Battle Sorcerer Rules Question

[Fable Wright]

I'm currently tinkering with a Loredrake Steel Dragon gish, and after looking at some options for what to do with levels currently unfilled by full BAB, full casting levels, I thought about just taking levels in Sorcerer. However, when I thought about this, I remembered the Battle Sorcerer variant, and the 3/4 BAB it had. But then, some odd rules questions came up- namely, what happens to the existing Sorcerer casting? Is it retroactively nerfed? Does it result in +1 level of Sorcerer progression per Battle Sorcerer level? What happens?

Edit: Additional information from Draconomicon page 24: When a dragon takes levels in the Sorcerer class, they add their class level to their effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting ability. Variant classes are clearly made out to be members of that class- Battle Sorcerers are still clearly Sorcerers. This reading implies that dragons get full Sorcerer casting with a medium BAB- However, if variant classes are separate from their base classes, that would mean that the dragon gets a different progression entirely for Battle Sorcerer levels, and possibly opens up odd rules tricks regarding Variant classes, this dilemma aside.

Edit the second: A more complete and detailed version of the question I'm try to ask:



What I am asking is if the Battle Sorcerer variant is still treated as a Sorcerer- as in, still eligible for sorcerer-only spells, feats, prestige classes, and other abilities. If they are, then I am wondering if the rules on page 24 of the Draconomicon- that is, the rule that whenever a Dragon takes levels in the Sorcerer class, rather than gaining a separate progression for the Sorcerer levels, they add their Sorcerer levels to their innate spellcasting ability to determine their Effective Sorcerer level- still applies. Without this rule, whenever a Dragon would gain levels in the Sorcerer class, they would indeed have an entirely separate progression, which the rule was trying to abolish. If the first question asked- whether Battle Sorcerers still counted as Sorcerers- was answered as a "Yes", I am wondering if there are any extenuating rules that I was not aware of that prevent this rule from applying. As far as I am aware, according to the SRD, the "Different enough to warrant a separate progression" rule is under the Multiclassing and Variant Classes section under the Variant Character Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) section. This would mean that if a character had levels in Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, they would not stack. However, as Page 24 of the Draconomicon clearly states, "Although dragons cast spells as sorcerers, they are not members of the sorcerer class...", causing this section to not apply. Normally, this would mean that whenever the Dragon would take levels in the Sorcerer class, they would gain an entirely separate progression from their innate ability. However, there are rules to rectify that following directly afterwards- "A dragon that becomes a member of the Sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting abilities." This means that the Sorcerer's spells per day is replaced by what equates to "+1 level of Sorcerer casting". Again, if a Battle Sorcerer is still a member of the Sorcerer class, this should apply. If they aren't, then that sets up some odd rules precedents- for example, they would not count as Sorcerers for Sorcerer only spells, they would be unable to benefit from +1 level of Sorcerer casting prestige classes, and this would also cause Cloistered Clerics to not be considered Clerics. I am wondering if there is any flaw in my logic, or if somehow the answer to the first and most important question is yes, or if there are any rules that I am not aware of that change the situation. For the purposes of this argument, I am assuming the following: 1. That the Battle Sorcerer class counts as a Sorcerer, and 2. That, as Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer are variants of the same class, they have entirely different progressions of spellcasting, and that the Battle Sorcerer's Spellcasting section only applies to the spellcasting granted by the Battle Sorcerer class- that is, if for some reason a Sorcerer took levels in the Battle Sorcerer class, their normal Sorcerer casting would not suddenly become gimped by the entirely different spellcasting progression of the Battle Sorcerer class. This assumption appears to be supported by the Class Features section of the Variant Character Classes page, where it states that they are "Changes, additions, or subtractions to the class's special features, including spellcasting." This implies that the spellcasting that is altered by a variant is, in fact, and entirely separate progression, and would not apply to existing spellcasting abilities- a Bard that dipped Divine Savage Bard would not suddenly find their normal Bard spellcasting being cast as Divine spells with an altered list. If any of these assumptions are incorrect, please inform me as to why you think so.

[umbergod]

I'm currently tinkering with a Loredrake Steel Dragon gish, and after looking at some options for what to do with levels currently unfilled by full BAB, full casting levels, I thought about just taking levels in Sorcerer. However, when I thought about this, I remembered the Battle Sorcerer variant, and the 3/4 BAB it had. But then, some odd rules questions came up- namely, what happens to the existing Sorcerer casting? Is it retroactively nerfed? Does it result in +1 level of Sorcerer progression per Battle Sorcerer level? What happens?

Battle sorcerer is a variant of the sorcerer class, so you can't have both, just one or the other.

[Fable Wright]

Battle sorcerer is a variant of the sorcerer class, so you can't have both, just one or the other.

Except, you don't have any levels in sorcerer. You have the spellcasting ability of one, but no actual levels in a class and its variants.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Give it levels of Abjurant Champion instead of Sorcerer. Or maybe Eldritch Knight, or even Paragnostic Apostle or Incantatrix. Never any reason to give a monster with racial casting levels in the base casting class if it can qualify for prestige classes. The only exception is with a monster that gets Cleric casting, so a Cleric dip gives it two more domains and Turn Undead.

[Essence_of_War]

Yeah, I think Biff is right on here. If he has racial casting, I would just say give it levels in appropriate gish PrCs.

If it were me, I might take an initiating level or two and dive into Jade Phoenix Dragon Mage. Top with Abjurant Champion to taste :smallbiggrin:

[Roguenewb]

Oh steel dragon. You are soooo good at everything....

I think it's pretty cut and dry the rules here. You add your plain level of casting from steel dragon to battle sorcerer casting. So, if you cast at 3, I think it's three for a wrymling?, and take a level of BS, you now cast as a level 4 BS. Yes, there's a moment when you gain that level and suddenly your casting gets worse, but come on, is that the biggest flavor disconnect you can find in 3.5?

[Fable Wright]

On Gish Prestige Classes: First off, as the Wyrmling starts with only 4 HD, taking only levels in Prestige Classes is off the table. Spellsword is out due to a lack of proficiencies, and Dragonslayer, which grants proficiencies, only comes in at BAB +5. Plus, the Divine Companion Sorcerer ACF is pretty nice, and any class or PrC that grants full caster progression with 3/4 BAB is fine by me for a few levels. Initiator Level + 10 levels of Jade Phoenix Mage costs me 3 caster levels, plus the one already lost to RHD, meaning no chance of pre-epic 9th level spells.

@Roguenewb: The problem with that rules interpretation, though, is how the casting from Effective Sorcerer Levels stack with normal Sorcerer levels on Draconomicon, page 24. It says "A dragon that becomes a member of the Sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting abilities." Not its effective sorcerer level to its actual sorcerer levels- I see this as having the Sorcerer class read as "+1 level of Sorcerer casting", since you're adding your Sorcerer class to the casting that already exists. Can you find anything that would back your interpretation?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Battle Sorcerer is all or nothing, there's no allowance for using only part of the variant. A single level of it will gimp all of your Sorcerer spellcasting.

I'd say LA +2/ Dragon 4/ Sorcerer 2/ Dragonslayer 1/ Abjurant Champion, and you'll still qualify for Spellsword and Eldritch Knight.

Replacing that with Battle Sorcerer will allow you to qualify for Abjurant Champion without the Dragonslayer dip, but you'll still need it later to take either of the other two classes.

Definitely consider including Incantatrix 4 for persistent spell shenanigans, you can still get a +17 BAB at 20th with that. You'll want Item Familiar (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/itemFamiliars.htm) for the invest skill ranks benefits unless you can get a custom item with a high Competence bonus. Be sure to get Ancestral Relic (BoED) and make it a custom Runestaff to put whatever spells you want on it.

[Fable Wright]

Battle Sorcerer is all or nothing, there's no allowance for using only part of the variant. A single level of it will gimp all of your Sorcerer spellcasting.

I'd say LA +2/ Dragon 4/ Sorcerer 2/ Dragonslayer 1/ Abjurant Champion, and you'll still qualify for Spellsword and Eldritch Knight.

Okay. First off, I'm not asking for using only part of the variant. I'm asking whether the rules presented in Draconomicon, page 24, regarding what happens when a dragon takes levels in Sorcerer (including, I would assume, Battle Sorcerer, since any class that grants +1 level of Sorcerer casting advances Battle Sorcerer as well as normal Sorcerers) allows me to use a Dragon's innate, full Sorcerer casting ability to override the gimped Battle Sorcerer casting ability, preferably with a reference or train of logic to support that position. I am not asking about whether or not I should add levels of Incantatrix to the build, nor am I asking how to abuse it. As I stated in my opening post, stating that I already had 7 levels of full BAB, Full casting classes (Dragonslayer 1, Abjurant Champion 5, and Spellsword 1, yes), and I was looking for a not-Sacred Exorcist class that would give full spellcasting progresssion and a medium or better BAB. Not basic optimization tricks that I had already thought of or randomly adding cheese into a build.

[eggs]

I think this question demonstrates that Battle Sorcerer fits the bill as "different enough from the standard class to be treated as a separate progression."

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).
If you take even a single level of Battle Sorcerer, then the referenced tables with regards to your character will undergo the specified modifications, regardless of your racial spellcasting.

[Fable Wright]

I think this question demonstrates that Battle Sorcerer fits the bill as "different enough from the standard class to be treated as a separate progression."
Yes. If a character tried to take levels in both Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, they would have entirely different spellcasting progression for each. That is not the question that is being posed right now. What I am asking is if the Battle Sorcerer variant is still treated as a Sorcerer- as in, still eligible for sorcerer-only spells, feats, prestige classes, and other abilities. If they are, then I am wondering if the rules on page 24 of the Draconomicon- that is, the rule that whenever a Dragon takes levels in the Sorcerer class, rather than gaining a separate progression for the Sorcerer levels, they add their Sorcerer levels to their innate spellcasting ability to determine their Effective Sorcerer level- still applies. Without this rule, whenever a Dragon would gain levels in the Sorcerer class, they would indeed have an entirely separate progression, which the rule was trying to abolish. If the first question asked- whether Battle Sorcerers still counted as Sorcerers- was answered as a "Yes", I am wondering if there are any extenuating rules that I was not aware of that prevent this rule from applying. As far as I am aware, according to the SRD, the "Different enough to warrant a separate progression" rule is under the Multiclassing and Variant Classes section under the Variant Character Classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) section. This would mean that if a character had levels in Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer, they would not stack. However, as Page 24 of the Draconomicon clearly states, "Although dragons cast spells as sorcerers, they are not members of the sorcerer class...", causing this section to not apply. Normally, this would mean that whenever the Dragon would take levels in the Sorcerer class, they would gain an entirely separate progression from their innate ability. However, there are rules to rectify that following directly afterwards- "A dragon that becomes a member of the Sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting abilities." This means that the Sorcerer's spells per day is replaced by what equates to "+1 level of Sorcerer casting". Again, if a Battle Sorcerer is still a member of the Sorcerer class, this should apply. If they aren't, then that sets up some odd rules precedents- for example, they would not count as Sorcerers for Sorcerer only spells, they would be unable to benefit from +1 level of Sorcerer casting prestige classes, and this would also cause Cloistered Clerics to not be considered Clerics. I am wondering if there is any flaw in my logic, or if somehow the answer to the first and most important question is yes, or if there are any rules that I am not aware of that change the situation. For the purposes of this argument, I am assuming the following: 1. That the Battle Sorcerer class counts as a Sorcerer, and 2. That, as Sorcerer and Battle Sorcerer are variants of the same class, they have entirely different progressions of spellcasting, and that the Battle Sorcerer's Spellcasting section only applies to the spellcasting granted by the Battle Sorcerer class- that is, if for some reason a Sorcerer took levels in the Battle Sorcerer class, their normal Sorcerer casting would not suddenly become gimped by the entirely different spellcasting progression of the Battle Sorcerer class. This assumption appears to be supported by the Class Features section of the Variant Character Classes page, where it states that they are "Changes, additions, or subtractions to the class's special features, including spellcasting." This implies that the spellcasting that is altered by a variant is, in fact, and entirely separate progression, and would not apply to existing spellcasting abilities- a Bard that dipped Divine Savage Bard would not suddenly find their normal Bard spellcasting being cast as Divine spells with an altered list. If any of these assumptions are incorrect, please inform me as to why you think so.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

As I already said, Battle Sorcerer causes changes to the entire base Sorcerer spellcasting progression with regards to your character, regardless of whether all of his Sorcerer spellcasting came from the same place. This is of course assuming that Battle Sorcerer = Sorcerer, and that Battle Sorcerer increases your racial spellcasting ability.

However, I do think that your racial Sorcerer spellcasting and any Battle Sorcerer spellcasting would be counted as though from separate classes, per the base rules on class variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm):

Multiclassing And Variant Classes
Multiclassing between variants of the same class is a tricky subject. In cases where a single class offers a variety of paths (such as the totem barbarian or the monk fighting styles), the easiest solution is simply to bar multiclassing between different versions of the same class (just as a character can't multiclass between different versions of specialist wizards). For variants that are wholly separate from the character class—such as the bardic sage or the urban ranger—multiclassing, even into multiple variants of the same class, is probably okay. Identical class features should stack if gained from multiple versions of the same class (except for spellcasting, which is always separate).

[Fable Wright]

As I already said, Battle Sorcerer causes changes to the entire base Sorcerer spellcasting progression with regards to your character, regardless of whether all of his Sorcerer spellcasting came from the same place. This is of course assuming that Battle Sorcerer = Sorcerer, and that Battle Sorcerer increases your racial spellcasting ability.

However, I do think that your racial Sorcerer spellcasting and any Battle Sorcerer spellcasting would be counted as though from separate classes, per the base rules on class variants (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm):

...I do not follow you. So, if I had a Sorcerer 4/Battle Sorcerer 1 for some reason, he would have spells per day of a Battle Sorcerer 4 and a Battle Sorcerer 1?

[umbergod]

...I do not follow you. So, if I had a Sorcerer 4/Battle Sorcerer 1 for some reason, he would have spells per day of a Battle Sorcerer 4 and a Battle Sorcerer 1?

That, or you cast as a 5th level Battle Sorcerer. One or the other I would believe

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

...I do not follow you. So, if I had a Sorcerer 4/Battle Sorcerer 1 for some reason, he would have spells per day of a Battle Sorcerer 4 and a Battle Sorcerer 1?

If you want Battle Sorcerer to equal Sorcerer for stacking spellcasting, then you would use the Battle Sorcerer modifications to the Sorcerer spells/day and spells known tables. Your Dragon with Battle Sorcerer would add his racial spellcasting to his Battle Sorcerer level, and use the Battle Sorcerer spells/day and spells known. This is only if you really want to stack the two, which RAW is not even valid.

Battle Sorcerer does count as Sorcerer for purposes of Sorcerer-exclusive spells, feats, prestige classes, alternate class features, etc.

Per RAW in the section I quoted, they would be counted separately instead of stacking. You would get the normal Sorcerer progression for your racial Sorcerer spellcasting, and you would use the Battle Sorcerer progression for your separate Battle Sorcerer spellcasting.

[Fable Wright]

If you want Battle Sorcerer to equal Sorcerer for stacking spellcasting, then you would use the Battle Sorcerer modifications to the Sorcerer spells/day and spells known tables. Your Dragon with Battle Sorcerer would add his racial spellcasting to his Battle Sorcerer level, and use the Battle Sorcerer spells/day and spells known. This is only if you really want to stack the two, which RAW is not even valid.

Battle Sorcerer does count as Sorcerer for purposes of Sorcerer-exclusive spells, feats, prestige classes, alternate class features, etc.

Per RAW in the section I quoted, they would be counted separately instead of stacking. You would get the normal Sorcerer progression for your racial Sorcerer spellcasting, and you would use the Battle Sorcerer progression for your separate Battle Sorcerer spellcasting.
Okay. First off, you are correct: Taken in a vacuum, using just the rules in the SRD, a Dragon that takes levels in Battle Sorcerer has an entirely separate progression from its normal sorcerer casting. However, using the same rules in the SRD, a Dragon that takes levels in normal Sorcerer gains an entirely separate progression from the spellcasting derived from their age categories, as spellcasting does not stack. However, there are specific rules in Draconomicon, on page 24, that overwrite this generality: "A dragon that becomes a member of the Sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting abilities." As we have established, a Battle Sorcerer is a Sorcerer. This means that a dragon that gains a level in the Battle Sorcerer class has gained a level of Battle Sorcerer, with what would normally be a different, inferior version of Sorcerer spellcasting. However, because of the specific rule in Draconomicon, instead of gaining the inferior progression of a Battle Sorcerer, the dragon instead adds this sorcerer level to his Effective Sorcerer Level (and not the opposite; the wording states that the Sorcerer level is added to the Effective Sorcerer Level casting, rather than the Effective Casting being added onto the Sorcerer casting) to determine how well it casts spells. Going through this process with a Loredrake Steel Dragon, we have a just-about-to-level Dragon with 2 LA and 4 RHD. Loredrake with the Steel Dragon's innate 1st level Effective Sorcerer level gives it the casting ability of a 3rd level Sorcerer. A Sorcerer level is added- however, instead of gaining a different progression, as Spellcasting never stacks, the rule on page 24 of Draconomicon comes into effect, and the Dragon never gains a distinct spellcasting ability from his level- instead, his Effective Sorcerer level increases by 1, and the Dragon gains a d4 HD and a Familiar. Going through this process with Battle Sorcerer instead of Sorcerer, we have 2 LA and 4 RHD and an ESL of 3. We add the Battle Sorcerer level. Normally, we would add a different spellcasting progression, as Spellcasting never stacks. However, the rule on page 24 of Draconomicon comes into effect, and the distinct spellcasting ability is never gained- instead, his Effective Sorcerer level increases by 1, and the Dragon gains a d8 HD and a Familiar. Does any part of this process violate RAW?

[eggs]

Even using the generous reading for whether the levels would stack, Battle Sorcerer pretty explicitly strips spells per day and spells known from the default sorcerer casting, as BF quoted a few posts up.

[Fable Wright]

Even using the generous reading for whether the levels would stack, Battle Sorcerer pretty explicitly strips spells per day and spells known from the default sorcerer casting, as BF quoted a few posts up.
Battle Sorcerer does indeed strip spells per day and spells known from the spellcasting ability that it grants. I am positing that since it does not grant the spellcasting ability, then spells per day and spells known are not stripped. Let's take a similar example- We'll take a Bard 10, who decides to dip Divine Bard 1 for his next level. Divine Bard offers a different Spellcasting ability than bard- do the 10 levels of normal Bard spellcasting suddenly become Divine spells that are Wisdom based? Or how about a Bard that takes a level in Savage bard- does his regular Bard spellcasting change according to the Savage Bard modifications to the Savage Bard's spellcasting?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Battle Sorcerer does indeed strip spells per day and spells known from the spellcasting ability that it grants. I am positing that since it does not grant the spellcasting ability, then spells per day and spells known are not stripped. Let's take a similar example- We'll take a Bard 10, who decides to dip Divine Bard 1 for his next level. Divine Bard offers a different Spellcasting ability than bard- do the 10 levels of normal Bard spellcasting suddenly become Divine spells that are Wisdom based? Or how about a Bard that takes a level in Savage bard- does his regular Bard spellcasting change according to the Savage Bard modifications to the Savage Bard's spellcasting?

Your examples are explicitly addressed in the RAW, they're counted as separate spellcasting abilities as though from separate classes. They do not stack.

Per the section you continue to reference from page 24 of the Draconomicon:
"Although dragons cast spells as sorcerers, they are not members of the sorcerer class and receive none of that class’s benefits (except for spellcasting).... A dragon that becomes a member of the sorcerer class adds any actual sorcerer levels it has to its effective sorcerer level to determine its spellcasting ability, but uses its actual sorcerer level and character level to determine its other class abilities."

Should you gain levels in the sorcerer class, they would be added to your racial effective sorcerer level to determine the level of your spellcasting ability. You would still use your actual sorcerer level and character level to determine your other class abilities. Neither one is progressing the other, they're explicitly added together to form a sum total. Your effective level in Sorcerer and its casting progression is combined with your level in Battle Sorcerer and its modifications to the casting progression to determine your total spellcasting capability. You're not going to find an excuse to ignore the drawbacks of Battle Sorcerer here.