Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil gish help

[A_S]

Hey, y'all.

I've been playing around with character builds trying to put together a viable gish that gets its hands on the defensive goodness of Iot7V. So far, what I've got is:

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Human (28 point buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Warrior Skald 1
8 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Cha 16
9 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 3 - Least Legacy
16 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 4 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 1
18 - Legacy Champion 2 - Arcane Strike
19 - Legacy Champion 3
20 - Legacy Champion 4 - Lesser Legacy (b), Cha 19

AC advances Duskblade casting levels 1-4, SC casting level 5. Iot7V advances SC casting. Legacy Champion advances Iot7V.

Skills: Balance 5, Concentration 23, Diplomacy 19, Knowledge (arcana) 13, Knowledge (history) 5, Knowledge (nature) 4, Listen 13, Perform (poetry) 10, Profession (astrologer) 6, Spellcraft: 12

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What I'm looking for is:
-BAB 16 by 20th level
-9th level arcane spells from a good list
-Iot7V 7 class features

The build above gets the job done, but I'm unhappy with it for a few reasons:
-The Apprentice feats are kind of lame, and I was hoping to be able to get my hands on Perform as a class skill by a better avenue, like Harmonious Knight levels.
-Duskblade casting is terrible.
-It's so feat starved I have to put off Arcane Strike until the end of the build.

Can anybody think of improvements that would help it flow better, ideally trading Duskblade out for something good?

[Randomguy]

A simpler, but weaker, solution would be Duskblade 13/Iot7V 7, with Arcane Disciple for a domain that gives an abjuration spell as a 4th level spell, and Dispel Magic as your first 4th level spell known. +16 BAB, 20th level duskblade casting (meh) and arcane channeling as a full attack.

What about:

Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Knight Phantom 6/Iot7V 2/Legacy Champion 6

This would be +16 BAB and level 17 wizard casting, assuming I'm right in thinking that legacy champion loses it's second caster level at level 7.

[A_S]

You're right about the caster level, but unfortunately Legacy Champion is 3/4 BAB, so that build only hits +14.

I was hoping I could come up with some way (possibly leveraging Versatile Spellcaster) to get a Sword of the Arcane Order Paladin access to 3rd level arcane spells by ECL 10, but I couldn't make it work (not enough feats, not enough spell slots, not clear whether a SotAO pally can learn higher level spells than his slots to cast with Versatile Spellcaster).

[Randomguy]

SOTAO mystic ranger can get 3rd level arcane spells by ECL 10. Is there a reason you need it to be paladin in particular? Harmonious knight?

What about:

Bard 1/ SOTAO Mystic ranger 9/ SC 1/ Iot7V 2/ Legacy Champion 6/ Abjurant Champion 1

That's +16 BAB, full Sublime Chord casting and 7 levels of Iot7V progression.

I suppose you could put in more levels of Abjurant Champion earlier on, but I'm not sure you can meet all the skill point requirements for Sublime Chord if you do.

[A_S]

Hmmm, I didn't know about the Mystic Ranger progression...after a little snooping, looks like it's from Dragon? Cool stuff, thanks for pointing it out. It's still only 15 BAB, but swapping Bard out for Warrior Skald solves that.

I'm not entirely sold on the "arcane" status of SotAO spells, though. A Ranger casts "divine spells" per its PHB description. SotAO says "You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells," but it doesn't say anything about whether those spells are arcane or divine, just that you can cast them, so I would think they would default to divine based on the wording of the Ranger class feature. There's maybe a RAI argument based on the fact that you prepare them from a spellbook instead of having them granted by your deity, but I'm not sure about the RAW. Any thoughts on why they might or might not count as arcane?

Regardless, you could always cheese it with Southern Magician or Alternate Source Spell.

So, which do you think would be better, Duskblade or Mystic Ranger? I've realized that you get Legacy feats as bonus for completing the rituals, so the current version of the Duskblade version is now:

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Human (28 point buy)
Str: 16
Dex: 8
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha: 14

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Warrior Skald 1
8 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Cha 16
9 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Empower Spell
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19

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...which at least gets Arcane Strike three levels earlier. Not sure what's better, channeling or access to the Wizard spell list at low levels (and for low level spells, which you miss out on with Sublime Chord).

[Darrin]

I'm not entirely sold on the "arcane" status of SotAO spells, though. A Ranger casts "divine spells" per its PHB description. SotAO says "You can use your paladin and ranger spell slots to prepare wizard spells," but it doesn't say anything about whether those spells are arcane or divine, just that you can cast them, so I would think they would default to divine based on the wording of the Ranger class feature. There's maybe a RAI argument based on the fact that you prepare them from a spellbook instead of having them granted by your deity, but I'm not sure about the RAW. Any thoughts on why they might or might not count as arcane?


You prepare the spells from a spellbook as a wizard. You also use the wizard's casting stat, Int instead of Wis. At that point, if someone tells me they're divine spells, then I call bull**** on that.

Another advantage to using Mystic Ranger, assuming Dragon Material is allowed, is you can use the Strong Arm Combat Style (Dragon #326) to pick up Power Attack at Mystic Ranger 3 instead of Rapid Shot/TWF. If you take Frostblood Orc/Half-Orc as your race, you can swap Endurance at Mystic Ranger 4 for Sword of the Arcane Order (requiress 4 levels of Ranger). That might look something like:

Mystic Ranger 6/Warrior Skald 1/Edritch Knight 3/Sublime Chord 2/IotSV 2/Legacy Champion 6

More Ranger ACFs: Arcane Hunter for Favored Enemy: Arcanists, Trap Expert to trade Track for Trapfinding, Spritual Connection to trade Wild Empathy for speak with animal/plants 3/day.

If you go the Frostblood route, it can be a neat trick to go Dragonborn of Bahumat after you swap Endurance for your bonus feat. Endurance goes way, but you keep the bonus feat. If you held on to Track, you can also trade that for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail.



So, which do you think would be better, Duskblade or Mystic Ranger? I've realized that you get Legacy feats as bonus for completing the rituals, so the current version of the Duskblade version is now:

1 - Duskblade 1 - Apprentice (Entertainer), Power Attack
2 - Duskblade 2 - Combat Casting (b)
3 - Duskblade 3 - Cleave
4 - Duskblade 4 - Cha 15
5 - Duskblade 5
6 - Abjurant Champion 1 - Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
7 - Warrior Skald 1
8 - Abjurant Champion 2 - Cha 16
9 - Abjurant Champion 3 - Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10 - Abjurant Champion 4
11 - Sublime Chord 1
12 - Abjurant Champion 5 - Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration), Cha 17
13 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 1
14 - Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 2
15 - Legacy Champion 1 - Arcane Strike
16 - Legacy Champion 2 - Cha 18
17 - Legacy Champion 3
18 - Legacy Champion 4 - Empower Spell
19 - Legacy Champion 5
20 - Legacy Champion 6 - Cha 19


Well, something else to consider... Duskblade 5 gets you 2nd level spells, if you can bump them up to 3rd via Versatile Spellcaster + Heighten Spell or some other Metamagic + Sanctum Spell, then you can replace Abjurant Champion 4 with Fighter 2/Something 2. Those two Fighter bonus feats could be Power Attack + Cleave. Unfortunately, Duskblade isn't a spontaneous caster, so you'd have to throw Alacritous Cogitation or something else in there, and then maybe Arcane Disciple or Heighten Spell on top of that. Sanctum Spell is a bit more efficient, only requires one other Metamagic, so you could just use Extend Spell + Sanctum Spell.So no real net gain on feats.... you get two bonus feats, but have to pick up two more prereq feats. But you could then slip in a couple levels of something else with full BAB... Warblade 2, for example, or Spirit Lion Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy City Brawler Barbarian 2, maybe.

[Randomguy]

Unfortunately, Duskblade isn't a spontaneous caster,

Actually, it is. Check PHB2, page 19.

[Darrin]

Actually, it is. Check PHB2, page 19.

Thanks, fixed. Versatile Spell + Heighten should work then, or something Metamagic + Sanctum Spell.