[PF] A Wizard that can fight. :)

[ranger557]

Hi all, I have been wanting to make a transmuter wizard to be able to do all the cool mage tricks (like Blasting, BFC, Utility, Debuffing, and Buffing), but also able to fight back when he has to. I remember in 3.5 the polymorph spells were pretty powerful to help you out there.

However, this is a Pathfinder game and sadly all the polymorph spells are not as powerful in giving you the smack down you need when you need it. So my question is what would be a good build for a wizard that can fight? My concept is based off the fact that this guy didn't know magic and he was actually going to be a militiamen. However, during an attack he realized he could do magic and then continued to pursue in training for it after the incident.

So would a full normal transmuter Wizard succeed at this? Or would a Wizard/Eldritch Knight be better to portray this?

We are playing a forgotten realms campaign. So I was thinking of getting the militia regional feat to get proficiency in all MW to portray his little time in training to be a militiamen and I can enter EK asap after level 6 from wizard. Either case I am going for the militia feat to portray his background and flavor.

We are level 3 as of now and using 15 pt buy. Also only Pathfinder books are allowed. Here are the two builds I thought of. Tell me what would be better for a Wizard that can fight. Thanks all.

Human Transmuter 3 (all wizard til 20)

Str: 10
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 17
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Feats: additional traits( eyes & ears of the city, reactionary), toughness, and Spellcasting Prodigy. Regional feat: Militia

__________________________________________________ ____________

Human Transmuter 3 (after level 6 of wizard will go into EK)

Str: 12
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Feats: additional traits( eyes & ears of the city, magical knack), toughness, and Spellcasting Prodigy. Regional feat: Militia

[ericgrau]

I'd go either eldritch knight or magus. If you want to actually swing a weapon those physical stats are rather pitiful. I'd make them primary and get barely enough int to cast. Say 13 minimum so you can boost it to 19 much later with a magic item for 9th level spells.

Look into the pathfinder feats and talents meant for mixes giving them (and only them) things like +2 caster level or bonus damage.

If you want to melee you probably want armor which means arcane spell failure. Pathfinder has arcane armor training to reduce this. Mithril helps too as usual. Another trick is to use hour/level buffs and 10 min/level buffs while your armor is off then put it back on. Besides that with buff spells like haste or bull's strength you can cast them during the buffing round to have a big advantage most of the time, and the rest of the time at least you didn't waste a combat round. For 1st level spells like enlarge person or protection from evil you might eat the 50 gp and get potions.

While most of the time you'll only have time for haste, at high levels look into a 2nd buff spell in case you get 2 rounds, like mirror image or displacement. Don't waste combat rounds on anything but haste though, and then only if you didn't get a buff round to cast it.

I'd run an ideal day like this:
1. Hour/level buffs in the morning.
2. 10 min/level buffs before entering a dungeon/house/etc.
3. min/level and round/level buff(s) in the buffing round(s) (if any), ideally haste
4. Crowd control spell to divide foes (sleep, web, sleet storm, solid fog, wall of force). If the terrain disallows it for some reason and you didn't get a buffing round, then cast haste.
5. Attack.

On many days some steps will be missing, 2-4 most often.

[Serafina]

I would go with a Magus as well.

Now you may say "well i don't get all the nifty high-level and utility spells". Which is true - but you can also take Use Magic Device for those.
If that is not enough, i have just the build for you.

Take Staff Magus. The real benefit here is that you can recharge magical staffs by spending arcana points instead of spells. That means that you can recharge staffs with spells of a higher level than you are able to cast, up to and including 9th-level spells. That is somewhat dependent on having custom-made staffs, so i'd recommend taking the appropriate item creation feat.

Now a Staff is not a particular good weapon for a Magus - it provides no crit rating, which is one of the main benefits of spellstrike. However, no one says that you actually have to fight with that staff (you don't even lose proficiency). So you are still fighting with a Rapier or Scimitar.

Ah, but don't you lose armor class when you don't use your Staff? True - but there is a solution to that as well. Take the Hexcrafter-Archetype and take the Prehensile Hair Hex (you don't actually have to use these visuals if you don't like them). That gives you an extra hand - that can't hold weapons, but it CAN cast spells.
Now grab your staff in one hand, and a Scimitar in the other. Attack with the Scimitar while still enjoying the armor class from the staff.

If you want to, you can even grab Two-Weapon Fighting and attack with both Staff and Sword at the same time! You can further add Defending or Guardian properties to your staff to enjoy even more protection (in exchange for not hitting anything with it, but that's okay).

You can still use Spell Combat (you do have one hand free, your hair) and Spellstrike (you can still cast spells) with this method. It looks cool - Gandalf does it. You get access to powerful utility spells of ALL classes with your Staff. What else do you want?

An alternative build is to take a few levels in Alchemist and take the Vestigal Arm mutation. That has the advantage of working all day long, but you need to dip two levels into another class.

[ranger557]

I want to say thanks for the advice so far, I appreciate it. However, I don't want to go magus and doesn't fit my concept. So to clarify some things, this is what I am trying to accomplish.

15 point buy, this is the point buy I need to use for my stats NOT anything else.

My character is base off a concept of mine and I want him to be a caster focusedmage(wiz or sor) but can be able to fight when he has to. Also he will be human nothing else.

Therefore, I am still debating what spellcaster class to use, wizard or sorcerer. Also this is why I am asking, should I just focus on Int and don't have to worry about physical stats to fight because I can use my form spells to help out? Or should I distribute my stats more evenly to help me when I get into combat? That is why I am asking if I should go the normal model or get that regional feat for the proficiencies?

Thanks, hopefully that clears things up.

[ericgrau]

If you want to be a caster first then ya int goes first. Or if you're very careful about spell selection and choose things without saves you could pull off a moderate int. A high int / low physical does make it a lot harder to fight either way. With polymorph changes I'm not sure PF has a way to actually replace your physical stats without going druid. Instead sor/wiz spells only provide a bonus; a decent bonus but still not a replacement.

Single use abilities like spell storing weapons and rage are handy for someone who only fights briefly. Expendable items like magic arrows and poison too. I like the scabbard of vigor (APG) because you temporarily get a +3 to +5 weapon for only 1,800 gp and basically no actions. A spell storing weapon drawn from a scabbard of vigor could do obscene damage for a single blow and still do pretty well for 1-2 more rounds after that. I might even go two weapon fighting to exploit it further. Or a double weapon so you still have a free hand to cast (temporarily hold the weapon in 1 hand). Dunno how you draw a double weapon from 2 scabbards though. Armor is less important if you only fight briefly so you might stick with mage armor and skip the armor spell failure feats. Do still consider defensive buffs like false life though.

Either sorcerer or wizard could work fine. Ideally you'd go full caster and get enough temporary bonuses to make up for poor BAB when you do finally attack, but that might be hard to pull off. Besides eldritch knight if you go sorcerer you can get dragon disciple. It has lost caster levels but you lose less in pre-requisites so caster level is the same as EK until very high levels (you might want to stop at DD 8). It has nice melee bonuses and even for casting alone it's better than EK in the short run. EK has a very nice capstone though if your campaign goes that far.

[Eldariel]

I suggest coldly dropping to 7 Cha. I'd also consider 7-8 Wis; it sucks but you need some points to make your concept work and 15pb is fairly restrictive.

Besides, I'm playing a PF Society Wizard (Conjurer 3) with 7 Str and 7 Cha and have had no problems thus far; though I've had to succeed Diplomacy and Bluff with no ranks and those stats but Charm Person and good rolls have covered me thus far. It looks ugly but you'll make do.


If you intend on melee combat, you'll need 14-16 Strength; since you have Wizard BAB early I'd want at least 16. You'd also want high Dex but unfortunately I believe 14 is the highest you can afford. Int should probably be 16-18; racial bonus helps here. Con should be 14; the Favored Class bonuses can help you out here tho. And you could start with 1 level in Ranger (the preferred entry class for Eldritch Knight).

Overall, you do need Base Attack Bonus for melee in Pathfinder. As such, I suggest a veritable Gish:
Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10 (ultimately Ranger 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10; barely fulfilling the goals of 9th level spells and 16 BAB by level 20, and the last Ranger-level can be taken on 20 so you'll have 9th level spells by 19)

This has other boons like giving you a massive skill list and a lot of skill points too, and Ranger really helps your starting HP. You will lose two caster levels but this is really the only way you can achieve longterm combat capability as a Wizard in PF as it's hard to make up for all the missing BAB without Divine Power or Polymorph.

[grarrrg]

With polymorph changes I'm not sure PF has a way to actually replace your physical stats without going druid.
Synthesist Archetype Summoner is the only way to replace your Physicals in PF.
Druid Wildshape is now based on the Beast Shape spell, so you either get +Dex/-Str, or +Str/-Dex.


Hi all, I have been wanting to make a transmuter wizard to be able to do all the cool mage tricks

So would a full normal transmuter Wizard succeed at this? Or would a Wizard/Eldritch Knight be better to portray this?

So I was thinking of getting the militia regional feat to get proficiency in all MW
We are level 3 as of now and using 15 pt buy. Also only Pathfinder books are allowed.

I don't want to go magus and doesn't fit my concept.
My character is base off a concept of mine and I want him to be a caster focusedmage(wiz or sor) but can be able to fight when he has to. Also he will be human nothing else.
Therefore, I am still debating what spellcaster class to use, wizard or sorcerer.

Even though Polymorphing is nerfed in PF, it can still be handy to boost/rearrange your Stats.

15 Point buy on a Gish is harsh due to all the stats you 'want' to have, but can't.

I have 3 recommendations for you.
A: Weapon Finesse Wizard. This lets you focus on Dex/Con/Int, and dump Wis/Cha. Str should stay around 10 though, you don't need the damage bonus, but you don't really want a penalty either. The high Dex will also help any Ray spells you may cast.
If only you could wear armor...*cough* Haramaki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) *cough*

B: Sorcerer > Dragon Disciple, you'll have to take the Draconic bloodline, and your Bab will be worse than with EK, but you'll (eventually) get +4 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int from the DD levels. This will ease your Point Buy some. You also get a decent Natural Armor score (tops out at +7) to make up for the fact you can't wear armor *cough* Haramaki *cough*
Even though you must take Draconic, you 'can' do a Crossblooded (www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/crossblooded) archetype and throw on a 2nd Bloodline (Human Favored Bonus offsets one of the downsides to crossblooded). For a decent list of secondary bloodlines see Suggestion C.

C: Straight Sorcerer (and/or Eldritch Knight)
This opens up your Bloodline options, Abyssal (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/abyssal-bloodline) and Orc (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/orc-bloodline) both have scaling Str bonuses starting at level 9. Orc is the more 'gish' of the two, giving a Natural Armor bonus and Immune Fear. Due to the scaling nature of the Str bonus, these are recommended for Straight Sorcerer (or Crossblood Dragon Disciple).
If going EK, Aberrant (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/aberrant-bloodline) Bloodline is the best choice, the Arcana makes ALL Polymorph spells you cast last 50% longer. Alternately, the Warped (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo---sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/warped) Wildbloodline of Aberrant gives a random bonus whenever you Polymorph someone.
WHAT'S THAT OVER THERE! *cough* Haramaki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) *cough*


Also, for Sorc builds (need Cha), any Bloodline ability (but NOT arcana) can be taken through the Eldritch Heritage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) feats.

[Crasical]

WHAT'S THAT OVER THERE! *cough* Haramaki (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/armor/eastern-armor-and-shields) *cough*

Really? Haramaki? Not the infinitely classier silk ceremonial armor?

[ericgrau]

Crossblooded has a huge penalty in the form of delayed spell progreession. Human bonus spells only affect the lower levels. You can take the eldritch heritage feat chain instead to get bloodline powers 2 levels late.

[Peat]

Would going mainly as an archer for your fighting needs be an option?

It

a) Opens up Arcane Archer, which is a useful class to fill in the gaps after you've been through Eldritch Knight

b) Keeps you a bit further out of harm's way

c) Would seem to be slightly lighter on the ability requirements. Only slightly mind...

Another possible option, if you're looking at PrClassing your way merrily to Gishdom from Sorcerer, is Spherewalker. The requirements are not the kindest, but it's full spellcasting on a three/quarter BAB, and there's some useful stuff - including the luck retroactive bonus of +4, which can be used up to your Cha times a day.

[grarrrg]

If you are considering PrC's check out my PrC Mini-Guide!
Also, check the 3rd post in that thread (the PrC Mini-Guide being the second), for a quick breakdown of PrC's that advance Casting!
Hint: Spherewalker is the _only_ full Arcane PrC with better than 1/2 Bab. But if you're willing to drop a casting level or 2 your options really expand.


Really? Haramaki? Not the infinitely classier silk ceremonial armor?

Haramaki is a tenth of the price and a quarter of the weight.
(but we are talking about 3 / 30 gold and 1 / 4 pounds so...)

[Crasical]

You can't put a price tag on style, my friend.

[grarrrg]

You can't put a price tag on style, my friend.

Yes you can.

30 - 3 = 27

Style costs 27 gold.
:smalltongue:

[Hylas]

Yes you can.

30 - 3 = 27

Style costs 27 gold.
:smalltongue:
And 3 lbs. :smallwink:

I always played around with the multimorph (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo---wizard-archetypes/arcane-discoveries/multimorph) as an idea for a transmuter, but using polymorph any object (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object) could lead to some cheesy results and a few tossed books at infringing players, and personally, I wouldn't be able to resist buying a scroll at 5th level.

If you're looking for a hybrid caster/fighter then I would recommend the magus. A lot of people have had a lot of success with it. (Not to mention certain combinations of feats at high levels can make shocking grasp into a cantrip).

For a more full-caster experience I highly recommend wizard or sorcerer with eldritch knight. If you have that one starting feat to give you all martial proficiencies and can avoid the dip into fighter then go for it. The BAB will help immensely and will boost your ray spells and polymorphing if you choose to do that.