(PF) Ranger/Shadowdancer with Reach

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Making one as a NPC for a campaign. The goal here is a hit and run, skirmishing, recurring character. Im looking to build an effective bounty hunter/ Assassin. Should he survive a few encounters, he will end up being some help to the party in the future... so ability to survive is somewhat important, plot wise... though not necessary.

Here is what i have thus far...

20 point buy, human
Ranger 5/Shadowdancer 4/ Ranger 6:

STR 15 (17)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 14
WIS 12
CHA 7

(maybe an 8 in CHA, and a 13 in INT, to help with UMD?)

traits:
armor expert
dangerously curious? (wand of darkness seems useful...)

1 Dodge
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Mobility
5 Spring Attack
7 Furious Focus
9 Iron Will
11 Whirlwind Attack
13 Improved Initiative
15 Toughness (maybe improved unarmed strike, just in case?

Ranger Style (two handed)
2 Power Attack
6(10) Cleave
10(14) Great Cleave

Favored Enemy

Human (+6 by level 14)
Outsider, Evil
Construct? (doesn't really matter much)

equipment: glaive guisarme, longsword, spiked gauntlet, armor spikes?, dagger(s), light armor (Studded Leather >Chainshirt >Mithril breastplate).

wand of darkness, wand of longstrider, wand of hunter's howl.

I was planning on using a two handed sword, but after a moment of consideration, i added in a reach weapon, spiked gauntlet, and armor spikes. That extra 5 ft of reach, plus a wand of longstrider will keep me away, and using Spring Attack tactics, I should be able to get in and out of melee quickly and efficiently. obviously the spiked gauntlet and the spiked armor is in case anyone manages to get within my guard. This also gets me a bit more use out of combat reflexes, which would otherwise be a feat tax.

HiPS gives me another trick, and I can't be targeted if i am not detected. The wand of darkness may help in this regard.

Shadowjump will also be useful in the mobility department, hence staying in shadowdancer past the usual 2 or 3 level dip.

The shadow companion will be great for scouting out the party, for flanking, and of course, for the no save 1d6 STR damage.

I would have preferred to be DEX based, but STR is where its at, so whatever.

I feel this ought to be an effective build. Furious Focus seems like a good bet, since i am likely to only be getting one attack (or two, with cleave, etc.). I could have probably fit in Improved Trip, etc, but getting reliable CMB numbers is somewhat hard with such a build lacking in feats.

So do you all feel this is a sufficiently dangerous foe? (I like this character well enough, i might run him as a PC sometime.)

Any advice or insights would be much appreciated!

[Gwendol]

Couple of questions:
Why the point buy? I'd use elite array for this type of NPC.

My next question is how efficient this character will be as a striker? While mobile, and the ability to vanish from view is in place, it looks like the damage potential is lacking, thus reducing the NPC from a threat to a nuisance. Even with max PA at level 15 you only get +32 to the damage roll, +38 vs humans, for the one strike.

I'd suggest a daring outlaw build instead, using a dark template for HiPS, or taking the 1 level shadowdancer dip needed.

My final question is regarding equipment: a character of this high level is expected to have accumulated considerable wealth, and some of it in gear. Choosing the right gear could let you free up some feats.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Couple of questions:
Why the point buy? I'd use elite array for this type of NPC.

My next question is how efficient this character will be as a striker? While mobile, and the ability to vanish from view is in place, it looks like the damage potential is lacking, thus reducing the NPC from a threat to a nuisance. Even with max PA at level 15 you only get +32 to the damage roll, +38 vs humans, for the one strike.

I'd suggest a daring outlaw build instead, using a dark template for HiPS, or taking the 1 level shadowdancer dip needed.

My final question is regarding equipment: a character of this high level is expected to have accumulated considerable wealth, and some of it in gear. Choosing the right gear could let you free up some feats.

why point buy?
Because it's a recurring NPC, and I may very well use this build in the future for myself.

as a mobile striker, I don't see how this is "bad" damage. It sure isn't a full attacking barbarian, but it certainly doesn't seem bad to me.

as for Daring Outlaw... this is Pathfinder, not 3.5.

As for gear... this character is meant to be a recurring NPC opponent... the gear will change depending on level. Though this character is statted out to level 15, he will be starting at level 6.

[Gwendol]

Not "bad" damage in itself, but considering that you are building it to be a hit-and-run striker it could use some help. Consider the +32 damage roll: vs, say, 10th level PC's with at least +2 CON bonuses (a conservative estimate, to say the least). From CON alone they have 20 HP, and with an average 5 HP/level from HD they have 70 HP.
This is the basis for my assessment of fairly light damage.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Not "bad" damage in itself, but considering that you are building it to be a hit-and-run striker it could use some help. Consider the +32 damage roll: vs, say, 10th level PC's with at least +2 CON bonuses (a conservative estimate, to say the least). From CON alone they have 20 HP, and with an average 5 HP/level from HD they have 70 HP.
This is the basis for my assessment of fairly light damage.

I agree... but how do I get more damage than that? Only way I can think of is going Fighter instead, for Weapon Training and Specialization. Add in Gloves of Dueling... +3 attack/+5 damage... which, against humans, I would be getting +4 attack/damage. (assuming level 5 in either fighter or ranger.)

Vital Strike doesn't work with Spring Attack, Rogue (scout archetype) is easily defeated by Uncanny Dodge/immunity to sneak attack damage/critical hits.

I also wouldn't be able to use Ranger spells/wands without UMD (which won't come online until at least level 10).

So yeah... I chose ranger to get more versatility, since i couldn't really get anymore damage. IF I'm wrong though, I'm happy to hear it!

[Gwendol]

I fear my lack of knowledge of PF is preventing me from giving any in-depth advice...

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I fear my lack of knowledge of PF is preventing me from giving any in-depth advice...

ah, no worries. thanks anyway!

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I also bet a wand of lead blades would be good... Turning the 1d10 glaive into 2d8.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Any more ideas? :smallbiggrin:

[Bhaakon]

I'd swap out ranger for ninja in this build. That way you can go pure Dex focus and rely on sneak attack for your damage output (which will be easy to get with your shadow flank buddy). It looses some HP on the ranger, but it can also pick up some abilities to help if escape from your party (always a potential problem for recurring characters).

[soulchicken]

Is there a feat like reckless attack? You could nix your ac since you should be vanishing after you are done attacking.

Also, 38 will take 2 attacks to kill a character, true. Buts it's over half life, so if you catch your targets off-balance, you could drop someone before the party can do anything about it. Pay nooks to split up the party. Appear out of nowhere and waylay their caster or healer. Act like a hunter. Track them, lay traps, send a herd of stampeding large beasts their way. Don't let them sleep; no sleep no spells.

/shrug 38 isn't omgyousplatteredthatguyonthewall. But it is enough to make whoever got hit to ask for heals.

My 2c

[Akal Saris]

I'd trade out great cleave for cleaving finish, for a quick change.

From experience with a similar NPC build, I'd give him a potion of displacement before the fight - 1 opponent and a shadow pet vs. a party rarely works out well, but having 50% miss chance will let him survive a few volleys of readied actions when he charges a PC from out of stealth.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Ouch... as much as I like the rogue (and, therefore, ninja) as a conmcept, it sucks mechanically as a class. Yes, in theory i could od more damage with a ninja via HiPS and various ninja tricks...
However, Ranger provides damage, regardless of say, blindsense. This keeps HiPS entirely defensive, instead of relying on it to deal damage: a mistake I think too many people make.
Having tried a Rogue/Shadowdancer on several occasions, I still find it underwhelming.

@soulchicken: you described the ideal tactics perfectly. My plan would be to attack spellcasters first, and should they attempt to fly, Let my shadow STR damage them to (near?) death. Definitely part of why i took Ranger over Fighter...

Im not sure where you got 38 damage/ attack from (assuming no magic items but a wand of Lead Blades, I got an average of 28 at level 10, and 34 at level 15.)
REGARDLESS. I agree. the damage isn't spectacular, but it is solid, and happens regardless of HiPS. (unlike Sneak Attack.) Most melee types are not going to have an immediate way of countering my tricks (longstrider, spring attack, HiPS, reach, other uses of UMD). This will give me time to whittle at the HP. Even if they've got 100 hp, I could still bring an opponent down in 3 rounds, again leaving many opponents unable to effectively respond.

Any damage boosts you all can think of would help!

@Akal Saris
I went for Great Cleave, because it seemed to fit better for a skirmishing character. Also, Finishing Cleave is not a bonus feat available for a two handed Style Ranger. I also wasn't sure i would be adjacent to another character should I drop one, considering my tactics. Maybe i can fit it in somewhere...

[Bhaakon]

However, Ranger provides damage, regardless of say, blindsense. This keeps HiPS entirely defensive, instead of relying on it to deal damage: a mistake I think too many people make.

Ideally, you'd get most of your SA from flanking with the shadow rather than HIPS.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Ideally, you'd get most of your SA from flanking with the shadow rather than HIPS.

The Shadow is still a notably weak "pet"... its only got half my HP, and any smart player will kill it first. It also makes the whole Spring Attack chain largely a waste...

[Serafina]

Rangers work very well as NPC-antagonists, since they can tailor their favored enemy against the players.
So i'd stick with Ranger, despite Ninja being a nice class for the concept.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Rangers work very well as NPC-antagonists, since they can tailor their favored enemy against the players.
So i'd stick with Ranger, despite Ninja being a nice class for the concept.

i agree, hence my +6 to humans... it also fit as the bounty hunter/killer back-story for this guy.

Any way I can milk a little more damage out of this? Would anyone consider this optimized enough to play as a PC in a different game?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I had another thought... how would the Lunge feat do in a build like this? another 5 ft of reach, another 5ft harder to catch up to at the end of a Spring Attack...

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

first (and last) bump.:smallbiggrin: