a cheesy trick. It seems like exactly the kind of thing that a wizard who's heard horror stories about AMF's would concoct.

Dead magic zones are exceedingly dangerous. You walk in, the cone drops, and you're trapped unless one of your BSF buddies can lift the thing high enough for you to crawl out.

Being upside down, or on a plane with no ground for the cone to fall on both negate the trick entirely. It's solid, but don't expect it to be the ultimate anti-AMF trick.

[Anthrowhale]

Shapechange and scintillating scales are both trivial to get to last all day, and are an easy way to get a touch AC way north of 26. One of the best shapechange forms due to their dual actions ability already, chronotyryns also get 22 natural armor and 21 dex, for a quick and easy all day touch ac of 37. Bite of the werebear can rocket that further. So yeah, you need way more to to-hit bonuses. If we get to assume the wizard gets to do even a minimal amount of optimization, let alone the amount of dumpster diving you've done, this falls flat pretty quickly.

The nature of the challenge doesn't seem to be getting across. If the goal is survival for the wizard, then he can plane shift out and this build simply cannot follow. Even if the wizard wants to hange around at long distance for some reason, it can use Ray Deflection or Friendly Fire to achieve immunity from ranged weapons.

So, the challenging things isn't wizard survival, but rather finding an appropriate can opener. How does a wizard defeat (not merely survive) this build? Yes, an Initiate of Mystra can do it, but can anything else?


It's not terribly difficult to get enough touch AC if the wizard in question wanted to, but he'll also be decked out in various illusions and miss chances that you have no way of piercing.


AMF is very effective at dealing with just about all magical defenses.


which means most of the time you won't even have that first shot before being torn to pieces.

Tear away. How do you plan to do it?

Eladriel's Mature Adult Force Dragon looks potentially effective---the touch AC is only 18, so initiative is of critical importance. The LeShay's very nice weapons are deeply nerfed by the AMF making it such a combat potentially survuvable.

[Eldariel]

Eladriel's Mature Adult Force Dragon looks potentially effective---the touch AC is only 18, so initiative is of critical importance. The LeShay's very nice weapons are deeply nerfed by the AMF making it such a combat potentially survuvable.

Mature Adult Force Dragons come, as a rule, with Scintillating Scales though so unless you can suppress defensive spells on their person (they cast as epic casters after all), it'll actually have 67 Touch AC. It's too big to fit into an AMF so suppressing its defenses can be tricky.

That said, those were just random examples. Gate, in general, is going to cause serious issues. Just about any creature 50 HD or lower is available to most level 20 Wizards (and Clerics) with a single spell for Caster Level Rounds/Level. I do believe you should brush up your offense in that regard. Like I suggested earlier, some kind of a rudimentary charger shell could be exceedingly useful for reliable non-precision damage.

[Flickerdart]

So, the challenging things isn't wizard survival, but rather finding an appropriate can opener. How does a wizard defeat (not merely survive) this build? Yes, an Initiate of Mystra can do it, but can anything else?
Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless I missed something. I think the built character is actually wearing the AMF shackles to get himself an always on 5ft amf. If I'm wrong about that, then he's screwed before he gets started.

[Flickerdart]

Oh, I see. So his build isn't even useful from 30 feet away, but needs to stand adjacent to a caster. And then use ranged attacks.

[Hirax]

Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

This is what I'm getting so far too. edit: maw of chaos is probably the easiest way to nuke the build. Not seeing anything that allows you to get out of the way quickly enough, and a maximize rod is all that's needed to get it to one shot you in a low op setting, or CL pumping in higher op. Also, I meant to say that scintillating scales and shapechange would be active all day, and not in response to anything or as an alternative to plane shifting.

[Eldariel]

This is what I'm getting so far too. edit: maw of chaos is probably the easiest way to nuke the build. Not seeing anything that allows you to get out of the way quickly enough, and a maximize rod is all that's needed to get it to one shot you in a low op setting, or CL pumping in higher op. Also, I meant to say that scintillating scales and shapechange would be active all day, and not in response to anything or as an alternative to plane shifting.

Maw is SR: Yes so AMF does counter that at least.

[Togo]

The odds that you'll have your head tilited far enough to get the cones center of gravity outside of its base isn't very good, anyway. I can see a DM just saying "no, that doesn't work," but even with in-world logic it's a solid trick. It also explains the stereotypical conic hat wizards are often depicted with.

:smallconfused:Unless you're surrendering your dex bonus, you're assumed to be dodging and weaving constantly. People who fight don't keep their heads level. Watch a sword fight on film, and you'll see what I mean.

And it doesn't matter about the centre of gravity so much as whether it hits the wearer on the way down. Anything but a near-perfectly level cone is going to hit nose, shoulders, arms held objects etc. on the way down, deflecting either it or the wearer. The weight won't be taken on the ground until the cone has expanded to higher than you are, meaning that you'll be driven to the ground, and knocked prone, at which point the cone as likely to land on your legs.


If you're really perterbed by the acute cone, make it an obtuse one, that is to say one whose base is wider in diameter than the cone is tall. Then it's almost impossible to have it land at an angle that doesn't drop it on its base.

Even here, is it landing before the attacker gets under it? The cone is changing altitude, meaning it's a falling object from a stationary start.

And when it lands, it is landing on a bowling green? Even on something as smooth as a grassy park you're going to get inch-wide gaps around the base, which is all you need for the AMF field to get in and negate the defence. On a more typical battlefield, which may include shrubs, uneven ground, furniture, stalactites, or other obstructions, getting a 5' diameter object to lie flush with the ground is almost impossible. Even the attacker sticking his foot under it as it falls is enough to negate the defence completely.

[Togo]

Your plan relies on walking up to a 20th level wizard undetected and then putting handcuffs on them. With no UMD or anything, even. How doesn't a wizard defeat this build?

Well that's the question, isn't it? Can the wizard counter it, with what, and can that counter be countered?

I'm broadly happy with the idea that a well-played wizard can counter any attack. I'm not convinced that the wizard can counter every attack. Most of the counters involve spells, and every tactic that is dismissed with 'well I could cast a spell to get rid of that' is one less spell that the wizard can use for anything else.

A theoretical wizard defeating a theoretical attack is easy. A particular wizard being simultaneously prepared for every possible attack that anyone can ever think of is another proposition. I reckon the number of ideas is higher than the number of spells per day.

[Eldariel]

Well that's the question, isn't it? Can the wizard counter it, with what, and can that counter be countered?

I'm broadly happy with the idea that a well-played wizard can counter any attack. I'm not convinced that the wizard can counter every attack. Most of the counters involve spells, and every tactic that is dismissed with 'well I could cast a spell to get rid of that' is one less spell that the wizard can use for anything else.

A theoretical wizard defeating a theoretical attack is easy. A particular wizard being simultaneously prepared for every possible attack that anyone can ever think of is another proposition. I reckon the number of ideas is higher than the number of spells per day.

This is not true at high levels. Shapechange and Gate alone defeat basically any encounter possible; and Shapechange is basically an infinite resource since you can keep changing. Also, if, somehow, there's an encounter the Wizard cannot handle, his defensive Contingency designed to Teleport him away is an all-purpose defense, combined with downtime Divinations of course.

Here, the question isn't even about that tho. We're trying to get next to a Wizard so we'll probably have to act first (otherwise, y'know, Time Stop + Gate some things + enjoy the fireworks ways away/another plane/whatever). 27 Initiative, while impressive, hardly matches up to magic-assisted Initiative a Wizard can possess; Moment of Prescience alone is +25. Further, Contingency and Celerity provide extremely impressive defenses out of turn order, particularly if something akin to the lines of Foresight is active.


The fundamental issue with a Wizard isn't even winning an arena-style fight with one (which is difficult enough as it stands) but even getting to an arena-style fight to begin with.

[Flickerdart]

Well that's the question, isn't it? Can the wizard counter it, with what, and can that counter be countered?
Ok, let's break this down.

1) Strategic distance. Even if the Wizard has a sweet bod by nature, and scorns shapechange, he's still on a Phantom Steed that's going 240ft per round, i.e. over three times your speed. If he's shapechanging, he's a dragon and going faster, or he's gated in a dragon and going faster. You have no way to enter effective range unless he wants you to, and in the sky, you can't hide even with Darkstalker because there's no cover.

2) Tactical distance. If the Wizard is not a Dire Tortoise, nor has Foresight up, nor has Moment of Prescience, nor a Contingency for when combat starts, then maybe you go first. Maybe. At this point, you are at least 100 feet away (Mindsight) if not more (only DC10 spot check to see you at 100 feet away, trivial). So you have, at best, enough movement for a single move and then a single attack, since attacking from beyond 30 feet for you is useless. You cannot close fast enough to use the manacles.

3) Attacking. 100% fortification is trivial to get even if the wizard isn't immune to crits through other means, so the precision damage is out. There's no way in hell you're getting him flat-footed, so the iaijutsu damage is out. You have no way to pierce basic illusionary defenses (even a simple cloak of Displacement or an immediate-action Greater Mirror Image) and everything aside from your best attack bonus might as well not exist. Even if you somehow manage a full attack (Belt of Battle, perhaps?) you're not doing enough damage to take him down.

4) Manacles. What exactly is your tactic for getting these on? I'm not seeing any way this can work.

So, in short, your tactic is countered with the same things that counter other mundane fighters, except they're actually competent at other things.

[Anthrowhale]

Mature Adult Force Dragons come, as a rule, with Scintillating Scales though so unless you can suppress defensive spells on their person (they cast as epic casters after all), it'll actually have 67 Touch AC. It's too big to fit into an AMF so suppressing its defenses can be tricky.


Ok, that says no long range attacks. The viable attack form is then getting next to it and shredding the chunk that is inside the AMF. That portion has touch AC 2 and DR 0, so it's shredding time.

Gate does seem effective in general though, since the dragon has at least a fair chance of getting a few attacks in before death. Note however that you can only control level*2 HD = 40 HD for most wizard/cleric builds. Getting an extra +5 to caster level isn't terribly difficult---archmage can do it.

W.r.t. the cone discussion, I think any cone has to fall off center in practice, because the AMF doesn't simultaneously hit the entire cone. Instead there is a moment when it hits half the cone and the other half remains a cloth hat.


Unless I missed something. I think the built character is actually wearing the AMF shackles to get himself an always on 5ft amf. If I'm wrong about that, then he's screwed before he gets started.

I was imagining always wearing the shackles.



The principal issue I see with your build is the reliance on Precision damage


Note that all magical forms of precision immunity disappear in the AMF. And, again, magical immunity to ranged attacks when more than 5' away is even more effective than precision immunity.



Surely you could at least fit Penetrating Strike in there somewhere?


The Rogue ACF? It's tempting, but I don't fully see the necessity. Magic capable opponents are immune to ranged attacks, and incapable of resisting precision within the AMF.



Also, there should be some To hit steroids available.


Maximum to-hit is +32. +26 comes from Rapid shot and Two with One blow.



A simple basic charger shell would help a lot on this front for instance.
[/QOUTE]

I'm not convinced yet, because the character can already double move to get close, then white raven tactics to destroy things within the AMF. What is a good example of precision immunity to fear within an AMF? Also note that Iajutsu Focus is not precision damage and there are skill tricks to achieve Flat-footed.

[QUOTE=Eldariel;13684822]
Also, surely there are superior True Mind Switch targets than Kelvazu if playing on that level.
[/QOUTE]

Like what? Medium or smaller is required for the AMF to effect opponents and high Dex is of critical importance for AC and Init. I also considered Brachina (Nine Hells), Rilmani Cuprilach (Fiend Folio). and Petal (MMII).

[QUOTE=Eldariel;13684822]
I'm also not sure Anti-Magic Manacles are optimal.


The fear here was that I wouldn't have a chance to trigger the AMF when needed. Also, spending money on things that work inside of an AMF is often different from spending money on things that work outside of an AMF, so optimizing for both situations is difficult.



I also had the basic controller shell with reach weapon, Thicket of Blades & Mage Slayer available, which can be incredibly useful if you do penetrate a mage's defenses but don't have anything left

The theory here was that just keeping the mage inside the AMF via Thicket of Blades + Stand Still was adequate. Mage Slayer is potentially nice, especially against large+ spellcasters, but coming up with 3 feats for it is difficult.

[Anthrowhale]

1) Strategic distance.


Granted, nothing we can do there.



2) Tactical distance. If the Wizard is not a Dire Tortoise, nor has Foresight up, nor has Moment of Prescience, nor a Contingency for when combat starts, then maybe you go first.


These are less effective than apparently imagined. Foresight avoids surprise at range, but it isn't effective at avoiding flat-footed within the AMF. Moment of Prescience gives a up to +25 to initiative, somewhat less than the +27 this build has. What trigger did you want for Contingency?

The Dire Tortoise seems valid at least, although it's easy to imagine a wizard not always wanting to be a Dire Tortoise as the form is inconvenient in many ways.



Maybe. At this point, you are at least 100 feet away (Mindsight) if not more (only DC10 spot check to see you at 100 feet away, trivial).


I tweaked the build to use feathered wings, implying that a double move is 240 or a run is 480. Beating a 24+44+1d20 spot check doesn't seem so trivial to me. A persistomancer could do it, but otherwise I don't see a valid approach.



You cannot close fast enough to use the manacles.


I disagree here. How do you plan to beat the 68+1d20 spot check from range 240?



3) Attacking. 100% fortification is trivial to get even if the wizard isn't immune to crits through other means, so the precision damage is out. There's no way in hell you're getting him flat-footed, so the iaijutsu damage is out. You have no way to pierce basic illusionary defenses (even a simple cloak of Displacement or an immediate-action Greater Mirror Image) and everything aside from your best attack bonus might as well not exist. Even if you somehow manage a full attack (Belt of Battle, perhaps?) you're not doing enough damage to take him down.


I disagree with just about everything here. How do you plan to get fortification?

The attack sequence looks like:
(1) (Strategic) Sneak into range 240'
(2) (Tactical) Win initiative, double move adjacent stripping all magical defenses from wizard, white raven tactics (self)
(3) 10' step through the wizard's space with DC 40 tumble check (Oriental Adventures) initiating acrobatic backstab (Complete Scoundrel).
(4) Insert 10 daggers with full sneak attack and IF into mage overkilling by a factor of lots.
(5) If the wizard somehow survives, use Stand Still to keep him in the AMF and repeat step 4 for the next 9 rounds.



4) Manacles. What exactly is your tactic for getting these on? I'm not seeing any way this can work.


Manacles are used on the build, not on the wizard, so they start "on".



So, in short, your tactic is countered with the same things that counter other mundane fighters, except they're actually competent at other things.

If you take the time to take into account the AMF properly, you'll see many standard fighter counters not working as outlined above. And, you still have only worried about defense not offense. To win, you need an offense.

[Eldariel]

I'm not convinced yet, because the character can already double move to get close, then white raven tactics to destroy things within the AMF. What is a good example of precision immunity to fear within an AMF? Also note that Iajutsu Focus is not precision damage and there are skill tricks to achieve Flat-footed.

Any type-based immunities. Lich, Necropolitan, etc. (Undead type is immune to criticals) Elementals, Plants, Oozes & Constructs also share these immunities (a Warforged could have the inherent fortifications on Crit Immunity levels with feats for instance). Of course, if we're playing on a level where body swapping is commonplace, a Wizard could easily be Magic Jar'd into a Golem (basically chaining Magic Jars and breaking the earlier ones in the chain can make for a permanent Magic Jar) for instance; or True Mind Switched into...anything of course.

Also, it's worth noting that by strict RAW only a creature immersed in an AMF is affected by it so while sensibly this would work, by strict RAW anything larger than Medium would be unaffected by an AMF this small. That makes anything Shapechanged for instance a hard target. Of course, this build has the same fundamental problem as all other mundane mage slayers; in the macro fight, a Wizard's information gathering, mobility and initiation capabilities completely eclipse yours. So if you antagonize a mage, chances of you finding him instead of him finding you, you being prepared instead of him being prepared, you getting the first round, etc. are slim.


Also, Contingencies and Celerity seem to remain problems; Foresight lets a Wizard act out of turn order and cast Celerity which allows him to interrupt your turn at any point, including before you get next to him with the AMF. Contingency or crafted contingent spells can likewise teleport him out of the AMF range (I always have a contingency vs. AMF unless all my contingencies are free action activatable and I'm never flat-footed á la Foresight).

And of course, this only works on the actual Wizard; Astral Projections, Projected Images and other means of operating in places where you actually aren't are major problems.

[Kelb_Panthera]

:smallconfused:Unless you're surrendering your dex bonus, you're assumed to be dodging and weaving constantly. People who fight don't keep their heads level. Watch a sword fight on film, and you'll see what I mean.

And it doesn't matter about the centre of gravity so much as whether it hits the wearer on the way down. Anything but a near-perfectly level cone is going to hit nose, shoulders, arms held objects etc. on the way down, deflecting either it or the wearer. The weight won't be taken on the ground until the cone has expanded to higher than you are, meaning that you'll be driven to the ground, and knocked prone, at which point the cone as likely to land on your legs.



Even here, is it landing before the attacker gets under it? The cone is changing altitude, meaning it's a falling object from a stationary start.

And when it lands, it is landing on a bowling green? Even on something as smooth as a grassy park you're going to get inch-wide gaps around the base, which is all you need for the AMF field to get in and negate the defence. On a more typical battlefield, which may include shrubs, uneven ground, furniture, stalactites, or other obstructions, getting a 5' diameter object to lie flush with the ground is almost impossible. Even the attacker sticking his foot under it as it falls is enough to negate the defence completely.

You're missing some relevant game rules here.

First, AMF is an emenation, not a spread. It doesn't go around corners. So even if the gap was big enough for line of effect into the cone (see point 2) it would only effect the wizards feet. A quick hop as he casts teleport would negate that if it were an issue.

Second, line of effect is blocked for a square unless the intervening barrier has a gap of at least one square foot, paraphrased from PHB pg 176.

As for the idea of the cone falling on the wizard because his head isn't perfectly level, okay. So he takes a 1d6 of bludgeoning damage from his tinfoil hat and gets knocked on his ass in the process. I bet that'll hurt less than stabby mcfighter's sword. Though that ruling would be a house rule since the cone is falling less than the 10ft required to do damage as a falling object. Nevermind that the transformation is instantaneous.

There's nothing in shrink object that suggests that the shrinking takes any time at all. The spell description does have a clause about being able to unshrink the object on command though. What's to stop our wizard friend from just popping his lead teepee before the enemy ever gets within range for AMF or an attack?

As for ducking, dodging, and weaving in a fight. You don't generally start with the fancy stuff while the enemy is still 10ft away. Thanks to AMF's AoE your tinfoil hat drops before the enemy can make an attack, unless he's using a reach weapon. Then maybe he gets a single thrust. That's not alot of maneuvering.

You do have a point about the wizard sharing his space with an obstacle for the cone to fall on. Though, how often does that happen really? Nevermind the cone being made of lead means that at an inch thick it will weigh several hundred pounds, crushing any but the sturdiest of such obstacles.

Edit: I did the math, a cone 5ft wide at its base by 6ft tall and 1in thick will weigh roughly 3075 pounds, and that's a low-ball estimate. I've never seen a shrub that could have a ton-and-a-half of metal dropped on it, and not be utterly crushed.

You don't like the tinfoil hat trick. I can empathize with that. It's not perfect, but by both RAW and RAMS it will work in many, many games; in most situations.

[Rubik]

AMF is very effective at dealing with just about all magical defenses.The tinfoil hat still works, as does Contingency, if you word it right. Also, being astrally projected will do it, since you'll just be shunted back to your body so long as your projection is located wherever the AMF is. Good luck with trying to figure out how to deal with that one.

[Anthrowhale]

Any type-based immunities. Lich, Necropolitan, etc. (Undead type is immune to criticals) Elementals, Plants, Oozes & Constructs also share these immunities (a Warforged could have the inherent fortifications on Crit Immunity levels with feats for instance). Of course, if we're playing on a level where body swapping is commonplace, a Wizard could easily be Magic Jar'd into a Golem (basically chaining Magic Jars and breaking the earlier ones in the chain can make for a permanent Magic Jar) for instance; or True Mind Switched into...anything of course.


Warforged improved fortification looks sound. That still leaves ~42 damage/hit which is nonprecision (including IF). It seems like 10 hits doing ~420 damage should be adequate? And remember: surviving one round doesn't help much if the wizard can't move away.

I hadn't seen chained Magic Jars before. If I understand correctly, you magic jar into A, then magic jar into B, then move A's body out of range of the first magic jar, destroy magic jar A killing host A, then end magic jar B, shifting back into host A. But True Mind Switch seems generally superior because you get the Ex abilities.



Also, it's worth noting that by strict RAW only a creature immersed in an AMF is affected by it so while sensibly this would work, by strict RAW anything larger than Medium would be unaffected by an AMF this small.


RAW goes the other way as far as I can tell. The AMF description at the end states that only portions of creatures not in the AMF are unaffected by the AMF. Consequently, when you encounter a human shapechanged into a dragon and it tries to bite you all portions of the head entering the AMF convert into a human head.



in the macro fight, a Wizard's information gathering, mobility and initiation capabilities completely eclipse yours. So if you antagonize a mage, chances of you finding him instead of him finding you, you being prepared instead of him being prepared, you getting the first round, etc. are slim.


Granted. Not needing to sleep/eat/meditate/pray/study helps here to some extent: at least it's not a cake walk.



Also, Contingencies and Celerity seem to remain problems; Foresight lets a Wizard act out of turn order and cast Celerity which allows him to interrupt your turn at any point, including before you get next to him with the AMF. Contingency or crafted contingent spells can likewise teleport him out of the AMF range (I always have a contingency vs. AMF unless all my contingencies are free action activatable and I'm never flat-footed á la Foresight).


Ah, I see: I was wrong to think that flat-footed was irrelevant at a distance because immediate actions can be used when not flat-footed. This gives me a better appreciation of Island in Time. Too bad it's incompatible with AMF. This means the only way to win initiative is sneak to adjacent, which is either impossible (if the DM interprets Lifesight as Ex or the wizard is a persistomancer jacking spot to infinity) or merely difficult (if the DM interprets Lifesight as Su and the wizard just maximizes spot ranks).



And of course, this only works on the actual Wizard; Astral Projections, Projected Images and other means of operating in places where you actually aren't are major problems.

The interaction of AMF and Astral projection appears interesting: as far as I can tell, the created body blinks out and the wizard is stuck in suspended animation indefinitely.

[Anthrowhale]

...since you'll just be shunted back to your body so long as your projection is located wherever the AMF is.

AMF doesn't end Astral Projection so it doesn't trigger the end clause. Instead, the wizard's real body should be stuck in suspended hibernation.

This brings up an interesting plot: find the wizard's body before all of his friends manage to knock me off this spot.

Edit: I've heard of the tinfoil hat before, but I agree with "player fiat" which seems like a good concept. Make a decision: Does falling occur instantly or in the ~0.6 seconds that we expect in 1g?

Let's say "instantly". Then the moment the AMF intersects the edge of the hat, that portion of the hat will convert to a significant mass, pulling it off the head. Since this is instantaneous, it will pull more of the hat into the AMF, resulting in a cascading interaction where it lands either beside or on your feet, typically on it's side.

Let's say 0.6 seconds. In this case a character moving 30' in 6 seconds can grapple before the fall completes. Enjoying the cone with an AMF and stabby fighter on the inside isn't much fun. An even faster fighter can, plausibly even knock the wizard clear out from under the hat via bull rush (enjoy the strength check!).

You might complain that I'm making up rules, but falling time is not specified in the rules, so it's handling is up to DM interpretation. I don't think we should discuss DM interpretation if we can avoid it.

[Togo]

This is not true at high levels. Shapechange and Gate alone defeat basically any encounter possible;

They're very good options, they're hardly unbeatable options.


and Shapechange is basically an infinite resource since you can keep changing.

Assuming the effect isn't surpressed or dispelled, which is a fairly common approach.


Also, if, somehow, there's an encounter the Wizard cannot handle, his defensive Contingency designed to Teleport him away is an all-purpose defense, combined with downtime Divinations of course.

Yeeess. But that depends on what the purpose of the fight is. If the purpose is to gain control of a site at a particular time, the wizard's just lost the fight. I'm broadly happy with the idea that fighting someone who can teleport away and plot dire revenge is a bad idea, but that covers an awful lot of character, not to mention a fair chunck of the monster manual. It's not a specific problem to Tier 1 casters.


The fundamental issue with a Wizard isn't even winning an arena-style fight with one (which is difficult enough as it stands) but even getting to an arena-style fight to begin with.

Well sure. This is a game of adventuring parties. What a character can achieve all by themselves is only really relevent in a contrived duel, or if your party is seriously disfunctional in some way. That's why we have single character versus single character for no reason, a wizard that's casting multiple 9th level spells on an unknown opponent, etc. etc.

[Togo]

You're missing some relevant game rules here.

First, AMF is an emenation, not a spread. It doesn't go around corners. So even if the gap was big enough for line of effect into the cone (see point 2) it would only effect the wizards feet. A quick hop as he casts teleport would negate that if it were an issue.

And arguably illegal, since you're moving out of an AoE, and you can't spell cast during a move unless you have the feat for it. I suspect most DMs (including me) would allow it.


Second, line of effect is blocked for a square unless the intervening barrier has a gap of at least one square foot, paraphrased from PHB pg 176.

Good point, I was mixing up the limit on line of effect with the limit on emenations.

Of course, a small gap would still allow someone to stick their toe into is, and if you agree than an emenation comes from all parts of the body, a toe past the barrier would still get the wizard covered by the AMF.

As would sundering it, of course, which is more or less problematical depending on level.


As for the idea of the cone falling on the wizard because his head isn't perfectly level, okay. So he takes a 1d6 of bludgeoning damage from his tinfoil hat and gets knocked on his ass in the process.

Not the point. The point is that hitting something on the way down means it isn't falling flat any more. And that he might end up pinned, with a body part under the rim. There are rules for getting hit by falling debries, but I'm not convinced they're the best for an object that has such a specific shape.


There's nothing in shrink object that suggests that the shrinking takes any time at all. The spell description does have a clause about being able to unshrink the object on command though. What's to stop our wizard friend from just popping his lead teepee before the enemy ever gets within range for AMF or an attack?

If you do it during your turn as a standard action, then nothing, but that's much less useful, since you're not trying to change the action economy. If you mean that you consider it a free action, I'd be a little dubious. There are a lot of command word activated effects that aren't free actions, and if it isn't free (or immediate) then you're relying on the AMF to activate it during an opponent's action.

I'd also note that ruling that a shrunk item can change instaneously during someone else's turn, so fast that it can't be countered, is highly abusable. There's the shrink item cage trap, allowing you to trap any monster in a cage simply by creating it around him instaneously, the shrink item platform shoes, allowing you to attack people at any hight, and of course, the shrink item linear accelerator, allowing you reusable orbital launch capability. :smalltongue:

The more traditional way of handling a barrier or AoE springing up is to allow a reflex saving throw to get to whichever side you want to. It's the classic 'blast doors' scenario. Allowing no reaction at all seems unduely harsh.


As for ducking, dodging, and weaving in a fight. You don't generally start with the fancy stuff while the enemy is still 10ft away.

Not indulding in the 'fancy stuff' is what the term 'flat footed' refers to. Your feet are flat on the ground, your stance is level and relaxed. The point is that the defense relies on the assumption that your hatline is perpendicular to ground at all times, and that's really quite an odd assumption.


Thanks to AMF's AoE your tinfoil hat drops before the enemy can make an attack, unless he's using a reach weapon. Then maybe he gets a single thrust. That's not alot of maneuvering.

Enough to get a lever under the cone to stop it falling flush with the ground though.


You do have a point about the wizard sharing his space with an obstacle for the cone to fall on. Though, how often does that happen really? Nevermind the cone being made of lead means that at an inch thick it will weigh several hundred pounds, crushing any but the sturdiest of such obstacles.

I'd say that flat, even ground, is almost unknown outside modern cities. If you're indoors, or in an arena, or on a beach, then you're in better shape. If you're on snow, you'll be fine in any case. Then again, D&D adventures feature vast smoothly built complexes, monsters that don't need feeding, and other oddities. Many DMs make everything flat so as not to bother with difficult ground. That's really down to the DM and style of gaming you're doing.


You don't like the tinfoil hat trick. I can empathize with that.

Erm... ascribing emotional motivations to another poster in place of the reasons they actually presented is an ad hominem attack. I realise you probably didn't intend it that way, but please please avoid.


It's not perfect, but by both RAW and RAMS it will work in many, many games; in most situations.

I love the trick. Mind you, I also like the troll telegraph, the shrink item orbital relay, junk bond financed dungeon exploration, and stealth heliograph arrays justified through the spot skill system. I've seen it ruled impractical too many times to rely on it though.

[Togo]

Ok, let's break this down.

Ok, some good points here. We need a character who is faster, doen't rely on precision damage, or ranged attacks from 30', ideally has some kind of hiding ability, and a way to get the manacles on the target.

You didn't mention how you would get immunity to crits, which might be important, as there are many way of getting around crit immunity, depending on the method.

I'm not sure mindsight would work, though. Doesn't he have mind blank? Or are you relying on the 'devices and spells' clause to allow the feat to detect him?

[Anthrowhale]

It appears that the only effective attack the wizard has is Gating epic monsters. I hadn't really considered epic monsters previously, but if that's necessary, we can handle it.

Instead of mindswitch into a Kelvezu, Mindswitch into a LeShay. If you consider this a stretch, note that a LeShay is gatable, slow, and turns out to be particularly vulnerable to this build, because their very nice weapons are Supernatural. This switch necessitated several other systemic changes, most significantly dropping a level of Swashbuckler and picking up a level of Warblade for Uncanny Dodge. I also rejiggered feats, picking up Mage Slayer to encourage Large+ wizards that somehow survive adjacency to avoid spellcasting and dropping the flyby attacks in favor of combat expertise. The level of warblade also provides pouncing charge which I don't see how to use very effectively, but at least we have a pounce of some sort.

The net effect is significantly tougher: flat-footed touch AC 77 which increases to 93 using improved combat expertise. This fully deals with the proposed gate attacks, dropping the wizard back down to zero viable attacks.
Are there proposals for other viable attacks?

[Kelb_Panthera]

And arguably illegal, since you're moving out of an AoE, and you can't spell cast during a move unless you have the feat for it. I suspect most DMs (including me) would allow it.
It's irrelevant anyway, You're not in the aoe thanks to the loe rules.



Good point, I was mixing up the limit on line of effect with the limit on emenations.

Of course, a small gap would still allow someone to stick their toe into is, and if you agree than an emenation comes from all parts of the body, a toe past the barrier would still get the wizard covered by the AMF.
and get your toe hacked off by a wizards trusty dagger.

As would sundering it, of course, which is more or less problematical depending on level.This is a valid concern. Lead's hardness isn't very good and at only an inch thick it won't take long to breach. This is one of the flaws in the trick.




Not the point. The point is that hitting something on the way down means it isn't falling flat any more. And that he might end up pinned, with a body part under the rim. There are rules for getting hit by falling debris, but I'm not convinced they're the best for an object that has such a specific shape. They may not be terribly specific, but they're all we've got. The reason cone was chosen is because it will almost always fall onto its base when it lands at an angle. A particularly vindictive DM might demand a reflex save to avoid having a leg trapped, but that's DM fiat.




If you do it during your turn as a standard action, then nothing, but that's much less useful, since you're not trying to change the action economy. If you mean that you consider it a free action, I'd be a little dubious. There are a lot of command word activated effects that aren't free actions, and if it isn't free (or immediate) then you're relying on the AMF to activate it during an opponent's action. no gripes with this point.


I'd also note that ruling that a shrunk item can change instaneously during someone else's turn, so fast that it can't be countered, is highly abusable. There's the shrink item cage trap, allowing you to trap any monster in a cage simply by creating it around him instaneously, the shrink item platform shoes, allowing you to attack people at any hight, and of course, the shrink item linear accelerator, allowing you reusable orbital launch capability. :smalltongue:
I'm not familiar with these tricks, but theres nothing in the spell description that says it takes any time for the item to shrink when the spell is cast or unshrink when its duration expires.
If it shrinks
The more traditional way of handling a barrier or AoE springing up is to allow a reflex saving throw to get to whichever side you want to. It's the classic 'blast doors' scenario. Allowing no reaction at all seems unduely harsh. There's nothing in any of the wall spells that says an enemy adjacent to the wall when it's created gets a ref save to get on either side of the wall. Why should an enemy get a ref save to get into the magic cone that he likely had no idea was going to drop.




Not indulding in the 'fancy stuff' is what the term 'flat footed' refers to. Your feet are flat on the ground, your stance is level and relaxed. The point is that the defense relies on the assumption that your hatline is perpendicular to ground at all times, and that's really quite an odd assumption. It does no such thing. It only assumes that the hat's center of gravity is still above its base at the time the amf unshrinks it. That's up to about a 60º angle.




Enough to get a lever under the cone to stop it falling flush with the ground though. Not really, when a ton and a half drops on the haft of your weapon it's probably gonna force your hands to the ground. Sure you've got a lever under it, but do you have the str to lift that even with the lever, not even considering the counter leverage from the fact you're not lifting the cone straight up.




I'd say that flat, even ground, is almost unknown outside modern cities. If you're indoors, or in an arena, or on a beach, then you're in better shape. If you're on snow, you'll be fine in any case. Then again, D&D adventures feature vast smoothly built complexes, monsters that don't need feeding, and other oddities. Many DMs make everything flat so as not to bother with difficult ground. That's really down to the DM and style of gaming you're doing. even with minor obstacles for the cone to fall on, it'll still end up flush to the ground in most cases, it's more than heavy enough to crush most smaller obstacles, and if you're in the same square as an obstacle big enough to withstand that kind of weight, then yeah, it doesn't work quite as intended.




Erm... ascribing emotional motivations to another poster in place of the reasons they actually presented is an ad hominem attack. I realise you probably didn't intend it that way, but please please avoid. I, indeed, did not intend it as an attack. It was just the impression I was getting. I do apologize if I was mistaken.




I love the trick. Mind you, I also like the troll telegraph, the shrink item orbital relay, junk bond financed dungeon exploration, and stealth heliograph arrays justified through the spot skill system. I've seen it ruled impractical too many times to rely on it though.

I do agree that it's not a magic bullet, but it is a solid trick that shouldn't be dismissed lightly. Especially since it's something that's well enough known that many a caster will use it, regardless of its potential complications.

[Togo]

It appears that the only effective attack the wizard has is Gating epic monsters. I hadn't really considered epic monsters previously, but if that's necessary, we can handle it.


I prefer turning into a beholder and covering the gated creature with the antimagic ray. This won't send it home, but will surpress the mind control effect that makes it obey the caster. Then just make a quick diplomacy check to convince it to change sides, lend it a potion of prot evil, and then cover the wizard with the ray while he's killed by his own epic monster.

Using gate too often is very bad for your long term health anyway. It tends to offend powerful people. It's hard to imagine it as a 'first response' spell.

[Hirax]

Whoa, wait, the character isn't immune to weapon damage? Anyone persisting consumptive field just had an evilgasm and lost interest in what might have been a challenge before. Bite of the werebear, giant size and additional boosters for giggles.

[Anthrowhale]

Whoa, wait, the character isn't immune to weapon damage? Anyone persisting consumptive field just had an evilgasm and lost interest in what might have been a challenge before. Bite of the werebear, giant size and additional boosters for giggles.

If I understand correctly, the plan is to cast persistent consumptive field then fly around commonertown until you have Str 10000 or so, then attack using foresight+celerity to get the first action.

Can you do it without using an infinite loop exploit? I'll concede all known infinite power loop exploits.

[Anthrowhale]

I prefer turning into a beholder and covering the gated creature with the antimagic ray.

That seems quite elegant :-)

Readying an action to toss a potion of Protection from Evil into the mouth of a monster trying to bite might work for this build.

[candycorn]

Mage optimized to the same level:

Wizard 10 / Incantatrix 10

Lesser Tiefling.

Base Int 18, +2 Race, + 5 Level, +5 Inherent, +7000 enhancement (Persistent Power Leech (bovd) on a creature getting greater restoration every other round within an energy transformation field keyed to greater restoration, with a bound planar creature using abilities to charge the field)

Base All other stats: 8 + 7000 enhancement.

HP: Disgusting
Saves: Don't roll a 1.
Initiative: Win
DC of spells: You need a natural 20.

UMD a Staff with Disjunction (UMD caster level): Automatic 100% chance to destroy an AMF.
Follow with quickened charm person.
95% chance fight is over.

If fight is not over? Then you can try to hit the astral projection. Should you manage to kill it, you can deal with the next Astral Projection in an hour.

Paranoid wizards of equal level, optimized equally well, and played equally well, will never lose to a fighter.

If the circumstances are contrived so as to give the fighter a fair chance, then great. But you're not beating a wizard then. You're beating an artificially contrived challenge.

[Togo]

Whoa, wait, the character isn't immune to weapon damage? Anyone persisting consumptive field just had an evilgasm and lost interest in what might have been a challenge before. Bite of the werebear, giant size and additional boosters for giggles.

Depends on how many people you kill each day. Anything more than about 20-30 is getting unsustainable, and that's not enough to actually win in melee. Even 100 people a day is still only +50 damage.

Are our wizards protected against something as simple as dispel magic?

[Togo]

Mage optimized to the same level:

Wizard 10 / Incantatrix 10

Lesser Tiefling.

Base Int 18, +2 Race, + 5 Level, +5 Inherent, +7000 enhancement (Persistent Power Leech (bovd) on a creature getting greater restoration every other round within an energy transformation field keyed to greater restoration, with a bound planar creature using abilities to charge the field)

Base All other stats: 8 + 7000 enhancement.

HP: Disgusting
Saves: Don't roll a 1.
Initiative: Win
DC of spells: You need a natural 20.

UMD a Staff with Disjunction (UMD caster level): Automatic 100% chance to destroy an AMF.
Follow with quickened charm person.
95% chance fight is over.

If fight is not over?

Well if you were up against my candidate, then no, it's not over. I'm standing somewhere in a cloud of smoke that's 100' radius. Assuming you can target me at all, the disjunction won't clear the smoke, and the charm will have no apparent effect, even after the disjunction has gone off


Then you can try to hit the astral projection.

Or I can hit your astral cord with my silver sword, killing you instantly.
Good job I'm a githyanki, huh?



Paranoid wizards of equal level, optimized equally well, and played equally well, will never lose to a fighter.

Wait, who's playing with a fighter? We're just talking warrior-type mage killing builds here.

Depends on the DM's rulings, generally. The wizard has the clear advantage, sure, but if you're too cocky, you end up in trouble.


If the circumstances are contrived so as to give the fighter a fair chance, then great. But you're not beating a wizard then. You're beating an artificially contrived challenge.

What, like a duel with a wizard who isn't actually there?

Any kind of battle between two characters in abstract is going to be an artificially contrived challenge. And it's undeniable that any half-decent build will stand a chance of killing a wizard, although maybe not a very good one. We're just throwing some ideas around to see what is useful against what, and what can counter what. The Persistent power leech is probably a better approach than persist consumptive field, so let's go with that.

This isn't a Wizard vs. Fighter thread trying to show once and for all which is superior by claiming some kind of universal validity, and considering the fate of such threads, I'm rather glad of that.

[killianh]

I beat a mage once but it involved two contingency spells cast on me by the focused conjurer in our party. I built a focused Grappler with most of my money going to extra strength and Initiative boosts.

Round one: Use anklet of translocation as a swift action to be beside the mage, then initiate a grapple. Won the grapple, which set off a contingency spell of planar shift. We went to a dead magic plane.

Round two: beat caster to death.

Unfortunately it means you're trapped there, but if you leave behind some hair you can be resurrected (though without all of your items) worth it for an end of or close to end of BBEG.

I know there are ways to overcome the dead magic, the grapple, and the contingency spell, but realistically you won't be facing a caster optimized to the levels it can be taken (unless your DM hates you). Nor would they prepare their spell list just for you. This would work for an arena match, if the rules included that they can't know or learn anything about the opponent before the match

[Hirax]

If I understand correctly, the plan is to cast persistent consumptive field then fly around commonertown until you have Str 10000 or so, then attack using foresight+celerity to get the first action.

Can you do it without using an infinite loop exploit? I'll concede all known infinite power loop exploits.

Consumptive field doesn't need to be stair-stepped here, because only the caster level boosting portion of the spell is capped. You don't even need to use results-oriented rules reading or exploit ambiguous wording like people do to justify reserves of strength stupidity, the spell is quite clear that only the CL bonus has a cap. Your strength has no limit, so if you cast it at CL 20, you can kill 100 things and get 200 strength. The simplest way to maintain the spell day after day is simply to devote a few rooms of your stronghold, capable caravel, demiplane, or other, to raising chickens, which are dirt cheap and can be maintained by the unseen servants in the capable caravel if you go that route.


Depends on how many people you kill each day. Anything more than about 20-30 is getting unsustainable, and that's not enough to actually win in melee. Even 100 people a day is still only +50 damage.

Are our wizards protected against something as simple as dispel magic?

As pointed out sustaining the consumptive field is trivial. Dispelling vastly favors the defender, and if you cast consumptive field a second time that's all it takes to put it out of reach of any non-disjunction dispelling. Then you would of course cast any other buffs at that higher CL. Note that I'm not suggesting you try to argue consumptive field and its greater cousin stack, I'm suggesting you say they don't stack, so that regardless of which you use, the most you can get out of repeated castings of any type of consumptive field is double your original CL-1, if you want to invest in the reources to cast it that many times. In my own practice I generally cast it twice, to achieve a 75% CL boost. With the level of optimization the OP is throwing around, dispelling really isn't a viable strategy, due to the caps on all non-disjunction dispels, and the limited amount of ways to boost the check.

[Togo]

Dispelling vastly favors the defender, and if you cast consumptive field a second time that's all it takes to put it out of reach of any non-disjunction dispelling. Then you would of course cast any other buffs at that higher CL. Note that I'm not suggesting you try to argue consumptive field and its greater cousin stack, I'm suggesting you say they don't stack, so that regardless of which you use, the most you can get out of repeated castings of any type of consumptive field is double your original CL-1, if you want to invest in the reources to cast it that many times.

The spell itself gives a maximum increase of half your original caster level. I don't see that repeated castings would take you above that, but YMMV.


With the level of optimization the OP is throwing around, dispelling really isn't a viable strategy, due to the caps on all non-disjunction dispels, and the limited amount of ways to boost the check.

Hm.. a dispel check always works on a natural 20, and a high level spell caster can easily have 40-100 spells up at any given time. So you'd get rid of, what, 2-5 spells each time?

Or you could just use dispel evil, and get rid of the consumptive field without a roll. The trick would be knowing that he had it up in the first place, since not everyone has a high enough spellcraft to spot it.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I didn't think the natural 20 rule applied to anything that wasn't an attack roll or a saving throw.

I do agree that multiple castings of the spell shouldn't work, what with the bonuses from the same spell rule.

[Hirax]

The spell itself gives a maximum increase of half your original caster level. I don't see that repeated castings would take you above that, but YMMV.

I've always interpreted it as meaning it can't provide a bonus of more than half of what the CL used to cast that instance of the spell was. SO you could cast it at CL 20 to get to 30, then cast it at 30 to get to 35, etc. Because original caster level is hard to define (do things like spell power or create magic tattoo count?), I think this interpretation makes more sense.




Hm.. a dispel check always works on a natural 20, and a high level spell caster can easily have 40-100 spells up at any given time. So you'd get rid of, what, 2-5 spells each time?

Or you could just use dispel evil, and get rid of the consumptive field without a roll. The trick would be knowing that he had it up in the first place, since not everyone has a high enough spellcraft to spot it.

For a wizard, consumptive field is presumably coming in via arcane disiple (luck) and miracle, so dispel evil won't work because miracle doesn't inherit descriptors. Dispel magic is unlikely to work for the build in the OP due to the character's low CL, unless I missed something, which I could very easily have done. I'm not seeing where it says dispel checks automatically work on a 20.

[Togo]

I think this interpretation makes more sense.

Ok so we disagree <shrug>. It makes very little difference here in any case.


For a wizard, consumptive field is presumably coming in via arcane disiple (luck) and miracle, so dispel evil won't work because miracle doesn't inherit descriptors.

It doesn't? I'm not disputing, I'm just curious, because I'd not heard that before.


Dispel magic is unlikely to work for the build in the OP due to the character's low CL, unless I missed something, which I could very easily have done. I'm not seeing where it says dispel checks automatically work on a 20.

Not the OP build no. The character I usually use for such challenges can get a CL 20 on a dispel check, but I've never really been sure whether it was worth pursuing as a tactic. It seems that getting a small percentage of spells dispelled is still useful, provided the sheer number of spells is very high, but if my target has a caster level above 29, it doesn't seem like it is worth it.

Given that this thread was about an AMF fighter, I was also trying to work out whether there was any realistic alternative to using anti-magic field. It would hard, to say the least, to beat an optimised wizard in a straight fight, so obviously we're looking to cheat somehow. The 'Surpirse, I'm a githyanki' move I used above with Candycorn is one way, but I can think of very few others. AMF seems the obvious way forward, and is fortunately hard to counter.

[Hirax]

It doesn't? I'm not disputing, I'm just curious, because I'd not heard that before.



I've always figured that when a miracle or wish duplicates another spell it simply takes the original spell, but makes it 9th level and turns it into an evocation with no subschools or descriptors. For instance, when mimicking flesh to stone:

Miracle
Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Luck 9
Components: V, S, XP; see text
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

I simply chopped the top 5 lines from miracle and the rest from flesh to stone. I freely admit that there's no concrete guidelines on how miracle/wish work when duplicating spells, but this is what I've always used.



Not the OP build no. The character I usually use for such challenges can get a CL 20 on a dispel check, but I've never really been sure whether it was worth pursuing as a tactic. It seems that getting a small percentage of spells dispelled is still useful, provided the sheer number of spells is very high, but if my target has a caster level above 29, it doesn't seem like it is worth it.

Given that this thread was about an AMF fighter, I was also trying to work out whether there was any realistic alternative to using anti-magic field. It would hard, to say the least, to beat an optimised wizard in a straight fight, so obviously we're looking to cheat somehow. The 'Surpirse, I'm a githyanki' move I used above with Candycorn is one way, but I can think of very few others. AMF seems the obvious way forward, and is fortunately hard to counter.

There not many ways to boost dispel checks, but there are enough to be significant. It can be viable against builds that don't prepare for it at all. However, as mentioned, once your opponent starts actively defending against dispelling, you'll either be screwed, or forced to invest in more expensive dispel boosters (and you might still come up short then). Any wizard that's going to put up heaps of buffs is also going to invest in a high caster level so that the buffs last longer or are more powerful, depending on how a given spell would benefit from a high CL. And of course, it also makes them harder to dispel, which makes sure they're good to go on a complete adventuring day. Plus, uncapped spells such as maw of chaos, or rounds/level combat spells love a high CL too. In a dispelling arms race, the defender has more tools (and incentives to use them due to synergy) to use to keep their buffs online, and the attacker is saddled with CL caps and a very limited number of ways to boost dispel checks. Plus, to get a high enough CL, you're basically going to have to make another caster, so you're moving away from warrior vs. wizard and into wizard vs. wizard.

As for the best way to shut down wizards, antimagic is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but getting them inside it in practice tends not to be all that effective or feasible. The spell itself is too small and easy to avoid, and the manacles are suicidal. Information overload is probably the best way to take down wizards, but unfortunately for optimization boards, there isn't a good way to model that. Even then, how to appropriately overload the mind of a being with 30+ int is something that I don't think there could be a good amount of consensus on. Basically, as many distractions as possible, to get the wizard to slip up and do something stupid.

[Anthrowhale]

Mage optimized to the same level:


Actually, it looks less optimized to me. But, it's another infinite power loop. Certainly feasible according to the rules, but infinite power loops have limited interest to me.



Then you can try to hit the astral projection.


Better not slip up. AMF on an astral projection = spell suppressed = wizard stuck in suspended animation indefinitely.



Paranoid wizards of equal level, optimized equally well, and played equally well, will never lose to a fighter.


But, can it be done without an infinite power loop? The only approach I see at the moment is level boosting until MDJ succeeds with a decent chance.


Consumptive field doesn't need to be stair-stepped here

I have no doubts about legality of the infinite power loop.

As a DM, I'd probably require you kill things with at least 1 HD to give power, otherwise you can just use yogurt to fuel consumptive field.



The spell itself is too small and easy to avoid, and the manacles are suicidal.


It doesn't seems like the manacles are suicidal when the attack forms required to overcome them are deicidal.

[Hirax]

I have no doubts about legality of the infinite power loop.

As a DM, I'd probably require you kill things with at least 1 HD to give power, otherwise you can just use yogurt to fuel consumptive field.



It doesn't seems like the manacles are suicidal when the attack forms required to overcome them are deicidal.

It's not a loop. :smallconfused: It's not really any different than how many psionic powers are augmented (touchsight, etc.), they'll take as much as you can put into them, subject to practical limits and your available resources. I also don't see the relevance of your houserule in this context. In a real game that's a reasonable prohibition, but it's unambiguously RAW legal, and with the level of optimization being thrown around I don't think it's becoming to start throwing out such prohibitions when they expose a weakness to the build.

Though even if you don't want consumptive field to be used for whatever reason, any method of just whacking the character in the OP with a stick works. AC is a pretty crappy defense, and the high strength would make it easy to simply sunder your manacles like butter if they posed a problem anyway. Shapechanging into a sand giant, casting (if it wasn't already persisted) bite of the werebear, then miracling in giant size to get you a strength of 85, and we're barely scratching the surface. Let's say we end at 100 strength for simplicity. Persisted choose destiny and divine power are other things I enjoy on a wizard, and greater magic weapon lasts all day on its own. That's an attack bonus of +70 and rolling 2d20 on each attack. 2 hits with a 2-handed weapon would kill you, or 1 attack if power attack+true strike was used. Or just sunder your manacles, since even if you succeed on the AOO you don't stop the sunder attempt (and you won't, since the iwzard will be colossal and hitting you from outside your reach). Not exactly a deific effort.

[Togo]

As for the best way to shut down wizards, antimagic is one of those things that sounds great in theory, but getting them inside it in practice tends not to be all that effective or feasible.

???
How about this:
Waterskin of the deluge (an item that casts flashflood), wildshape into a beholder with antimagic ray. Follow up as a move action.

Would that not work?


The spell itself is too small and easy to avoid, and the manacles are suicidal.

Why? Either you're in the field, in which case they're hard to sunder, or you're outside the field in which case they don't need to be drawn out at all.

[Rubik]

Better not slip up. AMF on an astral projection = spell suppressed = wizard stuck in suspended animation indefinitely.No. The Astral Projection spell removes your consciousness from your body and allows you to act outside of it. Suppressing it means your consciousness is no longer removed and you can no longer act outside of it so long as the AMF is where the Projection was. All that means is that you're safe back at your body until the AMF runs out, allowing you to dismiss and re-cast it (of which there are many ways to do so cheaply).

[Hirax]

???
How about this:
Waterskin of the deluge (an item that casts flashflood), wildshape into a beholder with antimagic ray. Follow up as a move action.

Would that not work?



Why? Either you're in the field, in which case they're hard to sunder, or you're outside the field in which case they don't need to be drawn out at all.

Flashflood trick is cool. The manacles aren't hard to sunder at all. Despite the fact that the manacles are in the field, the attacker isn't. So the manacles still have to withstand damage from the attacker's jacked up strength. The attacker's weapon isn't even technically affected by the AMF. I have a hard time believing the manacles would be more than an inch thick, so they're toast with one shot from a muscle wizard.

[candycorn]

Well if you were up against my candidate, then no, it's not over. I'm standing somewhere in a cloud of smoke that's 100' radius. Assuming you can target me at all, the disjunction won't clear the smoke, and the charm will have no apparent effect, even after the disjunction has gone offLet's see... Let's assume a good move silent check (60).
Then let's assume you're at 1000 feet. (+100 DC).
And let's assume the wizard needs to pinpoint the exact location you're hiding in. (+20 DC)

Wizard listen check +3500 vs DC 180.

If wizard can't see through the fog, It's as simple as incorporeal > Superior invisibility, gust of wind, kill. Alternately, Time stop, Maw of chaos (rod maximized), Quickened large forcecage, Maw of chaos (rod maximized), Quickened small forcecage. 240 damage a round, no save, and trapped in a cage after the AMF is autonuked.


Or I can hit your astral cord with my silver sword, killing you instantly. If you get within 5 feet, and AMF is up, the Astral Projection doesn't exist; it winks out.
If AMF is down, contingency triggers.

Also bear in mind, you can't see through that 100 feet of smoke either. And a Superior Invisibility Wizard is impossible to pinpoint by sound. (and only visible in smoke, at a range of 5 feet. Even then, that's only if you make the spot check vs the wizard's +3499 hide check)

Good job I'm a githyanki, huh?Except that your gimmick doesn't work?

Wait, who's playing with a fighter? We're just talking warrior-type mage killing builds here.Even those all fail.
Depends on the DM's rulings, generally. The wizard has the clear advantage, sure, but if you're too cocky, you end up in trouble.The fight is the wizard's to lose. Nothing the fighter does can possibly win the fight. The only way the wizard can lose is if the wizard lets the fighter win.

When nothing you do can guarantee victory, and you must rely on an opponent's mistakes to win, you are assuming that the warrior type is being run more competently.

I will concede that if you let the mage killer be built and played by a CharOp grandmaster, and the wizard is designed and played by the kid eating glue in the corner, that the fighter could win.

But, with equal optimization levels, and equal skill, the fighter-type simply will. not. win.


What, like a duel with a wizard who isn't actually there?

Any kind of battle between two characters in abstract is going to be an artificially contrived challenge. And it's undeniable that any half-decent build will stand a chance of killing a wizard, although maybe not a very good one. We're just throwing some ideas around to see what is useful against what, and what can counter what. The Persistent power leech is probably a better approach than persist consumptive field, so let's go with that.

This isn't a Wizard vs. Fighter thread trying to show once and for all which is superior by claiming some kind of universal validity, and considering the fate of such threads, I'm rather glad of that.
The fighter has no chance of winning. This is because the "mage-killer" has no tactic, no strategy, no possible way, to guarantee victory.

The battle cannot be won by the fighter-type. It can only be lost by the wizard. That is a subtle, but important decision.

If the only way you can fight 6 men and win is if two of them accidentally shoot each other, one falls down the stairs and breaks his leg, two get struck by lightning, and the last one is the little guy, then you can't fight six men and win. They can make colossal fools of themselves fighting some random dude, but that point was never being contended.

To win means to perform actions which result in victory. If victory is not dependent on your actions, but rather the actions of another, then you aren't the one winning, even if you are the victor.

Also: My build literally assumed 16 point buy. I used it under the premise of winning by rolling low. Even if initiative is rolled, and is a 1? It's 3500. HP? 20d4 + 69,980. Saves? +3505. Skill checks? You can do every listed epic usage of every skill on a roll of 1.

It's a simpler build, a more elegant build, a more powerful build, a more flexible build. You are welcome to think that the fighter can win. But if you depend on outside factors, rather than controlling those factors, then you are a slug on the asphalt, who can get across just fine, as long as the 6 year old decides not to play with salt.

[Anthrowhale]

It's not a loop. :smallconfused:

The loop is:
(1) Kill chicken
(2) Gain +2 Str bonus
(3) go to 1

But this is a distraction in general---If there was a spell of "choose your Str", it would still be deicidal.



I also don't see the relevance of your houserule in this context.


It's not relevant to the legality, just a side note.



Shapechanging into a sand giant, casting (if it wasn't already persisted) bite of the werebear, then miracling in giant size to get you a strength of 85, and we're barely scratching the surface. Let's say we end at 100 strength for simplicity. Persisted choose destiny and divine power are other things I enjoy on a wizard, and greater magic weapon lasts all day on its own.


It's 75 Strength (27+16(enhance)+32). I'm not going to give you a free +25, because you've made several other mistakes in thinking about the AMF. Another one here is that greater magic weapon is ineffective when it enters the AMF.



That's an attack bonus of +70 and rolling 2d20 on each attack.


I get: +20(BAB)+32(Str)=+52. Choose Destiny doesn't give you 2d20 to the roll, it gives you max{d20,d20}, implying that you hit AC 66 about half the time. That's not good enough.



Or just sunder your manacles, since even if you succeed on the AOO you don't stop the sunder attempt (and you won't, since the iwzard will be colossal and hitting you from outside your reach).


Sundering isn't a freebie, because the manacles are a worn object, requiring the wizard to overcome AC. It's a more elegant approach though. Can you make it work?



Not exactly a deific effort.

Nor effective. Please try again.


No. The Astral Projection spell removes your consciousness from your body and allows you to act outside of it. Suppressing it means your consciousness is no longer removed and you can no longer act outside of it so long as the AMF is where the Projection was. All that means is that you're safe back at your body until the AMF runs out, allowing you to dismiss and re-cast it (of which there are many ways to do so cheaply).

A careful reading of antimagic in the Rules Compendium says this isn't correct. An AMF suppresses just the portion of the spell inside the field, and hence your body, which is not in the AMF, remains in suspended animation.

[Hirax]

Apologies, I meant sun giant (MM2), which has a base strength of 37, which makes 85 when you add 16 and 32 from said spells. I'm not seeing anything that indicates a weapon enters a square when it attacks. That's an intuitive assumption to make in real life, but due to D&D combat being nothing like real life, that doesn't mean anything here. Also, I never meant to imply you added the d20s from choose destiny together, I'm a little insulted that you assumed that's what I meant. I have no interest in dumpster diving further, if you want to naively assume that you're difficult to hit then that's on you, but don't be surprised that AC isn't really taken seriously in this context. Other people can fill in the gaps if they want to.

"A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character." That's trivial to hit, and with a high strength score, only 1 hit is necessary.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Manacles of antimagic fill the wearer's square, and all adjacent squares with an AMF. If you're close enough to use a silver sword, you're close enough that it's suppressed, barring enlargement. That still leaves the problem of getting the blasted things on a wizard though.

[Hirax]

Manacles do not fill all adjacent squares, they fill a 10'x10' area, that's how D&D works. When something puts out a 5' radius, you pick one of the 4 grid intersections around your character (if you're medium) to be the center of the 10' area. For the same reason, a medium sized character can attack another medium sized character with a reach weapon using the regular AMF spell, without standing inside the AMF. For large characters, they still have to pick a grid intersection, so the the majority of the squares adjacanet to them will not be affected by the AMF. Or if they center the AMF on them self, then no adjacent squares are affected. A large creature would need to center the AMF on them self if they wanted to be entirely affected by it. If instead a large creature put the AMF centered on one of the grid intersections on the edge of their space so as to affect some adjacent squares, a medium sized creature could grapple them without being affected by the AMF, if they entered one of the squares occupied by the creature that wasn't reached by the AMFs. Huge or larger creatures cannot entirely cover themselves with a regular AMF spell.

Also, gith swords are specifically said to only function on the astral plane (with regards to severing) in the Planar Handbook or Manual of the Planes, so you either need some way to get you and your target to be on the astral plane, or to instead polymorph into an astral dreadnought.

[Flickerdart]

Wait, hang on.

So this guy has an AMF in a couple of squares next to him, and flies up to a wizard. How does the wizard not just immediately fall down ten feet (while his flying spell is suppressed) and then get his entire suite of magic fun toys back?

[Anthrowhale]

Apologies, I meant sun giant (MM2), which has a base strength of 37, which makes 85 when you add 16 and 32 from said spells.


Ok, you're hitting AC 63 half the time---still not enough. Edit: added in effect of size modifier


I'm not seeing anything that indicates a weapon enters a square when it attacks. That's an intuitive assumption to make in real life, but due to D&D combat being nothing like real life, that doesn't mean anything here.


I'm somewhat surprised to see the theory that a weapon doesn't intersect the creature when harming the creature. But apparently this issue came up somewhere else previously, so the Rules Compendium says "A magic weapon ... used to attack a creature inside an antimagic area, gains none of the benefits of its properties,..."



Also, I never meant to imply you added the d20s from choose destiny together, I'm a little insulted that you assumed that's what I meant.


Don't be insulted---text just isn't that expressive and I don't know you that well.



I have no interest in dumpster diving further, if you want to naively assume that you're difficult to hit then that's on you, but don't be surprised that AC isn't really taken seriously in this context.


Your close enough to make me worry, but not quit there. You need attack+14 when you win initiative (rare?) or attack +30 otherwise. (edit: added in size modifier)



"A carried or worn object’s AC is equal to 10 + its size modifier + the Dexterity modifier of the carrying or wearing character." That's trivial to hit, and with a high strength score, only 1 hit is necessary.

And apparently a careful reading of the other AC bonuses implies they don't apply even though they do apply to the character whenever dex bonuses apply to the character. I'll upgrade the manacles from Adamantium (the default) to Riverine, costing 7K gp. (~5.5 K gp are still left)

Edited: forgot size modifier in to hit calculations. Added into the above.

[Anthrowhale]

Wait, hang on.

So this guy has an AMF in a couple of squares next to him, and flies up to a wizard. How does the wizard not just immediately fall down ten feet (while his flying spell is suppressed) and then get his entire suite of magic fun toys back?

Perhaps a Grapple?

[Togo]

Let's see... Let's assume a good move silent check (60).
Then let's assume you're at 1000 feet. (+100 DC).

There's not much point in that, since some of the spells you're casting have a range of less than 100ft.


If wizard can't see through the fog,

I don't believe so. If you can, tell me how.


It's as simple as incorporeal > Superior invisibility, gust of wind, kill.

I'm not aware of any spells called 'incorporeal' or 'kill'. Those are results, not actions. What would the character actually do?


Alternately, Time stop, Maw of chaos (rod maximized), Quickened large forcecage, Maw of chaos (rod maximized), Quickened small forcecage. 240 damage a round, no save, and trapped in a cage after the AMF is autonuked.

That's better, let's go with that. Except that that does no damage to me until your next turn, because you can't hurt anyone during a time stop. So I just teleport out (even after the disjunction). Oh, and the second forcecage fails. You'll catch a brief glimpse of a guy carrying a 15ft pole in one hand, and a budgie in the other. If you have true sight, you'll know he's in an alternate form, and his true form is a githyanki. He spots your silver chord, charges, cuts the chord with a single blow and kills you on the spot (He can go astral if we decide that's needed). He doesn't need to go anywhere near you to do that.

If you're not astrally projecting, then it may be a fairer fight. He pulls out another eversmoking bottle and disappears in a cloud of smoke again.

So far you've spent:
1 charge from your staff
quickened charm
Time stop
forcecage*2
Maw of Chaos *2
Superior invisibilty
Persistent power leech

So you've got plenty of spells left.

I'll be amazed if you can't hurt or even kill my character. So far though, you've managed to nuke a few 1000gp worth of items and spell effects, but that's about it.


Also bear in mind, you can't see through that 100 feet of smoke either. And a Superior Invisibility Wizard is impossible to pinpoint by sound. (and only visible in smoke, at a range of 5 feet. Even then, that's only if you make the spot check vs the wizard's +3499 hide check).

That's because you didn't mention making a hide check to hide, or spend any actions doing so. Or mentioned casting superior invisibility, unless that's persisted too? But mainly because I've done nothing yet that would involve knowing where you are.


Except that your gimmick doesn't work?

You've neglected to mention why not.


Even those all fail.The fight is the wizard's to lose. Nothing the fighter does can possibly win the fight. The only way the wizard can lose is if the wizard lets the fighter win.

Um.. You seem to be taking this a bit personally? Not intended, I assure you.


When nothing you do can guarantee victory, and you must rely on an opponent's mistakes to win, you are assuming that the warrior type is being run more competently.

Well nothing either side can do guarentees victory. That's kinda the point I'm making. The wizard has the advantage, but it's certainly possible for the wizard to lose.


The battle cannot be won by the fighter-type. It can only be lost by the wizard. That is a subtle, but important decision.

I don't agree. Two people are trying to counter eachother, and the success or failure of each depends on the other. You're trying to treat this as an optimisation problem with a single answer. If you can provide that answer, that single unbeatable move, go ahead. You haven't, so we're back to considering move and countermove. One side has the clear advantage, but it's still an interesting fight.

[Hirax]

Your close enough to make me worry, but not quit there. You need attack+6 when you win initiative (rare?) or attack +22 otherwise.



And apparently a careful reading of the other AC bonuses implies they don't apply even though they do apply to the character whenever dex bonuses apply to the character. I'll upgrade the manacles from Adamantium (the default) to Riverine, costing 7K gp. (~5.5 K gp are still left)

Ok, if you insist, here's a quick and dirty way. Wiz5/incantatrix10/halruaan elder5. Circle magic then consumptive field (ignoring the strength bonus from it since it's not really relevant at this point) for CL 60, then algid enhancement (and mantle of the icy soul if needed) for a +21 enhancement bonus to all attack rolls. A vest of the archmagi allows plenty of miracle castings to make this all happen. So, base strength of 85 is +34, then +20 BAB, and now +21 too. So the only time they'd miss is by rolling 1s on both d20s. And there's plenty more that can be done, I didn't even put thought into optimizing CL, algid enhancement alone has plenty of room for improvement. A bead of karma, ring of arcane might, magic tattoo, and the spell enhancement spell during the buffing stage are good for an additional +4 to algid enhancement, off the top of my head. Divine favor, heroism...too many options when you start nickel and diming for more.

Moment of prescience, nerveskitter, and a hummingbird familiar are all it takes to match the build in the OP's initiative modifier. Add any magic items that boost initiative, a dex bonus, and the fact that choose destiny allows for 2d20 to be used and the wizard won't be losing initiative against the build in the OP. I suppose the wizard could also just true mind switch into a leshay for that high dex mod to rocket their initiative to the always win category. Even if you believe the absurd argument that moment of prescience doesn't work for initiative, the OP build's initiative isn't all that high, so I don't understand why you think it's rare that it would be beaten in such a high op context. Leshay is where half of the bonus comes from, and the wizard can just match that by doing the same thing. Then nerveskitter, a hummingbird, imp. initiative (from the heroics spell), and magic items can still get them a better initiative modifier. Or celerity.

The riverine manacles are awesome though. Conceptually using a magical material to generate antimagic probably shouldn't work, but the game doesn't make that distinction, so it looks like it does.

[Anthrowhale]

Ok, if you insist, here's a quick and dirty way. Wiz5/incantatrix10/halruaan elder5. Circle magic then consumptive field (ignoring the strength bonus from it since it's not really relevant at this point) for CL 60, then algid enhancement (and mantle of the icy soul if needed) for a +21 enhancement bonus to all attack rolls. A vest of the archmagi allows plenty of miracle castings to make this all happen. So, base strength of 85 is +34, then +20 BAB, and now +21 too. So the only time they'd miss is by rolling 1s on both d20s.


That's definitely scary, but you need to take into account the size penalty putting you at +67. I'd rate it an expected attack roll of 81 which certainly hits too often for comfort. I reoptimized the build in two ways to compensate for this:
(1) I swapped Ranger 1 for Fist of the Forest 1, shifting flat-footed touch AC to 90. At this point, the build adds the modifiers of all stats but strength to the AC. Do you have another super trick?
(2) I used an easier version of true mind switch (mind switch + astral seed + suicide) to switch at an earlier level, allowing more hp to be gained from later levels due to Con changes. This means you need to do 262 damage.



And there's plenty more that can be done, I didn't even put thought into optimizing CL, algid enhancement alone has plenty of room for improvement. A bead of karma, ring of arcane might, magic tattoo, and the spell enhancement spell during the buffing stage are good for an additional +4 to algid enhancement, off the top of my head. Divine favor, heroism...too many options when you start nickel and diming for more.


I don't think ring of Arcane might is effective, so you're at: +80=+20(BAB)+34(str)-8(size)+24(enhance)+6(luck)+4(morale)
which is threatening but not quite killer. Can you put out enough damage in expectation?



Moment of prescience, nerveskitter, and a hummingbird familiar are all it takes to match the build in the OP's initiative modifier. Add any magic items that boost initiative, a dex bonus, and the fact that choose destiny allows for 2d20 to be used and the wizard won't be losing initiative against the build in the OP. I suppose the wizard could also just true mind switch into a leshay for that high dex mod to rocket their initiative to the always win category. Even if you believe the absurd argument that moment of prescience doesn't work for initiative, the OP build's initiative isn't all that high, so I don't understand why you think it's rare that it would be beaten in such a high op context. Leshay is where half of the bonus comes from, and the wizard can just match that by doing the same thing. Then nerveskitter, a hummingbird, imp. initiative (from the heroics spell), and magic items can still get them a better initiative modifier. Or celerity.


I believe MoP is viable for initiative, so you are winning initiative.



The riverine manacles are awesome though. Conceptually using a magical material to generate antimagic probably shouldn't work, but the game doesn't make that distinction, so it looks like it does.

I read the Riverine description very carefully. Unlike forcecage, it says that spell effects are blocked "like wall of force".

[Hirax]

I'm not clear why you think the ring of arcane might doesn't work, it's not being used for any divine spells. Arcane disciple spells don't count as divine when you cast them. If they did, then that would be fantastic for pre reqs, but they're not. As for the increased AC, all it takes to dig into it is to add the ignored strength from consumptive field. Perhaps you won't have a problem with that since consumptive field use is being stopped when you hit its CL cap. Additionally, bite of the werebear grants power attack. So between the added strength and power attack, it still goes down easily.

So, by my math it's now at a strength mod of 61, and 25 from algid. BAB is just being dropped with the assumption it'll be used for power attack. Haste will be granting another +1 and second attack at the highest bonus. Persisted greater visage of the deity is another favorite of mine for additional int on its own, but as it turns out it also adds +4 more strength, too. If the first 2 attacks don't kill you, sure strike (PHB2) can be cast to make the third attack be pretty much guaranteed to hit you, barring a roll of dual 1s.

Additional methods at this point are to simply recast consumptive field repeatedly, under the non-stacking interpretation which means the most CL you can get is original CL*2-1, which jacks up algid enhancement more. Even one more casting of consumptive field helps a lot.

[Anthrowhale]

I reworked the build again, swapping Monk for Marshal (minor aura: dexterity). Altogether, this make initiative +47 and boosts the hide check to +53. Clearly mind switch into a LeShay can form the basis of a counter to this. Without Mind Switch but with Moment of Prescience, I believe the wizard can rival it, but perhaps not overwhelm? And without either I don't see a way to rival it.


I'm not clear why you think the ring of arcane might doesn't work, it's not being used for any divine spells.


Is the maximum caster level boost a "level based variable"? Based on wording of empower (for example), I believe not.



As for the increased AC, all it takes to dig into it is to add the ignored strength from consumptive field. Perhaps you won't have a problem with that since consumptive field use is being stopped when you hit its CL cap. Additionally, bite of the werebear grants power attack. So between the added strength and power attack, it still goes down easily.


It does seem reasonable to go up to +caster level with strength, giving you +100 to hit.



So, by my math it's now at a strength mod of 61, and 25 from algid.


-8 for size.



BAB is just being dropped with the assumption it'll be used for power attack. Haste will be granting another +1 and second attack at the highest bonus. Persisted greater visage of the deity is another favorite of mine for additional int on its own, but as it turns out it also adds +4 more strength, too. If the first 2 attacks don't kill you, sure strike (PHB2) can be cast to make the third attack be pretty much guaranteed to hit you, barring a roll of dual 1s.


I don't see a way around this, except via winning initiative so that Improved Combat Expertise can engage effectively to get AC 107. The repeated use of Consumptive Field seems to counter even this.

[Hirax]

Is the maximum caster level boost a "level based variable"? Based on wording of empower (for example), I believe not.


In my mind it is. I think what they're trying to do with the oblique wording is make it so there's no conceivable way someone could argue it makes them an 8th level sorcerer instead of a 7th level sorcerer to get the extra spells per day and higher spell levels, for instance. Doesn't make much difference, a robe of arcane might or band of spell enhancement could be used instead, and I'm no doubt forgetting many other things. I tried to keep things simple and avoid heaps of small bonuses, I've seen wizard builds that with dumpster diving claimed attack bonuses much higher than what I've posted, but I don't have the patience to explore such details.

[Anthrowhale]

Let me understand the state of play as I understand it. The AMF fighter is vulnerable to:

(1) All the infinite (more correctly: arbitrary) power exploits.
(2) A caster level maximizing persistomancer that:
(a) Maxes out to-hit & damage via Shapechange (Sun Giant), Consumptive Field, Algid enhancement, haste, bite of the werebear, power attack.
(b) Subverts initiative via Greater Celerity. I believe init+47 is enough to put in doubt Sun Giant dex (+2), Mop(+25), Nerveskitter (+5), Imp Init (+4), humming bird(+4), +misc
(c) Uses sundry spells or items to get Spot > 63 (or so).

There are a few gatable epic monsters that are also dangerous (Sirrush, Gibbering Orb, etc...) but these appear slow enough or weak enought that they are basically mobility kills.

Can an Initiate of Mystra work?

[Anthrowhale]

I gave up on pure antimagic purity to eliminate vulnerability (2). The attack sequence now looks like this:
(1) Precast contingent celerity, foresight, and moment of prescience using items.
(2) Sneak closish to wizard (Distance 140)
At the moment combat starts, several possibilities can unfold, depending on wizardly preparations.
3a (MoP) Win initiative, Fly adjacent (move), trigger AM (Standard), White raven tactics on self (swift), 10' step through wizards space to trigger flat-footed (skill trick), insert 10 daggers in wizards magicless hide.
3b (Foresight+Greater Celerity+MoP) Win initiative, move as in 3a until interuption. Interupt interuption with contingent celerity, move adjacent, belt of battle, trigger AMF (Standard), White raven tactics on self (swift), 10' step through wizards space to trigger flat-footed (skill trick), insert 10 daggers in wizards magicless hide.

The missing manacles mean that the character is more vulnerable when unprepared (that's bad), but on the upside the character is now strategically deployable (that's very good).

[Lanceloth]

One problem, LeShay. You cant gated him.
And the powers and spells to take your body is TEMPORARY, not permanent.
Sorcerer Beat you with one round. Finished it.