One Gish to Rule Them All

[Palanan]

...At least, that's what he thinks.

I need to build a mid-level NPC for a campaign I'm running, and right now I only have the merest seed of a concept: a warlord fighting to unite a scatter of petty hill-kingdoms.

His race is already set as human, and he's very much the brooding warrior-king, with arcane ferocity on the side. I'd like for him to be around 10th-12th level, with an emphasis on martial prowess, and I'd like to avoid any cleric or wizard.

Abjurant Champion seems to be the secret ingredient for everyone's gish build, but I'd like for this guy to use heavier armor if possible. Starting out with a little duskblade is a possibility, and I'd like to top it off with some warblade...but I'm open to just about anything. Where should I start, and where do I go from there?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

One Gish to find them...

Why not use a standard Sorcadin build? Charismatic enough to be a leader of the people and potentially hearty enough to stand up to some hits. Also Abjurant Champion is a staple in Gish builds for a reason, but if you want actual armour look into: Thistledown Padded 5% (RoTW), Githcraft/Feycraft 5% (DMG II), Mithral 10% (DMG) and the Twilight enhancement 10% (PHB 2).

[danzibr]

One Gish to bring them all...

Also if you want to use heavier armor the PrC Spellsword (I think) reduces the arcane casting penalty. Alternatively you could go something with Psion.

[only1doug]

...And in the darkness bind them

Warmage / warblade / wardrake soul seeker (refluffed evil NPC version of emerald Phoenix mage)
Why should only good PCs get to mix arcane + ToB, lets make an evil NPC version...

[Urpriest]

Probably ninja'd, but just to work out some of the math: Full Plate normally has 35% spell failure. Mithril lowers it by 10% (and is a good choice normally anyway), Spellsword 1 lowers it by an additional 10%, so we're down to 15%. Thistledown Suit will give an additional 5%, so we need 10%, which could be gotten by stacking Githcraft/Feycraft (doubtful) or with Twilight. Either way, it's pretty easy for the standard Sorcadin build to wear Full Plate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warblade 1/ Paladin of Tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) 2/ Duskblade 2/ Warblade 1/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 2. Say he visited the Otyugh Hole detailed in Complete Scoundrel to get Iron Will without spending a feat on it.

Use the Harmonious Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) 1 sub level for Paladin of Tyranny. Use Silverbrow Human from Dragon Magic if possible, and get Dragonfire Inspiration with a Badge of Valor to add +2d6 fire damage to his and all his allies' attacks. Give him Melodic Casting and he can keep Inspire Courage running indefinitely, but will likely only activate it if he anticipates a fight. I'd give him Perform: Barking Orders, and he can go around telling people to do whatever they're already doing like a terrible boss.

Give him a Cha 18+, Polymorph as his 4th level spell known which he never ever casts, so he can use his Minor Shapeshift reserve feat whenever he wants to gain temporary HP. Be sure to include Practiced Spellcaster and Arcane Strike. His weapon and each of his gauntlets (which are considered weapons) should have a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) with a Wand of Wraithstrike, Rhino's Rush (Paladin list), and whatever other spell you want (Faith Healing maybe). Include an Eternal Wand (MIC) of Hound of Doom (CW), anyone capable of casting arcane spells can use it an he can use it as a mount or just an extra combatant.

His Warblade maneuvers and stances should be Steel Wind, Punishing Stance, Stone Bones, Douse the Flames, and Battle Leader's Charge, with Douse the Flames as the only one he doesn't keep readied. He should always Rhino's Rush with Battle Leader's Charge. Include Power Attack with Leap Attack and Armbands of Might, and he should always take a -2 for Power Attack to get +6 damage two-handed, which gets increased to +12 if he Leap Attacks.

If you want him to wear armor, a +1 Twilight Mithral Full Plate with a Thistledown Suit (RotW) only has a 10% ASF, which Suel Arcanamach completely ignores. He can use his 1st level Duskblade spells to power Arcane Strike. He should definitely cast Shield before a fight, since it gives him a +6 AC bonus. He should use a piercing weapon, so with his Fly spell he can execute a dive attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#fly), which works with any piercing weapon per Dragonborn (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20060105b) wings aspect, Raptoran (RotW), and probably every other humanoid race with natural flight printed in the second half of 3.5. Note that a Dive Attack with Rhino's Rush will deal three times damage, and a critical hit is another multiplier so a x2 crit will make that four times, or a x3 crit will make it five times.

Tactics:
Prior to combat: Alarm spells are triggered and he knows a fight is coming. Inspire Courage + Dragonfire Inspiration + Badge of Valor (unlimited duration), cast Shield (30 min), cast Fly (20 min), cast Displacement (20 rounds), cast Bladeweave (20 rounds).
*The following is a sequence he should cycle through; Round A if there's an unarmored or lightly armored obvious arcane spellcaster (spell component pouch, casting spells, etc.) within charging range. Round B if he's not adjacent to any opponents and Battle Leader's Charge is spent. Round C if he's adjacent to one or more opponents and Battle Leader's Charge is spent.
Round A: Activate Wand of Rhino's Rush (swift), initiate Battle Leader's Charge with Leap Attack or Dive Attack.
Round B: Activate Minor Shapeshift, move adjacent to two opponents, Steel Wind; if he can't get adjacent to two opponents, do a normal attack or even a charge (leap or dive) and recover maneuvers.
Round C: Activate Arcane Strike, activate Wand of Wraithstrike, Power Attack for full BAB, full attack, recover maneuvers.

[Palanan]

EDIT: Before BF's post:

Very nice, guys. ; )

I've heard about sorcadins, but never actually built one. This guy is fighting less from grand principle and more from his own cravings for power and control. Definitely not a standard paladin, but I don't see him as being overwhelmingly evil, so paladin of tyranny wouldn't really fit.

A paladin of freedom is close to working...except this guy isn't really following the playbook if he's conquering small kingdoms to add to his own.

Hmm. A paladin base is still possible, but are there some other options? I'd like him to start with a purely martial core, and add the arcane element later on.



After BF's post:

...okay. Wow. There's a mini-sorcadin handbook right there.

*fuses blow in brain*
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[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The build I presented works just fine with two more Warblade instead of the Paladin of Tyranny levels, or you could throw some Hexblade in there.

Dragon magazine 310 has a Paladin variant of every alignment. The LN version is the Enforcer, it gets Detect Chaos (which will be replaced with Inspire Courage), Smite Chaos, and instead of Lay on Hands you don't take a penalty to attack rolls for dealing nonlethal damage. Any noncore sources that contribute spells to the base Paladin (or Blackguard) spell list should give the same spells to any Paladin variants as well.

Edit: That's not a Sorcadin, it's a Warblade + Suel Arcanamach. If you want to use Sorcerer, you can make it Warblade 1/ Sorcerer 4/ Warblade 1/ Spellsword 1/ Abjurant Champion 5, which gets 5th level spells but has a +10 BAB. I opted for one more BAB for three attacks/round, considerably better HP, Suel Arcanamach extended buffs, and just a lot more class features in general. You could switch it to a Warblade+Sorcerer build and it would still work the same, just no Inspire Courage.

[Palanan]

Thanks for the very detailed roadmap there. I was indeed thinking about another couple levels of warblade. I'll also give Suel Arcanamach a good read.

And whaddaya know, I just picked up Dragon 310 a few days ago. Choices, choices.

:smalltongue:

[Gwendol]

While I don't think I can add much to the discussion I'm fond of the Purple Knight PrC as it also gives an IC feature, as well as some minor buffs to troops. Or go warchanter.
Edit: purple dragon knight, of course.

[Flickerdart]

Is Arcane a requirement? Crusader 5/Soldier of Light 2/Divine Crusader 3/Prestige Paladin 1/Contemplative 1 gets you 5th level Divine spells from the Paladin list and any two domains, loses only 2 points of BAB and can be easily plugged into Ruby Knight Vindicator if you want maneuvers to supplement your sick buffs.

[Fable Wright]

Hmm. A paladin base is still possible, but are there some other options? I'd like him to start with a purely martial core, and add the arcane element later on.


It depends on how much later you want to add in the Arcane element. If you want to add it on late in the build, as in, he was a highly respected warrior who probably had some rank in an army before coming into arcane might, Suel Arcanamach is probably your best option. Here's a handbook for it (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159617). Otherwise, if you want a Barbarian base (which doesn't really fit with a 'ruler' mentality, but works with fighting) Runescarred Berserker adds some arcane might while maintaining maximum rage powers. There are a few other classes like that out there that add a decent spellcasting progression if you want stuff like that, but those two are amongst the best and most well-known.

[Salanmander]

Is Arcane a requirement? Crusader 5/Soldier of Light 2/Divine Crusader 3/Prestige Paladin 1/Contemplative 1 gets you 5th level Divine spells from the Paladin list and any two domains, loses only 2 points of BAB and can be easily plugged into Ruby Knight Vindicator if you want maneuvers to supplement your sick buffs.

Generally gish means arcane. If you want a divine fighter/caster, you can just go cleric 20.

[Rubik]

Generally gish means arcane. If you want a divine fighter/caster, you can just go cleric 20.That was the original meaning, though these days it means anything that casts spells and hits hard. Psionic gishes are still gishes, after all. As are, yes, divine ones.

[Flickerdart]

Generally gish means arcane. If you want a divine fighter/caster, you can just go cleric 20.
And have crappy HP and BAB, yes. Why waste Persisted spells on catching up to a Fighter when you could start off with those and then make them even more badass?

[Randomguy]

You're the DM and he's an NPC. You could just make him a gestalt Fighter/Sorcerer

If you want to stick to the rules, though:

You could go full duskblade.

You could try Sorcerer 6/Knight Phantom (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050706a&page=4) 6, and just make up your own fluff for the class to fit your setting. But this has much more emphasis on magic than on martial, since you're only 1 level behind sorcerers, but 3 levels behind martial characters (in terms of BAB).
You could also shuffle the levels a bit, and go into abjurant chmapion as soon as you get the required BAB from Knight Phantom.

Alternatively, just take the standard sorcadin build, but swap Paladin for Hexblade (or any melee class, really) and Sacred Exorcist for Eldritch Knight (if you feel like it)

[jaybird]

Thoughts about the Swiftblade?

[Flickerdart]

Swiftblade is a lot less "brooding warrior king" and a lot more "dainty swashbuckling duelist". They don't work so well with heavy steel on them.

[Snowbluff]

Thoughts about the Swiftblade?

It probably shoulf have been suggested with Sorcadin. If you want a boss that could could one-on-many a party of players, Swiftbalde is where it's at. Also, you can hint to your party that dispelling would weaken him. Where alot of dispels would wreck (I mean to the GROUND) a Sorcadin, a Swiftblade should be able to keep up some buffs/combat competence against a savvy party.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Flickerdart
Is Arcane a requirement?

I'd like it later on, although not ruling out a touch of divine gish earlier.

Just looked through the alternative paladins in Dragon 310, and while there are glimmers of interesting concepts, none of them really fit what I have in mind. Champion of the downtrodden, defender against planar intrusion, upholder of ying-and-yang balance...not really.

I was thinking, though, about adding a couple levels of favored soul instead of paladin--on the premise that he's slightly touched by some warfaring higher power. This is hardly a requirement, just another idea.

As for runescarred berserker, it's an interesting angle, but doesn't quite fit. And swiftblade...definitely not where I'm thinking. Suel Arcanamach, although weird, does have some tastiness to it. Tenacious spells and dispelling strike would be superb.

And, since BF's build already has two levels of duskblade...why not take three, and pick up arcane channeling?

[Kelb_Panthera]

What optimization level does your party play at? I can't help thinking that a top-notch gish is going to mop the floor with your party, if they're low-op.

[Palanan]

Yes, indeed. When BF started talking about DFI and flying with piercing damage...wow.

The party is still very low-level, and they won't be coming across this particular NPC for a while. Even so, they're lowish-op and, thus far, they have zero arcane firepower. They'll improve, but you're quite right, I don't want the warrior-king to be too extravagantly uber-gish.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Spell-sword or multiclass duskblade will probably be enough then. No sense going overboard.

I'd probably go with a middle aged Fighter/warlock 1/greenstar adept. He's took to researching dark powers and a way to escape his own mortality because of a mid-life crisis.

That's one of the things I like about low-op. You can make some of the more flavorful choices, without the "major problems" rearing their ugly heads.

[Palanan]

Well, low-ish op, but they have plenty of time and they'll improve. Maxed-out DFI is a little over the top, but I do like some of the other options.

Having looked at Suel arcanamach, I'm hooked on trying it, and three levels of duskblade just sounds too useful. The warblade levels shouldn't be too much; I'm going to nudge one of the PCs toward warblade in his next level or two. The warrior-king should be a challenge when the PCs finally reach him, but not overwhelmingly so.



EDIT: After four levels of Suel arcanamach, two levels of abjurant champion seem a little meh.

If I go warblade 3/duskblade 3/Suel Arcanamach 4, what would be a good choice for the last two levels, assuming I bring him up to 12th?
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[Kelb_Panthera]

Well, low-ish op, but they have plenty of time and they'll improve. Maxed-out DFI is a little over the top, but I do like some of the other options.

Having looked at Suel arcanamach, I'm hooked on trying it, and three levels of duskblade just sounds too useful. The warblade levels shouldn't be too much; I'm going to nudge one of the PCs toward warblade in his next level or two. The warrior-king should be a challenge when the PCs finally reach him, but not overwhelmingly so.



EDIT: After four levels of Suel arcanamach, two levels of abjurant champion seem a little meh.

If I go warblade 3/duskblade 3/Suel Arcanamach 4, what would be a good choice for the last two levels, assuming I bring him up to 12th?
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Two more levels of either duskblade or suel arcanamach. One more spell level for the arcanamach, or a few extra spells/day for the duskblade.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

After four levels of Suel arcanamach, two levels of abjurant champion seem a little meh.

If I go warblade 3/duskblade 3/Suel Arcanamach 4, what would be a good choice for the last two levels, assuming I bring him up to 12th?

Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 2 gets three times the normal duration on Abjuration spells that target himself (doubled twice), and his Shield spell gives him +6 instead of the normal +4. Replacing it with two more Suel Arcanamach, you'll be getting d8's instead of d10's, and you'll lose another point of BAB along with your third attack on a full attack. There's absolutely no reason to use anything but Abjurant Champion. The typical 20-level build goes Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ Spellsword 1, and then either Dragon Disciple 4 for more spells/day, or more of whatever initiator class you took before qualifying for SA.

Duskblade 3 gets Arcane Channeling, but he won't have any spells worth using with that. His 1st level Duskblade spell slots are better spent on Arcane Strike with a full attack, and SA's limited schools don't give access to any worthwhile touch spells. If you want him to add magic damage to his attacks, that's what Dragonfire Inspiration was for.

If you don't want to use any Paladin, then go Warblade 1/ Duskblade 2/ Warblade 3/ Suel Arcanamach 4/ Abjurant Champion 2. That gives you a 3rd level Warblade maneuver and a stance, so get Absolute Steel Stance and Iron Heart Surge.

[Palanan]

Well, here's a question. Given that Belker Claws is a touch spell, could this be cast through a melee weapon using the duskblade's arcane channeling?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Well, here's a question. Given that Belker Claws is a touch spell, could this be cast through a melee weapon using the duskblade's arcane channeling?

Yes, but the spell only lasts for a single attack instead of its normal duration (per the last paragraph of Arcane Channeling). He'll have too few spell slots to be spamming touch spells, and you'll miss out on 3rd level maneuvers and stances to get Arcane Channeling.

[Palanan]

I see what you're saying, just want to be sure I'm reading this right.

The last sentence of arcane channeling reads, "Doing so discharges the spell at the end of the round, in the case of a touch spell that would otherwise last longer than 1 round."

However, as I read this, "doing so" refers specifically to using the touch spell to affect multiple targets in a full attack, as described in the previous sentence. The wording in the first paragraph of arcane channeling doesn't seem as restricted; "then the effect of the spell is resolved."

Not arguing, just looking for clarification. :smalltongue:

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I think the intent of the ability is for the touch spell to only affect a single attack when using Arcane Channeling, or a single full attack if you have that ability. The last sentence of each paragraph implies that the spell would be discharged at the end of the attack normally, or at the end of the round after a full attack, rather than lasting its full duration.

[Palanan]

Okay, I see what you mean, and I agree about the intent. Still, +2d12 sounds good even for a single round, since there's no save.

Also, channelling Weapon Shift could be a lot of fun. I want to tell my swashbuckler that his prized masterwork rapier is now a sap.

:smalltongue:

[Decz]

An option that involves duskblade and ToB could be Duskblade 5/Warblade 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 6. He's not the greatest at anything other than blowing someone up (but if that's your king's idea of politics it might work out in his favor :smallbiggrin:). JPM's maneuvers/stances are limited to Desert Wind and Devoted Spirit so if there was something special you wanted from warblade's schools it would be limiting. Otherwise he has arcane prowess and a splattering of blade magic in an medium armored, full BAB chassis.

[Rubik]

Okay, I see what you mean, and I agree about the intent. Still, +2d12 sounds good even for a single round, since there's no save.

Also, channelling Weapon Shift could be a lot of fun. I want to tell my swashbuckler that his prized masterwork rapier is now a sap.

:smalltongue:I personally think HE is the sap for taking swashbuckler.

[Shinovar]

Is this 3.5 or can you use Pathfinder? If you can, I find the Synthesist Summoner to be a wonderful gish, especially at those levels. Take 10 levels of Summoner, and 2 of Paladin (for the saves) and you have a charismatic gish that can cast 4th level summoner spells, which are more like 5th level spells for wizards. Very high AC and HP. They tend to work better for a monstrous gish, but they work for normal ones as well. You get to max out the mental stats, especially Charisma, and still be good in melee and cast spells. Particularly if you use the PF paladin, which has a wonderful smite if you have a high charisma (which you should). You can fluff the Eidolon as super magic armor that you are bonded with, similar to shardplate (Way of Kings, Brandon Sanderson).

[Salanmander]

I think the intent of the ability is for the touch spell to only affect a single attack when using Arcane Channeling, or a single full attack if you have that ability. The last sentence of each paragraph implies that the spell would be discharged at the end of the attack normally, or at the end of the round after a full attack, rather than lasting its full duration.

I disagree with your reading of the intent. How does "...then the effect of the spell resolves." imply that the spell is discharged?