Speed challenge!

[killianh]

Before it crosses your collective minds this is not just another "please pimp my PC" thread. Me and a few friends were trying to create a speed attacking character without jumping into the madness of TO (I saw a thread that could do 1496 attacks a round but couldn't find the link again (bonus points for finding it)) but the problem we kept running into was that either the build lacked the offensive power to make the attacks worth it, or were getting too many attacks to really end up as playable.

The challenge dear playground is to pick up where we failed. To make as offensive of a character with as many attacks as possible, within reason (i.e less than 50 attacks\1000 damage per round) the closest we got to what we were hoping for was a Gatling tripper\ubercharger but it seemed to lack any kind of flavour to the build.

Suggest what you can, and feel free to add items to complete the build. 20 levels, wealth 760,000=flailing doom!

[JeminiZero]

Look up the Mouthpick Weapon from Lords of Madness. As written, it grants iterative attacks when wielded with a bite attack, regardless of whether the bite is your primary natural weapon.

Now polymorph into a 12-headed hydra. Assuming your build has at least 16 BAB, you get 4 iteratives, so a total of 12*4 = 48 attacks per round.

Of course its expensive to enchant 12 different mouthpick weapons seperately, so you should give each the basic +1 Mouthpick, and then use Greater Magic Weapon to bring them to +5.


flailing doom!

If you use a Heavy Flail :smalltongue: (or similiar bludgeoning weapon) for each mouthpick, you can stack on Greater Might Wallop on each weapon so that it does damage as colossal size (or 6d8 damage per hit, plus 5 enhancement and strength bonus). To buff this many weapons at once, you either need a friendly reach-chain arcane caster, or you have to be one yourself (which also provides polymorph for Hydra transformation).

[White_Drake]

A swiftblade dipping barbarian for Whirling Frenzy gets another two attacks (although it is not at all optimized).

[VGLordR2]

Wasn't there a weapon that you could tie into your hair for extra attacks? IIRC, the text did not put a limitation on how many of them you could have in your hair, allowing for arbitrarily large numbers of attacks. I think it was called a braidsword or something like that.

[ThiagoMartell]

Wasn't there a weapon that you could tie into your hair for extra attacks? IIRC, the text did not put a limitation on how many of them you could have in your hair, allowing for arbitrarily large numbers of attacks. I think it was called a braidsword or something like that.

Braidblade.
Also, Crescent Knife doubles your normal amount of attacks.

[JKTrickster]

Braidblade.
Also, Crescent Knife doubles your normal amount of attacks.

Oooh really? Where does that come from?

I was actually going to suggest Lightning Maces Kukris - at a low optimization level, it only grants a high number of attacks instead of an infinite number of attacks. Mix with Blood in the Water stance and you're golden :smallamused:

[RFLS]

Get a pair of aptitude kukris as your weapons. Get the whole two-weapon fighting chain. Pick up the lighting mace feat and improved critical (kukri). Take disciple of dispator to level 8.

For added fun, pick up roundabout kick from complete warrior.

For added added fun, take weapon finesse and see if you can persuade your DM to allow you to take the Dancing Dervish feat from pathfinder. Now pick up combat reflexes.

Assuming I haven't missed something, all of the above nets you somewhere around 11 attacks per round, not counting extra attacks from roundabout kicks, or stacks of lightning mace attacks. It's probably closer to 12 attacks per round. With combat reflexes, you should probably end up with an extra 2 or 3.

A trick I'm not entirely sure about with this build is to take the fighter ACF that gives you dex to damage when an opponent is flatfooted, boost the heck out of your hide skill, and then pick up the Hide in Plain Sight class feature with either a level in Shadowdancer or a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. You should, if you do it correctly, be able to full attack a creature (assuming low Spot checks), take the -20 to hide, and count them as flatfooted, dealing your Dex mod twice in damage, before crit confirmation.

For added cheese, make your kukris out of kaorti. Go nuts.

[JKTrickster]

Get a pair of aptitude kukris as your weapons. Get the whole two-weapon fighting chain. Pick up the lighting mace feat and improved critical (kukri). Take disciple of dispator to level 8.

For added fun, pick up roundabout kick from complete warrior.

For added added fun, take weapon finesse and see if you can persuade your DM to allow you to take the Dancing Dervish feat from pathfinder. Now pick up combat reflexes.

Assuming I haven't missed something, all of the above nets you somewhere around 11 attacks per round, not counting extra attacks from roundabout kicks, or stacks of lightning mace attacks. It's probably closer to 12 attacks per round. With combat reflexes, you should probably end up with an extra 2 or 3.

A trick I'm not entirely sure about with this build is to take the fighter ACF that gives you dex to damage when an opponent is flatfooted, boost the heck out of your hide skill, and then pick up the Hide in Plain Sight class feature with either a level in Shadowdancer or a Continuous Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. You should, if you do it correctly, be able to full attack a creature (assuming low Spot checks), take the -20 to hide, and count them as flatfooted, dealing your Dex mod twice in damage, before crit confirmation.

For added cheese, make your kukris out of kaorti. Go nuts.

This is basically the Lightning Maces Kukris trick in a nutshell.

However it IS known to get an infinite number of attacks per round.....

By taking some of the steps out, you can turn it down to about 40-50.

[Randomguy]

Well, here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872202/3.5_World_Record_Thread) is the world record thread, which includes a speed record for going faster than the speed of light. The same build also holds a damage record.

Let's see...
Build: Transmuter 10/Incantatrix 10.

Get Reach Spell, Chain spell, extend spell and Arcane thesis (Dancing Blade) and some metamagic rods, if you want. Persistent spell would also be nice, for a defensive spell.

Shapechange into a Chronotryn (or a choker).
Cast Reach Chain Dancing Blade (a 6th level spell), affecting 21 Gargantuan weapons of your choice, possibly reach weapons for a bit of reach.
Use your second action, granted by being a Chronotryn (or a choker), to cast it again, on 21 more weapons.
Next, cast Quickened Steeldance (also 6th level) on two Gargantuan greatswords.

And that's 44 swords hovering around you, ready to slice and dice. Each only gets 1 attack though, so someone with full BAB polymorphed into a hydra with the right feats and weapons gets more attacks, but your swords attack on their own, and you can always repeat the combination next round.

If you use greatswords, then that's 352d6 damage per round after one round of casting, (8d6 per sword) or double that if you add on weapons next round. Oh, and you add your Int to every attack.

A reach chained greater magic weapon to boost damage a bit would help.

An upside of this is that you can still do other wizardly things, or do wizardly things while your cloud of swords slices people to bits. (speaking of which, cloud of knives would be a nice addition). A downside is that you need to be in melee for your swords to hit, so a healthy coating of buffs and some defences against dispelling would be useful.

[ThiagoMartell]

Well, here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872202/3.5_World_Record_Thread) is the world record thread, which includes a speed record for going faster than the speed of light. The same build also holds a damage record.

Chuck is illegal post errata, unfortunately

[RFLS]

However it IS known to get an infinite number of attacks per round.....


How does this get an infinite number of attacks per round? Well...let me rephrase that. Unless I'm massively misreading the rules, this will never get an infinite number of attacks per round.

At level 20, you have 7 attacks per round from BAB and TWF.

Your crit threat range is 9-20. This is a 3/5 chance of a threat occuring, meaning that you will get (3/5)*7 attacks. We'll assume that any attack you threaten with, you also confirm the crit for. This now gives you 2 attacks per crit threat, or 2*7*(3/5), or 8.4 oh sweet mother of Zeus on average it is infinite.

Excuse me while I remove the foot I have so carefully lodged in my mouth.

[Campbellk8105]

It's mildly blah but Thri-kreen master thrower.

Use palm throw with halfling skip-rocks. Get TWF chain. Using epic for simplicity sake get perfect TWF.

So thats 20 attacks, use double toss, so that makes it 40. If they hit a target they can ricochet to another target, resulting in another 40. So that is 80 attack between 2 guys. Also using Two with one Blow, all 40 original attacks can also hit the adjacent guy at a -4, still being able to ricochet off of one another as normal. So that makes 160 total between 2 guys unless I'm doing something wrong. (Could be, I'm tired and need sleep.)

[Randomguy]

How does this get an infinite number of attacks per round? Well...let me rephrase that. Unless I'm massively misreading the rules, this will never get an infinite number of attacks per round.

At level 20, you have 7 attacks per round from BAB and TWF.

Your crit threat range is 9-20. This is a 3/5 chance of a threat occuring, meaning that you will get (3/5)*7 attacks. We'll assume that any attack you threaten with, you also confirm the crit for. This now gives you 2 attacks per crit threat, or 2*7*(3/5), or 8.4 oh sweet mother of Zeus on average it is infinite.

Excuse me while I remove the foot I have so carefully lodged in my mouth.

IIRC, the linchpin of the build is a trick, magic item, maneuver or stance of some sort that makes every attack a threat. Or something like that.

Also, I think your math is off somehow: Total number of attacks = Initial # of attacks + Extra attacks from Threats + Extra attacks from threats on your extra attacks. And so on.

So, 7 + 3/5*7 + 3/5*3/5*7 and so on. Hey, a Geometric Series!
So 7 + 4.2 + 2.52 + 1.51 + 0.91 = 16.14 attacks per round. Not infinite, but higher than normal.

I think the mistake you made 3/5*7 attacks, and not 3/5*7 extra attacks.

Unless I messed something up. I should really be asleep about now.

[Siosilvar]

-snip-
Assume you can hit on a 9.
3 in 5 attack rolls (9+, assuming the stating threat range is correct) are critical threats and give you an extra attack via Lightning Maces.
3 in 5 of those threats confirm and give an extra attack via Roundabout Kick, which is 9/25 extra attacks per attack roll.

That adds up to 0.96 extra attacks per attack made, assuming you hit on a 9 as well. If you hit on a 7, you get 1.02 extra attacks per attack you make, and thus tend to go nonterminating. You won't do it every time, since you can miss, but on average you make more extra attacks than you just rolled. Your normal full attack is 4, then you do 4.08 more, followed by 4.162, and so on.

This sort of thing, however, can have unforseen consequences (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457).

[RFLS]

IIRC, the linchpin of the build is a trick, magic item, maneuver or stance of some sort that makes every attack a threat. Or something like that.

Also, I think your math is off somehow: Total number of attacks = Initial # of attacks + Extra attacks from Threats + Extra attacks from threats on your extra attacks. And so on.

So, 7 + 3/5*7 + 3/5*3/5*7 and so on. Hey, a Geometric Series!
So 7 + 4.2 + 2.52 + 1.51 + 0.91 = 16.14 attacks per round. Not infinite, but higher than normal.

I think the mistake you made 3/5*7 attacks, and not 3/5*7 extra attacks.

Unless I messed something up. I should really be asleep about now.

You messed something up. From your first 7 attacks, you get an extra 8.4. Those extra 8.4 attacks are also subject to crit threats, lightning mace, and roundabout kick. They generate 8.4*(3/5)*2 extra attacks. Your mistake came by ignoring the stated assumption that all crit threats are confirmed, which procs roundabout kick, generating that *2., meaning your multiplier for bonus attacks is 1.2.

Simply put, if you confirm all your crits, and you crit 60% of the time, you get 120% of the previous set of attacks.

[Randomguy]

You messed something up. From your first 7 attacks, you get an extra 8.4. Those extra 8.4 attacks are also subject to crit threats, lightning mace, and roundabout kick. They generate 8.4*(3/5)*2 extra attacks. Your mistake came by ignoring the stated assumption that all crit threats are confirmed, which procs roundabout kick, generating that *2., meaning your multiplier for bonus attacks is 1.2.

Simply put, if you confirm all your crits, and you crit 60% of the time, you get 120% of the previous set of attacks.

Ooooh. Now I get it. I misread your earlier post (and didn't include roundabout kick, since I didn't understand how it would be included until I remembered Aptitude weapon the next day).