Beating True Seeing

[The Redwolf]

I was just talking with a friend about a race called the beguiler that's a monster race and admittedly very interesting. One of their main features is that they have constant true seeing, which would make it impossible to use illusions and such against them. This got me wondering, is there a good way to beat true seeing, like anything that suppresses it? We came up with antimagic field, but that seems a little to suspicious to me, and if it isn't a spell but something the creature has then that wouldn't work either is what I thought. You guys here seem to know just about all there is to know, so I figured I would as you all. :smallbiggrin:

[Flickerdart]

Invisible Spell, one of the worst thought out metamagics:

"Those with detect magic, see invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell."

The normal visual manifestation of an illusion is the illusion, so that's what they see.

[The Redwolf]

So it's basically something that any illusionist worth their salt would have then, nice.

[evil-frosty]

A RAW reading of Mind Blank stops True seeing from the creature with True seeing using it to see a invisible and Mind blanked person. Or any illusion the mind blanked person is using on themselves since True Seeing is a divination spell. This is RAW I do not know if it is RAI

[Water_Bear]

AMF blocks Supernatural (Su) abilities and SLAs, so that would absolutely work. But AMFs are a clunky and ham-handed 'solution' even in the best of times.

I would just take advantage of the fact that Trueseeing has an 120ft range. Staying outside of the range while invisible or using magic to alter your appearance is definitely an option, it just requires a little more thought.

Otherwise I would say any spell which blocks Trueseeing (the Fog Cloud series, most Wall spells) or temporarily or permanently blinds the Beguiler (Glitterdust, Blindness/Deafness) would be good. Spells like Sleep which cause unconsciousness or just plain old vanilla blasting will prevent them from using their ability while being long-range enough not to expose you to their sight.

[The Boz]

Invisible Spell, one of the worst thought out metamagics:

"Those with detect magic, see invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell."

The normal visual manifestation of an illusion is the illusion, so that's what they see.

This is actually hilarious.

[The Redwolf]

I wouldn't want to use antimagic fields because it's a little too far in my view and it's instantly suspicious, but I was thinking more about like they go into the sorcerer's castle and he knows they're there so he starts setting up illusions to trick them into traps and wrong directions and stuff, like casting them ahead of the party before they can see them sort of thing. That's not what I'd actually do, since I have the aforementioned friend is a member on here, but that's the principle.

[only1doug]

I think that the standard Beatdown is Invisible spell on Fog Cloud. Anyone without see invis or true seeing can see normally, Those with See Invis or True Seeing can only see fog.

Now Ranged attack away on a target that cannot see you.

[Psyren]

Nondetection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/nondetection.htm) should arguably have a chance at working. Escape Detection (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/escapeDetection.htm) explicitly does. Extended, both should last all day.

[Mithril Leaf]

I know it's not quite what you were looking for, but the Concealing Amorpha powers allow you to ignore True Seeing's prowess since it's miss chance is based on creation.

[Toliudar]

Somewhat limiting, but true seeing explicitly doesn't see through disguises, nor does it see through "solid objects". Therefore, having a mechanical fake of whatever you would normally be creating an illusion of (an animated statue of a balor standing in for the real thing, for example) or a pane of glass between the viewer and the thing to be viewed will both mitigate the advantage of true seeing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

True Seeing targets the caster, and modifies his normal vision, just like a Darkvision spell. The spell has a range of touch, not 120 feet, so there is no magical effect beyond what's on the target receiving its benefits. No divination effect is touching the creature being looked at, so Mind Blank and Nondetection are of no benefit in defending against it. Escape Detection specifies (Psionic) True Seeing as something it blocks, so that should work, but no other blanket divination-blocking will work against True Seeing.

[Menteith]

Vecna-Blooded is a LA1 template which has immunity to "All Divination Spells cast against it or to learn more information about it. Such Divination fails to reveal any information." It's somewhat ambiguous if True Seeing falls into the category of "Divination spell cast to learn more information about the target", but it should work.

[The Redwolf]

The thing I'm really wondering though is that most of the solutions presented work for an individual using illusions on themselves, can you apply those spells to other situations like illusions you make in space but aren't tied to a creature?

[Psyren]

True Seeing targets the caster, and modifies his normal vision, just like a Darkvision spell. The spell has a range of touch, not 120 feet, so there is no magical effect beyond what's on the target receiving its benefits. No divination effect is touching the creature being looked at, so Mind Blank and Nondetection are of no benefit in defending against it. Escape Detection specifies (Psionic) True Seeing as something it blocks, so that should work, but no other blanket divination-blocking will work against True Seeing.

That depends entirely on your definition of "attempted against." If you define it as "cast on," then yes, Nondetection will do nothing. But if you define it as "directed at" or "used against" then it will. Since D&D has no definition of this phrase, it falls to the DM to make the call.

For Escape Detection, there is no "should" about it, assuming default transparency rules are in play.

[Toliudar]

The thing I'm really wondering though is that most of the solutions presented work for an individual using illusions on themselves, can you apply those spells to other situations like illusions you make in space but aren't tied to a creature?

All you have to do is make the 'illusion' something other than an illusion. A fabrication, a papier-mache form, a mechanical device, a guy in a gorilla suit...true seeing helps with none of these.

[Zale]

Does True Seeing function if the subject is blind?

[Psyren]

Vecna-Blooded is a LA1 template which has immunity to "All Divination Spells cast against it or to learn more information about it. Such Divination fails to reveal any information." It's somewhat ambiguous if True Seeing falls into the category of "Divination spell cast to learn more information about the target", but it should work.

The trouble with Vecna-Blooded is there's no way to obtain it by RAW. You need to perform a ritual that immerses yourself in his avatar's blood, but his avatar (per DaD) has no blood - it's a skeleton. A skeleton that is immune to all transmutation effects, might I add. So Vecna fooled the cosmos yet again.

From MMV:


When a deity, its avatar, or its aspect appears on the Material Plane, any blood it sheds retains part of its divine essence. Gathered in sufficient quantities, this blood can be used to bathe as part of a special ritual, creating a god-blooded creature.

You could probably try to get some from Vecna himself (assuming he isn't skeletal in god-form either) but given that there's no way to catch the God of Secrets by surprise, you'll have a pretty rough time of it. Pun-pun could just grant himself the template of course.

[Menteith]

Also, Gnome Illusionist Racial 10th level substitution gives the ability Insidious Illusions, which forces anyone trying to penetrate one of your illusions with a Divination spell (including True Seeing) to make a caster level check against you to discern that they're illusions.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Make them wish they didn't have it.

For example, an illusionary wall. Behind it, Symbol of Insanity. Those with True Seeing get hit by the Symbol. Everyone else is quite safe.

[Lord_Gareth]

The trouble with Vecna-Blooded is there's no way to obtain it by RAW. You need to perform a ritual that immerses yourself in his avatar's blood, but his avatar (per DaD) has no blood - it's a skeleton. A skeleton that is immune to all transmutation effects, might I add. So Vecna fooled the cosmos yet again.

From MMV:



You could probably try to get some from Vecna himself (assuming he isn't skeletal in god-form either) but given that there's no way to catch the God of Secrets by surprise, you'll have a pretty rough time of it. Pun-pun could just grant himself the template of course.

I could've sworn that Vecna-Blooded had a specific ritual in its entry used to replace the general one.

[Menteith]

I could've sworn that Vecna-Blooded had a specific ritual in its entry used to replace the general one.

You unravel the seven riddles of Vecna and are then subjected to a series of bizarre tortures and ordeals in a pocket dimension called the Oubliette of Secrets, and emerge as a Vecna-Blooded creature.

[Ravens_cry]

Invisible Spell, one of the worst thought out metamagics:

"Those with detect magic, see invisibility, or true seeing spells or effects active at the time of the casting will see whatever visual manifestations typically accompany the spell."

The normal visual manifestation of an illusion is the illusion, so that's what they see.
A more in-universe solution, and less RAW abuse, is to use one of the fog spells with invisibile spell as well as invisibility. If they put True Seen up, all they see is the fog.
More action and spell cost and it prevents you from using True Seeing, but it hopefully will prevent having to make a save vs. Flying DM.
No, I did not forget a 'G'.

[Flickerdart]

You could probably try to get some from Vecna himself (assuming he isn't skeletal in god-form either) but given that there's no way to catch the God of Secrets by surprise, you'll have a pretty rough time of it. Pun-pun could just grant himself the template of course.
You could just ask nicely.

[Psyren]

I could've sworn that Vecna-Blooded had a specific ritual in its entry used to replace the general one.

Menteith gave it, but by RAW it doesn't actually replace the standard method (i.e. you can theoretically use either one.) So perhaps I should amend my original post from "impossible by RAW" to "extremely bloody unlikely and with a high chance of being fatal." To impress Vecna that much, you probably need to be smart/powerful/both enough already to not need the dratted thing.


You could just ask nicely.

Wouldn't it be funny if that worked? :smalltongue:

"Over the years, all those astrally-projected archmages and Red Wizards who assaulted my domain and fell by my hands... yet not one ever thought of simply asking me."

[Water_Bear]

The trouble with Vecna-Blooded is there's no way to obtain it by RAW. You need to perform a ritual that immerses yourself in his avatar's blood, but his avatar (per DaD) has no blood - it's a skeleton. A skeleton that is immune to all transmutation effects, might I add. So Vecna fooled the cosmos yet again.

...

You could probably try to get some from Vecna himself (assuming he isn't skeletal in god-form either) but given that there's no way to catch the God of Secrets by surprise, you'll have a pretty rough time of it. Pun-pun could just grant himself the template of course.

Couldn't you Wish for it? It has no listed price, so by RAW Anti-Logic that means it is free, and therefore within the price range for created non-magical items.

[Psyren]

Couldn't you Wish for it? It has no listed price, so by RAW Anti-Logic that means it is free, and therefore within the price range for created non-magical items.

It's not an item though. Can you Wish for templates? I mean, you can Wish for anything, but "without being screwed" is the sticking point.

EDIT: Or did you mean the blood? That depends on whether you can wish for (a) things that don't exist or (b) the possessions of a deity. Skeletons don't have blood and a god's blood (assuming he has any himself) belongs to him.

I would put it on par with wishing for an artifact - those have no price either.

[Lord_Gareth]

It's not an item though. Can you Wish for templates? I mean, you can Wish for anything, but "without being screwed" is the sticking point.

No, no. Not the template.

Wish for the blood

[Menteith]

It's not an item though. Can you Wish for templates? I mean, you can Wish for anything, but "without being screwed" is the sticking point.

Wishing for Vecna's blood, which you can take a bath in for the template.

EDIT
Jinx

[Psyren]

Cease the dogpile, I edited.

[Menteith]

It's not an item though. Can you Wish for templates? I mean, you can Wish for anything, but "without being screwed" is the sticking point.

EDIT: Or did you mean the blood? That depends on whether you can wish for (a) things that don't exist or (b) the possessions of a deity. Skeletons don't have blood and a god's blood (assuming he has any himself) belongs to him.

I would put it on par with wishing for an artifact - those have no price either.

You can, by RAW, wish for a Staff of a Magi (it recommends transporting the caster to the presence of the staff's current owner), but that implies it's possible for Wish to interact with Artifacts. A carefully worded Wish (are there any other kinds?) might be able to get you some of his blood safely.

[Psyren]

You can, by RAW, Wish for anything you want. I know this already.

The problem is doing so safely, and the fact that it does something so dangerous means you're clearly in "undesirable fulfillment or partial fulfillment" territory. Once partial fulfillment is in play you are screwed: "I Wish for Vecna's blood" for instance could slaughter a pig right over your head.

No matter how much legalese you use, partial fulfillment can omit any protective clause you can dream up.

[Menteith]

You can, by RAW, Wish for anything you want. I know this already.

The problem is doing so safely, and the fact that it does something so dangerous means you're clearly in "undesirable fulfillment or partial fulfillment" territory. Once partial fulfillment is in play you are screwed: "I Wish for Vecna's blood" for instance could slaughter a pig right over your head.

No matter how much legalese you use, partial fulfillment can omit any protective clause you can dream up.

I wish for Vecna's Blood :smalleek:

[Ravens_cry]

I wish for Vecna's Blood :smalleek:
With a high enough Diplomacy check and some sweet role playing, Vecna might be . . .disposed to providing a donation.
However, the PC must now undertake a quest at Vecna's behest.

[Water_Bear]

You can, by RAW, Wish for anything you want. I know this already.

The problem is doing so safely, and the fact that it does something so dangerous means you're clearly in "undesirable fulfillment or partial fulfillment" territory. Once partial fulfillment is in play you are screwed: "I Wish for Vecna's blood" for instance could slaughter a pig right over your head.

No matter how much legalese you use, partial fulfillment can omit any protective clause you can dream up.

Oh absolutely; it's completely preposterous to be able to Wish up a transfinite volume of Vecna's blood (0gp cost x [arbitrarily high number] < Wish's gp limit). As a DM I would throw balled up pieces of paper at any player who suggested it, because it's insultingly stupid.

But it is RAW legal, so it is theoretically an option.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

PAO is a solution. Grab pig's blood. PAO it into Vecna's blood. It'll last long enough to complete the ritual.

[Psyren]

Oh absolutely; it's completely preposterous to be able to Wish up a transfinite volume of Vecna's blood (0gp cost x [arbitrarily high number] < Wish's gp limit). As a DM I would throw balled up pieces of paper at any player who suggested it, because it's insultingly stupid.

But it is RAW legal, so it is theoretically an option.

Yep - but in RAW discussions, we generally omit anything that requires DM adjudication, since allowing that means we may as well allow houserules/homebrew and skip RAW entirely.

That includes anything that falls outside of Wish's safe zone.

[Lord_Gareth]

With a high enough Diplomacy check and some sweet role playing, Vecna might be . . .disposed to providing a donation.
However, the PC must now undertake a quest at Vecna's behest.

"So I lent Kas my hand and eye a while back, and he never really got around to returning them. I got so mad that I...well, you see, I'm not proud of this, but I kinda spread around the story that he betrayed me. Evidently he lost the things, so I'd like 'em back now. This lack of depth perception is really screwing with how I get around at home, you know?"

[only1doug]

"So I lent Kas my hand and eye a while back, and he never really got around to returning them. I got so mad that I...well, you see, I'm not proud of this, but I kinda spread around the story that he betrayed me. Evidently he lost the things, so I'd like 'em back now. This lack of depth perception is really screwing with how I get around at home, you know?"

So there's this group of guys who have set up a rumour (http://www.blindpanic.com/humor/vecna.htm) that my head is also available....


I like the rumour, spread it some more and set up a bunch of false heads throughout the realms to encourage anyone stupid enough to fall for it....