Shadowcaster bump

[prufock]

I'm aware of the unofficial fixes for the Shadowcaster. My big problem with the class, however, is that it just doesn't get ENOUGH mysteries. How would it affect the tier/power of the class to give it 2 mysteries at each level, each usable once per day (increasing to 2 and 3 as normal)? After all, of 69 mysteries to choose from, you only get 20 as is. You would need 4 mysteries of a lower-level to select mysteries of a higher level. Bonus feats would be adjusted as well.

I can't imagine it would be overpowering or anything, more like playing catch-up, but would this be too much?

[Yora]

You mean twice as many known mysteries than normal?

That would seem okay to me. The problem with shadowcasters is not what they can do, but that they run out of power so damn fast. In a single fight, they can still only case one mystery per round, so the first two encounters per day wouldn't be any different than usually. It's just that they also will participate in the third, fourth, and fifth in a meaningful way.
And compared to wizards, druids, clerics, sorcerers, and psions, they are still far behind. Tier 3 at the most, I would assume.

[LanSlyde]

Just our way of doing things, but with the spell point system from unearthed arcana. We translated mysteries per day over to the spell point system following the lines of how as the shadow-caster becomes more adept at casting mysteries they become more natural and easier to cast we based our fix off that.

Basically instead of the normal use of the spell point system we based mystery cost off of the tiers. Mystery spells from the different tiers would cost the same regardless of level, so long as it was from the same tier.

Example, take the Dark Terrain path of Apprentice mysteries:

Spells include Carpet of Shadow(lvl1), Black Fire (lvl2), and Clinging Darkness (lvl3). Using the spell point system, each mystery would normally cost 1,3, and 5 spell points respectively. However because shadowcasters uses tiers instead of levels we changed a few things in that regard.

Each mystery level within the different tiers would cost whatever the middle ground would be. So for Dark Terrain: Carpet of Shadow, Black Fire, and Clinging Darkness would all cost 3 spell points. Initiate mysteries like Warp Spell, Echo Spell, and Flood of Shadow would each cost 9 points. Master mysteries would each cost 15.

Now following in line how mysteries become easier to cast as the shadowcaster advances, we came up with a mechanic to emulate this. When Apprentice mysteries become spell-like, reduce the point cost by 1, and reduce it by 1 again when they become supernatural. So a level 20 shadowcaster would have tiers cost 1 point, 7 points, and 15 points respectively.

Now, because shadowcasters base their DC off Charisma, we decided they would have a spell point progression of Sorcerers. That said, because they derive their maximum mystery levels from intelligence we based their bonus spell points off Intelligence.

As a side note: We also use Ari Marmell's unofficial fix.

Our system probably isn't perfect, but its ours. That said, if anyone has any thoughts on how to improve the balance we are open to suggestions.:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Now, because shadowcasters base their DC off Charisma, we decided they would have a spell point progression of Sorcerers. That said, because they derive their maximum mystery levels from intelligence we based their bonus spell points off Intelligence.

As a side note: We also use Ari Marmell's unofficial fix.

If you're really using Ari's fix you have some tweaking to do. The final version of Ari's fix does the following:

- Mystery DCs based on Cha
- Bonus mysteries based on Cha
- Highest mystery known based on Int

This means that the Shadowcaster would care most about Cha, and all their stat boosts would go there; 19 Int would let them learn any mystery in the game, and more than that wouldn't do anything special.

So to align your system with that, bonus spellpoints would also have to be based on Cha.

[LanSlyde]

If you're really using Ari's fix you have some tweaking to do. The final version of Ari's fix does the following:

- Mystery DCs based on Cha
- Bonus mysteries based on Cha
- Highest mystery known based on Int

This means that the Shadowcaster would care most about Cha, and all their stat boosts would go there; 19 Int would let them learn any mystery in the game, and more than that wouldn't do anything special.

So to align your system with that, bonus spellpoints would also have to be based on Cha.

So it does. Bah, this is what I get for posting without sleep. Anyway, our fix using Unearthed Arcana gives shadowcasters plenty of mysteries to cast. So it works.

[Roguenewb]

somebody recommended that mysteries per day become mysteries per encounter, i feel like that will even out the shadowcaster pretty well *if* your play group is into longer, slower encounters, and not rocket tag.

[Lans]

You might also want to up his fundamental count by 1 so he can get all of themk

[gorfnab]

There are a few other Shadowcaster fixes in my handbook in my signature.

[Answerer]

The problem with shadowcasters is not what they can do, but that they run out of power so damn fast.
This isn't really true, I'm sad to say. Running out of power is the more serious problem by far, but they also lack quality mysteries to take. Shadowcasters can make good counterspellers (but oh my is that a niche role, and others can do it far better), and they can make an odd sort of gish that kind of works, but that's really the only things that the mysteries are good for. A very high proportion of mysteries are really quite poor...

In a game without much in the way of normal spells, they could probably do well. But even a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer is going to show them up hard.

[Psyren]

I think they have enough choices to be decent (especially if you use Ari's fix to let them "jump around" between paths.) Mysteries may be weaker than spells, but they are stronger than Invocations. (Though they should really, really get the Shadow Conjuration line.)

[LanSlyde]

This isn't really true, I'm sad to say. Running out of power is the more serious problem by far, but they also lack quality mysteries to take. Shadowcasters can make good counterspellers (but oh my is that a niche role, and others can do it far better), and they can make an odd sort of gish that kind of works, but that's really the only things that the mysteries are good for. A very high proportion of mysteries are really quite poor...

In a game without much in the way of normal spells, they could probably do well. But even a Beguiler or Dread Necromancer is going to show them up hard.

While the term "quality" is subjective I would love some examples of what you think is a worthless mystery.

Honestly I think shadowcasters would benefit greatly if their metamagic feats functioned more than X per day. |-_-|

[Psyren]

While the term "quality" is subjective I would love some examples of what you think is a worthless mystery.

Honestly I think shadowcasters would benefit greatly if their metamagic feats functioned more than X per day. |-_-|

Indeed, though to be fair you can just rely on the rods and spend your feats elsewhere. (3/day, daily recharge)

The exception of course is Still Mystery, which is unlimited use and affects all your mysteries. I don't know if they simply overlooked that one or what, but hell yeah I'll play a Shadow-Psion, thanks!

[LanSlyde]

Indeed, though to be fair you can just rely on the rods and spend your feats elsewhere. (3/day, daily recharge)

The exception of course is Still Mystery, which is unlimited use and affects all your mysteries. I don't know if they simply overlooked that one or what, but hell yeah I'll play a Shadow-Psion, thanks!

hmm, if your dipping into psionics, check out umbral touch and the stand still feat. I won't give away all my details, but you can probably figure out the shenanigans involved. It's one of my favorite lockdown caster builds. :smallwink:

[Tvtyrant]

The best solution I have found is to simply gestalt the Shadowcaster and the Warlock. They have opposite problems, and when you put them together it effectively fixes them and puts them fairly deep into tier 3.

Warlock grants stamina to the Shadowcaster, while the Shadowcaster grants relevant nova abilities to the Warlock.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Indeed, though to be fair you can just rely on the rods and spend your feats elsewhere. (3/day, daily recharge)

The exception of course is Still Mystery, which is unlimited use and affects all your mysteries. I don't know if they simply overlooked that one or what, but hell yeah I'll play a Shadow-Psion, thanks!

...Actually, now that I think of it, is there a mystery/psionic theurgy class? I know that Shadowcasters can qualify for either side of Mystic Theurge, but I'm pretty sure that that's a specific exception.

A low-power (but useful!) fix my group uses for the fundamentals is to change their save to 10+1/2 HD+Charisma modifier, same as you would for any other supernatural ability.

[LanSlyde]

A low-power (but useful!) fix my group uses for the fundamentals is to change their save to 10+1/2 HD+Charisma modifier, same as you would for any other supernatural ability.

... so did you mean apprentice mysteries? Because that would kinda be pointless for fundamentals. If you did mean apprentice mysteries, then congrats, you came up with on your own exactly what Ari Marmell stated in his personal fix.

EDIT: My bad, there are more offensive fundamentals than I remembered. I just only grab the ones for utility. Sowwy. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

The best solution I have found is to simply gestalt the Shadowcaster and the Warlock. They have opposite problems, and when you put them together it effectively fixes them and puts them fairly deep into tier 3.

Warlock grants stamina to the Shadowcaster, while the Shadowcaster grants relevant nova abilities to the Warlock.

I use this solution for lots of T4s (the ones that fit thematically anyway.)


...Actually, now that I think of it, is there a mystery/psionic theurgy class? I know that Shadowcasters can qualify for either side of Mystic Theurge, but I'm pretty sure that that's a specific exception.

Unfortunately no, because both Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge specify a "type" of casting (arcane and divine respectively) thus barring them from SC.

[LanSlyde]

Unfortunately no, because both Cerebremancer and Psychic Theurge specify a "type" of casting (arcane and divine respectively) thus barring them from SC.

Indeed, however a friend of mine (who I will admit has been at this game far longer than I have) came up with a method involving the Noctumancer and Mythic Theurge classes to achieve full spell lists between all 3 magic types. Basically if he was level 20 he would have the full access to level 9 wizard, cleric, and shadowcaster spells.

[Answerer]

While the term "quality" is subjective I would love some examples of what you think is a worthless mystery.
Mostly I remember a bunch of examples where it was "hey, this is a Core spell, except weaker and/or placed at a higher level without any actual improvement."

Granted, many Core spells are overpowered. But it's hard to avoid comparing the mysteries with the Core spells they're based on. If Shadowcasters stood alone, that'd be one thing. It's in the comparison that they just... feel bad.


The best solution I have found is to simply gestalt the Shadowcaster and the Warlock. They have opposite problems, and when you put them together it effectively fixes them and puts them fairly deep into tier 3.

Warlock grants stamina to the Shadowcaster, while the Shadowcaster grants relevant nova abilities to the Warlock.
I did a Warlock 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer and felt rather underwhelmed by the experience, but then losing a mystery-casting level and three invoking levels is a pretty big hit vs. true gestalt.

[Lans]

Mostly I remember a bunch of examples where it was "hey, this is a Core spell, except weaker and/or placed at a higher level without any actual improvement."

I've noticed the opposite of a lot of shadow caster stuff, they get dominate monster as an 8th level mystery, their shadow evocations can do on level effects instead of level -1, light and darkness as one power.

Granted they don't get any of the game breakers or anything like that

[LanSlyde]

Mostly I remember a bunch of examples where it was "hey, this is a Core spell, except weaker and/or placed at a higher level without any actual improvement."

Granted, many Core spells are overpowered. But it's hard to avoid comparing the mysteries with the Core spells they're based on. If Shadowcasters stood alone, that'd be one thing. It's in the comparison that they just... feel bad.


I did a Warlock 1/Shadowcaster 3/Noctumancer and felt rather underwhelmed by the experience, but then losing a mystery-casting level and three invoking levels is a pretty big hit vs. true gestalt.

Possibly, the Shadowcaster is one of those classes that isn't automatically awesome, but it's still a powerful caster in its own right. Dark Terrain can completely shut down melee if used right, Black Magic is your anticaster path. Don't even get me started on Ebon Walls and Breath of Twilight.

It's one of those rare classes that mixes stealth and magic in a very effective manner. I personally love it.

[Psyren]

Mysteries are stronger in some respects and weaker in others. For instance, Shadows Fade comes later than Dispel Magic, and Pass Into Shadow is less useful than Plane Shift (though you at least don't need the focus.)

But there are enough examples where Mysteries are better to make me declare it a wash, at a minimum.

- Arrow of Dusk is probably the best damaging "cantrip" in the game.
- Command, that can daze undead/constructs
- Stronger Mage Hand
- Lower level Break Enchantment
- One of the strongest decurses in the game (Unveil)
- Animate Objects at a lower level, plus the object(s) gain concealment
- A source of temp HP comparable to Vigor

And then there's the standard decent picks like shadow Time Stop, shadow Summon Monster, shadow True Seeing etc.

[Invader]

Think thats bad, try play a DFA and only getting 1 invocation every 3 levels :smallfrown:

[LanSlyde]

Mysteries are stronger in some respects and weaker in others. For instance, Shadows Fade comes later than Dispel Magic, and Pass Into Shadow is less useful than Plane Shift (though you at least don't need the focus.)

But there are enough examples where Mysteries are better to make me declare it a wash, at a minimum.

- Arrow of Dusk is probably the best damaging "cantrip" in the game.
- Command, that can daze undead/constructs
- Stronger Mage Hand
- Lower level Break Enchantment
- One of the strongest decurses in the game (Unveil)
- Animate Objects at a lower level, plus the object(s) gain concealment
- A source of temp HP comparable to Vigor

And then there's the standard decent picks like shadow Time Stop, shadow Summon Monster, shadow True Seeing etc.

Flood of Shadow: it acts as a weaker AMF + Empower Spell (Accessable at lvl 9).

Sight Eclipsed: Hide in plain sight, (accessable at level 3)

Shadow Vision: A very angry Save or Suck, -4 on AtkRolls, saves, AblChks, and SkillChks + total concealment to target

Prison of Night: locked in a box, try to escape and you take con damage

Tomb of Night: locked in a box, try to escape and you take negative levels

Consume Essence: Save or Die and your now a zombie under my command

Greater Life Fades: 1d6NL dmg/level + exhaustion, multiple targets

Greater Flesh Fails: -6Str, or -6Dex, or -4 Con, multiple targets, no save. (Target wizards with STR to watch them go all jello legs on you!)

Ephemeral Storm: Mass Save or Die.

What I am getting at is while yeah, the tier 1 - 2 primary casters may be better over all, the shadowcaster is nothing to laugh at.

[GenghisDon]

Thanks for the info, all. I/we never really added the TOM characters into our games (we stopped playing 3.5 for several years), although I read them all over & was thinking on slowly adding them in when we ended up switching editions.

The usefulness/power levels of the classes seemed to me to go: binder, shadowcaster, true namer, and it seems that was correct, even several years later. I'll read up on the books for Shadowcaster to see what you guys suggest. I don't care about making them uber, but I'd like them to be useful & hold their own in combat. Fun to play, also, of course.

[LanSlyde]

Thanks for the info, all. I/we never really added the TOM characters into our games (we stopped playing 3.5 for several years), although I read them all over & was thinking on slowly adding them in when we ended up switching editions.

The usefulness/power levels of the classes seemed to me to go: binder, shadowcaster, true namer, and it seems that was correct, even several years later. I'll read up on the books for Shadowcaster to see what you guys suggest. I don't care about making them uber, but I'd like them to be useful & hold their own in combat. Fun to play, also, of course.

The thing with Shadow Casters is while yes they are technically primary casters they are stealth based casters, much like the beguiler. So if your trying to be the angry wizard on the hill then your doing it wrong. :tongue:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Don't forget to check out the Cityscape web enhancement! Ari Marmell contributed more than a dozen new mysteries.

[LanSlyde]

Don't forget to check out the Cityscape web enhancement! Ari Marmell contributed more than a dozen new mysteries.

Impressive, but the only one I would go for would be black labyrinth. I would use it on my stronghold. |^_^|

[GenghisDon]

Thanks, I just favourite-d:smallsmile: the page

[lsfreak]

The semi-official fix from the author
Unlimited use of the Fundamentals you know
One extra use per day of all Apprentice mysteries
At 7th and every odd level thereafter, gain an additional floating bonus slot of your newest mystery level (4th at 7th, 5th at 9th), as if from high Cha
Gain an additional mystery known at 1st, 4th, and every even level thereafter
Miscellaneous small mystery fixes to make the worst mysteries worth taking
Add Realm of Chaos's massive list of new mysteries

[GenghisDon]

where is all that to be found?

[lsfreak]

where is all that to be found?

The un/semi-official fix from the author (http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/184955-shadowcaster-fixes-mouseferatu.html#post3273239)
Realm of Chaos' work (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74519)

The miscellany of mystery fixes are mostly just in my head, come up on the spot, if someone wants one but it looks like it's going to be predominantly useless or overly restrictive.
"If you mark someone with a special cast of Liquid Night (takes 1 minute), you can always use Congress of Shadows with them, even if you don't know the location. Give up response and halve the word limit to target anyone you can give a clear description for or can picture their face clearly, no matter the location [e.g. the king of X's oldest son - which is still prone to problems if the king has an illegitimate son you don't know of, for example]."

And I tend to play with ritual-like versions of a lot of (non-combat) spells since I think they're fun. One for Congress of Shadows might, for example, allow ritual members + the same number of targets join in a pocket of the Plane of Shadows and talk for 2 minutes.

[GenghisDon]

cool, thnx:smallsmile:

all I could find searching for realms of chaos was warhammer stuff before