[3.5] Attempt to Homebrew a Class: Adapting 4e Avenger to 3.5 [WIP]

[yougi]

Some of you might be familiar with 4e's Avenger, churches' equivalent of assassins. Well I play one in 4e, and have decided to try to include this awesome class to 3.5. As this is my first time trying to go through the process of creating a class, so please help direct me in the right... direction... (Wow, I need to work on my vocabulary) I’m mainly looking for input in terms of the class’s balance and respect of the original material.

For those of you who do not know 4e's avenger, they are basically a religion's hitmen. They have the ability to mark a target with their Oath of Enmity (or, as my buddy would say, Oath of Intimity), and gain specific bonuses fighting them.

*Eventually, some flavor text and stuff*

Abilities: A lot of your abilities are keyed off your Wisdom. As a melee combatant, Strength is important for you to hit hard and reliably, and Constitution to withstand the hits. Being unarmored also makes Dexterity an important stat to raise your AC.

The Avenger - d12
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|AC Bonus|Abilities
1|+1|+0|+2|+2|+0|Oath of Enmity, 1/day; Smite, 1/day, Detect Heretics
2|+2|+0|+3|+3|+0|Pursuit; Fast Movement +10ft
3|+3|+1|+3|+3|+1|Glory of the Fulfilled Oath
4|+4|+1|+4|+4|+1|Lay on Hands
5|+5|+1|+4|+4|+2|Smite, 2/day; Fearful glance, 1/day
6|+6/+1|+2|+5|+5|+2|Oath of Enmity, 2/day
7|+7/+2|+2|+5|+5|+3|Evasion
8|+8/+3|+2|+6|+6|+3|Out of my way
9|+9/+4|+3|+6|+6|+4|Luck of the Faithful; Fearful glance, 2/day
10|+10/+5|+3|+7|+7|+4|Smite, 3/day
11|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+7|+5|Improved Evasion
12|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+8|+5|Oath of Enmity, 3/day, Abundant Step, 1/day
13|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+8|+6|Fast Movement +10ft; Fearful glance, 3/day
14|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+9|+6|Oath of Annihilation, Abundant Step, 2/day
15|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+9|+7|Smite, 4/day
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+10|+7|Abundant Step, 3/day
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|+8|Fearful glance, 4/day
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|+8|Oath of Enmity, 4/day
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|+9|Abundant Step, 4/day
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|+9|Smite, 5/day; Oath of Enmity, 5/day[/table]

Skill Ranks per level:4+Int Bonus
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An avenger is proficient with all martial and simple weapons, but proficient with no armor or shield.

AC Bonus: As long as not wearing armor nor using a shield, an avenger gains an armor AC bonus at every odd level. In addition, they are allowed to add their Wisdom modifier to this bonus. This does not stack with the ability of certain other classes, such as the monk or ninja, to do the same thing.

Oath of Enmity: The avenger’s powers come from the focus of their wrath and faith on one enemy at a time. The avenger can swear an Oath of Enmity against any enemy he sees who does not share their faith, as a free action. He can also receive such a target from any hierarchically superior member of his church. In addition to the many powers he gets at later levels, the avenger is allowed to add his Wisdom modifier in addition to his Strength modifier to any melee damage roll he deals the target of his Oath of Enmity. He also gets a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits, a +4 bonus to attacks of opportunity and is treated as having the Blind-fight fear to strike the target of his Oath of Enmity.
At the beginning of each day, if you have an active Oath of Enmity, you must renew your pledge to destroy that creature, unless a higher ranking member of your church orders you not to. This takes a use of Oath of Enmity as normal. An avenger cannot, regardless of their level, swear a different target to his Oath until the previous one has been defeated (whether killed or forced to flee), unless directed to do so by a superior member of his church.

Smite: Once per day, an avenger can concentrate his wrath in his strikes and smite. Unless the target shares the avenger’s faith, the avenger will gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to their Wisdom modifier, and a bonus to damage equal to their class level. If the target of the Smite is also the target of their Oath of Enmity, the bonus to damage is doubled. In addition, if a smite threatens a critical hit, it is automatically confirmed.

Detect Favor: Just as paladins can detect the evil in others, an avenger can detect, by using a standard action, how favorably a character they see is perceived by their patron deity. There are four possible results: unfavored (an enemy of the faith), neutral, favored (a follower of the faith) and gifted (one who was granted abilities by the patron). Any way of blocking alignment detection or thoughts also block this ability. This ability can be used at will.

Fast Movement:At 2nd level, an avenger gains a 10ft bonus to their base land speed. This bonus is only applicable if the avenger wears no armor and no shield. This bonus raises to 20 ft at 13th level.

Pursuit: At 2nd level, an avenger gains the Track feat and the ability to track swiftly, as a ranger would. They also get a +2 bonus on survival check to track the target of their Oath of Enmity.

Glory of the Fulfilled Oath : When an avenger of 3rd level or higher slays the target of their Oath of Enmity, they gain a morale bonus to damage rolls equal to their Wisdom modifier. Furthermore, they gain a number of temporary hit points equal to twice the slain target's number of HD. These effects last for a number of rounds equal to 2 + their Wisdom modifier.

Lay on Hands:As a paladin would, a 4th level avenger can heal simply by touch. A total of (2 x Class Level x Wisdom modifier) hit points can be healed each day. An avenger can also use this ability to cause holy damage to the target of his Oath of Enmity by succeeding on a melee touch attack. If they are successful, the avenger can cause up to half of their daily healing allotment in holy damage on their target.

Fearful glance: An avenger’s wrath is so intense that a simple glance to the target of this rage can make enemies panic. Once per day, an avenger of 5th level or higher who can see the target of their Oath of Enmity can use this ability on enemies, in which case any enemy within 30ft and who sees the avenger must make a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ the avenger’s level + the avenger’s Wisdom modifier) or become panicked for 1d4 rounds. The avenger can use this ability one more time per day for every 4 levels above the 5th.

Evasion: At 7th level, an avenger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball), she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an avenger is wearing no armor nor shield. A helpless avenger (such as one who is unconscious or paralyzed) does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Out of my way: At 8th level, when the target of their Oath of Enmity is in sight but not adjacent to them, an avenger gains the ability to go through any enemies blocking his way: mechanically speaking, an avenger using this ability can get a bonus equal to his class level to his Tumble Skill, and move at full speed without modifying the DC of the check. This ability can only be used if the avenger wears no armor and uses no shield, and the avenger must be closer to the target of his Oath of Enmity after this maneuver than he was before.

Luck of the Faithful: At 9th level, an avenger gains the ability to miss less often against the target of their Oath of Enmity. By using this ability, an avenger gains the ability to, once per round, roll two d20s for a single attack roll against their Oath of Enmity target, and to chose the best result. If the avenger has multiple attack rolls in a round, he must declare to which attack he will use this ability.

Improved Evasion At 11th level, an avenger’s evasion ability improves. They still take no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks such as a dragon’s breath weapon or a fireball, but henceforth take only half damage on a failed save. A helpless avenger (such as one who is unconscious or paralysed) does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Abundant Step: At 12th level or higher, an avenger can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day, with two differences: (1) this effect affects the avenger and the avenger only; and (2) using this ability costs only a move action. Their caster level for this effect is their class level.

Oath of Annihilation: Due to your steadfast determination to end the lives of their god's enemies, avengers have the ability to ignore the defenses of sanctioned prey. At 14th level, they get the ability to ignore all damage reduction that the target of their Oath of Enmity possesses.


Thanks to Stryker for a few ideas (at DnD Wiki (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Avenger_%283.5e_Class%29))

So here's what I'm looking for:
- Would this be balanced?
- Would this be fun to play, despite the fact that many abilities will only be used in one single fight per day?
- Does it make me look fat?

Answers, comments, ideas, hints, every kind of input is helpful!

[yougi]

1st version:

*Eventually, some flavor text and stuff*

Abilities: A lot of your abilities are keyed off your Wisdom. As a melee combatant, Strength is important for you to hit hard and reliably, and Constitution to withstand the hits.

The Avenger - d12
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|AC Bonus|Abilities
1|+1|+0|+2|+2|+0|Oath of Enmity; Smite, 1/day, Detect Heretics
2|+2|+0|+3|+3|+0|Pursuit; Fast Movement +10ft
3|+3|+1|+3|+3|+0|Finishing Touch, Defended by Faith
4|+4|+1|+4|+4|+0|Lay on Hands
5|+5|+1|+4|+4|+1|Smite, 2/day; Fearful glance, 1/day
6|+6/+1|+2|+5|+5|+1|Oath of Enmity, 1/day
7|+7/+2|+2|+5|+5|+1|Evasion
8|+8/+3|+2|+6|+6|+1|Out of my way, 1/day
9|+9/+4|+3|+6|+6|+1|Luck of the Faithful; Fearful glance, 2/day
10|+10/+5|+3|+7|+7|+2|Smite, 3/day
11|+11/+6/+1|+3|+7|+7|+2|Improved Evasion
12|+12/+7/+2|+4|+8|+8|+2|Oath of Enmity, 2/day, Abundant Step
13|+13/+8/+3|+4|+8|+8|+2|Fast Movement +10ft; Fearful glance, 3/day
14|+14/+9/+4|+4|+9|+9|+2|Oath of Annihilation
15|+15/+10/+5|+5|+9|+9|+3|Smite, 4/day
16|+16/+11/+6/+1|+5|+10|+10|+3|Out of my way, 2/day
17|+17/+12/+7/+2|+5|+10|+10|+3|Fearful glance, 4/day
18|+18/+13/+8/+3|+6|+11|+11|+3|Oath of Enmity, at will
19|+19/+14/+9/+4|+6|+11|+11|+3|
20|+20/+15/+10/+5|+6|+12|+12|+4|Smite, 5/day[/table]

Skill Ranks per level:4+Int Bonus
Class Skills: Balance, Climb, Gather Information, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (religion), Knowledge (the Planes), Listen, Move Silently, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Survival, Tumble.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An avenger is proficient with all martial and simple weapons, but proficient with no armor or shield.

AC Bonus: As long as not wearing armor nor using a shield, an avenger gains a deflection AC bonus at every 5th level. In addition, they are allowed to add their Wisdom modifier to this bonus. This does not stack with the ability of certain other classes, such as the monk or ninja, to do the same thing.

Oath of Enmity: The avenger’s powers come from the focus of their wrath and faith on one enemy at a time. The avenger can swear an Oath of Enmity against any enemy he sees who does not share their faith, as a free action. He can also receive such a target from any hierarchically superior member of his church. In addition to the many powers he gets at later levels, the avenger is allowed to add his Wisdom modifier instead of his Strength modifier to any melee damage he deals the target of his Oath of Enmity. He also gets a +4 bonus to confirm critical hits, a +4 bonus to attacks of opportunity and is treated as having Blind-fight to strike the target of his Oath of Enmity.
At first level, an avenger cannot change the target of his Oath within one day: after he slays his target, he must wait to the following day before being able to swear another target to his Oath. However, from 6th level on, an Avenger can name a new target once per day, provided his previous target is already defeated. This goes up to twice per day at 12th level, and can be used at will from 18th level on. An avenger cannot, regardless of their level, swear a different target to his Oath unless the previous one has been defeated.

Smite: Once per day, an avenger can concentrate his wrath in his strikes and smite. Unless the target shares the avenger’s faith, the avenger will gain a bonus to the attack roll equal to their Wisdom modifier, and a bonus to damage equal to their class level. If the target of the Smite is also the target of their Oath of Enmity, the bonus to damage is doubled.

Detect Heretics: Just as paladins can detect the evil in others, an avenger can detect, by using a standard action, if a particular character they see shares the avenger’s patron deity, if they follow another deity, or if they follow a deity of diametrically opposed alignment. They can also determine roughly how pious and devoted that character is, on a scale of 1 (not practicing) to 5 (granted with divine powers) (see table below). This detection is also blocked by undetectable alignment. This ability can be used at will.

Table 1: Levels of piousness
{table=head]Level of piousness|Example
1- Non-practicer|Derkin identifies with Pelor’s values. He however does not go to the weekly mass, nor does he do his daily morning prayers. He rarely discusses his faith, but if asked, he does name Pelor as his patron deity.
2- Passive follower|Merach is a follower of Moradin. He goes to the weekly mass most of the time, prays in hard times, hoping for support and help. He seldom discusses his faith, but if asked, he does name Moradin as his patron deity.
3- Active follower|Yalmibaza is a follower of Garl Glittergold. She goes to the weekly mass, does her morning prayers and says grace before meals. She often discusses her faith and beliefs.
4- Devout|Jurn is a follower of Heironeous, everyone knows that. Always in the first row at mass, he does his official prayers and also prays before most actions. He rarely discusses anything without bringing his faith and beliefs in the discussion.
5- Granted with Divine Powers|Kelior is a 3rd level Cleric of Ehlonna. His brother Franak, a 7th level druid of Obad-Hai, and his mother Axial, an 11th level Paladin of Heironeous, are all so in tune with their respective deities that they are granted favors and powers to help them further the cause of their god.[/table]

Fast Movement:At 2nd level, an avenger gains a 10ft bonus to their base land speed. This bonus is only applicable if the avenger wears no armor and no shield. This bonus raises to 20 ft at 13th level.

Pursuit: At 2nd level, an avenger gains the Track feat and the ability to track swiftly, as a ranger would, but can only use it against the target of your Oath of Enmity.

Finishing Touch: From 3rd level on, an avenger who makes Coup de grace against the target of their Oath of Enmity raises the DC to survive the attack by an amount equal to their class level.

Defended by Faith: From 3rd level on, avengers gain a bonus to each of their saving throws equal to their Wisdom modifier.

Lay on Hands:As a paladin would, a 4th level avenger can heal simply by touch. A total of (2 x Class Level x Wisdom modifier) hit points can be healed each day. An avenger can also use this ability to cause holy damage to the target of his Oath of Enmity by succeeding on a melee touch attack. If they are successful, the avenger can cause up to half of their daily healing allotment in holy damage on their target.

Fearful glance: An avenger’s wrath is so intense that a simple glance to the target of this rage can make enemies panic. Once per day, an avenger of 5th level or higher who can see the target of their Oath of Enmity can use this ability on enemies, in which case any enemy within 30ft and who sees the avenger must make a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ the avenger’s level + the avenger’s Wisdom modifier) or become panicked for 1d4 rounds. The avenger can use this ability one more time per day for every 4 levels above the 5th.

Evasion: At 7th level, an avenger can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save (such as a red dragon’s fiery breath or a fireball), she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if an avenger is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless avenger (such as one who is unconscious or paralysed) does not gain the benefit of evasion.

Out of my way: At 8th level, when the target of their Oath of Enmity is in sight but not adjacent to them, an avenger gains the ability to go through any enemies blocking his way: mechanically speaking, an avenger using this ability can get a bonus equal to his class level to his Tumble Skill, and to move at full speed without modifying the DC of the check. This ability can only be used if the avenger wears no armor and uses no shield, and the avenger must be closer to the target of his Oath of Enmity after this maneuver as he was before. An avenger can use it once per day; this raises to twice per day at 16th level.

Luck of the Faithful: At 9th level, an avenger gains the ability to miss less often against the target of their Oath of Enmity. By using this ability, an avenger gains the ability to re-roll attacks roll against their Oath of Enmity target, although they must always use the second result, even if it’s lower than their first one.

Improved Evasion At 11th level, an avenger’s evasion ability improves. They still take no damage on a successful Reflex saving throw against attacks such as a dragon’s breath weapon or a fireball, but henceforth take only half damage on a failed save. A helpless avenger (such as one who is unconscious or paralysed) does not gain the benefit of improved evasion.

Abundant Step: At 12th level or higher, an avenger can slip magically between spaces, as if using the spell dimension door, once per day. Their caster level for this effect is one-half their class level (rounded down).

Oath of Annihilation: Due to your steadfast determination to end the lives of their god's enemies, avengers have the ability to ignore the defences of sanctioned prey. At 14th level, they get the ability to ignore all damage reduction that the target of their Oath of Enmity possesses.


Thanks to Stryker for a few ideas (at DnD Wiki (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Avenger_%283.5e_Class%29))

[yougi]

bumpy bump?

[SSGoW]

I like the smite, however you should base it off the pathfinder smite and not the 3.5 smite. This will fit with the Oath and the Avenger's whole idea.

While you are at it... You could take the lay on hands ability from the Pathfinder paladin and anti-paladin and let the avenger choose freely from the list... As in the Avenger can choose a negative debuff and a positive buff when she uses her lay on hands (though with this example they wouldn't choose both at the same time). Also let her Lay on Hands dmg or heal.

D20pfsrd.com

[Vadskye]

AC Bonus: Gaining a deflection bonus is a little odd. Most of the time, those types of bonuses are untyped; why should an avenger gain no benefit from a ring of protection when everyone else does?
(Personally, I like having the bonus be an armor bonus; that way, you don't have to play the "How do I get mage armor?" game. But that's just me.)

Oath of Enmity:
As far as I can tell, the mechanism for determining whether you can select a new Oath of Enmity target is essentially 1/day at 1-5th level, 2/day at 6-11th level, and so on, with the caveat that you can't swear a new Oath target unless your previous one is dead. I think that using a more uniform "uses/day" system is easier to understand.

On a similar note, denying the avenger its signature class ability if a foe manages to escape (as many a BBEG likes to do) is something that should strongly be avoided. One solution is to make it clear that forcing a foe to flee counts as defeating them for this purpose. That still allows for the possibility for an avenger to be forced to flee, however - perhaps an atonement (with no XP cost) could allow the avenger to choose a new Oath of Enmity target.

The Oath of Enmity using Wisdom to damage only matters if your Wisdom is higher than your Strength. Is avoiding Strength an incentive you want to put into the class? It's an awkward incentive, since it can only be used a select number of times per day. You might consider using Wisdom as a modifier to the existing damage instead.

Smite: I second the idea that using the 3.5 Paladin Smite is a too weak, but I tend to think that the Pathfinder Smite is significantly too strong. A middle ground can work well - perhaps a 3.5 style smite that applies to every attack made in the round, with more uses per day. Salt to taste.

Detect Heretics: Eek, a chart! Do we really need five different levels of faith? That seems excessive. I think a more simple "non-practicing"/"practicing"/"divine instrument" setup will make life easier for both the DM and the player.

Finishing Touch: Does anyone actually survive a Coup de Grace anyway?

Defended by Faith: You're giving the class Wis to saves, making its most important abilities Dex, Con, and Wis, and giving it two good saves? And Evasion? Something has to give here, or you're going to have an absolute save-monster. Fun to play, maybe, but I'm not sure whether it really fits the Avenger class. Even without Wis to saves, the Avenger will have Monk-level saves for the most part; I'm pretty sure that added boost is excessive.

Out of My Way is pretty cool, flavorful, and situational; I don't think it needs to be use/day limited, since Oath of Enmity already is.

Luck of the Faithful: Wow, that's a doozy when you finally hit it. I'd try to avoid power level hops like this. Maybe, when you first get it, you can use it on a single attack per round. Then later, it improves to this version - possibly stopping at "twice per round" along the way.

Abundant Step: This has two problems (and yes, I know this is just the Monk ability copied over. I don't like it there either). First, at 11th level, you now have the amazing ability to... do something once a day that the wizard could do four levels ago. Second, as written, you can take others with you. Does that feel right to you? When I imagine Abundant Step, it feels self-only to me. In any case, this needs to have something that sets it apart from the spell. One easy thing that shouldn't overpower it is to make it a move action, and remove the clause that says you can't act after using it. Maybe bump up the uses per day too - either right away, or using a "and once more per day at 14th, 17th, 20th level" setup.

...Okay, that was a lot. Don't take this as me saying that your ideas are bad! They definitely aren't - I wouldn't have put this much effort in if your idea didn't intrigue me. It's great to see a homebrew class that isn't really overpowered, and you've done a good job capturing the feel of an avenger. Just needs some tweaking, I say. :)

[yougi]

I like the smite, however you should base it off the pathfinder smite and not the 3.5 smite. This will fit with the Oath and the Avenger's whole idea.

While you are at it... You could take the lay on hands ability from the Pathfinder paladin and anti-paladin and let the avenger choose freely from the list... As in the Avenger can choose a negative debuff and a positive buff when she uses her lay on hands (though with this example they wouldn't choose both at the same time). Also let her Lay on Hands dmg or heal.

D20pfsrd.com

The PF Smite does fit the concept a LOT better. Thank you for that. For Lay on hands, it's basically the same thing, but with a dice thrown instead of a fixed amount, isn't it?


AC Bonus: Gaining a deflection bonus is a little odd. Most of the time, those types of bonuses are untyped; why should an avenger gain no benefit from a ring of protection when everyone else does?
(Personally, I like having the bonus be an armor bonus; that way, you don't have to play the "How do I get mage armor?" game. But that's just me.)

True. Very, very true. I actually wanted to type Dodge in there, since dodge bonuses can stack. But the mage armor thing is pretty darn annoying. Hmmmmm...


Oath of Enmity:
As far as I can tell, the mechanism for determining whether you can select a new Oath of Enmity target is essentially 1/day at 1-5th level, 2/day at 6-11th level, and so on, with the caveat that you can't swear a new Oath target unless your previous one is dead. I think that using a more uniform "uses/day" system is easier to understand.

Well, no. The difference between what I wrote and what you understood is that with my version, if you wake up and still have your OoE from the day before, you can't call a new one after they die, given that you had one already. However, I'm not sure if (a) that can be written clearly ever, and (b) if that's actually a good thing.

That being said, would you play such a character if OoE wasn't something you could not do every combat, and most of your abilities ticked off from that?


On a similar note, denying the avenger its signature class ability if a foe manages to escape (as many a BBEG likes to do) is something that should strongly be avoided. One solution is to make it clear that forcing a foe to flee counts as defeating them for this purpose. That still allows for the possibility for an avenger to be forced to flee, however - perhaps an atonement (with no XP cost) could allow the avenger to choose a new Oath of Enmity target.

Hmmmmm, I did not think about that. Then again, in 4E, the avenger can follow his target if they flee, which could be put somewhere in there too...


The Oath of Enmity using Wisdom to damage only matters if your Wisdom is higher than your Strength. Is avoiding Strength an incentive you want to put into the class? It's an awkward incentive, since it can only be used a select number of times per day. You might consider using Wisdom as a modifier to the existing damage instead.

True! My point was to try and make it less MAD than the Monk, you know, taking that part away. What about saying that Wis replaced Con as your HP modifier? Would have the same effect, lessening the MADness
(THIS IS SPARTA!)
without this awkward part...


Smite: I second the idea that using the 3.5 Paladin Smite is a too weak, but I tend to think that the Pathfinder Smite is significantly too strong. A middle ground can work well - perhaps a 3.5 style smite that applies to every attack made in the round, with more uses per day. Salt to taste.

What if I replaced the entire OoE system with something more akin to PF's Smite? It seems to be exactly what I want: bonuses to hit, to damage and to AC against one particular target. Isn't that the whole point of the Avenger?


Detect Heretics: Eek, a chart! Do we really need five different levels of faith? That seems excessive. I think a more simple "non-practicing"/"practicing"/"divine instrument" setup will make life easier for both the DM and the player.

Yes, that would be much, much simpler. That said, what did you think of the ability, as opposed to Detect *alignment*?


Finishing Touch: Does anyone actually survive a Coup de Grace anyway?

Well, not if they're bleeding to death, but if they're paralyzed and it full health, and they make their save, they may very well survive the critical. With a greatsword and an avenger with 18 strength, that would only be 10-30. Not enough to kill much.

Then again, at 30 the DC for the save would be 40... good point... I wanted to give them some incentive to finish off their OoE target instead of, you know, being helpful to the rest of the party.


Defended by Faith: You're giving the class Wis to saves, making its most important abilities Dex, Con, and Wis, and giving it two good saves? And Evasion? Something has to give here, or you're going to have an absolute save-monster. Fun to play, maybe, but I'm not sure whether it really fits the Avenger class. Even without Wis to saves, the Avenger will have Monk-level saves for the most part; I'm pretty sure that added boost is excessive.

Yeah... That is a little overkill, ain't it?


Out of My Way is pretty cool, flavorful, and situational; I don't think it needs to be use/day limited, since Oath of Enmity already is.

Got you.


Luck of the Faithful: Wow, that's a doozy when you finally hit it. I'd try to avoid power level hops like this. Maybe, when you first get it, you can use it on a single attack per round. Then later, it improves to this version - possibly stopping at "twice per round" along the way.

I like that. What about giving the 1/round at lv6 (i.e. when you get your second attack)? Then you have that thing going on where you're asking yourself to which attack you give it: "do I make it possible for my second attack to hit, or do I make sure my primary one does"? Should you have to call which attack gets it before rolling the dice?

However, how would that affect those who want to dual-wield?


Abundant Step: *snip*

Definitely. I always considered it to be like that, although it is true that per RAW, it isn't. Thanks for making me realise the monk sucks even more than I thought! ;)


...Okay, that was a lot. Don't take this as me saying that your ideas are bad! They definitely aren't - I wouldn't have put this much effort in if your idea didn't intrigue me. It's great to see a homebrew class that isn't really overpowered, and you've done a good job capturing the feel of an avenger. Just needs some tweaking, I say. :)

I absolutely love the feedback! I'll get back to the drawing board, your ideas definitely resonated with me!

[Vadskye]

For Lay on hands, it's basically the same thing, but with a dice thrown instead of a fixed amount, isn't it?
Sort of - the lay on hands has 1/2 paladin level + Cha mod uses per day, so it's more versatile.
(Personally, I prefer healing a flat 2x paladin level per use instead of d6/2 levels; it plays faster, and is 0.25/level more powerful. Nothing wrong with the Pathfinder version, though.)


True. Very, very true. I actually wanted to type Dodge in there, since dodge bonuses can stack. But the mage armor thing is pretty darn annoying. Hmmmmm...
There's no perfect answer here, unfortunately. If you do go with an armor progression, feel free to increase the rate at which AC is gained, since core monks/ninjas/etc. are assumed to be using Bracers of Armor. I'd even say a 1 per 2 levels progression is fair.


Well, no. The difference between what I wrote and what you understood is that with my version, if you wake up and still have your OoE from the day before, you can't call a new one after they die, given that you had one already. However, I'm not sure if (a) that can be written clearly ever, and (b) if that's actually a good thing.
Ah, got it - I see the difference. I've tried to puzzle out a new wording for this, but it's awkward. I think this goes back to an old rule I've had for myself while house ruling - "If you can't explain it easily, it's not worth explaining". For the sake of making the ability intuitive, I'd say to drop that requirement. The only negative consequence I see is in the particular situation where you know you are going to fight two particular people together. You could theoretically declare an Oath on one of them one day and intentionally delay fighting them until the next day; that way, when the first one dies, you can declare your Oath on the second one and get to uses of Oath of Enmity in the fight as early as first level.

Actually, now that I explain it, that does seem problematic. But I found a solution! How about "At the beginning of each day, if you have an active Oath of Enmity, you must renew your pledge to destroy that creature. This takes a use of Oath of Enmity as normal." It could perhaps be more clear/fluffy, but that should allow it to be written with a use/day setup from the start.


That being said, would you play such a character if OoE wasn't something you could do every combat
Yes.

and most of your abilities ticked off from that?
No. I'd look to the barbarian rage for guidance on this one. Barbarians can rage; it's one of their core class features. However, the rest of their abilities do not depend on being in a rage. (The fact that the rest of their abilities are weak is an entirely different problem).


Hmmmmm, I did not think about that. Then again, in 4E, the avenger can follow his target if they flee, which could be put somewhere in there too...
You mean with Bond of Pursuit? I think that worked in 4th because movement in general was more mundane there. Flight and teleportation are more common in 3.5, not to mention battlefield control spells like walls that can give foes plenty of opportunity to escape if they want (depending on the environment). It is nigh-impossible to create class features that could overcome all of that. You could consider giving the avenger the ability to do a dimensional anchor, and/or an anti-flight ability
(DRAGONREND)
but in general, I'd say that it's better to make sure the avenger can keep using its core class feature if the enemy escapes, rather than to try to prevent the enemy from ever being able to escape.




True! My point was to try and make it less MAD than the Monk, you know, taking that part away. What about saying that Wis replaced Con as your HP modifier? Would have the same effect, lessening the MADness
(THIS IS SPARTA!)
without this awkward part...
Eek, no. Every class needs Con - that's a part of 3.5 that isn't really going away without major revisions. Otherwise, avengers will be the one class that is filled with sickly, frail adventurers with low Con while everyone else is sturdy. Definitely not less awkward! What I was suggesting was that you could add both Wis and Str to your damage. That way avengers will still want a 10 or so Strength, though they don't have to depend on it for damage. If you're a strong and wise avenger, good on you! You'll do more damage, but you have a lower Dex and/or Con, so you're making tradeoffs. And frankly, avengers don't look like they have much going for them in terms of doing huge chunks of damage, so you're not going to imbalance anything with that.

[/quote]What if I replaced the entire OoE system with something more akin to PF's Smite? It seems to be exactly what I want: bonuses to hit, to damage and to AC against one particular target. Isn't that the whole point of the Avenger?[/quote]
Absolutely, it fits. I just don't like the PF Smite because it creates such a huge discrepancy between "normal fighting" and "god mode". Adding your level to every attack and two stats your attack bonus is huge, and it just crushes bosses - or whatever you point it at. Essentially, imagine a wizard could only alternate between going nova and shooting Magic Missiles; that's the sort of problem the PF smite leads to, based on my experience. But looking at the ability thematically, it is exactly the sort of thing you're looking for, and it's a great starting point.


Yes, that would be much, much simpler. That said, what did you think of the ability, as opposed to Detect *alignment*?
I love the idea in theory; last time I ran a big campaign, I had a grey guard in the party, and I replaced his detect evil with "detect strong ideological differences," so he would detect things he disagreed with instead of just "evil". It worked great. However, thinking about it more, I'm not convinced this ability actually tells you much of anything useful. Does how pious someone is really affect my decision about how to interact with them? Only if they are a follower of my church, most likely. I'd probably be more friendly towards pious people than non-pious people, but as a decision-making tool, it's nearly useless.

Something with a similar theme, but that is more useful, would be "detect favor". It would detect whether a creature is favored by your deity, and how strongly. For example, as an avenger of Pelor, undead, evil clerics, and so on would be "strongly disfavored". A fellow cleric would be "strongly favored", while a random person off the street would be neutral, slightly favored, or slightly disfavored depending on their alignment and/or alliegence to deities. Correlon Larenthian would "strongly disfavor" orcs, and so on.

That would require some work to put together, but you'd only have to do the work once - only for the deity that the single avenger in the party is going to be. Thoughts?


Well, not if they're bleeding to death, but if they're paralyzed and it full health, and they make their save, they may very well survive the critical. With a greatsword and an avenger with 18 strength, that would only be 10-30. Not enough to kill much.

Then again, at 30 the DC for the save would be 40... good point... I wanted to give them some incentive to finish off their OoE target instead of, you know, being helpful to the rest of the party.
If that's your goal, you could give them some sort of "Glory of the Fulfilled Oath" or "Victorious Surge" ability that gives them bonuses for the rest of the combat (by which I mean one minute) if they slay the target of their oath of enmity. I'm thinking a Divine Favor fits perfectly here: you kill your target, you gain the favor of your deity. At high levels (after Divine Favor hits its cap), you could also gain another bonus - possibly a Divine Power? The important thing is that the bonus has to be less than whatever bonuses your oath of enmity gives (so you don't Oath a goblin to get these bonuses before you fight the boss), but still worth doing (to encourage the avenger to finish off their target).


Yeah... That is a little overkill, ain't it?
A wee bit.


I like that. What about giving the 1/round at lv6 (i.e. when you get your second attack)? Then you have that thing going on where you're asking yourself to which attack you give it: "do I make it possible for my second attack to hit, or do I make sure my primary one does"? Should you have to call which attack gets it before rolling the dice?
Level 6 is about what I was thinking, too. You should have to call the attack you're using it on before getting the bonus, or else it isn't actually that different from the original version at low levels (since you can just only use it for the first attack if it misses, then only use it for the second attack if it misses...) Given that you're declaring it first, rolling 2d20 (take the highest) is better than rerolling; that way, you only have to check whether you hit once, rather than twice (once for the first, then once for the reroll if the first one missed). It saves a lot of time over rerolling.


However, how would that affect those who want to dual-wield?
Hm. I hadn't thought of that. Negatively, I'd imagine. But keep in mind that that Oath of Enmity, for several of the options we've talked about, will be granting significant flat damage bonuses - which is great for dual-wielders, but bad for single weapon wielders. This would just balance that out.


Definitely. I always considered it to be like that, although it is true that per RAW, it isn't. Thanks for making me realise the monk sucks even more than I thought! ;)
Hey, that's what I'm here for. :P


I absolutely love the feedback! I'll get back to the drawing board, your ideas definitely resonated with me!
Awesome! I look forward to seeing what you come up with.

[yougi]

Version 2.0 is up, a month later due to RL getting in the way. Changes made:


AC bonus is now dodge, rather than deflection, as dodge bonuses stack
OoE now grants Wis in addition to Str
OoE per day uses fixed
Smite improved: now helps in critical hit confirmation
Detect heretics: chart taken out, replaced by a (I hope) simpler system
Bonus to Coup de grace changed to a buff when the target of OoE is slain
Wis bonus to saves taken out
Abundant step wording improved, and higher number of uses per day as the avenger gains level


I like the changes. Still not sure Smite is good enough, and same about the damage output of this whole class... I thought of the following ability: REVERSE SNEAK ATTACK!

While SA gives you bonus damage when the target is flanked, this ability would give you bonus damage if your target is not adjacent to another one of your allies. Could be used against your OoE target for full usefulness, or against anyone for half-usefulness, taking away from the "god mode" Vadskye talked about.

So here you are. Thoughts?

[Vadskye]

I like it, I like it. Let's see...


An avenger cannot, regardless of their level, swear a different target to his Oath unless the previous one has been defeated (whether killed or forced to flee).
You could add something to the effect of "unless directed to do so by a superior member of his church" here. Flavorful, and gives an escape clause in case something strange happens that would permanently deprive the avenger of their oath of enmity.


In addition, if the avenger threatens a critical hit on a smite, the attack roll to confirm only has to reach the target's touch armor class.
This is a pretty odd ability that, for most practical purposes, just means "always confirms, unless something weird happens". Why not just say "automatically confirms critical hits"? Paladins can already get that with Bless Weapon, and Smite can't be used very often, so it's not like it's unbalancing.


unfavored (an enemy of the faith), neutral, favored (a follower of the faith) and gifted (one who was granted abilities by the patron).
I like this distinction. Pretty simple, provided that the deity's attitudes are understood.


This detection is also blocked by undetectable alignment.
Oddly specific wording here - why not just say that it's blocked by anything that would block the detection of alignments or thoughts? There's precedent for that somewhere, I know.


Glory of the Fulfilled Oath : When an avenger of 3rd level or higher slays the target of their Oath of Enmity, they gain a morale bonus to damage rolls equal to their Wisdom modifier.
There comes a point where basing everything off of Wisdom modifier isn't a good plan. It's hard for me to put my finger on why this ability feels wrong as a Wisdom-based ability, but my game designer senses are tingling. Partially because the duration of the effect is also based on Wisdom, and there's already a separate Wisdom to damage ability elsewhere. Using an ability modifier as a typed bonus feels strange, too; typed bonuses (and this feels perfectly appropriate as a morale bonus, I think) are typically static or scale with level, as far as I remember.

I'm not exactly sure what to replace it with. Perhaps a Heroism or Good Hope type of effect? Also, temporary hit points fit perfectly here, and I get that you're trying to scale the reward according to the strength of the monster, but 1/10 of the monster's total HP feels odd to me. I don't think there are any other mechanics in the game that key off of maximum HP, and I generally recommend avoiding new mechanical ground like that without good reason. Perhaps "two temporary hit points per HD of the slain creature"? Not sure about that from a balance perspective - it may be too weak.


Luck of the Faithful...
Still would prefer that this be split up into two separate abilities.


Oath of Enmity, at will
Er... what. Going from "3/day" to "at will" is a massive, massive jump. I understand that at 18th level, it may or may not be a power level concern (casters, etc.), but it does really strange things to the way the class will be played. I'd recommend not doing this.

Overall, the class is pretty good - but it does seem to be missing a little "oomph".


REVERSE SNEAK ATTACK!

While SA gives you bonus damage when the target is flanked, this ability would give you bonus damage if your target is not adjacent to another one of your allies.
And this is just what it is looking for - if we can get it to work out mechanically. The concept of "reverse sneak attack" is fantastic, but as it's currently worded, it would create some rather perverse play incentives. The nice thing about sneak attack is that it encourages teamwork. Reverse sneak attack is basically telling the avenger's allies that they are not allowed to work with the avenger. That's not quite the point of the avenger, in my interpretation; yes, he likes pummeling a single enemy furiously, but I don't imagine the avenger refusing to allow his allies to help. (Also, this only prevents melee characters from helping; casters and ranged characters don't matter.) I think there's a better mechanic here.

What if it's based around whether the creature is attacking the avenger? "The avenger gains an extra 1d6 damage against foes who did not attack the avenger during the foe's last turn." This is more general; "attack" is very broad, and includes hostile spells and so on. It doesn't discourage allies from helping the avenger, but it has the flavor of "I am your doom" that really embodies the avenger. This could use a full Sneak Attack progression, but since the avenger is full BAB and already has other damage bonuses, I think a Skirmish progression would be more appropriate. Thoughts?

[yougi]

You could add something to the effect of "unless directed to do so by a superior member of his church" here. Flavorful, and gives an escape clause in case something strange happens that would permanently deprive the avenger of their oath of enmity.

Ways to get out of an infinite loops are always useful! ;) Good thinking!



This is a pretty odd ability that, for most practical purposes, just means "always confirms, unless something weird happens". Why not just say "automatically confirms critical hits"? Paladins can already get that with Bless Weapon, and Smite can't be used very often, so it's not like it's unbalancing.

Well... yeah, I guess. Why does everything have to be simple and stuff? Yeah, sure! ;)


There comes a point where basing everything off of Wisdom modifier isn't a good plan. It's hard for me to put my finger on why this ability feels wrong as a Wisdom-based ability, but my game designer senses are tingling. Partially because the duration of the effect is also based on Wisdom, and there's already a separate Wisdom to damage ability elsewhere. Using an ability modifier as a typed bonus feels strange, too; typed bonuses (and this feels perfectly appropriate as a morale bonus, I think) are typically static or scale with level, as far as I remember.

Well, the Wisdom bonus to damage is against the OoE, so these would never stack. It basically means: if the OoE target is killed, you maintain to bonus to damage, but not to to hit. The reason to give this bonus a type is that I dislike untyped bonuses: they just seem... unorganized. And regarding the number of Wis-dependent bonuses, if you compare it to the Paladin's Charisma, or to any caster, I do not feel like it's going overboard. That being said: maybe duration should be based on class levels? Or just for the remainder of the current encounter?


I'm not exactly sure what to replace it with. Perhaps a Heroism or Good Hope type of effect? Also, temporary hit points fit perfectly here, and I get that you're trying to scale the reward according to the strength of the monster, but 1/10 of the monster's total HP feels odd to me. I don't think there are any other mechanics in the game that key off of maximum HP, and I generally recommend avoiding new mechanical ground like that without good reason. Perhaps "two temporary hit points per HD of the slain creature"? Not sure about that from a balance perspective - it may be too weak.

You're right, it would be a rather new mechanic. Now I don't really see the difference between basing the ability on the number of HP and the number of HD, but... yeah... something to think about I guess!


Still would prefer that this be split up into two separate abilities.

How could it be? It's one ability: reroll your attack. I don't really see how I could split it in two...


Er... what. Going from "3/day" to "at will" is a massive, massive jump. I understand that at 18th level, it may or may not be a power level concern (casters, etc.), but it does really strange things to the way the class will be played. I'd recommend not doing this.

Agreed.


And this is just what it is looking for - if we can get it to work out mechanically. The concept of "reverse sneak attack" is fantastic, but as it's currently worded, it would create some rather perverse play incentives. The nice thing about sneak attack is that it encourages teamwork. Reverse sneak attack is basically telling the avenger's allies that they are not allowed to work with the avenger. That's not quite the point of the avenger, in my interpretation; yes, he likes pummeling a single enemy furiously, but I don't imagine the avenger refusing to allow his allies to help. (Also, this only prevents melee characters from helping; casters and ranged characters don't matter.) I think there's a better mechanic here.

What if it's based around whether the creature is attacking the avenger? "The avenger gains an extra 1d6 damage against foes who did not attack the avenger during the foe's last turn." This is more general; "attack" is very broad, and includes hostile spells and so on. It doesn't discourage allies from helping the avenger, but it has the flavor of "I am your doom" that really embodies the avenger. This could use a full Sneak Attack progression, but since the avenger is full BAB and already has other damage bonuses, I think a Skirmish progression would be more appropriate. Thoughts?

That is indeed a good point... Hmmmm... However, what you're offering is pretty much an equivalent to "marking", which would force the target to attack the Avenger, and basically make him a "tank", which is not really what we want them to do, nor something they could do.

To give it more "ooomph", what about some spellcasting? What about a flurry of blow-like ability that basically gives them an extra attack?