Strength to Intimidate without 7 levels in Barbarian

[Morithias]

A barbarian variant gives "Fearsome gaze" at level 7, which lets you use strength instead of charisma on intimidate checks, is there any other way to do this without having to blow 7 levels on a rather lackluster class for what I'm trying to do (orc/half-orc crime lord).

"Ask the DM" is not the answer I'm looking for.

Thanks for the help

[Slipperychicken]

It's a variant rule, actually. I don't remember where, though, but it exists.

[Morithias]

It's a variant rule, actually. I don't remember where, though, but it exists.

You're kidding that's actually a rule? I thought that was just some house rule a lot of people use...

[Wonton]

Since you didn't mention a system, there's a feat in Pathfinder that does this. Doesn't work if you're playing 3.5 though.

[Answerer]

I don't recall seeing it.

Pathfinder's got it as a feat (Intimidating Prowess), if that helps you.

Otherwise I think you're stuck with "ask the DM."

Based on Person_Man's wonderful X stat to Y bonus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) list.

[Spuddles]

Doesn't an orc paragon class give you that?

[RandomLunatic]

It's a variant rule, actually. I don't remember where, though, but it exists.

That would be the 3.0 book Masters of the Wild, which has a sidebar recommending that STR be used for Intimidation if accompanied by a suitable feat of physical prowess.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Isn't there a feat in races of destiny that does? I am away from books ATM.

[AmberVael]

Isn't there a feat in races of destiny that does? I am away from books ATM.

Not quite. Almost- and in many cases this will be better, but...

The feat in question is Dread Tyranny, page 154 of Races of Destiny. It's an initiate feat, so it requires some cleric levels, and worshipping Hextor, but it looks like a pretty nice feat for a cleric. Besides getting Dominate Monster and Black Tentacles on your spell list, it allows you to add your Strength bonus to intimidate checks- but it isn't Strength instead of Charisma, it's in addition to. So if you have positive Charisma (not a bad idea for a cleric) then great! If you wanted to dump Charisma... not so great.

It's definitely a Cleric oriented feat though. Still, easier and better than 7 Barbarian levels.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Not quite. Almost- and in many cases this will be better, but...

The feat in question is Dread Tyranny, page 154 of Races of Destiny. It's an initiate feat, so it requires some cleric levels, and worshipping Hextor, but it looks like a pretty nice feat for a cleric. Besides getting Dominate Monster and Black Tentacles on your spell list, it allows you to add your Strength bonus to intimidate checks- but it isn't Strength instead of Charisma, it's in addition to. So if you have positive Charisma (not a bad idea for a cleric) then great! If you wanted to dump Charisma... not so great.

It's definitely a Cleric oriented feat though. Still, easier and better than 7 Barbarian levels.

Nahh I was thinking of something else. I thought there was a feat that literally said to use your str instead of your charisma... thought it was orc/half orc specific feat or something like that... but that feat also works.

[Morithias]

Not quite. Almost- and in many cases this will be better, but...

The feat in question is Dread Tyranny, page 154 of Races of Destiny. It's an initiate feat, so it requires some cleric levels, and worshipping Hextor, but it looks like a pretty nice feat for a cleric. Besides getting Dominate Monster and Black Tentacles on your spell list, it allows you to add your Strength bonus to intimidate checks- but it isn't Strength instead of Charisma, it's in addition to. So if you have positive Charisma (not a bad idea for a cleric) then great! If you wanted to dump Charisma... not so great.

It's definitely a Cleric oriented feat though. Still, easier and better than 7 Barbarian levels.

I did find that. Could be interesting. Not sure if I can take both it and Disciple of darkness (Mammon) at the same time.

The main reason I want it to be orc is due to that one feat that gives +4 to intimidate and that orc prestige class that lets you find free items. I forget what either is called, but give me 5 minutes and I could look them up.

[LanSlyde]

Figured I would just chime in here, but we usually goes with what makes sense and have intimidate either be charisma based or strength based. Depending on what the PC chooses at level 1. I mean, it just makes sense. The frothing barbarian can intimidate someone with his mighty muscles just as much as the sly rogue can with her force of personality.

[Person_Man]

There's a pretty decent Guide to Fear (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) you may wish to peruse.

Buy I would say that it's not worth spending any class levels or even a Feat to get Str to Intimidate. Skills are relatively easy to boost.

Is there a particular class or build type you would like to start with? Because we could probably add some strong Intimidate options on top of almost anything.

[Morithias]

There's a pretty decent Guide to Fear (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3809.0) you may wish to peruse.

Buy I would say that it's not worth spending any class levels or even a Feat to get Str to Intimidate. Skills are relatively easy to boost.

Is there a particular class or build type you would like to start with? Because we could probably add some strong Intimidate options on top of almost anything.

Well this is going to sound REALLY stupid. But as I've shown in past threads, my latest build revolves around cohorts, and I still have 3 to make (2 'new friends' and one actual cohort as the capstone to the "Connection" prestige class in Ultimate Prestige Volume One.

However, the DM has stated he doesn't want me stealing the combat spotlight, so he's limited me to 3 combat based cohorts, Leith the charger, Yumi the firearms, and Iseria the Blackguard.

This means all my next cohorts have to be support in nature. So far I have his brother Sabin the artificer, and the gnome information broker. I'm thinking this is the concept behind this build.

Knowing he could never completely get rid of crime in his city, Alex saw fit to establish his own holding on the criminal underworld, to this end he sought out the Orc crime lord (insert name here), and helped him/her establish a firm hold. Crime has been holding steady and many of the gangs have been beaten or intimidated into joining this business, not knowing they are indirectly working for the crown.

So it's your basic "running a criminal gang business, so get intimidate as high as possible" stuff. Thinking Disciple of Mammon on one side and Menancing Brute on the other side. That way he/she can boost our gains of any art or gems we steal, and also he/she can find random items to sell for her own purposes. Maybe some orc paragon in there as well who knows.

[God Imperror]

It doesn't solve your problem but having that concept maybe check hardened criminal from stormreach. It makes you immune to intimidate and lets you take 10 with a skill of your choosing (it can be a good feat for support characters)

[Campbellk8105]

Another always great feat for those Intimidating mugs is Imperious Command.

Also, me and my Dm's have ruled in favor that using STR for Intimidate is fair since there isn't a major point in having High Charisma for a barbarian other than being pretty and getting laid.

[Spuddles]

Figured I would just chime in here, but we usually goes with what makes sense and have intimidate either be charisma based or strength based. Depending on what the PC chooses at level 1. I mean, it just makes sense. The frothing barbarian can intimidate someone with his mighty muscles just as much as the sly rogue can with her force of personality.

What if I am an incorporeal wizard that prepared celerity? I feel like no level of frothy muscle flexing would ever make me nervous.

[ThiagoMartell]

Masters of the Wild has that alternate rule. It mentions Barbarians could use Str for intimidate checks if they do something physically impressing (bending bars, flexing muscles, stuff like that).
Half-orc Paragon gets +4 to Intimidate, +2 to Strenght and an extra Rage over 3 levels.
EDIT: Didn't notice someone had mentioned it before (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13688803&postcount=7), sorry.

[Lonely Tylenol]

You may also consider using the variant rules for skill checks with different attributes found in the Dungeon Master's Guide, p. 91 (3.0) pr p. 33 (3.5). This would not change the Intimidate attribute to STR universally, but accompanying a show of brute strength, it would become conditionally appropriate.

[Wyntonian]

I wanna say that the half-orc druid racial sub levels do something like that, but it might have been Handle Animal... I'm AFB, would someone mind checking?

[Gnome Alone]

there isn't a major point in having High Charisma for a barbarian other than being pretty and getting laid.

That's like saying there's no major point in using high powered explosives other than blowing stuff up. It's the whole point!

[LanSlyde]

What if I am an incorporeal wizard that prepared celerity? I feel like no level of frothy muscle flexing would ever make me nervous.

Yes, and your arcane might would cower before the angry barbarians mighty muscles. Even if you were incorporeal, if he made the check you would be cowed into thinking he had some way to get his hands on you.

[Slipperychicken]

What if I am an incorporeal wizard that prepared celerity? I feel like no level of frothy muscle flexing would ever make me nervous.

People get scared of all kinds of things which can't really hurt them. Like spiders, darkness, talking to girls, ghosts, public speaking, bad dreams, tight spaces, open spaces, and so on.

Fear doesn't have to be logical, or even grounded in reality. A lot of the time, it isn't.

[Spuddles]

People get scared of all kinds of things which can't really hurt them. Like spiders, darkness, talking to girls, ghosts, public speaking, bad dreams, tight spaces, open spaces, and so on.

Fear doesn't have to be logical, or even grounded in reality. A lot of the time, it isn't.

There's a HUGE difference between being scared and being intimidated. If you're scared, you've got like -2 to step on the spider. If the spider has you intimidated, then you're bringing it flies and keeping its web tidy. Look up the actual rules to fear effects and intimidate. They're very mechanically different, as they should be.

If someone can be scared of anything, why not use dex to show off your skill with a dagger, or int to demonstrate your cunning and fiendish strategem?

Do this or I'll beat you up is only convincing so far as someone believs you are capable of carrying it out. That's why intimidate is charisma. Str makes sense in certain contexts, but then only if you can actually demonstrate your str mod. Even then, I'd be tempted to add circumstance bonuses instead of replacing cha altogether.

[Tyndmyr]

What if I am an incorporeal wizard that prepared celerity? I feel like no level of frothy muscle flexing would ever make me nervous.

Evolution don't work that way. Things that are scary are scary even if you happen to be prepared for them at the moment.

Besides, it's only shaken. Whatever.

[Spuddles]

Evolution don't work that way.

Since when is real life science even marginally applicable to a rules discussion?


Things that are scary are scary even if you happen to be prepared for them.

Things that are scary require context. The features of a whitewater river that scare me most, you probably wouldn't even notice until you were drowning on them. The ones that are the most fun would scare the **** out of you. Features that used to scare me no longer scare me.

I don't think there's anything innately scary about a muscely dude, especially if you don't have reason to be scared of him. There are so many ways for things to kill you in D&D, big muscles are like the most mundane and least impressive. I'd be more worried about the shadowpouncer than the loud, inarticulate fellow who clearly needs a straight line to do damage. Of course, all that is immaterial to using charisma for intimidate, where that's an actual check to convince me that you have ways of hurting me if I don't co-operate.

With that said, I don't mind class features or feats or skill tricks or what have you that let you use str instead of cha for intimidate. I just don't see it as a default stat assignment.

[LanSlyde]

Since when is real life science even marginally applicable to a rules discussion?

With that said, I don't mind class features or feats or skill tricks or what have you that let you use str instead of cha for intimidate. I just don't see it as a default stat assignment.

So your saying that the classes who revolve around charisma and come with intimidate are perfectly fine, but the classes that revolve around Str should have to take a feat to use their physical prowess to intimidate someone? Even it its just a skill trick or a class feature I really don't see how thats fair for the classes that come with intimidate as a class skill but don't really have any other reason to boost charisma besides having a higher bonus to that single skill.

[Slipperychicken]

I don't think there's anything innately scary about a muscely dude, especially if you don't have reason to be scared of him.

Speaking from experience, even a guy with decently-sized muscles starts looking a lot scarier when he demonstrates the ability to toss you around like a ragdoll. Even with a nice guy who you know isn't going to hurt you, it gets you on-edge to know that he could snap your arm like a twig.

Dogs on leashes can be scary, too. They can't bite you, but they can get your adrenaline going, and that's all it takes to lose focus. Same goes with prisoners; they can be plenty frightening behind bars.

[Spuddles]

Speaking from experience, even a guy with decently-sized muscles starts looking a lot scarier when he demonstrates the ability to toss you around like a ragdoll. Even with a nice guy who you know isn't going to hurt you, it gets you on-edge to know that he could snap your arm like a twig.

Dogs on leashes can be scary, too. They can't bite you, but they can get your adrenaline going, and that's all it takes to lose focus. Same goes with prisoners; they can be plenty frightening behind bars.

You might be on edge, but are you going to agree to suck his- I mean be his friend when he grunts about how swole he is?

[GenghisDon]

Nahh I was thinking of something else. I thought there was a feat that literally said to use your str instead of your charisma... thought it was orc/half orc specific feat or something like that... but that feat also works.

ROD

half orc paladin gets aura of awe (-2 save vs fear)

menacing demenor gives +4 to intimidate checks

menacing brute L1 gives demoralising stare (+PCR level to intim, demoralise lasts +PRC level duration)

half orc paragon 1=monstrous mein (+4 intimidate)

It seems like there is stuff lying all over the game for half orcs to intimidate with. I'm not seeing exactly what you want though.


I wanna say that the half-orc druid racial sub levels do something like that, but it might have been Handle Animal... I'm AFB, would someone mind checking?

yeah, wild empathy..it's called bully animal I think

[Salanmander]

Since when is real life science even marginally applicable to a rules discussion?



...I feel like no level of frothy muscle flexing would ever make me nervous.

I just thought I'd juxtapose these.


In all seriousness, real life became applicable as soon as you brought up reasonable emotional state of humans. (Actually, in fairness, it became relevant as soon as LanSlyde talked about "what makes sense", but you responded in kind.) If it's a pure rules discussion, that doesn't matter. If it's /not/ a pure rules discussion, how human psychology works is vastly relevant. Roleplaying is based on real emotions, motivations, and characterization.

[Spuddles]

I just thought I'd juxtapose these.


In all seriousness, real life became applicable as soon as you brought up reasonable emotional state of humans. (Actually, in fairness, it became relevant as soon as LanSlyde talked about "what makes sense", but you responded in kind.) If it's a pure rules discussion, that doesn't matter. If it's /not/ a pure rules discussion, how human psychology works is vastly relevant. Roleplaying is based on real emotions, motivations, and characterization.

Ah, but in the explicitly dualistic reality of DnD, there's nothing wrong about mental states, as either you're tabula rasa or destined by race, or what have you. Evolution? Nay, man sprung forth from the head of the gods, fully formed.