And the Truth will set you Free [PF/3.5]

[ExemplarofAvg]

So for years they've given information for what happens when a Paladin falls from grace and turns towards darkness. Fall from Grace

Not all paladins that fall become antipaladins. In fact, the transformation is quite rare. Most paladins spend months or even years regaining their paladinhood, but they never stray so far from the path as to become irredeemable. Rarely, a paladin turns from the light and seeks instead to make a pact with the dark powers. Often this is through temptation or some sort of ruse, but once the deal is struck, the paladin finds himself on the path to damnation.

When such a fall occurs, the transformation can be swift. The paladin trades in all of his paladin levels for antipaladin levels on a 1-for-1 basis. This is usually a traumatic experience, involving a complex ritual that involves a living sacrifice and dark oaths made to foul powers (who sometimes send minions to bear witness). Once complete, the antipaladin emerges, ready to bring ruin to the world.

It should be noted that not all antipaladins are fallen heroes. Some warriors are trained from a young age to assume the mantle of antipaladin, forged through pain and trauma into exemplars of evil. These cruel warriors know nothing of compassion or loyalty, but they can teach a great deal about pain and suffering. But, I wonder if it would be possible for an Anti-Paladin or Blackguard to become an agent for good? Would it work the same way?

[Psyren]

If you specifically mean the "trading in levels" thing - you'd likely have to homebrew something. WotC tends to like doing that for "light going dark" rather than the reverse.

If you simply mean such evil classes becoming good - the answer is yes, and this would likely involve some form of repentant act or quest, followed by the Atonement spell.

BoED has this to say:



The powers of good would be hypocritical if they demanded that mortals offer forgiveness to one another while themselves withholding it from mortals who displease them. Therein is the blessing and assurance that all good creatures can cling to: there is no sin so great that it cannot be forgiven. However, just as when player characters extend forgiveness to villains, forgiveness is predicated upon repentance. A character who has committed an evil act cannot simply obtain an atonement spell and carry on as if nothing had happened. She must first make amends for her actions, at least trying to repair any damage she caused and offering sincere apologies to those who might still hold resentment against her. She must demonstrate a willingness to try harder in the future to avoid such actions, a real commitment to avoiding evil at all costs. In many cases, she must also perform an act of penance: a good deed that most likely has nothing to do with reparations to those she injured, but simply demonstrates her renewed commitment to good.

With all these criteria met, the powers of good joyfully welcome straying sheep who return to the fold, and an atonement spell subsequently cast can have its full effect: restoring a paladin’s class, restoring a cleric’s or druid’s spell powers, or restoring the benefits of exalted feats to any character.

[The Redwolf]

So, that paragraph that you posted there Psyren reminded me of something that I've been wondering. What do you do if you're evil and fall out of favor with your deity but want to regain that power? I had a character who that may or may not have happened to and it was assumed between everyone in the party that he would have found a way to get his deity's favor back so that I can potentially use him again, but how exactly would one do that? Most especially this is important if the deity isn't of the same alignment, because the deity was neutral but he was evil.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, that paragraph that you posted there Psyren reminded me of something that I've been wondering. What do you do if you're evil and fall out of favor with your deity but want to regain that power? I had a character who that may or may not have happened to and it was assumed between everyone in the party that he would have found a way to get his deity's favor back so that I can potentially use him again, but how exactly would one do that? Most especially this is important if the deity isn't of the same alignment, because the deity was neutral but he was evil.

That'd depend on the deity in question. The gods have their proclivities and foibles just like their mortal followers.

Alternately, get a different god, unless of course you're in a deity specific PrC.

[Medic!]

Arbitrarily, you'd find one of your deity's followers who can cast Atonement, and let the games begin!

[The Redwolf]

Arbitrarily, you'd find one of your deity's followers who can cast Atonement, and let the games begin!

That's what I figured, but based on the paragraph Psyren posted it seems like it might require markedly more.

[Kelb_Panthera]

That's what I figured, but based on the paragraph Psyren posted it seems like it might require markedly more.

That's why I said, "It depends on the deity." Some gods may, through their teachings, dictate that penitents undergo a quest or some ritual service before granting an atonement.

Depending on the reason for the fall, I'll usually give the atonement right after the penitent accepts a geas/quest. The player gets his powers back immediately, but has to go on a quest of atonement in exchange.

[Psyren]

So, that paragraph that you posted there Psyren reminded me of something that I've been wondering. What do you do if you're evil and fall out of favor with your deity but want to regain that power?

Pretty much the same thing, just reversed. From Atonement:


Though the spell description refers to evil acts, atonement can also be used on any creature that has performed acts against its alignment, whether those acts are evil, good, chaotic, or lawful.

An evil character who "rises to good" can atone his way back down to Evil just fine. Or more accurately, they can have their evil powers restored (since it's pretty easy to turn evil even without magic.)


Most especially this is important if the deity isn't of the same alignment, because the deity was neutral but he was evil.

That's easy - one use of atonement is to change the target's alignment. The catch is that it matches the target's alignment to that of the caster, not the deity. So if you became Good, your desired deity is Neutral and you want to be Evil, just find an Evil cleric of said deity (using the One-Step rule) and have them minister to you:


You may cast this spell upon a creature of an opposing alignment in order to offer it a chance to change its alignment to match yours.

[The Redwolf]

An evil character who "rises to good" can atone his way back down to Evil just fine. Or more accurately, they can have their evil powers restored (since it's pretty easy to turn evil even without magic.)


That's easy - one use of atonement is to change the target's alignment. The catch is that it matches the target's alignment to that of the caster, not the deity. So if you became Good, your desired deity is Neutral and you want to be Evil, just find an Evil cleric of said deity (using the One-Step rule) and have them minister to you:

It was more of I was evil with a neutral deity and did something very evil and against the deity, kind of like a slap to the face sort of thing almost. Basically, I was a druid of Obad-Hai and I had to do something but doing so ended up killing all plant and animal life within a few miles of where I did it, so I got smacked with the ex-druid hammer. Doing stuff to get powers back is not something I'm actually going to have to do in a game, to be clear, I just want to know for future reference and all that what would be likely to be involved. Do you really think just an atonement or two would cover it?

[Kelb_Panthera]

It was more of I was evil with a neutral deity and did something very evil and against the deity, kind of like a slap to the face sort of thing almost. Basically, I was a druid of Obad-Hai and I had to do something but doing so ended up killing all plant and animal life within a few miles of where I did it, so I got smacked with the ex-druid hammer. Doing stuff to get powers back is not something I'm actually going to have to do in a game, to be clear, I just want to know for future reference and all that what would be likely to be involved. Do you really think just an atonement or two would cover it?

I..... I'm not sure I could let a druid recover from something of that magnitude. Not if he did it intentionally anyway. If it was an accident, it would definitely require a no-power quest before an atonement. That's some serious ****.

What good did this thing you did accomplish, if any?

[The Redwolf]

I..... I'm not sure I could let a druid recover from something of that magnitude. Not if he did it intentionally anyway. If it was an accident, it would definitely require a no-power quest before an atonement. That's some serious ****.

What good did this thing you did accomplish, if any?

It summoned a group of highly powerful demons from another plane so that they could be loose on our world to start doing stuff. It was a mission from my other deity, Vecna. Basically, we use a world that has been made up over several years, and things have happened through various time periods, and in the future from where our campaign was these demons (The Jones) have been a very major plot point several times, but nobody ever established how they got there, so I came up with a way to get them there and it was the focus of our campaign. So it accomplished a lot of evil and did a service to us as a group by explaining a part of our world.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It summoned a group of highly powerful demons from another plane so that they could be loose on our world to start doing stuff. It was a mission from my other deity, Vecna. Basically, we use a world that has been made up over several years, and things have happened through various time periods, and in the future from where our campaign was these demons (The Jones) have been a very major plot point several times, but nobody ever established how they got there, so I came up with a way to get them there and it was the focus of our campaign. So it accomplished a lot of evil and did a service to us as a group by explaining a part of our world.

Yeah, I would have an awfully hard time justifying that druid not remaining an ex-druid from that point on. I do allow retraining in my game though.

[The Redwolf]

I was kind of afraid of that. If all else fails I can just have him become a blighter to use those ex-druid levels, they just kinda suck.

[Daftendirekt]

Well, if that case is a druid, maybe see if the DM would let you trade in druid levels for Blighter levels like Blackguard does for paladin?

[Mithril Leaf]

I was kind of afraid of that. If all else fails I can just have him become a blighter to use those ex-druid levels, they just kinda suck.

Well, druid's only actually fall if they no longer revere nature. You can be as evil as you want, so long as the destruction of nature wasn't intended. You could probably get hit with an atonement so long as you still like nature.

[The Redwolf]

Well, if that case is a druid, maybe see if the DM would let you trade in druid levels for Blighter levels like Blackguard does for paladin?

Yeah, that's what I would be doing.


Well, druid's only actually fall if they no longer revere nature. You can be as evil as you want, so long as the destruction of nature wasn't intended. You could probably get hit with an atonement so long as you still like nature.

It was very intended though, that's the problem. It was the only reasonable way to accomplish what I needed to do. Going into more specifics would take more time than it's worth, but yeah. See, I honestly kinda feel like Kelb is probably right though, because this really was a very anti-druid sort of thing to do, it was straight against Obad-Hai, who gives him his druid powers, and it was very intentional. I just kinda wanted to see what some others would think about if it was reasonably possible. This is more of a DM call than a book case of a druid falling, ya know?

[Mithril Leaf]

It was very intended though, that's the problem. It was the only reasonable way to accomplish what I needed to do. Going into more specifics would take more time than it's worth, but yeah. See, I honestly kinda feel like Kelb is probably right though, because this really was a very anti-druid sort of thing to do, it was straight against Obad-Hai, who gives him his druid powers, and it was very intentional. I just kinda wanted to see what some others would think about if it was reasonably possible. This is more of a DM call than a book case of a druid falling, ya know?

If you did mean for all the life to die, yeah, that's pretty antidruid. You can just switch to worshipping nature itself. Alternatively, change to planar shepherd and revere the abyss. I never thought I'd recommend planar shepherd for anything not broken, but if you worship the lower planes, you could argue that you were shaping the nature of our plane to more match the nature of your chosen one.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I almost suggested blighter. It's such a poorly recieved class on these boards that I didn't know if I should or not. It's very flavorful, and pretty much screams anti-druid, but it's power is somewhat lacking next to some of its competitors (*cough cough* ur-priest *cough*).

[The Redwolf]

If you did mean for all the life to die, yeah, that's pretty antidruid. You can just switch to worshipping nature itself. Alternatively, change to planar shepherd and revere the abyss. I never thought I'd recommend planar shepherd for anything not broken, but if you worship the lower planes, you could argue that you were shaping the nature of our plane to more match the nature of your chosen one.

Seriously, you can just switch what you worship at will? That's...kinda nuts to me. I suppose there are plenty of real life examples that I won't start with so that nobody argues about anything, but for some reason it just feels wrong, although it feels wrong in reality to me too so that might be why...is there any way to get druid powers through Vecna?

[Water_Bear]

I've never understood the idea that an Antipaladin Blackguard or Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter could Fall (Rise?) for doing Good. Obviously if they go full redemption yeah, but why does an Archfiend or Evil God care if you intermittently pet cute puppies? It seems kind of arbitrary.

Even more mind-boggling is the idea that an Antipaladin (PF) or Paladin of Slaughter (3.5 UA) would have a Code of Conduct. I mean... really? These are the champions of Chaos and Evil, and they sat down one day and said "You know what we need; a list of things we can't do. There is literally no way this could backfire."

[The Redwolf]

I almost suggested blighter. It's such a poorly recieved class on these boards that I didn't know if I should or not. It's very flavorful, and pretty much screams anti-druid, but it's power is somewhat lacking next to some of its competitors (*cough cough* ur-priest *cough*).

Would I be able to get Ur-Priest?

[Daftendirekt]

I've never understood the idea that an Antipaladin Blackguard or Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter could Fall (Rise?) for doing Good. Obviously if they go full redemption yeah, but why does an Archfiend or Evil God care if you intermittently pet cute puppies? It seems kind of arbitrary.

Even more mind-boggling is the idea that an Antipaladin (PF) or Paladin of Slaughter (3.5 UA) would have a Code of Conduct. I mean... really? These are the champions of Chaos and Evil, and they sat down one day and said "You know what we need; a list of things we can't do. There is literally no way this could backfire."

Well, good paladins have a code, so of course the evil ones have to as well.

[Psyren]

It summoned a group of highly powerful demons from another plane so that they could be loose on our world to start doing stuff. It was a mission from my other deity, Vecna. Basically, we use a world that has been made up over several years, and things have happened through various time periods, and in the future from where our campaign was these demons (The Jones) have been a very major plot point several times, but nobody ever established how they got there, so I came up with a way to get them there and it was the focus of our campaign. So it accomplished a lot of evil and did a service to us as a group by explaining a part of our world.

Given that in most D&D settings you can only have one patron, you're pretty squarely in homebrew territority and it's up to your DM to decide what will happen or whether OH will take you back.

For what it's worth, from my perspective it would depend on what you hoped to accomplish by summoning them, whether you intended the destruction of nature or it was just an unfortunate side effect, whether you planned to restore nature and how etc. And keep in mind that simply destroying living things isn't necessarily against nature, after all erupting volcanos and other natural disasters do it too.

[The Redwolf]

Given that in most D&D settings you can only have one patron, you're pretty squarely in homebrew territority and it's up to your DM to decide what will happen or whether OH will take you back.

For what it's worth, from my perspective it would depend on what you hoped to accomplish by summoning them, whether you intended the destruction of nature or it was just an unfortunate side effect, whether you planned to restore nature and how etc. And keep in mind that simply destroying living things isn't necessarily against nature, after all erupting volcanos and other natural disasters do it too.

Well it was to try and get my race to emerge from secrecy and take some measure of control for ourselves. See, we didn't know you could only have one deity, it made sense to us that you could have more than one since they're all established and known seeing as they actively interact with the game world. The destruction was an unfortunate side effect because there wasn't another way to power the machine, but I still did it willingly and with the knowledge that it would happen that way.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Would I be able to get Ur-Priest?
If you meet the skill and feat requirements. The fact you're an ex-druid means that your druid levels don't count against you anymore.

Well it was to try and get my race to emerge from secrecy and take some measure of control for ourselves. See, we didn't know you could only have one deity, it made sense to us that you could have more than one since they're all established and known seeing as they actively interact with the game world. The destruction was an unfortunate side effect because there wasn't another way to power the machine, but I still did it willingly and with the knowledge that it would happen that way.

You can revere more than one god, but you're only supposed to have one patron. I'd swear I remember seeing a sidebar somewhere that dealt with converting to another god, so that you could resume divine caster progression. It involved a quest and atonement spell just like getting back in good standing with your current god, IIRC. Though in this case, I'm not sure what nature god would be willing to take you. It's not explicitly stated anywhere, but I don't think most DM's would be okay with you just saying, "I've decided to change my patron. I get my powers back since this god hasn't rescinded them yet." I certainly wouldn't allow it, but I can be kind of strict with divine casters.

[The Redwolf]

Yeah, I wouldn't personally think it reasonable either, I just didn't know if there was a way to get Vecna to give druid powers, unlikely as it may be, since I have him too. The one for a main reverence and then others that you go with too makes sense to me, as it's like many polytheistic religions in reality. They often have one or a few major gods and then others that are less important. In this case, Obad-Hai would have been the most important since he was a druid.

[Psyren]

Even if you didn't know that multiple patrons are impossible, Obad-Hai should have. This scenario relies on him not knowing who his own worshipers really are (including those who are using druid magic), which doesn't really fly with me.

Add the fact that it's more code- than alignment-related and it's just not something I could really adjudicate.

[The Redwolf]

Even if you didn't know that multiple patrons are impossible, Obad-Hai should have. This scenario relies on him not knowing who his own worshipers really are (including those who are using druid magic), which doesn't really fly with me.

Add the fact that it's more code- than alignment-related and it's just not something I could really adjudicate.

It's more of us as a group didn't realize that, like the players and DM. :smallredface:

[Kelb_Panthera]

According to Deities and Demigods, Vecna definitely could not grant druid spells. I just don't see any reasonable way for that character to regain his druid powers.

I'd probably have asked you straight at the time this event took place if you wanted to retrain, PrC into something, or retire the character. Those being the only options I see as viable. You could just hang onto those dead levels but I certainly wouldn't force you to.

[Mithril Leaf]

According to Deities and Demigods, Vecna definitely could not grant druid spells. I just don't see any reasonable way for that character to regain his druid powers.

This is true, but do you actually "need" a god to grant druid powers? Can't you just get them from worshiping a concept, akin to a cleric? It not even broken, just allows you to keep doing what you've been doing.

[Kelb_Panthera]

This is true, but do you actually "need" a god to grant druid powers? Can't you just get them from worshiping a concept, akin to a cleric? It not even broken, just allows you to keep doing what you've been doing.

This is generally true, but some DM's forbid this option, while others (myself included) impose a certain strictness of faith on such characters.

In my game, divine casters that don't serve a god are much more prone to falling, because their faith has to be absolutely uwaivering, since they don't have a divine agent helping to channel the magic through them. A druid that didn't serve a god and commited an atrocity against nature would be unable to redeem himself and would need an atonement from some cleric or druid, and while the former could convert him (allowing him to retrain as a cleric) the latter would want nothing to do with him.

Other DM's might not be so strict, but that's how I would handle it.

[Kuulvheysoon]

This is true, but do you actually "need" a god to grant druid powers? Can't you just get them from worshiping a concept, akin to a cleric? It not even broken, just allows you to keep doing what you've been doing.

We're not talking about divine patrons here - the fact is, the OP broke his druidic oaths (to revere nature) with full knowledge of what he was doing.

IMO, it wouldn't matter if Vecna could grant druids magic - he broke a a separate, but no less binding covenant.

[The Redwolf]

We're not talking about divine patrons here - the fact is, the OP broke his druidic oaths (to revere nature) with full knowledge of what he was doing.

IMO, it wouldn't matter if Vecna could grant druids magic - he broke a a separate, but no less binding covenant.

Actually I'm not the OP, I accidentally hijacked the topic by asking a question that spiraled out of control.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Psyren nailed all there really is to say about the OP's query in his first response.

What we've been doing since is using Redwolf's druid as an example of how this sort of thing might pan out in an actual game.

On the matter of the violation of the druidic oaths, we've been discussing how that relates to the druid's patron (if any) and the difficulty in getting an atonement.

My point has been that, while the details are vague, Redwolf's druid appears to have not only violated the druidic oaths, but to have done so both willingly and to a grand scale.

As a DM I have great difficulty reconciling these actions with the notion of the reverence for nature that druids are supposed to hold. That he even could do something like that seems to me like he probably shouldn't have been a druid to begin with.

If he can convince someone to cast atonement in his name, he gets his power back, by RAW. I'm saying that, in my game, it will be somewhere between exceedingly difficult and impossible for him to actually get someone to cast the spell for him, for a variety of reasons.

[The Redwolf]

Now, would they know what you had done before the cast atonement, or could I bluff them out somehow?

[Psyren]

Now, would they know what you had done before the cast atonement, or could I bluff them out somehow?

Difficult to say. Atonement:


The creature seeking atonement must be truly repentant and desirous of setting right its misdeeds. If the atoning creature committed the evil act unwittingly or under some form of compulsion, atonement operates normally at no cost to you. However, in the case of a creature atoning for deliberate misdeeds and acts of a knowing and willful nature, you must intercede with your deity (requiring you to expend 500 XP) in order to expunge the subject’s burden. Many casters first assign a subject of this sort a quest (see geas/quest) or similar penance to determine whether the creature is truly contrite before casting the atonement spell on its behalf.

"Truly repentant" could be interpreted to mean you can't lie about or even attempt to downplay what you did. After all, if you claim to be sorry for something you didn't actually do, you're not "truly repentant." Furthermore, what you did was willing, so the "intercede with your deity" clause kicks in - and having the caster present false information to their deity (who would arguably know the truth of the matter) could result in the spell failing.

[The Redwolf]

Yeah, good point, forgot about having to intercede with the deity. Since he's the one who took the powers away he probably wouldn't want to give them back either from an atonement...I might just have to write him as turning to a blighter or something honestly...I'll miss my rhino...:smallfrown:

[Kelb_Panthera]

Now, would they know what you had done before the cast atonement, or could I bluff them out somehow?

For the reasons Psyren highlighted, you could conceivably bluff a cleric or druid into casting the spell, but because every nature deity knows what you did, thanks to portfolio sense, the spell would almost certainly fail.

The casting priest might also get a vision telling him why his spell failed, which could get very ugly for your ex-druid. Though that would be a DM fiat ruling.

[Voidling]

umm.. The Redwolf are you a playing a druid or a cleric ?

[The Redwolf]

umm.. The Redwolf are you a playing a druid or a cleric ?

It was a druid.

[Grytorm]

Perhaps you could take time IC to try to restore the area you damaged to earn Atonement?

[ExemplarofAvg]

To level my view on the Druidic issue of Redwolf is Atonement, more than just a spell, I follow karma, you killed X amount of forest, you replant twice that (Never hurts to have extra karma) My question was long answered, and this is a better topic anyways. With alignment it's mostly black and white, but nature reverence is more of a gray area.

[Malroth]

You destroyed hundreds of miles of forest to prevent a time paradox by unleashing an evil upon the world you knew was eventually going to be unleashed. While Obad- hai might revoke your powers for something like this, someone like Cyndor would probably offer you a Job.

[The Redwolf]

You destroyed hundreds of miles of forest to prevent a time paradox by unleashing an evil upon the world you knew was eventually going to be unleashed. While Obad- hai might revoke your powers for something like this, someone like Cyndor would probably offer you a Job.

Not hundreds of miles, I never said that, just a few miles, probably between 10 and 20. Who's Cyndor, are they like an evil druid god, because that could help...

[Malroth]

True Neutral god of Time, Destinity and Planning