How to do a hopeless boss fight?

[Masaioh]

I am currently planning a 3.5 campaign for some friends of mine, which will begin a little over a year from now (the group isn't even finalized), and I've gotten to the point in the plot where one of the villains will be introduced to the group. Said villain is ECL 8, will be accompanied by a CR 7 cohort, and the players will be ECL 3, maybe 4. There are a few different NPCS around that could save them, but it would take a few rounds for them to reach the PCs.

I want to make an encounter that the party cannot win, while ensuring that none of them will die. Many of you have probably seen the same thing in video games. What do you think would be the best way to go about this?

[TheCountAlucard]

Non-lethal damage. :smalltongue:

[Roguenewb]

Have the bad-guys use level-boosted effects (spells, combat manuevers, etc) that disable the party while only doing a little bit of damage or none at all. Glitterdust-trip-bullrush can make the players feel overwhelmed and outclasses without killing them. Frankly, any character avenue that isn't just damage should impress the players without killing them.

[Exediron]

First off, props to you for planning so far in advance. Your group will probably appreciate it in the long run.

The first and most important thing is to make sure that the players realize that they can't win. It may sound obvious, but it's often much clearer from the DM's perspective than it is to the players. They don't have to know right away, but it needs to be clear by the time they need to run that they aren't winning.

The next thing is to have a way out. Either the villain needs to have some reason to let them escape, or something else needs to intervene to allow them to escape. If the villain wants the PCs dead and they start running, he presumably won't let them without some extenuating circumstances. Maybe the villain doesn't have time to chase them before allies would arrive, or maybe the terrain is such that the PCs can block their escape route. Whatever details, there has to be some reason the villain will let them get away.

The only way I can see to make certain that none of the PCs die is for the villain to not actually be trying to kill them. Otherwise, they're likely to keep fighting until they lose at least one member, which is often the first sign characters will take that their party is losing. One possible way around this would be to have the villain break their morale by almost demolishing their strongest member - the message being that it would have killed anyone else instantly.

Another tricky element of the plan hinges on the reaction of the players. If at all possible, the villain should be set up or established as being very dangerous before the fight (even if it's only right before) - the purpose being to avoid the players feeling like they were cheated by an arbitrarily powerful foe. If the players feel that the villain's power is justified, they're both less likely to feel bitter about losing and more likely to run.

The last issue is in making sure the PCs actually do lose. Players can surprise you, and if it's vital to your plan that the villain lives (or simply that the characters lose) you need to have a contingency plan in case the characters start to win. It's much easier to control all the variables in a video game than it is in face-to-face D&D. If the villain simply needs to live, a classic solution is for him to produce some magic and escape - at 3rd level, the characters probably don't have any means of following.

I'm soon to be in a similar (actually even more delicate) situation in my own campaign: Don't click the spoiler if you're in my campaign

The party will be guarding a pair of NPCs as they manipulate an ancient artifact to start the end times (but in a good way). Agents of the primary antagonists will show up as the ritual stats, and the characters will need to hold them off. There are four things that need to be achieved here, and two of them are of absolutely vital importance to the plot.


The ritual needs to reach the stage of having set events in motion.
The NPCs must be disturbed in the ritual and unable to finish, thus setting up the unexpected twist.
The party must lose the fight to allow Number 2 to happen, but they must live to escape - at this point, it's way too late to re-start with a new party.
The sub-villain leading the attack must die. I need to not have any antagonists with actual knowledge of what went wrong with the ritual.


Characters can, and almost certainly will, die during the fight, but it will still be a pretty tight run business.

[Godskook]

1.Don't

2.If you must, do it quickly

3.The best way is to let the villain kill them. Otherwise, they won't respect his desire to kill them in the future. Then, once he leaves, use Revenance+Revivify to bring them back without the level loss, and then have the NPC who was generous enough to do so become their new mentor via the old "You owe me" routine.

4.Alternatively, have some Lady of Pain like figure curtailing the villain's actions in the town, forcing him to 'merely' maim the heroes.

[Masaioh]

First off, props to you for planning so far in advance. Your group will probably appreciate it in the long run.

The first and most important thing is to make sure that the players realize that they can't win. It may sound obvious, but it's often much clearer from the DM's perspective than it is to the players. They don't have to know right away, but it needs to be clear by the time they need to run that they aren't winning.

The next thing is to have a way out. Either the villain needs to have some reason to let them escape, or something else needs to intervene to allow them to escape. If the villain wants the PCs dead and they start running, he presumably won't let them without some extenuating circumstances. Maybe the villain doesn't have time to chase them before allies would arrive, or maybe the terrain is such that the PCs can block their escape route. Whatever details, there has to be some reason the villain will let them get away.

The only way I can see to make certain that none of the PCs die is for the villain to not actually be trying to kill them. Otherwise, they're likely to keep fighting until they lose at least one member, which is often the first sign characters will take that their party is losing. One possible way around this would be to have the villain break their morale by almost demolishing their strongest member - the message being that it would have killed anyone else instantly.

Another tricky element of the plan hinges on the reaction of the players. If at all possible, the villain should be set up or established as being very dangerous before the fight (even if it's only right before) - the purpose being to avoid the players feeling like they were cheated by an arbitrarily powerful foe. If the players feel that the villain's power is justified, they're both less likely to feel bitter about losing and more likely to run.

The last issue is in making sure the PCs actually do lose. Players can surprise you, and if it's vital to your plan that the villain lives (or simply that the characters lose) you need to have a contingency plan in case the characters start to win. It's much easier to control all the variables in a video game than it is in face-to-face D&D. If the villain simply needs to live, a classic solution is for him to produce some magic and escape - at 3rd level, the characters probably don't have any means of following.

I'm soon to be in a similar (actually even more delicate) situation in my own campaign: Don't click the spoiler if you're in my campaign

The party will be guarding a pair of NPCs as they manipulate an ancient artifact to start the end times (but in a good way). Agents of the primary antagonists will show up as the ritual stats, and the characters will need to hold them off. There are four things that need to be achieved here, and two of them are of absolutely vital importance to the plot.


The ritual needs to reach the stage of having set events in motion.
The NPCs must be disturbed in the ritual and unable to finish, thus setting up the unexpected twist.
The party must lose the fight to allow Number 2 to happen, but they must live to escape - at this point, it's way too late to re-start with a new party.
The sub-villain leading the attack must die. I need to not have any antagonists with actual knowledge of what went wrong with the ritual.


Characters can, and almost certainly will, die during the fight, but it will still be a pretty tight run business.

Here's the situation: The villain is an aboleth-enslaved lizardfolk with class levels riding an umber hulk, which randomly comes out of the ground after the players win a level-appropriate encounter. They will be accompanied by the local magistrate (6th level human rogue) and the captain of the guard (dwarf werecrocodile). A group of jann mercenaries led by a juvenile blue dragon disguised as a noble djinni is helping them defend a refugee camp from lizardfolk slavers.

I think the party will realize that they can't win, because they like to metagame. One member of the group is also planning a 1-30 campaign atm, which will be run alongside mine for the same group.

[CET]

I want to make an encounter that the party cannot win, while ensuring that none of them will die.

IMO, if handled clumsily, this can be very aggravating for your players (I've seen campaigns wither and die from similar GM intent). So - what do you want out of the encounter?

Depending on your overall goal for the encounter, there are probably other ways to accomplish them that are less likely to frustrate your players.

If it's just to demonstrate to the PCs that the villain is a badass, perhaps he could kill a powerful protector or ally of the PCs? Or perhaps the villain needs to get somewhere and time is more important than killing the PCs - he unloads a couple of very damaging attacks and flees. The thing I think you want to avoid is to have the PCs think of it as a 'boss fight.' If they do, they may assume that it is beatable (and many players will assume that it has been balanced). They may also feel like you railroaded them into a death trap, which is not good for group morale . . .

[Feralventas]

Debuffs. Nothing makes it more obvious that you aren't going to succeed than a significant penalty to everything you do.

Fear-effects. Shaken, Frightened, and all those stacking effects for more penalties to hit and checks while gradually making them huddle in a corner.

Non-lethal damage has been covered.

There's already an aboleth aspect to this, maybe have one of the party members turn on their allies mid-way through the fight to ensure failure.

[rweird]

Deeper Slumber or the like, some sort of SoL that will take out much of the party without killing them. Then maybe have them be captured. If you want them to run away, use a fear effect.

Make sure the caster can pass the needed concentration checks when the PCs focus fire on him/her.

WARNING: PCs involved may be angry and resentful. If it doesn't seem like it is done fairly (DM fiat), they will feel more resentful.

[Ziegander]

Here's the situation: The villain is an aboleth-enslaved lizardfolk with class levels riding an umber hulk, which randomly comes out of the ground after the players win a level-appropriate encounter. They will be accompanied by the local magistrate (6th level human rogue) and the captain of the guard (dwarf werecrocodile). A group of jann mercenaries led by a juvenile blue dragon disguised as a noble djinni is helping them defend a refugee camp from lizardfolk slavers.

I think the party will realize that they can't win, because they like to metagame. One member of the group is also planning a 1-30 campaign atm, which will be run alongside mine for the same group.

It sounds to me like the party could easily win that scenario. Look at those numbers. Four 3rd level PCs, a 6th level human Rogue, a dwarf werecrocodile captain of the guard (level unspecified but he's probably tough), and allies of (if not necessarily immediately accompanied by) jann mercenaries and a juvenile blue dragon. The enemy forces are a single Umber Hulk and a single 8th level Lizardfolk. In terms of action economy, the villain is screwed. If the PCs hang back and assist the Rogue and the captain of the guard, they should be able to defeat the badguy without a lot of trouble, and handily do so if they have the help of jann mercenaries.

What are you hoping to achieve by using this "random" hopeless boss fight against what appears to be an overpowered mook?

[Istari]

Have the villain target the highest save of the entire group if there isn't a good chance that the player will succeed then the rest of the group will probably freak out when the cleric fails a will save. Not guaranteed because of randomness of rolls, but has a good chance to work. Easier if you actually tell them what they need to roll to save.

[NichG]

I guess my question here is, what is the BBEG's purpose in this attack? That makes a lot of difference in how it should proceed.

-Does he know about the PCs at all, or is this a random act of violence?

-Does he want to kill them? Warn them (and why just warn them if he could kill them)?

-Does he want something they have? (in which case he could just sleight of hand it or whatever and flee, never even dealing damage to PCs - the hopeless part would be based on making him have ridiculous defenses)

-Does he want to kill someone they're guarding? (the answer then would be simple, to attack his target instead of the PCs)

-Is it because the PCs will start the aggression (sort of a 'hey guys, I've got an umber hulk!' 'he must be a villain! Kill!' scenario)? If so, what happens if they don't?

[Ravens_cry]

Don't.
Really, there is just so many potential pitfalls that it's probably best to avoid this trope until your a better DM.
You have to explain why he doesn't just kill them. If it is prevented by a Great Good or other powerful forces in the setting, you need to explain why they don't just take the Big Bad out. Arrogance has sadly become rather a cliché. Only so many villains can underestimate the party and decide not to kill them when they had the chance before it becomes tiresome and trite.
And sometimes, thanks to lucky rolls on the players parts and/or unlucky rolls on yours, or because you as the DM underestimated the players optimization skills, your hopeless boss battle isn't so hopeless and the PC actually win.
Yeah, this is good fun for the PC, but what do you do now?
It was a robot/clone/simulacrum often feel like cheating.
And let's say you do 'cheat', giving the Boss ∞ across the board. Well, unless you are very careful, the players will likely feel cheated and ejected from their suspension of disbelief.
Knowing that nothing they could have done would have made a difference feels like, and is, railroading of the highest order.
You can disguise the tracks, but the train is still there.

[Masaioh]

It sounds to me like the party could easily win that scenario. Look at those numbers. Four 3rd level PCs, a 6th level human Rogue, a dwarf werecrocodile captain of the guard (level unspecified but he's probably tough), and allies of (if not necessarily immediately accompanied by) jann mercenaries and a juvenile blue dragon. The enemy forces are a single Umber Hulk and a single 8th level Lizardfolk. In terms of action economy, the villain is screwed. If the PCs hang back and assist the Rogue and the captain of the guard, they should be able to defeat the badguy without a lot of trouble, and handily do so if they have the help of jann mercenaries.

What are you hoping to achieve by using this "random" hopeless boss fight against what appears to be an overpowered mook?

I don't remember saying that there were going to be 4 PCs. As it stands, unless we find more players, there will only be 2. The dwarf has no class levels (Sorry, but I thought that not mentioning class levels made it obvious that he didn't have any). All of the jann are occupied with the lizardfolk's allies, which is why this encounter is happening in the first place. Said lizardfolk is a caster.

Also, why was the thread moved? I put it in the 'roleplaying games' section because the question itself was not 3.5-specific, only my situation was.


-Does he want to kill them? Warn them (and why just warn them if he could kill them)?
The villains are looking for slaves, so they want as few casualties as possible.

[molten_dragon]

I want to make an encounter that the party cannot win, while ensuring that none of them will die. Many of you have probably seen the same thing in video games. What do you think would be the best way to go about this?

Don't.

Seriously, don't. No-win encounters are not fun.

[NichG]

Attacking large groups in a game where combat at low levels is pretty lethal isn't a really good way of getting slaves though. It'd be better to divide and conquer. To that end I'd suggest having the BBEG make use of his ability to tunnel through earth to split up the party with a rockslide and then pull isolated people underground and deal with them one on one.

That said, this particular scenario has four categories of outcomes:

1. PCs kill the BBEG. This is ostensibly what you're trying to avoid.
2. PCs fail to kill the BBEG, but escape successfully.
3. PCs fail to kill the BBEG and some but not all of the PCs escape.
4. PCs fail to kill the BBEG and are all captured.

If you just want to avoid 1, that isn't so hard. If you want 4 to be the only outcome, its significantly more difficult and feels a lot more forced to the players if you have to nudge things to make it happen. 3 isn't terribly unlikely.

My suggestion would be to bribe the players to go along with what you have planned. Say OOC: "This is intended to be a capture scenario. If you go along with it, you'll gain an action point/fate point/whatever you can use later. Otherwise you can resist if you like and we'll see where the game goes." It may not be the most immersive thing to do, but it'll ease tensions and help prevent things you're relying on from getting broken due to a miscalculation.

Actually, that makes me think that an indicator system for types of fights in a regimented campaign might be a good idea. Basically it'd be an OOC visual indication of what fight outcomes are 'acceptable' (in the sense that they don't end the campaign in a TPK or plot destruction). The green flag means this fight can be lost without it being a TPK. The red flag means this fight could screw plot up if the party wins. The yellow flag means that escape is an option. I'd only recommend this for campaigns that are very pre-planned, where the DM either cannot or is uncomfortable with improvising. It can be much more interesting for the party to break expectations and just go that way otherwise.

[Masaioh]

Wall of text

Well, I wasn't dead-set on having the players get captured, but that is a possibility. Perhaps I'll have them rescued if they can survive a certain number of rounds without all of them getting knocked unconscious. That OOC thing would probably make my group get up and leave. As for the rock slide idea, this takes place in a desert, lol.

[Water_Bear]

I guess I'm in the minority, because I think these kinds of fights can be done well, but need a lot of work.

In terms of RP, you need to have a good reason why the BBEG is reluctant to kill them. Ideally a political reason; like the PCs work for someone they can't afford to piss off, but the BBEG is politically powerful enough that their accusations of assault won't be credible.

Put the PCs in a position where victory, for either side, doesn't involve killing the other side. Like the PCs are guarding something or someone, so the BBEG swoops in to incapacitate them and steal it. Or, for more proactive PCs, have them do a dungeon-crawl to find some MacGuffin and wind up fighting the villains who want to pull a Belloq.

Most importantly, the PCs should be able to pull out some kind of a win. Even if that just means destroying whatever the BBEG is after before they can get it. Without that possibility of eking out even a minor victory, the players will feel like they're being jerked around. Obviously this also means they need to trust you not to abuse your position as the DM.

Mechanically, the best way to do it is with Save or Lose effects like Fear or Suggestion. That way, the PCs can be definitively beaten with little chance of their dying. Otherwise, a strong defense can substitute for a powerful offense; a nigh-invulnerable villain who ignores your entire party and shrugs off their strongest attacks is scarier than any monster.

[Khatoblepas]

So you want to do a hopeless boss fight? Plan for every outcome. Do not force one.

So the lizardfolk is in league with the aboleths? Plan illusions. If the party defeat a tough battle, have the people they killed actually be shadows of the BBEG. The party still eeks out a win - defeating these creatures costs the BBEG a lot of resources and energy to create, and they're down some powerful mooks.

Again, focusing on the aboleths? Have the BBEG be a pushover. Sure, the lizardfolk himself escapes, and his cohorts are cowards who stay behind. But their minions? It just so happens that their swords are poisoned with rare and deadly Aboleth Mucus. Or there are traps that release the mucus into the air. Only the lizardfolk uses it because of his ties with his Aboleth master. Now the party must contend with drowning in a desert, trying to defeat the BBEG and die, or get to safety (a convenient oasis a mere minute away from the fight scene - time enough for the players to sprint away to save their hides). This option kicks it up a notch since you're revealing that there's a power beyond the lizardfolk dude on an umber hulk. He's not even the real power. He's just a vector to do the aboleth's job.

So the party runs away to the oasis, licking their wounds until their gills retract and they can breathe air again. If they continue to suffer in order to stop the BBEG, let them. Let them beat this lizardfolk dude and pass out afterward, only to be revived just in time by your saviour NPCs. The important thing is to give the player's agency, and use the fact that the odds are against them as a ticking clock. Just make sure your villain has planned for the defeat of his highest ranking dude. Be it that the dude is fighting with illusions and misdirection, the aboleth cheats and gives his commander in chief something to make sure the PCs don't win, or he just fights unfairly.

The key is that the enemies don't have to fight fair in order to steamroll the player characters. You, however, do. Whatever you use, make sure it makes sense in character. I focus on the aboleth stuff because it seems like the most obvious route to insta-winning against a low level party. You don't have to overwhelm the players with force.

You overwhelm them with strategy.

[CTrees]

The scenario I could see where this could work and not feel forced is the PCs just happening to be in the way of the BBEG as he's trying to get somewhere. For a random example, say the BBEG just assassinated someone the party were on their way to meet. He's fought his way through a bunch of guards (and the target), accomplished his goal, and now just wants to go back to his lair. The PCs appear, to him, to yet more mooks-not worth special attention. He has no interest in killing them, as they are beneath him, and wasting resources/time/more powerful spells makes little sense - if a fly is pestering you, you wave it away absentmindedly, rather than breaking out the flamethrower. Thus, trip/bullrush/disarm, or sleep/fear/charm effects, or black tentacles/walls/force cage, etc., incapacitating everyone for long enough for the BBEG to simply get on his horse and ride away. This approach is helped even more by the BBEG not having any idea who the party is, once the PCs level up and confront him again. Again, they were beneath his notice and not worth remembering.

PC: My father saved his village at the cost of his own life. You had him shot as you ran away! A hero at a thousand paces.
BBEG: I'm sorry. I don't remember any of it.
PC: You don't remember?!
BBEG: For you, the day I graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me... it was Tuesday.

[yougi]

The dwarf has no class levels (Sorry, but I thought that not mentioning class levels made it obvious that he didn't have any).

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, dwarves MUST have at least one level in any class, even an NPC class, given that they have no racial HD. Without a class, they have 0HD, therefore 0HP, and are automatically dying.


The villains are looking for slaves, so they want as few casualties as possible.

This brings back the classic AD&D Slave Lords modules to mind. We had this fight which we were not supposed to win: we were 4 6th level PCs (mage-drid-fighter-fighter) against 5 8-11th level NPCs (fighter-monk-cleric-mage-assassin). We were supposed to lose and be stuck in a dungeon. However, we DID kill them, and rather easily at that, simply through clever use of magical items. The DM then made it so that their allies (which actually did exist) came for us and stuck us in their dungeon. When I learned that we were supposed to lose that fight, I almost lost it. While I can appreciate such situations in a book or a movie, as a player they are very, very frustrating, and that's coming from someone who won it despite all odds (I must admit, it felt incredibly epic to win, but knowing we were not supposed to... GRRRRR).


The scenario I could see where this could work and not feel forced is the PCs just happening to be in the way of the BBEG as he's trying to get somewhere.

That.

One thing I did, and I received good feedback on it from my players, was to make the BBEG (a cleric) get through the PCs village on his way back from murdering Pelor's High Priest, and to have the village's militia try to stop him. He said something like "after that fight with the High Priest, I'm all out of high-level spells". He then summoned 5 fiendish monstrous scorpions (through summon monster 4), killed three militia men in one round, and flew away. When the party realised they had their hands full surviving one of his summon monster spells, with the help of an entire village, a spell which he called low-level magic, they knew he was out of their league. When the party's cleric counted how many rounds it took before the last one poofed out, the impression was made.

[Masaioh]

The dwarf is based on the MM dwarf, so I guess he's a warrior. I'm used to saying "no class levels" when I use default creatures from the MM.

[Wise Green Bean]

Also keep in mind, just because the enemy has 5-6 CR on the PCs doesn't mean they can't take one out with cleverness or luck. For example. Friendly neighborhood cleric gives the barbarian truestrike, barb converts into power attack and rolls well, and wham, your baddy just got hit with 80 damage. That can very easily be fatal at that level. Or they manage to drop the ceiling on the baddies. I believe that comes out to a good fistful of d6s, pinned and taking more damage every turn. If you want this villain to come back later, take no risks.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wait a minute...

Your player character is a Dwarf Warrior 1 or Dwarf Warrior 2??

[Masaioh]

Also keep in mind, just because the enemy has 5-6 CR on the PCs doesn't mean they can't take one out with cleverness or luck. For example. Friendly neighborhood cleric gives the barbarian truestrike, barb converts into power attack and rolls well, and wham, your baddy just got hit with 80 damage. That can very easily be fatal at that level. Or they manage to drop the ceiling on the baddies. I believe that comes out to a good fistful of d6s, pinned and taking more damage every turn. If you want this villain to come back later, take no risks.

Well, there isn't a ceiling because the encounter is taking place outside...unless there's a way for a 3rd-level artificer to make the sky fall down.


Wait a minute...

Your player character is a Dwarf Warrior 1 or Dwarf Warrior 2??
Please read my earlier posts...

[Urpriest]

Somewhat of a nitpick: the ECL of the villain is irrelevant, and cohort isn't really the right term since you don't need to use Leadership to get an NPC an ally.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How do you do a hopeless boss fight? Simple... don't.

It's a hackneyed and clichéd plot device which is completely unnecessary.

For every thread I see about 'how to set up a boss fight that the PC's aren't supposed to win', I see a dozen that says 'ZOMG, the GM set up this impossible fight, how are we supposed to win this?'.

In short, skip the table drama. There are other ways of showing how badass a boss is without having him curb-stomp the PC's.

[danzibr]

If you're doing it with the forum roller then just show some major bonuses to attack and damage. Hopefully they'll realize they're way outclassed.

[nedz]

As others have said this is a high risk encounter.

The obvious risks are

PCs kill the BBEG
TPK
Deus Ex Machina

All of these are bad.

You can probably pull this off, but not in the way you described.

But what are your objectives ?

I mean you could have the BBEG monologue and leave, but what would that demonstrate ?

You could have the BBEG be busy doing something else, only leaving him time to delay them with a web spell or similar, but this just frustrates the players.

To actually introduce the BBEG you need to make the encounter non-combat.

Maybe:

they need to seek him out for some information/MacGuffin ?
its a casual encounter in a social setting ?
they meet him in a sacred place where combat is not allowed ?

But they don't actually need to meet the guy for him to be introduced into the game:

Maybe:


they just hear rumours about him ?
they acquire some intel about him from a third party ?
they just defeat one of his minions and question them ?

[Venusaur]

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, dwarves MUST have at least one level in any class, even an NPC class, given that they have no racial HD. Without a class, they have 0HD, therefore 0HP, and are automatically dying.

The dwarf has 3 animal HD from were-crocodile.

[Masaioh]

As others have said this is a high risk encounter.

The obvious risks are

PCs kill the BBEG
TPK
Deus Ex Machina

All of these are bad.

You can probably pull this off, but not in the way you described.

But what are your objectives ?

I mean you could have the BBEG monologue and leave, but what would that demonstrate ?

You could have the BBEG be busy doing something else, only leaving him time to delay them with a web spell or similar, but this just frustrates the players.

To actually introduce the BBEG you need to make the encounter non-combat.

Maybe:

they need to seek him out for some information/MacGuffin ?
its a casual encounter in a social setting ?
they meet him in a sacred place where combat is not allowed ?

But they don't actually need to meet the guy for him to be introduced into the game:

Maybe:


they just hear rumours about him ?
they acquire some intel about him from a third party ?
they just defeat one of his minions and question them ?


Said character is not the final villain for the campaign. As of now, I am considering having the fight end after one of the following:

-a certain number of rounds have passed
-the PCs are knocked unconscious
-as Khatoblepas suggested, have his weapon coated in aboleth mucus/slime and end the encounter when all PCs are afflicted

Alternatively, I could have him reveal a glyph of the deep (LoM, fills their lungs with water) on some part of his body.

[Dread Angel]

I have something similar going on right at the beginning of my campaign (which starts Sunday). The PCs are hired to fetch a sword from a cave.

They happen to get there just as the soon-to-be-BBEG gets his hands on it. They're 1st level, he's 13th, and the sword in question is a powerful intelligent item (and the actual, central villain in the campaign). He decides to wallop the PCs around a bit, but leaves them alive to "spread the word that the darkness is coming."

He then teleports out, and leaves them to explain it to their employer. I intend to have him use combat maneuvers and a couple non-lethal spells...he's just getting a feel for the sword's power.

[CET]

That OOC thing would probably make my group get up and leave.

2 things:

1) If telling the players OOC that the fight is unwinnable would make them leave the table, I can't imagine that making the fight unwinnable through GM fiat and not telling them will work out much better.

2) What is the purpose of this encounter? I cannot imagine that the no-win boss fight is the best way to accomplish your goal, unless your goal is to piss off your players.

[Masaioh]

2 things:

1) If telling the players OOC that the fight is unwinnable would make them leave the table, I can't imagine that making the fight unwinnable through GM fiat and not telling them will work out much better.

2) What is the purpose of this encounter? I cannot imagine that the no-win boss fight is the best way to accomplish your goal, unless your goal is to piss off your players.

I meant that going OOC to bribe my players to play a certain way and say "this is where the plot is supposed to go" would completely kill their suspension of disbelief and it's pretty much railroading.

Besides, our other DM does stuff like this all the time.

[CET]

I meant that going OOC to bribe my players to play a certain way and say "this is where the plot is supposed to go" would completely kill their suspension of disbelief and it's pretty much railroading.

Besides, our other DM does stuff like this all the time.

I don't know that it is any less railroading for telling them about the fiat. But I suppose your mileage may vary . . .

[SSGoW]

As many video games haved taught me... There should never be an unwinnable fight (annoying).

Now if you put your PC's in a fight where the goal isn't to defeat the BBEG but to do something else (delay his advancement, stop him from killing someone, or even find out how he fights so when you meet again you have his tactics).

Also directly give the PC's the order for what they need to do.... Or else they will try to kill the BBEG -_-.

Having fights that ypu can't win is more like the DM flexing his muscles... And the PC's are just there to listen to how awesome said BBEG/DM is.