Stunned Invisible creature help needed

[Silva Stormrage]

Hey in a bit of a rules dispute. The situation is this, a character right now is invisible as greater invisibility and is fighting a demon alone. The character is stunned and the demon knows his exact square location. Last round the demon hit the character with an attack that requires him to essentially smother his face onto the character.

Does the demon still have to have the 50% miss chance against the character? Considering he essentially knows where he is an the character is still stunned?

So clarity would be nice.

[KillianHawkeye]

Yes, there is still a miss chance, however the DM can ad hoc a reduction.

If a character tries to attack an invisible creature whose location he has pinpointed, he attacks normally, but the invisible creature still benefits from full concealment (and thus a 50% miss chance). A particularly large and slow creature might get a smaller miss chance.

A stunned creature is not helpless, nor are they completely motionless. Imagine that they are swaying in place or something. So just because you know they haven't moved, it doesn't negate the fact that you can't actually see them.

[Morcleon]

Yes. While the demon knows the square, it still cannot see the character in question (unless it has see invisibility or similar) and thus takes a 50% miss chance, by RAW. By RAI, a stunned character doesn't simply freeze and stop moving entirely. It's likely that you may be staggering about or otherwise swaying and being stunned.

Edit: Ninja...

[That_guy_there]

Assuming the demon doesn't have true seeing, scent or other special senses there'd still be the miss chance.

However if the demon is using an ability like improved grab that is triggered off a bite wouldn't suffer from the miss chance due to being in contact with the target.

[Silva Stormrage]

Okay guys thanks for the help.

[Downysole]

Assuming the demon doesn't have true seeing, scent or other special senses there'd still be the miss chance.

However if the demon is using an ability like improved grab that is triggered off a bite wouldn't suffer from the miss chance due to being in contact with the target.

I don't think that scent negates the miss chance offered by not being able to see your opponent. Blindsight (which relies on hearing) does, as well as the other effects you'd mentioned.

[That_guy_there]

I don't think that scent negates the miss chance offered by not being able to see your opponent. Blindsight (which relies on hearing) does, as well as the other effects you'd mentioned.

The SRD says: "A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

so i'd say, yup, you can ignore that miss chance.

[KillianHawkeye]

The SRD says: "A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one."
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#invisibility

so i'd say, yup, you can ignore that miss chance.

If you actually read what the Scent ability does, you would know that it is only useful for tracking or pinpointing the location (within 5 feet) of a creature or other source of odor. It will in no way help against any sort of miss chances.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent

[That_guy_there]

If you actually read what the Scent ability does, you would know that it is only useful for tracking or pinpointing the location (within 5 feet) of a creature or other source of odor. It will in no way help against any sort of miss chances.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#scent

...And again my lack of checking the other sources (in this case the scent description) bites me...

I've always treated pinpointing an invisible creature as accurately getting around the invisibility's concealment. I have reread the decription (which i also had provided a link to) and yup... scent pinpoints, but does not negate the miss chance.

edit: so what does pin-pointing actually accomplish? Not wasting time groping around?

[Tar Palantir]

Precisely. Pinpointing means you know which square (or squares, for larger creatures) the invisible creature occupies. Miss chance still applies, but you don't have to worry about making a perfectly aimed attack to the square next to the guy.

[That_guy_there]

Precisely. Pinpointing means you know which square (or squares, for larger creatures) the invisible creature occupies. Miss chance still applies, but you don't have to worry about making a perfectly aimed attack to the square next to the guy.

Thanks.

Whelp. That sucks for the PCs in one of my current campaigns. They've been able to sort of hold their own against a sadistic Evil NPC whole lives for Greater Invisibility cloaked attacks. Now with the 50% miss chance back they're cooked! :belkar:

[only1doug]

Thanks.

Whelp. That sucks for the PCs in one of my current campaigns. They've been able to sort of hold their own against a sadistic Evil NPC whole lives for Greater Invisibility cloaked attacks. Now with the 50% miss chance back they're cooked! :belkar:

Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), win.

[That_guy_there]

Glitterdust (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm), win.

Yeah, believe it or not that and see invisible are two things this group never, ever remebers to prepare or use. And they've faced this guy like 3 times already. :smallamused:

[Downysole]

Yeah, believe it or not that and see invisible are two things this group never, ever remebers to prepare or use. And they've faced this guy like 3 times already. :smallamused:

You should probably make them aware that their currently used tactics will have to change based on the rules BEFORE you put them against this foe again. Otherwise, they could be in for some bad times and resent you for not warning them.

[only1doug]

You should probably make them aware that their currently used tactics will have to change based on the rules BEFORE you put them against this foe again. Otherwise, they could be in for some bad times and resent you for not warning them.

I agree, I had been considering editing this in to my earlier reply.

[That_guy_there]

You should probably make them aware that their currently used tactics will have to change based on the rules BEFORE you put them against this foe again. Otherwise, they could be in for some bad times and resent you for not warning them.

I probably will, however they constantly fight me on "the rules" as I interpret them (Or in this case "re-interpret them"). Which is probably why i figured pinpointing worked the way i thought it did.
Greater invisiblity has been my go to spell for like 3 campaigns when i want to "challenge" them. Eventually they will figure it out. Or i get more TPKs... either way. :smalltongue:

[Keld Denar]

Yeah, believe it or not that and see invisible are two things this group never, ever remebers to prepare or use. And they've faced this guy like 3 times already. :smallamused:

Glitterstones are single use items from the MIC that produce a Glitterdust effect when thrown. They only cost like, 250-300 gold each. Good purchase for most mid level characters.

[Downysole]

I probably will, however they constantly fight me on "the rules" as I interpret them (Or in this case "re-interpret them"). Which is probably why i figured pinpointing worked the way i thought it did.
Greater invisiblity has been my go to spell for like 3 campaigns when i want to "challenge" them. Eventually they will figure it out. Or i get more TPKs... either way. :smalltongue:

I suggest you let them know exactly what you did here and say how the folks who know the rules like the backs of their hands pointed you to the right section of the SRD so that you could inform yourself properly, and that you decided to go with the RAW.

TPK to an invisible creature is definitely crazy. I mean, why not just run away and do battlefield control or AoE to end the fight? Or dispel...

Heck, Entangle would take care of your problems pretty good...worked in Icewind Dale 2!

[That_guy_there]

TPK to an invisible creature is definitely crazy. I mean, why not just run away and do battlefield control or AoE to end the fight? Or dispel...

Heck, Entangle would take care of your problems pretty good...worked in Icewind Dale 2!

Because they are either: 1] dumb or 2] masochistic/ suicidal.
(They're a frost rager, a monk, and a warlock... so they don't do a lot of planning for some reason...)

They believe that, as PCs they should be able to conquer the encounter... even when they are not properly prepared (Although we do have one guy who hides in the shadows and tires to stay out of melee if at all possible). When I'm playing I'm the voice of reason.... so, when I'm DMing they sometimes take a very "PC" approach to things. (Ie: "ME SMASH!")

I'll warn them but I don't know if they'll heed it. :smallsigh: