Grappling an Invisible Creature?

[Road_Runner]

So, in a situation where the attacker attacks the right square and succeeds on the 50% miss chance to initiate the grapple, and now is grappling the invisible target normally, it seems as though normal rules for total concealment apply,so the attacker will still suffer the 50% miss chance even while maintaining contact with the target. I'm having a hard time picturing this in my head, can anyone help please?

[Silva Stormrage]

So, in a situation where the attacker attacks the right square and succeeds on the 50% miss chance to initiate the grapple, and now is grappling the invisible target normally, it seems as though normal rules for total concealment apply,so the attacker will still suffer the 50% miss chance even while maintaining contact with the target. I'm having a hard time picturing this in my head, can anyone help please?

As the DM in this situation I will actually say that flat no, he does not suffer the 50% miss chance. Just saying :smalltongue:. Of course if someone can offer a good reason why someone grappling can't auto succeed on a touch attack (Assuming he hits the AC as well) I will reconsider.

[Kelb_Panthera]

He only suffers the 50% miss chance for making a melee attack with a light or natural weapon. If you just make a grapple check to deal your unarmed damage there is no miss chance. Even when you've got a hand on somebody, that doesn't really tell you where the rest of the body is, just the part you're holding, and since the enemy is invisible, you don't even know exactly what part of him you are holding.

Edit: Picture it like this. You've got a hold on the enemy's lapel, and you're holding him at arms length, while he's got a grip on the sleeve of the hand you're holding your dagger with. All your senses tell you is that you've got a grip on something made of cloth and that something's got your sleeve. You can guestimate where his head and belly are, but the only thing you can be 90% certain about is the shoulder that keeps bumping your hand. His grip causes the -4 penalty from attacking within the grapple, while the fact that he can still shift his body around in your grip keeps the 50% miss chance granted by his invisibility from going away.

Does that give you a good picture?

[Gotterdammerung]

Kelb is right but to make it even simpler.

If you are making an attack roll, you are going to suffer the 50%.

If you are making a grapple check, you are not going to suffer the 50%.