Some changes to magic for my own sanity

[Phosphate]

Mind you, these changes are not done with balance in mind. Truly, some make magic even more powerful. They are simply a way to increase verisimilitude.

And yes, I realise in my attempt I might be missing some key ones. Tis' still a developing list.

1. Rule of You Can't Freaking Dodge That
This replaces the text of Evasion:

If the character makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. If the attack is an area of effect, the character benefits from the effect of Evasion only if he has a form of cover from the epicenter or is 10 feet or less away from an edge of the area. You must wear light or no armor for Evasion to apply.

2. Rule of Dispersion Man
Cloudkill and the other cloud spells can be cast underwater normally, but if cast outside of liquid, can't penetrate liquid as normal.
3. Rule of Hey I Just Got this Tentacle
Polimorphed characters are NOT treated as being proficient with their own natural weapons.
4. Rule of Gotta Cling to Life
If through ability damage or drain the charisma score of a ghost is dropped below 10, it is dropped.
5. Rule of What's There to Miss Anyway?
The rule that states spells have a 50% chance to miss incorporeal targets does not apply to mind-affecting spells.
6. Rule of Does this REALLY Resemble the Original?
When attempting to counterspell a spell with the casting of the same spell, and the target spell has at least two metamagic feats applied to it, in order to successfuly counterspell, you must apply all but one of the metamagic feats on the target spell to your spell. This changes to all but two with Improved Counterspell. It can still be dispelled normally by features such as Countersong or spells like Dispel Magic or Dispel Magic, Greater.
7. Rule of It's a Miracle you've Passed your Exams Anyway
If you've been born blind and you've always been blind, you can't receive visual imput from scrying spells.
8. Rule of It Ain't Endless Y'know
After you cast 5 spells with negligible cost material components using a spell component pouch, the next 5 such spells have only a 50% chance that you have the necessary components at hand (finding out beforehand is a move action). After all those 10 spells, you need to refill your pouch or buy a new one. Refilling takes 4 hours in a metropolis, 12 hours in any other form of urban settlement, and 24 hours elsewhere.

When attempting to refill your pouch in a non-urban settlement, you may make a single Survival check. If the result is above 20, for every point reduce the time it takes to refill by 1 hour, up to a minimum time of 12 hours needed.
9. Rule of Aviatory School Don't Take 1 Round
Unless you're polimorphed into something that has perfect or clumsy maneouverability in flight, you fly at a one step worse maneouverability than a true member of that race.
10. Rule of Knowledge From the Shade, I don't Think So
You can only emulate spells you know or have in your spellbook with shadow evocation and shadow conjuration.
11. Rule of Actual No Retention
If some pages of a wizard's spellbook are ruined in such a way that a spell is left incomplete (for instance, you have only 6 pages from a level 8 spell), the spell is not one of the 2 spells you gain through your normal class progression, and you no longer have the original source out of which you transcribed the spell, it is lost.
12. Rule of Watch Your Wardrobe
Spells that bestow their effects on a creature as well as their equipment, such as Endure Elements, bestow the effect only on the equipment worn by the creature at that time. For instance, if such spell is cast on a creature while wearing Hide armor and then, while the effect is still ongoing, changes to Chain Shirt, the effect does not protect the Chain Shirt (it still protects the wearer, and it still lingers on the hide armor).

[JKTrickster]

Mind you, these changes are not done with balance in mind. Truly, some make magic even more powerful. They are simply a way to increase verisimilitude.

And yes, I realise in my attempt I might be missing some key ones. Tis' still a developing list.

Okay that's a fair warning I suppose. These aren't changes for balance...but what seems most logical to you?

So...pardon me asking but why post it on the board? Do you want us to make sure your logic is sound?



1. Rule of You Can't Freaking Dodge That
If a character with Evasion or Improved Evasion makes a succesful reflex save against an area of effect spell that deals half damage on a succesful save, and is in the very center of the spell's area, he still takes half damage, as if he didn't have Evasion or Improved Evasion.
2. Rule of Dispersion Man
Cloudkill and the other cloud spells can be cast underwater normally, but if cast outside of liquid, can't penetrate liquid as normal.
3. Rule of Hey I Just Got this Tentacle
Shapeshifted characters are NOT treated as being proficient with their own natural weapons.
4. Rule of Gotta Cling to Life
If through ability damage or drain the charisma score of a ghost is dropped below 6, it is dropped.
5. Rule of What's There to Miss Anyway?
The rule that states spells have a 50% chance to miss incorporeal targets does not apply to mind-affecting spells.
6. Rule of Does this REALLY Resemble the Original?
A spell with at least two metamagic feats applied to it can't be counterspelled by a casting of the same spell. It can still be dispelled normally by features such as Countersong or spells like Dispel Magic or Dispel Magic, Greater.
7. Rule of It's a Miracle you've Passed your Exams Anyway
If you've been born blind and you've always been blind, you can't receive visual imput from scrying spells.
8. Rule of It Ain't Endless Y'know
After you cast 5 spells with negligible cost material components using a spell component pouch, the next 5 such spells have only a 50% chance that you have the necessary components at hand (finding out beforehand is a move action). After all those 10 spells, you need to refill your pouch or buy a new one. Refilling takes 8 hours in a metropolis, 24 hours in any other form of urban settlement, and 2 days elsewhere.
9. Rule of Aviatory School Don't Take 1 Round
Unless you shapeshift into something that has perfect or clumsy maneouverability in flight, you fly at a one step worse maneouverability than a true member of that race.

Most of these could make sense I suppose. Of course I could always make arguments about why they wouldn't, but that becomes a matter of my own personal preferences than any real logical oversight on your part.

The only one that seems questionable for me is the Spell Component Pouch one - why do you limit it to 10 spells? Just wondering how you got the number.

But this one...



10. Rule of Let's Be Real Here, Transmutation
You can't cast cat's grace on a feline, fox' cunning on a fox, etc.

Any reason why? :smallconfused:

I can't even imagine someone wasting a spell slot on an animal...and even if they did, why shouldn't it work?

[Hexalan]

Heh, nice names. I like most of these, but maybe there should be some sort of proficiency gaining system? Like, you've spent this much time as a bird, now you can fly well? Or maybe an additional spell that grants you proficiency?

And as for rule 10, I think the names or metaphorical. "Oh bulls are really strong, so let's call this new spell 'Bull's Strength' instead 'Now you are super-strong and stuff'!"

[Vadskye]

#1 - Why specifically hose a class feature? I could see some argument for not granting any Reflex save at all (though I would disagree with that), but it the whole point of Evasion is that yes, they can freakin' dodge that. Evasion is a special ability that represents superhuman agility.

#4 - Ghosts aren't subject to ability drain (they're undead), so no need to include that.

#6 - The wording is weird - it seems to say that you can't counterspell an Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray with another Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray. Might want to tweak that.

#7 - Why should magic change based on your ability? Scry is the same spell regardless. I'm just not sure what the point is.

#8 - Agh, sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare to me. So I have to keep track of how many times I cast every spell? Am I capable of buying extra copies of the same component? If so, we're basically on a "keep track of every spell component you use" system, which nobody uses because it's dumb. If not, then you start breaking suspension of disbelief. What magical property of spell component pouches only allows them to hold a random number of components that lies somewhere between 5 and 10, but not even the greatest of wizards can figure out how many beforehand? It's Schrodinger's Spell Component Pouch! (Actually, that sounds like a really fun cursed magic item. I might use that...)

#10 - I dunno, I think if you're going to go this route, it would make more sense to give those spells an enhanced effect on creatures of the appropriate type. I mean, foxes have Int 2. That means that, if you want a smart animal (don't ask me why...), you can choose any animal except a fox. Not exactly fitting.

[Phosphate]

Okay that's a fair warning I suppose. These aren't changes for balance...but what seems most logical to you?

So...pardon me asking but why post it on the board? Do you want us to make sure your logic is sound?

I thought that was one of the functionalities of the homebrew subforum is all :)).

And also, I'd like to hear suggestions from you about what to add.


The only one that seems questionable for me is the Spell Component Pouch one - why do you limit it to 10 spells? Just wondering how you got the number.

It is random. I picked it because the player's handbook fails to contain pouches of different sizes. Which IS a good idea :).


Any reason why?

That one was purely satirical :)). Sorry. Will remove.


I can't even imagine someone wasting a spell slot on an animal...

If you ask me, animal companions/familiars are overpowered as a class feature. Buffing them makes them even better.


Heh, nice names. I like most of these, but maybe there should be some sort of proficiency gaining system? Like, you've spent this much time as a bird, now you can fly well? Or maybe an additional spell that grants you proficiency?

I like the way weapons are handled. Through feats. Feats that improve shapeshifting make a lot of sense to me anyway.


And as for rule 10, I think the names or metaphorical. "Oh bulls are really strong, so let's call this new spell 'Bull's Strength' instead 'Now you are super-strong and stuff'!"

Bingo =))


#1 - Why specifically hose a class feature? I could see some argument for not granting any Reflex save at all (though I would disagree with that), but it the whole point of Evasion is that yes, they can freakin' dodge that. Evasion is a special ability that represents superhuman agility.

I'm definitely not the first nor the last one to make that argument about evasion. Superhuman agility, ok, but it's still Extraordinary and it basically represents a movement that takes less distance than 5 feet. Why SHOULD you walk out of the centre of a fireball unharmed, if there was no way to duck? Again, I'm talking logic, not balance.


#4 - Ghosts aren't subject to ability drain (they're undead), so no need to include that.

Google it.


#6 - The wording is weird - it seems to say that you can't counterspell an Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray with another Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray. Might want to tweak that.

You can't counterspell an Empowered Maximized Scorching Ray with another Scorching Ray. Will tweak it.


#7 - Why should magic change based on your ability? Scry is the same spell regardless. I'm just not sure what the point is.

No, scry is directly based on the personal perception of the scryer.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm


#8 - Agh, sounds like a bookkeeping nightmare to me. So I have to keep track of how many times I cast every spell? Am I capable of buying extra copies of the same component? If so, we're basically on a "keep track of every spell component you use" system, which nobody uses because it's dumb. If not, then you start breaking suspension of disbelief. What magical property of spell component pouches only allows them to hold a random number of components that lies somewhere between 5 and 10, but not even the greatest of wizards can figure out how many beforehand? It's Schrodinger's Spell Component Pouch! (Actually, that sounds like a really fun cursed magic item. I might use that...)

Um...not as such, no. This is how it works normally:

You have a spell component pouch. You can use stuff from it forever and ever and ever. You don't need to know what components you'll need.

And this is how it works with my fix:

You have a spell component pouch. For the first 5 spells with material components you can go wild. Doesn't matter what specific spells or what specific components. For the next 5 things are a little hazy. You can refill your pouch at ANY time, but it will take a while.

Seems legit to me.

[Yitzi]

-Rule 3 and rule 9 should apply for all polymorph effects rather than just shapeshift, or else it makes even less sense (and from what I can see, "making sense" is the main goal here.)
-Rule 4 never applies without exotic features anyway, as undead are immune to ability damage or drain. If it does apply, it should apply whenever the ghost is brought below CHA 10; the requirement of CHA 6 is so it has 10 after the template bonus.
-Rule 6 should be generalized so you need to have all but 1 of the metamagic feats applied. (If you can't counter a 2-metamagic spell with a 0-metamagic spell, the same should hold for countering a 3-metamagic spell with a 1-metamagic spell.) Improved Counterspell should also be on the list of things that can counter it normally.
-Does Rule 8 means specifically when it's the same component for all 10 spells? If so, you probably should say that explicitly. Also, once you find you don't have it, then the next spell also doesn't have it even if you haven't used all 10 yet. Although that comes out to a 50% chance of 5, 25% of 6, 12.5% of 7, and so on...maybe it makes more sense just to have a new or refilled pouch have 1d6+4 of each component. (Of course, you can get a second pouch, or buy separately, if you want more without refilling...)
If not, then it makes even less sense. If you pulled out components A,B,C,D, and E, why should that affect the chance that component F is in there afterward?

[Baron Corm]

I'm definitely not the first nor the last one to make that argument about evasion. Superhuman agility, ok, but it's still Extraordinary and it basically represents a movement that takes less distance than 5 feet. Why SHOULD you walk out of the centre of a fireball unharmed, if there was no way to duck? Again, I'm talking logic, not balance.

It would make sense to me that you move up to your speed when you completely ignore damage from a spell with Evasion, but lose a move action on your next turn. Even if you're on the edge of it, I don't see how you're dodging without moving. It's not the fireball whizzing past you, it is the explosion at the end of it. If you can't move farther than the edge of the spell, you only ignore half the damage.

[Amechra]

Look, with the right magic item, and a generous definition of attack (i.e., if you count hitting the ground as part of being thrown as an attack), you can dodge the ground with Evasion.

I find no issue with you twisting yourself in such a way that you escape harm; they dodged each individual part of that explosion, thank you very much.

Remember, Extraordinary abilities explicitly state in the basic definition that they are capable of breaking the laws of physics; seriously, take a look at some Ex abilities floating around among monsters and the like.

[Vadskye]

I'm definitely not the first nor the last one to make that argument about evasion. Superhuman agility, ok, but it's still Extraordinary and it basically represents a movement that takes less distance than 5 feet. Why SHOULD you walk out of the centre of a fireball unharmed, if there was no way to duck? Again, I'm talking logic, not balance.
My response to that is just "Why should you walk out of being 5' away from the center of the fireball unharmed, if there was no way to duck?" Why do you get a Reflex save at all in a confined space with no obstacles? The only answer I can think of is that a Fireball is not a perfectly uniform ball of flame; instead, like a real flame, it has parts in the 20' burst where tongues of flame shoot outward and other parts where it is cooler. Anyone, if they make a Reflex save, can avoid being caught in the middle of a flare. A character with Evasion can avoid the flares at all, finding the cool spots in the eye of the storm.

Google it.
I actually looked it up in the Monster Manual before responding, because I was surprised that undead could suffer any sort of ability decrease at all. I wasn't correcting you that Ghosts can take Charisma damage; that much is true. I was just pointing out that undead are not subject to any ability drain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm). It was just a clarification; the rule works fine for banishing Ghosts with Charisma damage.


No, scry is directly based on the personal perception of the scryer.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm
Ah, got it. I guess I'm not sure why being born blind does (or should) make any difference; if it's already in the rules that you can't receive visual input from scrying spells while blind, what does this change?


Um...not as such, no. This is how it works normally:

You have a spell component pouch. You can use stuff from it forever and ever and ever. You don't need to know what components you'll need.

And this is how it works with my fix:

You have a spell component pouch. For the first 5 spells with material components you can go wild. Doesn't matter what specific spells or what specific components. For the next 5 things are a little hazy. You can refill your pouch at ANY time, but it will take a while.

Seems legit to me.
Casting only 5 guaranteed spells a day seems legit to you? Do you play arcane casters? I mean, I guess this sort of works if you just plan on carrying around 10 spell component pouches at all times. 20lb isn't that bad, even for a sissy wizard. It doesn't scale at all into high levels, though.

[Hexalan]

Casting only 5 guaranteed spells a day seems legit to you? Do you play arcane casters? I mean, I guess this sort of works if you just plan on carrying around 10 spell component pouches at all times. 20lb isn't that bad, even for a sissy wizard. It doesn't scale at all into high levels, though.

I think we should get different sizes of components bags, like one that hold 20 spells, one that holds 100, one that holds 500, etc. After your number of spells runs out, then you have a 10% chance of not having components, which then increases like ranged increments. Opening and looking into your bag to make sure you have your stuff is a move action. If you try to cast a spell without the proper components will net an AoO but no spell cast.

Then I think you could refill your bag in two ways, either buying new supplies or trying to find them. A Survival check with every integer above 5 nets you 10 spells worth of components. Otherwise, you can go into a center of population and d20 roll for...

Base DC: 15 (It's ok to go into negative)
Subtract 1 for every degree/half of population, i.e if you had 50 people, that would be -3 (5-10-50), or if there was 130,000 it would be -10 (5-10-50-100-500-1,000-5,000-10,000-50,000-100,000). Over an entire day, you get 10 spells worth of supplies for each numeral above the new DC. You also spend 5 gp over the entire purchase.

[Vadskye]

I think we should get different sizes of components bags, like one that hold 20 spells, one that holds 100, one that holds 500, etc.

<snipped rules for making checks>
Here's the way this plays out in practice. Let's say I'm a wizard. Every time I cast a spell, I write a little tally mark on my character sheet. If that tally mark ever reaches some huge number before I make it back to town, I have no class features. If we do make it back to a town, I have to spend a random but extensive amount of time in town whenever possible, making the rest of the party wait for me so that I can keep using my class features. While I'm there, I'll probably run into other wizards trying to do the same thing, since it takes a really long time to track down my 50 spell components. However, despite the fact that these materials are now in large demand, they are still simultaneously very cheap and very hard to find.

What I'm saying is, I'm not sure this is helping the realism of the scenario any.

[Phosphate]

-Rule 3 and rule 9 should apply for all polymorph effects rather than just shapeshift, or else it makes even less sense (and from what I can see, "making sense" is the main goal here.)

Agreed. Will change.


-Rule 4 never applies without exotic features anyway, as undead are immune to ability damage or drain. If it does apply, it should apply whenever the ghost is brought below CHA 10; the requirement of CHA 6 is so it has 10 after the template bonus.

Noted.


-Rule 6 should be generalized so you need to have all but 1 of the metamagic feats applied. (If you can't counter a 2-metamagic spell with a 0-metamagic spell, the same should hold for countering a 3-metamagic spell with a 1-metamagic spell.) Improved Counterspell should also be on the list of things that can counter it normally.

That is what I intended, but your wording is much clearer, thanks.


-Does Rule 8 means specifically when it's the same component for all 10 spells?

No.

maybe it makes more sense just to have a new or refilled pouch have 1d6+4 of each component.

That sounds like too much bookkeeping for most people to use, but I would use it personally.


If you pulled out components A,B,C,D, and E, why should that affect the chance that component F is in there afterward?

Because pouches have limited space and components A, B, C, D, and E already cover a good bulk of it, limiting the probability that something else is there. As an analogy, let's say you're playing poker and your opponent has 5 cards in his hand, dealt randomly, all things equal. There is a 1-C(48, 5)/C(52, 5) chance that any one of his cards is an ace. Then he discards 3 cards, which you can see are not aces. What is the chance that out of the 2 remaining hands at least one is an ace? 1-C(45, 2)/C(49, 2). Which is smaller.


It would make sense to me that you move up to your speed when you completely ignore damage from a spell with Evasion, but lose a move action on your next turn. Even if you're on the edge of it, I don't see how you're dodging without moving. It's not the fireball whizzing past you, it is the explosion at the end of it. If you can't move farther than the edge of the spell, you only ignore half the damage.

That's a rewriting of Evasion. And I'm not saying I'm not ok with it, I find it perfectly fine, but it's a different class feature.

Maybe I'll use it, though. Thanks.


Look, with the right magic item, and a generous definition of attack (i.e., if you count hitting the ground as part of being thrown as an attack), you can dodge the ground with Evasion.

I find no issue with you twisting yourself in such a way that you escape harm; they dodged each individual part of that explosion, thank you very much.

Remember, Extraordinary abilities explicitly state in the basic definition that they are capable of breaking the laws of physics; seriously, take a look at some Ex abilities floating around among monsters and the like.

Yep. It makes me uneasy.


My response to that is just "Why should you walk out of being 5' away from the center of the fireball unharmed, if there was no way to duck?" Why do you get a Reflex save at all in a confined space with no obstacles? The only answer I can think of is that a Fireball is not a perfectly uniform ball of flame; instead, like a real flame, it has parts in the 20' burst where tongues of flame shoot outward and other parts where it is cooler. Anyone, if they make a Reflex save, can avoid being caught in the middle of a flare. A character with Evasion can avoid the flares at all, finding the cool spots in the eye of the storm.

Cool spots or no cool spots, Fireball is an explosion, not a simple flame, so that's why I believe it should hit everything consistently.

Anyway, the "being in the very center is a no-no" thing was something I decided on after much pandering. My first errata was "evasion works ONLY if you are within 10 feet or less of an edge". You think that would be better?


It was just a clarification; the rule works fine for banishing Ghosts with Charisma damage.

Ok :).


Ah, got it. I guess I'm not sure why being born blind does (or should) make any difference; if it's already in the rules that you can't receive visual input from scrying spells while blind, what does this change?

It's not clear enough. My rule is a clarification mostly.


Casting only 5 guaranteed spells a day seems legit to you? Do you play arcane casters? I mean, I guess this sort of works if you just plan on carrying around 10 spell component pouches at all times. 20lb isn't that bad, even for a sissy wizard. It doesn't scale at all into high levels, though.

First of all, as I said, adding that rule would impose the creation of different size pouches. Second of all, spells without material components can still be used freely.


I think we should get different sizes of components bags, like one that hold 20 spells, one that holds 100, one that holds 500, etc. After your number of spells runs out, then you have a 10% chance of not having components, which then increases like ranged increments. Opening and looking into your bag to make sure you have your stuff is a move action. If you try to cast a spell without the proper components will net an AoO but no spell cast.

All fine.


Then I think you could refill your bag in two ways, either buying new supplies or trying to find them. A Survival check with every integer above 5 nets you 10 spells worth of components. Otherwise, you can go into a center of population and d20 roll for...

Well the "finding them" bit I believe I covered with it taking 2 days in non-urban environments to find what you need. But then, making Survival checks to reduce the time needed seems good to me.


Here's the way this plays out in practice. Let's say I'm a wizard. Every time I cast a spell, I write a little tally mark on my character sheet. If that tally mark ever reaches some huge number before I make it back to town, I have no class features.

How so? There are more spells without material components than spells with.



If we do make it back to a town, I have to spend a random but extensive amount of time in town whenever possible, making the rest of the party wait for me so that I can keep using my class features. While I'm there, I'll probably run into other wizards trying to do the same thing, since it takes a really long time to track down my 50 spell components. However, despite the fact that these materials are now in large demand, they are still simultaneously very cheap and very hard to find.

Well of course. Just like in real world - an average person uses up 2 disposable razors a week, everyone uses them, and they stay dirt cheap. Large demand doesn't always lead to scarcity, not when manufacture is virtually costless, or LITERALLY costless in the case of components like seaweed or a pinch of salt.

[Vadskye]

Cool spots or no cool spots, Fireball is an explosion, not a simple flame, so that's why I believe it should hit everything consistently.

Anyway, the "being in the very center is a no-no" thing was something I decided on after much pandering. My first errata was "evasion works ONLY if you are within 10 feet or less of an edge". You think that would be better?
From a balance perspective, no - but that's a separate issue. Is it more realistic? I'd say yes; it removes the arbitrary distinction between being able to dodge a Fireball targeted 5' away (making the closest exit 15' away) but being unable to dodge a Flame Strike targeted on the rogue (making the closest exit 10' away).

Actually, even more realistic than the vague term "an edge" would be "The rogue can only use Evasion if he has cover from the blast". You might also allow concealment granted by physical objects to also allow the use of Evasion.
Or, to be more generous, have Evasion grant the rogue the ability move up to 10' as an immediate action if they make the Reflex save - and if they manage to leave the spell's area of effect or get behind cover (or concealment) during that time, they take no damage from the effect. Very similar mechanically if you're in the right terrain, so it shouldn't be terribly unbalancing, but it should fit the realism you're looking for.
(Of course, the issue of "where did the rogue get that extra movement?" will come up, and that raises a whole new set of issues...)


How so? There are more spells without material components than spells with.
Fair enough; I just did a search of the SRD, and I found 194 spells with material components and 607 total, so call it 1/3 of all spells have material components. I'd guess that a disproportionate number of spells with material components are sor/wiz spells, but you're right - saying a wizard lacks class features is an exaggeration.

With that said, the system does force players to know which spells use material components and which don't. And to keep a blank sheet of paper around which will hold nothing but tally marks to see if you're reached 500 marks yet. Exciting.


Well of course. Just like in real world - an average person uses up 2 disposable razors a week, everyone uses them, and they stay dirt cheap. Large demand doesn't always lead to scarcity, not when manufacture is virtually costless, or LITERALLY costless in the case of components like seaweed or a pinch of salt.
True - but I can just go to a store and buy a disposable razor. If material components are in significant demand (which they would be in a world with wizards), why can't I just go to Ye Olde Bat Guano Emporium and not spend days tracking the silly things down?

Other realism-breaking oddities: does it take the same amount of time to fill a small bag (10) as it does to fill a large bag (500)? I don't think there's a good answer to that question.

[Phosphate]

Actually, even more realistic than the vague term "an edge" would be "The rogue can only use Evasion if he has cover from the blast".

I'll use both.


You might also allow concealment granted by physical objects to also allow the use of Evasion.

Physical objects never grant concealment, by RAW. They always grant cover and cover alone.


(Of course, the issue of "where did the rogue get that extra movement?" will come up, and that raises a whole new set of issues...)

Which is why I'd rather not.


With that said, the system does force players to know which spells use material components and which don't. And to keep a blank sheet of paper around which will hold nothing but tally marks to see if you're reached 500 marks yet. Exciting.

Seems fair to me.


True - but I can just go to a store and buy a disposable razor. If material components are in significant demand (which they would be in a world with wizards), why can't I just go to Ye Olde Bat Guano Emporium and not spend days tracking the silly things down?

Answer down there v


Other realism-breaking oddities: does it take the same amount of time to fill a small bag (10) as it does to fill a large bag (500)? I don't think there's a good answer to that question.

From my perspective, the answer is YES. The bulk of the time is not spent collecting more of a single component, but shifting from different shop to different shop.

Also, I've halved all refill times for convenience if you check the rule.

[Reluctance]

I like how rules that require micromanaging spell components and remembering which spells were learned how are listed as pro-sanity. I wonder how long the component pouch thing will last when Phosphate runs enemy casters.

I also like how "realism" is applied to mundanes who count as legendary. (Rogues can pick up Improved Evasion at 10th level at the earliest. Legend Lore specifically calls out 11+ as legendary.) Hit points and a lack of reactive movement, both from dodging and from the explosion itself, are greater threats to verisimilitude than some EX abilities.

OP might want to try something of the AD&D persuasion. "Realism" was big back then. Many "realistic" rules were cut because players didn't want to deal with the associated hassle.

[Vadskye]

Physical objects never grant concealment, by RAW. They always grant cover and cover alone.
Not completely true. When I said that, I was specifically thinking of undergrowth, which is a physical object (well, a bunch of physical objects) that grants concealment. I could see a rogue diving into the undergrowth for Evasion. Similar situations could apply with other physical objects that grant concealment.


From my perspective, the answer is YES. The bulk of the time is not spent collecting more of a single component, but shifting from different shop to different shop.
Then that brings up a second question: Does it take the same amount of time to refill my supply of one ingredient (which would take one shop) as it does to fill up my supply of ten different ingredients (which would take a bunch of shops)?


Also, I've halved all refill times for convenience if you check the rule.
Cool. That helps.


<snip>
Yes. Very much yes. Though I actually like hit points, even from a realism perspective - but that's a completely different tangent.

[Deepbluediver]

Some of these are pretty good or just plain logical, and will definitely be adopted. Others are pretty "meh" and a few go into :smalleek: territory.
I'll go through the thoughts I had when reading.


1. Rule of You Can't Freaking Dodge That
This replaces the text of Evasion:

If the character makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. If the attack is an area of effect, the character benefits from the effect of Evasion only if he has a form of cover from the epicenter or is 10 feet or less away from an edge of the area. You must wear light or no armor for Evasion to apply.

Gonna keep this one for sure.



[2. Rule of Dispersion Man
Cloudkill and the other cloud spells can be cast underwater normally, but if cast outside of liquid, can't penetrate liquid as normal.
This was how my group always played anyway, I didn't even realize it was a problem.



5. Rule of What's There to Miss Anyway?
The rule that states spells have a 50% chance to miss incorporeal targets does not apply to mind-affecting spells.
On the one hand, I can understand the idea of something incorporeal being different enough that magic might not function in the same way. On the other, if you are going to keep it then maybe it should be expanded to certain Divination or Illusion effects as well.



6. Rule of Does this REALLY Resemble the Original?
When attempting to counterspell a spell with the casting of the same spell, and the target spell has at least two metamagic feats applied to it, in order to successfuly counterspell, you must apply all but one of the metamagic feats on the target spell to your spell. This changes to all but two with Improved Counterspell. It can still be dispelled normally by features such as Countersong or spells like Dispel Magic or Dispel Magic, Greater.
...what? I realize the counterspell rules could use some tweaking but this may as well be written in Babble-fish translated german. Can you explain it another way?

Edit: After reading other poster's comments and your replies, I think I get it now. Seems like its overly specific though, at least for prepared casters. Maybe just make it so that the countering spell needs to have the same total value of metamagic feats apllied.



8. Rule of It Ain't Endless Y'know
After you cast 5 spells with negligible cost material components using a spell component pouch, the next 5 such spells have only a 50% chance that you have the necessary components at hand (finding out beforehand is a move action). After all those 10 spells, you need to refill your pouch or buy a new one. Refilling takes 4 hours in a metropolis, 12 hours in any other form of urban settlement, and 24 hours elsewhere.

When attempting to refill your pouch in a non-urban settlement, you may make a single Survival check. If the result is above 20, for every point reduce the time it takes to refill by 1 hour, up to a minimum time of 12 hours needed.
This same thing just came up in another thread regarding spell components, and unfortunately your change is complexity for the sake of realism. I would probably blow a feat on Eschew Materials for every character just to avoid the headache of tracking spell-use.
It doesnt' add anything to an already accountant-heavy class.



3. Rule of Hey I Just Got this Tentacle
Polimorphed characters are NOT treated as being proficient with their own natural weapons.
9. Rule of Aviatory School Don't Take 1 Round
Unless you're polimorphed into something that has perfect or clumsy maneouverability in flight, you fly at a one step worse maneouverability than a true member of that race.
Both of these decrease the appeal of polymorphing, which isn't a bad thing overall. But it's the kind of thing I might apply to individual spells, rather than as a blanket rule.
I might allows various ways of circumventing the limitations, too, such as the Natural-Born Flyer feat granting full manuverability. Also, does there exist a Natural Weapon Proficiency feat, or the equivalent? I could not find it.


Anything I didn't comment on I either don't have experience with or wouldn't really change much, IMO.

[Yitzi]

Because pouches have limited space and components A, B, C, D, and E already cover a good bulk of it, limiting the probability that something else is there.

But then even if you didn't pull out components A,B,C,D, and E, there's a chance that those 5 components are in there, and therefore component F might not be, even if component F is the first you try to draw.


As an analogy, let's say you're playing poker and your opponent has 5 cards in his hand, dealt randomly, all things equal. There is a 1-C(48, 5)/C(52, 5) chance that any one of his cards is an ace. Then he discards 3 cards, which you can see are not aces. What is the chance that out of the 2 remaining hands at least one is an ace? 1-C(45, 2)/C(49, 2). Which is smaller.

That analogy doesn't work, because in our case you said that the first 5 are definitely in there, whereas the chance of there being an ace was nowhere near 1 even with 5 cards.

What you're actually getting at would be a rule where only a certain number of randomly selected items are in the pouch...but nobody'd buy a pouch that might not have what they need.

A better approach, if you're concerned that material components for every spell in existence is too much for a single pouch, would be to place some limit (a large limit, because most material components are very small) on the number of components that can be in the pouch...that ends up with bookkeeping, though. Or you can have standard pouches for each set of spells small enough that it can have plenty of all of them (e.g. one pouch for all PHB spells, another for SC spells of each school, etc.)

[Phosphate]

Not completely true. When I said that, I was specifically thinking of undergrowth, which is a physical object (well, a bunch of physical objects) that grants concealment. I could see a rogue diving into the undergrowth for Evasion. Similar situations could apply with other physical objects that grant concealment.

Ooooh. Well makes sense I guess...not sure though.


Then that brings up a second question: Does it take the same amount of time to refill my supply of one ingredient (which would take one shop) as it does to fill up my supply of ten different ingredients (which would take a bunch of shops)?

If you take a bunch of one ingredient...you have a bunch of one ingredient, not a general purpose spell pouch. We're talking basically different things.



Yes. Very much yes. Though I actually like hit points, even from a realism perspective - but that's a completely different tangent.

Haha same. Hit points are completely unrealistic - but I like them.


On the one hand, I can understand the idea of something incorporeal being different enough that magic might not function in the same way. On the other, if you are going to keep it then maybe it should be expanded to certain Divination or Illusion effects as well.

Illusion affects everyone everywhere all the time. That's why it's so damn good :)). So that wouldn't be an issue.

The main reason why I'd allow mind-affecting all the time on incorporeals is the very definition given by RAW: a disembodied conscience. A mind.


Edit: After reading other poster's comments and your replies, I think I get it now. Seems like its overly specific though, at least for prepared casters. Maybe just make it so that the countering spell needs to have the same total value of metamagic feats apllied.

That, to me, seems even more unrealistic than RAW itself.


This same thing just came up in another thread regarding spell components, and unfortunately your change is complexity for the sake of realism. I would probably blow a feat on Eschew Materials for every character just to avoid the headache or tracking spell-use.
It doesnt' add anything to an already accountant-heavy class.

The way I usually homebrew this, and this IS a balance point, but it can also be flavored nicely, is this:

Eschew Materials
Prerequisite: ability to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells

Let the accountant account.


Both of these decrease the appeal of polymorphing, which isn't a bad thing overall. But it's the kind of thing I might apply to individual spells, rather than as a blanket rule.
I might allows various ways of circumventing the limitations, too, such as the Natural-Born Flyer feat granting full manuverability. Also, does there exist a Natural Weapon Proficiency feat, or the equivalent? I could not find it.

As I said, it makes perfect sense to me to circumvent those via feats, so taking Natural-Born Flyer is something I'd find cool and fitting. No, a Natural Weapon Proficiency feat does not exist, but you can become proficient via Exotic Weapon Proficiency. For instance, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Claws).


But then even if you didn't pull out components A,B,C,D, and E, there's a chance that those 5 components are in there, and therefore component F might not be, even if component F is the first you try to draw.

Which is the unrealistic aspect, I know and I'm painfully aware. But it's still better than RAW.


That analogy doesn't work, because in our case you said that the first 5 are definitely in there, whereas the chance of there being an ace was nowhere near 1 even with 5 cards.

^



A better approach, if you're concerned that material components for every spell in existence is too much for a single pouch, would be to place some limit (a large limit, because most material components are very small) on the number of components that can be in the pouch...that ends up with bookkeeping, though. Or you can have standard pouches for each set of spells small enough that it can have plenty of all of them (e.g. one pouch for all PHB spells, another for SC spells of each school, etc.)

Legit.

[Vadskye]

If you take a bunch of one ingredient...you have a bunch of one ingredient, not a general purpose spell pouch. We're talking basically different things.
Not completely, I think. A lot of casters (if only by virtue of their players) tend to cast the same spells over and over again. Why should a blaster sorcerer who keeps casting Fireball and Scorching Ray over and over again have the same difficulty finding spell components as a wizard who uses a different spell for each of his slots?

Put another way, can I just buy a bag of bat guano specifically instead of buying a "general spell component pouch"? That way, I could cast Fireball as much as I want, and then use the general spell component pouch for my other random spells.

[Phosphate]

Put another way, can I just buy a bag of bat guano specifically instead of buying a "general spell component pouch"?

Yes. Yes, you can.

[Zale]

The way I usually homebrew this, and this IS a balance point, but it can also be flavored nicely, is this:

Eschew Materials
Prerequisite: ability to spontaneously cast 2nd level arcane spells

Let the accountant account.



Wow.

You must really hate Wizards. Did they steal your candy when you were younger?

[Phosphate]

No. I routinely play Wizards. Especially PrC'd ones.

[Zale]

And you would put up with additional accounting?

[Phosphate]

Yup. I'm ok with complexity from D&D, it's intended as a complex game and I like it like that.

[Zale]

Have you considered that other people may not appreciate an increased and wholly unneeded level of complexity?

[Phosphate]

Yes. And as DM I'd gladly let them use the spell component pouch as basically an endless arcane focus. It just irks me on an abstract level.

[Vadskye]

Yes. And as DM I'd gladly let them use the spell component pouch as basically an endless arcane focus. It just irks me on an abstract level.
This. I like this. I hope you find a way to make it make sense in a non-annoying way, I really do. I just can't think of one, and I don't think you've found it yet. Alas...

[Yitzi]

Which is the unrealistic aspect, I know and I'm painfully aware. But it's still better than RAW.

I don't see why; it's not like spell components are particularly massive (for the most part.)

[Yawgmoth]

All of these add nothing except pedantic nitpicking and even more accounting that bogs down a game already bogged down to the maximum encumbrance level with fiddly math and rolls. I think you'd much prefer a game like Hackmaster or Skyrealms of Jorune than D&D if you get your jollies from keeping track of a thousand charts and dice rolls to determine dice rolls to determine which chart you roll for your action.

[Lord_Gareth]

All of these add nothing except pedantic nitpicking and even more accounting that bogs down a game already bogged down to the maximum encumbrance level with fiddly math and rolls. I think you'd much prefer a game like Hackmaster or Skyrealms of Jorune than D&D if you get your jollies from keeping track of a thousand charts and dice rolls to determine dice rolls to determine which chart you roll for your action.

This. Very much this. Every day? This. Every night? This. At the break of dawn, this, and as the sun sets, this.

I'd come up with a few more sentences to express how much I agree with this post, but instead I shall make this statement - in the explanation of the villain's motive in, "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream," replace the word 'hate' with Yawgmoth's post and that speech pretty much describes how correct Yawgmoth is.