Benefits to nonlethal damage?

[Yorae]

A player in an upcoming campaign has a character that is, for RP reasons, pretty averse to causing lethal damage. This got me to wondering - are there any interesting mechanical advantages that can be obtained via dealing only nonlethal damage?

I was considering recommending Merciful Spell and perhaps Vow of Nonviolence for a nice DC boost. Not sure about Vow of Peace, though, as it looks like it might be too inconveniencing to the rest of the party. Opinions?

[Kelb_Panthera]

There are no inherent benefits to using non-lethal damage. There are inherent draw-backs, though. If he's going vow of non-violence then BoED's in play. There's a feat in there that lets you do non-lethal with weapon attacks, and another for non-lethal sneak attacks.

In the end, non-lethal is used as a plot-device. There are ways around the mechanical limitations, other than creatures having immunity, but otherwise there's absolutley no advantage to using non-lethal, outside of not wanting to litter the streets with corpeses.


....... who doesn't want to litter the street with corpses?:smallconfused:

[Telonius]

For a more evil tack, you typically get more ransom for a prisoner than for a corpse.

[grarrrg]

A player in an upcoming campaign has a character that is, for RP reasons, pretty averse to causing lethal damage. This got me to wondering - are there any interesting mechanical advantages that can be obtained via dealing only nonlethal damage?

Inherrent? Not really.
Obtained? Yes. Mostly in the form of Damage (ironically enough).

The Merciful Weapon enchant deals an extra 1d6 on every hit, but ALL damage is Nonlethal (cost equivalent: +1. Nonlethal can be 'turned off', but you lose the bonus damage).

There are also some nice ways in Pathfinder to get Nonlethal boosts.
One of the Cavalier orders gets +2 damage on Nonlethal.
For those with Sneak Attack the Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) feat adds +2 damage per Sneak die, and the Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) feat doubles your Sneak damage (including the +2 from Sap Adept).

[manyslayer]

I had some villains that used merciful weapons. One, used merciful shurikens for the bonus damage and to capture PCs (they were slavers and you don't get much for a dead slave).

The leader used a merciful dagger to torture PCs. I said it doesn't do real damage. No where does it say it doesn't hurt like real damage:xykon:

[NichG]

Its not true that there's no advantage. I can think of a few cases where nonlethal damage is incredibly useful, and others where its just a little better than lethal:

- With nonlethal damage you can do things that'd drop or injure your party members too (like AoEs to finish off a bad guy who would kill the tank next round) and then just heal back the ones you want alive.

- As above, but now with the PCs protected by something that gives immunity to nonlethal damage. Essentially the 'no friendly fire' trick.

- As above, but use this to exploit End to Strife and make all your enemies take 20d6 damage per attack in their attack sequence. (High level only).

- With nonlethal damage you can short-circuit some spell defenses. For instance, Death Pact gives someone an instant True Resurrection if they're killed, basically doubling their HP. If on the other hand you knock them out, it doesn't go off. Similarly with abilities like Death Throes that do things on death.

- Keeping enemies alive allows for interrogation, ransom, etc.

- Merciful weapon enchantment. +1d6 damage, but its non-elemental. There are better enchantments, but its a case where nonlethal is a bit better.

- A reason to be damaged by nonlethal: By always having some amount of nonlethal damage, you insulate yourself from being killed. Effectively you're sacrificing from your Max HP in order to expand your unconscious range. Enemies usually won't waste extra attacks in sequence to go after someone who falls down, so you can use this as a (cowardly) survival tactic.

[Wonton]

There are also some nice ways in Pathfinder to get Nonlethal boosts.
One of the Cavalier orders gets +2 damage on Nonlethal.
For those with Sneak Attack the Sap Adept (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-adept-combat) feat adds +2 damage per Sneak die, and the Sap Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/sap-master-combat) feat doubles your Sneak damage (including the +2 from Sap Adept).

Keep in mind though that Sap Master specifically states "Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage to a flat-footed opponent". This is intentionally different from the wording of Sap Adept, which just says "Whenever you use a bludgeoning weapon to deal nonlethal sneak attack damage". So, although it's still very good, you're not going to be turning every sneak attack from a flank from 3d6 into 6d6+12 just from those 2 feats. Although, even Sap Adept (which nets a 57% increase in damage) is pretty damn good.

[Ravens_cry]

Dropping someone to unconscious is not terribly different from killing them from a tactical perspective. Both ways they are out of the fight, and if you wish to kill them, a coup de grace will make quick work of them.
That save is brutal, especially with sneak attack.

[Medic!]

Be super careful with Vow of Non-violence/Vow of Peace...every single player at the table needs to be on-board with the concept and understand the ramifications to insert a character with those feats into a game, as it affects everyone.

[Ravens_cry]

Be super careful with Vow of Non-violence/Vow of Peace...every single player at the table needs to be on-board with the concept and understand the ramifications to insert a character with those feats into a game, as it affects everyone.
Agreed. When you play something that so greatly changes the dynamic of the game, it's always best to make sure the other players are aware and OK with it.

[Yorae]

More specifically, what about Vow of Nonviolence? Worth it? Any complications that could arise that could spell trouble?

Granted, the character is likely to adhere to at least a lose version of this code anyway.

[Roguenewb]

There is a huuuuuge downside to nonlethal damage: a ton of stuff is immune to it. You think fire immunity is common? Go take a look at nonlethal immunity. It's IIRC, about tied for the single most common immunity, with mind affecting.

[Tvtyrant]

The biggest benefit that I know of is that you get lots and lots of pets from it. Dominating something is a lot easier when you have it chained down and try over and over until it works, Mind Rape for things you want to keep forever. Once you have it under control you can quintessence it and poke-summon it to fight when you need it.

You can also sell things for loads of cash, or make new pets by crossbreeding things with your captured dragon.

But from a good perspective, I suppose there is the moral benefit of not killing something you could take alive.

[Igneel]

I once had a player that went around with a Merciful Goliath Hammer, largely preferring to deal lethal damage to mooks and capture the leaders for interrogation purposes. Of course it never helped that I tended to use innocent bystanders being mind-controlled to attack them, and all he would do is knock them out and proceed to attack the mind-controller.

Course means nothing once they ran into things immune to it, but then those things generally aren't targets one wants to take hostage.

[Slipperychicken]

Nonlethal means you get information after the fight (if your DM is good enough that useful info exists). And prisoner exchanges, and possibly ransom if you have time to blow ("is there anyone who would pay for your sorry *** alive?").

If you have mind-control powers, you get minions, too. Ask them if they have anyone special at home, anyone who would miss them, anyone they would leave widowed or orphaned. Ask them politely: if they will serve you for a year and a day (intentionally fail saves against Dominate), they will be free men at the end of it, free to return to their wives and families. If they refuse, they become the Barbarian's new practice dummy. A chance at life, or certain death?

Sure, a Dispel could free your minions, but in the meantime, you've got some good 'ol fashioned slave labor! Killing things and hauling hoards probably isn't against their nature (they were trying to kill you, after all), so you're fine on that front.