Catching up a Totemist to the Tier 5 guys

[Kazyan]

Getting this out of the way first: the group I play in doesn't work quite as the usual optimization advice suggests. Blasting has a better track record than save-or-X. Sound Lance is a more problematic spell than Shivering Touch at our table. Further, our level 10 party consists of a healbot Cleric, Sorcerer/Favored Soul theurge, a Feral Knight, a Fighter who hasn't picked most of his feats (he only has Endurance and the Shock Trooper line), and my Totemist. My totemist is the one who keeps getting whomped.

In this recent session, I had to get a Ressurrection after becoming fish food, losing 10,910 gp from my under-level wealth and docking me to level 9. Basically, I'm concerned about not being able to contribute to the party well enough in these conditions, and would like the playground's advice on how to catch up with the other Big Dumb Fighters. (For reference, the Knight is a sword-and-board damage sponge on a horse, and the Fighter's player only learned how to multiclass when I showed him what dipping LST Barbarian would do.)

I have 3187.48gp remaining to spend on account of hoarding, and there's a magic mart available.

Build details, if needed: My build is a Draconic Dwarf Totemist 10, stats of 20/13/20/16/6/11, with the feats Martial Study (Burning Blade), Multiattack, Improved Multiattack, Dragon Wings, Improved Dragon Wings, and Shape Soulmeld (Thunderstep Boots) at 9th level. Flaws are in play; Shaky and Weak-Willed, and the latter is not getting fixed because of character reasons. I have a Healing Belt and Masterwork Chain Shirt, but no other combat-relevant magic items. Maxed skills are Knowledge (Nature), Listen, Spot, Spellcraft, and Handle Animal, using 2 points per level for miscellany.

My soulmeld loadout is usually as follows:
Girallon Arms (Totem Bind, 3 essentia)
Worg Pelt (2 essentia)
Dragon Tail (remaining essentia)
Sphinx Claws (Hands Bind)
Frost Helm (mandatory because this is a Frostburn campaign)
Thunderstep Boots (at level 10, 2 essentia, before I died...)

Standard method of depleting monster HP: pounce on stuff.

[Urpriest]

A few things to consider: your problem is not that you aren't dealing enough damage, but that you keep dying, correct? Since the Fighter probably isn't sporting miss chance or BFC, he's probably living entirely on AC and HP. How much higher is his AC and HP than yours? We can probably bridge that gap pretty easily if we know it.

[Kazyan]

A few things to consider: your problem is not that you aren't dealing enough damage, but that you keep dying, correct? Since the Fighter probably isn't sporting miss chance or BFC, he's probably living entirely on AC and HP. How much higher is his AC and HP than yours? We can probably bridge that gap pretty easily if we know it.

I've only died once, but have been knocked into critical HP quite often. Dunno the Fighter's AC off-hand, but he's wearing full plate, and maybe a Ring of Protection +1--I don't recall who took that loot. His Con mod is at most +2. My AC is 17 + Worg pelt essentia (been concerned aobut this for a while), with 79 HP.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thunderstep Boots are a lot of fun, although why bother when you can get Urksan Greaves in-house for the same damage bonus?


Ask the GM if the spines from Manticore Belt count as natural attacks, you may wish to switch to a ranged combatant from time to time.

You also are definitely wanting some hit point boost, some AC boost, and some damage boost. Totem Avatar does all three. At the same time. Shape and bind it to Shoulder. Essentia invested goes to natural armor, AND you get a free size boost to your natural attacks. Oh, and bonus hit points equal to Meldshaper Level isn't bad either.

So, swap out Thunderstep for Urksan. This frees up your face bind, since Winter Mask sucks, and Urksan Greaves gives you cold resistance, and lets you stick Totem Avatar into your Shoulder slot. It also frees up your Worg Pelt bind, since Totem Avatar does that, and more.

That's just the start, but it could give you a start in the right direction.

[Kazyan]

Thunderstep Boots are a lot of fun, although why bother when you can get Urksan Greaves in-house for the same damage bonus?


Ask the GM if the spines from Manticore Belt count as natural attacks, you may wish to switch to a ranged combatant from time to time.

You also are definitely wanting some hit point boost, some AC boost, and some damage boost. Totem Avatar does all three. At the same time. Shape and bind it to Shoulder. Essentia invested goes to natural armor, AND you get a free size boost to your natural attacks. Oh, and bonus hit points equal to Meldshaper Level isn't bad either.

So, swap out Thunderstep for Urksan. This frees up your face bind, since Winter Mask sucks, and Urksan Greaves gives you cold resistance, and lets you stick Totem Avatar into your Shoulder slot. It also frees up your Worg Pelt bind, since Totem Avatar does that, and more.

That's just the start, but it could give you a start in the right direction.

Canceling a soulmeld tax and freeing up a feat? Sweet; didn't know about those melds. I'll ask the DM about retraining Shape Soulmeld into Bouns Essentia or something.

[Tvtyrant]

My suggestion would be to trade your two dragon wing feats out for other feats and simply get wing grafts. Feathery Wings are only 10k, which is much less expensive in utility than two feats.

[Kazyan]

Getting that graft is a good idea in theory, but for this campaign, it would be a huge headache that eats money and possibly involves character derailment. Thank you, but I'll stick with the feats.

[Tvtyrant]

Getting that graft is a good idea in theory, but for this campaign, it would be a huge headache that eats money and possibly involves character derailment. Thank you, but I'll stick with the feats.

What, your party doesn't have a dedicated team of graftificers and artificers to attend to their every whim? Or use Lesser Planar Binding and simply find a demon to do it? I am shocked and appalled!
I am neither shocked or appalled...

[Spuddles]

3k gold can get you +1 on your chain and a +1 ring. Not sure if your meldshapes are already occupying those slots.

I am guessing standard AC optimization won't do much, cause incarnum doodads are occupying all your item slots, and you don't have the gp to get the pricier pieces.

I know these forums typically scoff at potions and oils, but they're actually pretty worthwhile investments if you tend to have relatively few, and difficult, encounters between loot drops. I suspect potions are superior in low WBL games, as +3 AC in a combat means no dying, as opposed to waiting two or three times as long to get equipment. Sitting on a pile of gold usually ends up being useful only for buying the diamonds to resurrect you with.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You need AC. You should be sporting AC 22 by now, at bare minimum.

Ask the theurge or the cleric for a magic vestment at the beginning of the day.

Look through the soulmeld list again. Girralon arms has you covered on attacks, and the frost helm can be replaced by a cold-weather outfit for chump-change. The rest is wide open. I'd pick up at least the wormtail belt or totem avatar.

Remember that it doesn't actually close the slot off for magic items unless it's bound to that chakra.

[Bloodgruve]

Chaos Roc Span soulmeld from Dragon Mag gives you 2x wing attacks w/o a bind needed. They are non-lethal but its 2 more attacks...

GL
Blood~

[tyckspoon]

Thunderstep Boots are a lot of fun, although why bother when you can get Urksan Greaves in-house for the same damage bonus?


Thunderstep Boots require neither a bind or invested essentia to work- you get bonus damage just for having them shaped (only 1d4, but sometimes every point of essentia counts and it's nice that you can leave the boots 'empty' and still get use of them.) Urskan Greaves must be Bound and be invested to do extra damage; it's a question of which limited resource is most limited- do you need your feats or your Binds more? Most of the time you need the Binds the most.

That said, the Cold Resistance (IIRC, if you're using Frostburn rules having Cold Resistance gives basically the same effect as Endure Elements for surviving in cold temperatures) and bonus to moving in ice and snow could be useful for a Frostburn campaign, and those considerations could make the Greaves more useful for OP's specific concerns.

@OP: Your AC is dangerously low for a melee character at your level. Make your armor magical, get a Ring of Protection, and consider ditching a meld for something more protective- Wormtail Belt is pretty efficient for straight-up AC (2 points for binding +1 per essentia- if you don't already have an Amulet of Natural Armor you should probably be shaping this anyway) and Totem Avatar is a good suggestion for general use if you can spare a Bind slot for it. I'd drop the Worg Pelt, personally, as a 4-point bonus to Hide and Move Silent likely isn't doing much for you.

(Although Wormtail can only be shaped to the Waist, which means you can't use it along with Dragon Tail, since you need the Foot slot to host Thunderstep/Urskan Greaves as a damage enhancer.... incidentally, you'd probably get better damage overall by taking that essentia out of Dragon Tail and putting it in Thunderstep Boots.)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thunderstep Boots require neither a bind or invested essentia to work- you get bonus damage just for having them shaped (only 1d4, but sometimes every point of essentia counts and it's nice that you can leave the boots 'empty' and still get use of them.) Urskan Greaves must be Bound and be invested to do extra damage; it's a question of which limited resource is most limited- do you need your feats or your Binds more? Most of the time you need the Binds the most.

That said, the Cold Resistance (IIRC, if you're using Frostburn rules having Cold Resistance gives basically the same effect as Endure Elements for surviving in cold temperatures) and bonus to moving in ice and snow could be useful for a Frostburn campaign, and those considerations could make the Greaves more useful for OP's specific concerns.

@OP: Your AC is dangerously low for a melee character at your level. Make your armor magical, get a Ring of Protection, and consider ditching a meld for something more protective- Wormtail Belt is pretty efficient for straight-up AC (2 points for binding +1 per essentia- if you don't already have an Amulet of Natural Armor you should probably be shaping this anyway) and Totem Avatar is a good suggestion for general use if you can spare a Bind slot for it. I'd drop the Worg Pelt, personally, as a 4-point bonus to Hide and Move Silent likely isn't doing much for you.

(Although Wormtail can only be shaped to the Waist, which means you can't use it along with Dragon Tail, since you need the Foot slot to host Thunderstep/Urskan Greaves as a damage enhancer.... incidentally, you'd probably get better damage overall by taking that essentia out of Dragon Tail and putting it in Thunderstep Boots.)

That's why I suggested Totem Avatar. Can go in the Shoulder slot, currently unoccupied, get free bonus hit points and invest essentia for natural armor. Frees up Warg Pelt, and gives you two things you need. Later on, you can Bind it to Shoulder for damage increase.

Urksan Greaves frees up the Winter Mask by doing the same thing. It frees up a feat for Thunderstep Boots, at the price of a bind.

At level 10, you have three binds. Obviously, you'll need Gorrilian Arms to Totem and Sphinx Claws to hands, that leaves you with one bind left. Drop that on Urksan Greaves. Drop the mask and the worg pelt, pick up Totem Avatar.

If you are willing to do a one level dip in Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian for auto-pounce, it frees up a much-needed bind so you can slide Totem Avatar into being bound to shoulder for damage increase.

How are you at landing hits? Can you sac a few penalties on attack for extra damage output, or are you having enough trouble hitting as it is? Reason I ask is that the Dread Carapace can act as a power attack for natural attacks, no need to bind it.

Also, pick up the feat Double Bind for your Totem chakra soonest. There are several totems out there that, when bound to Totem, net you a Bite attack that you can include in your natural attack progression. And Dread Carapace doubles its benefits with a bite. Behir Gorget and Ankeg Breastplate are a couple of examples. But really, Heart of Fire is going to be much better. Bonus d4's on all natural attacks. And *MUCH* fewer things are going to be immune to fire in your campaign setting, than on average.

So, if you can pick up Pouncebarian dip, you probably want Gorillian and Heart of Fire bound to totem, and Urksan Greaves bound to feet. Totem Avatar shaped to shoulders, wait until you get another bind to bind it there.

You've got pounce, two separate and stacking sources of d4's on all of your natural attacks, a pile of natural attacks, some extra hit points and AC. The rest of your binds are up to you.

[Kazyan]

New rule for self: Pick melds that do more than one thing.

Double Chakra sounds great on paper, but I've been having neither a bind nor soulmeld to spare that can take advantage of it. Maybe at level 12. Also, thank you for informing me about Wormtail Belt--it turns out that's the one I've actually been shaping this whone time, and have gotten the name mixed up with Worg Pelt. Eheheh...still learning this subsystem, I guess. Chaos Roc's span is disallowed because of a general ban on Dragon Magazine. LST Barbarian dip is tempting, but I'd like to go all the way to Totemist 20+...so I can say I did it, I guess.

Considering everyone's advice, I'll retrain Shape Soulmeld to Bonus Essentia, get the chain shirt enchanted and grab a ring of protection +1. Then, I'll shape the following when I get back to level 10:

Girallon Arms (Totem)
Sphinx Claws (Hands)
Wormtail Belt
Urksan Greaves (Feet)
Totem Avatar
Blink Shirt?

Until then, I'll keep the Urksan Greaves unbound and drop Blink Shirt.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

New rule for self: Pick melds that do more than one thing.

Double Chakra sounds great on paper, but I've been having neither a bind nor soulmeld to spare that can take advantage of it. Maybe at level 12. Also, thank you for informing me about Wormtail Belt--it turns out that's the one I've actually been shaping this whone time, and have gotten the name mixed up with Worg Pelt. Eheheh...still learning this subsystem, I guess. Chaos Roc's span is disallowed because of a general ban on Dragon Magazine. LST Barbarian dip is tempting, but I'd like to go all the way to Totemist 20+...so I can say I did it, I guess.

Considering everyone's advice, I'll retrain Shape Soulmeld to Bonus Essentia, get the chain shirt enchanted and grab a ring of protection +1. Then, I'll shape the following when I get back to level 10:

Girallon Arms (Totem)
Sphinx Claws (Hands)
Wormtail Belt
Urksan Greaves (Feet)
Totem Avatar
Blink Shirt?

Until then, I'll keep the Urksan Greaves unbound and drop Blink Shirt.

Well, the bonus to AC from Wormtail and Totem Avatar do stack, so that's one way to boost AC. However, you need to bind Urksan Greaves to get your d4's.

Also, instead of switching out Shape Soulmeld for Bonus Essentia, if you don't want to dual-bind to Totem, you can Shape Soulmeld for Crystal Helm. While the static bonus is meh, essentia goes to Deflection Bonus to AC. Binding it gives you the Force descriptor, which means it hits incorporeal, but that probably isn't a problem for you.

Blink shirt doesn't really seem that... useful... for you. I mean, DimDoor is fun and all, but it's a standard action use, and you can't do anything else for the rest of your turn. It's primary use is to be bound to totem for Shadowpouncing.

[Godskook]

Dip Psychic Warrior or Ardent, and then straight into Soul Manifester.

Congratulations, you solve your HP, AC and damage problems all in one go.

Expansion gives you up to 2 size bonuses on damage, which allows you to leverage your pre-existing natural attacks better.

Force Screen and Inertial Armor allow you to get more AC than...well pretty much anyone once you get enough MLs(This late in the build, it won't happen pre-epic, though).

And finally, Vigor gives you some handy HP, which you can double via psycrystal and share pain, for some impressive tank power.

If your DM allows retraining, I *STRONGLY* suggest you drop a lot of your Totemist levels for more Soul Manifester levels(keep your build 'natural' though, you don't want anyone saying you couldn't get that way with a non-retrained PC). Also, Psychic Reformation is a lvl 4 Power, so ask your DM if you can find a lvl 11+ Psion who developed an advanced version of it to help enable your transition, which also helps tie down in character why you're changing this way, since you've now got a mentor of psychic studies helping 'awaken' your mind.

Ardent is way more feat intensive, but Psychic Warrior will leave you high and dry with PP a lot more often.

[Kazyan]

I'd like to think +2 essentia is more helpful than Crystal Helm, but you're the incarnum boss.

Blink Shirt is so that I can do literally anything else besides hit things. The Knight and Fighter have turned "hit it with my big metal stick" into a meme at this table. I'd like to be able to do something else, too--I don't actually have a stick. :smalltongue: Maybe Beast Tamer Circlet so I can make friends the next time some saber-toothed tigers ambush us...anything else, really.

[Kazyan]

<Soul Manifester insights>

While this solves my problems handily, a theurge is a different kind of character than a pure incarnum class. If there's a way to fix these problems without moving away from Totemist, I'd like to do so. In a party where none of us actually know how to optimize to the nines (myself included...), lack of multiclassing won't sink the build.

Psychic power is sort of Not Happening for a character with the Weak-Willed flaw, anyway.

[Big Fau]

Realistically, you should be trying to get concealment (be it through a bind or a magic item). One way is to use the Phase Cloak's shoulder bind to turn Ethereal whenever you need to hightail it (and a way to negate the initial AoO moving causes).

[Godskook]

While this solves my problems handily, a theurge is a different kind of character than a pure incarnum class. If there's a way to fix these problems without moving away from Totemist, I'd like to do so. In a party where none of us actually know how to optimize to the nines (myself included...), lack of multiclassing won't sink the build.

I can appreciate this, so don't be too upset at what I post in the next section.

Others have mostly covered the Totemist options, I think, but one that hasn't been covered is the possibility of getting Int to AC, via Carmendine Monk and Swordsage, assuming the relevant books are allowed.

Additionally, getting leadership for a bard cohort(or one of your friends), or finding spells that your casters can buff you with. You scale *REALLY* well with bonus damage. Actually....what about Swift hunter? Fluff-wise, the difference between a ranger, a scout, and a totemist is very, very small, so such a change would be less 'new character direction' and more different training regimens. 5 levels and a feat(2, but Scout 4 gives you a bonus feat) gives you +4d6 Skirmish when you move 20' or more.


Psychic power is sort of Not Happening for a character with the Weak-Willed flaw, anyway.

Honestly, that's mostly a wisdom thing, which while that does cut out Ardent and Psychic Warrior, Psion is actually perfectly in-line with your build so far and your stats. I knee-jerked to Ardent cause I always do, but with your stats, it was actually the bad suggestion. Plus, bonus points for getting an early bonus feat.

[Kazyan]

The spontaneous theurge does have Divine Agility as one of his buffs, so he could use that for AC quickfix. He's been sitting on Blood Wind for a while, anyway. Great suggestion, Godskook!

The Carmendine Monk + Swordsage combination is unlikely to get past the DM, as much as I would like to have that as an option, because we do things more by-the-book than the playground. Multiclassing penalties are in effect, so I doubt that it will go over well to waive Carmendine Monk's fluff requirement while crowbarring it onto a class from a book that our table has mixed feelings about. The penalties also make Swift Hunter difficult. If anything, I'd prefer to take Scout further, but, whatever. Perhaps I could convince him to lose the penalties.

As for Psion, besides the penalty argument, psionics is heavily associated with willpower in other media at least, so why in the world would it manifest (pfftch) in someone with such an anemic mind?

Anyway, I like the way you think. I'll keep the suggestions in mind.

(For the "you suck at 3.5 for disliking ToB" thing that I'm sure will come up, it should go in another thread, please. Not relevant here.)

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Everyone in your group that doesn't like Tome of Battle sucks for having their own opinion that they're entitled to. :smalltongue:

Kidding aside, a good bind to think about is the Shadow Mantel. I know it would be fighting Totem Avatar for your shoulder slot, but if you're in melee more then ranged combat, it could help alleviate some of the damage you've been taking.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Everyone in your group that doesn't like Tome of Battle sucks for having their own opinion that they're entitled to. :smalltongue:

Kidding aside, a good bind to think about is the Shadow Mantel. I know it would be fighting Totem Avatar for your shoulder slot, but if you're in melee more then ranged combat, it could help alleviate some of the damage you've been taking.

Shadow mantle would be nigh worthless to him, other than a 20% concealment miss chance. Remember, all it does is Darkness. Heck, for that matter, he could just dip a level of Warlock and do that. Plus, he'd have to actually BIND it to shoulder to get it to work. He's short enough on binds as it is.

You may also wish to consider Pouncebarian then Totem Rager. It might get you some more essentia to invest in your binds.

[Godskook]

The spontaneous theurge does have Divine Agility as one of his buffs, so he could use that for AC quickfix. He's been sitting on Blood Wind for a while, anyway. Great suggestion, Godskook!

I'm trying!!


The Carmendine Monk + Swordsage combination is unlikely to get past the DM, as much as I would like to have that as an option, because we do things more by-the-book than the playground. Multiclassing penalties are in effect, so I doubt that it will go over well to waive Carmendine Monk's fluff requirement while crowbarring it onto a class from a book that our table has mixed feelings about.

Sorry, confused Carmendine with Ascetic Mage, wording-wise. Carmendine, by RAW, still works with a monk's belt, assuming you're fulfilling the fluff requirements. Also, if you have reasonable sources of armor and shield AC without actually wearing them, a monk dip wouldn't exactly hurt either.


The penalties also make Swift Hunter difficult. If anything, I'd prefer to take Scout further, but, whatever. Perhaps I could convince him to lose the penalties.

Just ask your DM to let you treat Totemist as a Favored Class. That alone will clean up all your multi-class issues, since you can easily keep Ranger and Scout even with each other just fine(You lose a feat unless you take 7+ levels of it though).


As for Psion, besides the penalty argument, psionics is heavily associated with willpower in other media at least, so why in the world would it manifest (pfftch) in someone with such an anemic mind?

1.All your poor mental acuity is wisdom based(will associates with wisdom). Psion is int-based. Mechanically, nothing you've got prevents this idea.

2.Fluff-wise, Psion is described as one who achieves power through knowledge of self in much the same way that a mechanic makes a car go through knowledge of cars. The fact that you're hyper-intelligent means you'd work well with this. If it helps, its much akin to Ussop from One Piece. He's really intelligent, but has the wisdom of mayonaise and just enough charisma to avoid being executed for annoyance. If someone told him that flicking the wrist to the left while thinking of chicken produced a fireball, he'd turn into a pyromancer.

3.Character Development. A character who doesn't go places and change isn't a real character anymore.

[Kazyan]

Godskook, you make a good case for your ideas. I will bring up the possibility of a Favored Class switch to the DM, and then talk about Soul Manifester. It would actually be a great way to do character development, as you suggest, if he an spare the plot time. Also, Psionic Open Chakra could be useful, depending on the DM's interpretation on whether or not it grants a bind.

[Godskook]

Also, Psionic Open Chakra could be useful, depending on the DM's interpretation on whether or not it grants a bind.

Frankly, I don't see opening chakras without granting binds to be all that useful. Its like giving someone the door-key to a car, but not the ignition-key, and expecting them to drive. This is especially bad because chakras are semi-front loaded in what they can do(at least on Totemist), and so unlocking later chakras doesn't do much except free up slots for easier combinations. At least when you grant the bind, you're actually giving them something useful, a bonafide resource.

So, while I see debatability in the RAW of how it works, I see none in the RAI, since ruling that no 'bind' is given makes the ability non-functional, both when we're talking about the feats and the psionic power.