Snowcasting

[Yorae]

With regard to the Snowcasting feat from Frostburn (add a material component of a handful of snow to a spell and it gains the [Cold] descriptor):

Is there a way to make the material component practical? Firstly, I'm a little confused because a spell component pouch is assumed to have any necessary spell components in it that do not have a monetary cost listed, which includes snow... but... that doesn't really make any sense. Can Eschew Materials save you here? I'm not certain that it would due to the wording of the feats.

Any help is appreciated.

[Person_Man]

Minor Creation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm)

[Yorae]

Minor Creation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm)

And an insulated bag? =p

[Curmudgeon]

Can Eschew Materials save you here? I'm not certain that it would due to the wording of the feats.
No, Eschew Materials doesn't enable Snowcasting. Eschew Materials only works for spells which have required material components. The snow/ice for Snowcasting isn't required for the spell to be cast, and doesn't become a component of (and thus change the characteristics of) the spell until you actually add it.

[HunterOfJello]

Nope, you need to go walking around with actual snow to get this stuff done. I'm sure you can find some way to create some extra snow on the fly like using a decanter of endless water thingy and casting some cold spells on it or something. However, you need some actual snow to get the job done.

[Ernir]

Minor Creation. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/minorCreation.htm)

But "Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail."?

[Boci]

But "Attempting to use any created object as a material component causes the spell to fail."?

The snow isn't a material component.

[Kuulvheysoon]

The snow isn't a material component.

It is for a snowcast'd spell. Snow created by Minor Creation cannot be used as the material component, though.

[Boci]

It is for a snowcast'd spell.

Not according to Curmudgeon, unless I misread his post.

[Kuulvheysoon]

No, Eschew Materials doesn't enable Snowcasting. Eschew Materials only works for spells which have required material components. The snow/ice for Snowcasting isn't required for the spell to be cast, and doesn't become a component of (and thus change the characteristics of) the spell until you actually add it.

Bolded for emphasis. What he means is that you can't use Eschew Components to get around the snow requirement because when you prepare the spell, it doesn't call for snow as a material component. You can choose to add snow at the time of casting to snowcast it.

[Yorae]

Worth noting that snowcasting says "This snow or ice can be magically created by a conjuration spell", which may mean that minor creation will work.

[Agent 451]

Would that mean that a casting of Snilloc's Snowball from UE work as well?

Nevermind, only a 1 round duration.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Worth noting that snowcasting says "This snow or ice can be magically created by a conjuration spell", which may mean that minor creation will work.

Except that minor creation can only create non-living vegetable matter.

Which snow is not.

[Baka Nikujaga]

Nope, you need to go walking around with actual snow to get this stuff done. I'm sure you can find some way to create some extra snow on the fly like using a decanter of endless water thingy and casting some cold spells on it or something. However, you need some actual snow to get the job done.

Could we combine a Decanter of Endless Water (or any source of water) with a Blue Ice freezer box and stick it next to something like Stygian Ice or Rimefire Ice?

[Yorae]

Except that minor creation can only create non-living vegetable matter.

Which snow is not.

Derp. Forgot that important bit.

Such an unusual requirement, this feat has.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Summon Component, Complete Mage, 1st level sorcerer/wizard, swift action casting time. Get a wand of that and per Rules Compendium it's a swift action to activate it. Wand Chambers detailed in Dungeonscape can be added to any weapon or shield, so wear a gauntlet with a wand chamber and you can keep your hands free and still activate it whenever you want.

[King Atticus]

Wand Chambers detailed in Dungeonscape can be added to any weapon or shield, so wear a gauntlet with a wand chamber and you can keep your hands free and still activate it whenever you want.

Actually it says a little higher up...weapons cannot have modifications unless they have a solid hilt or handle that is at least 6 inches in length.

I'm pretty sure that's going to exclude gauntlets, a staff would work though you could even put a wand in each end if you were so inclined.

[Agent 451]

You could put it into a casting glove, or a wand chamber attached to a buckler.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You could carry a small box composed of blue ice. The frost that forms on the inside can be occasionally scraped loose to give you a box full of ice shavings. As long as you're not in a dry climate you'll always have some ice on you. If you have no cold resistance then you might want to put the blue ice box inside a normal box to protect yourself from its chill.

[DementedFellow]

Use the Sandshaper PrC and carry around 15 lbs of sand. You can now turn it into snow if you so desire. You get the added benefit of it increasing your casting level.

Shapesand could also work if you wanted to it, but somehow I like the idea of using sand to create snow.

[Killer Angel]

Alternatively, find a DM that doesn't care about it.
It may not be RAW, but works. :smalltongue:

[Psyren]

Summon Component, Complete Mage, 1st level sorcerer/wizard, swift action casting time. Get a wand of that and per Rules Compendium it's a swift action to activate it. Wand Chambers detailed in Dungeonscape can be added to any weapon or shield, so wear a gauntlet with a wand chamber and you can keep your hands free and still activate it whenever you want.

Yep, this should do the trick (with or without the wand chamber.)

[Downysole]

I think that the intent for this feat is to be linked to a cold climate, where snow is abundant. If you're not in a cold climate, you have to find a way to get the snow to come to you, though. The summon spell component wand idea makes a lot of sense, but how do you do that if you're a cleric?

[Eldan]

Magic domain would do the trick.

[Flickerdart]

I think that the intent for this feat is to be linked to a cold climate, where snow is abundant. If you're not in a cold climate, you have to find a way to get the snow to come to you, though. The summon spell component wand idea makes a lot of sense, but how do you do that if you're a cleric?
Serve a deity of cold, and plot to bring an ice age down upon the world, of course. Or take the Magic of Spell domains, if you're some sort of wimp.

[DoughGuy]

I think that the intent for this feat is to be linked to a cold climate, where snow is abundant. If you're not in a cold climate, you have to find a way to get the snow to come to you, though. The summon spell component wand idea makes a lot of sense, but how do you do that if you're a cleric?
But wouldnt being in a cold environment mean most foes have a resistance to cold? Thus making the spell weaker by adding the cold descriptor?

[Roguenewb]

I dont know where you are getting the Eschew materials doesn't work. Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.

You add the material component, and now the spell has a material component of 1 gp or less (unless you play in an awesome setting where snows is expensive...), and woosh, you don't need the snow anymore. No where does it say anything about only working for required components....are you thinking back to 3.0 where Eschew Materials was a +0 metamagic?

[Yorae]

I dont know where you are getting the Eschew materials doesn't work. Benefit

You can cast any spell that has a material component costing 1 gp or less without needing that component.

You add the material component, and now the spell has a material component of 1 gp or less (unless you play in an awesome setting where snows is expensive...), and woosh, you don't need the snow anymore. No where does it say anything about only working for required components....are you thinking back to 3.0 where Eschew Materials was a +0 metamagic?

You gain the benefit of the [Cold] descriptor on your spell when you add the snow, but you CAN can it without using the snow. Since Eschew Materials says "you can cast..." it doesn't actually let you get free snowcasting. You can cast the spell without material components, but since you didn't add the snow you don't get the descriptor.

[Downysole]

But wouldnt being in a cold environment mean most foes have a resistance to cold? Thus making the spell weaker by adding the cold descriptor?

From the same source as this feat, there are several feats that make [Cold] spells more powerful in a lot of ways.

[ps377]

First, if you are in a cold environment, where the enemies may have resistance to cold, then you can find snow or ice almost anywhere and you dont have to worry about finding snow.

then, if you are not in a cold environment, how about you use control temperature (http://dndtools.eu/spells/frostburn--68/control-temperature--1303/), its moving around with you, and its too cold if u lower temperature enough. In a wet environment, u can walk around and find ice, or, u can call some rain and having snow or hail falling down. That would be some real fresh snow. And, there would be not too many creatures with resistance to cold

[JaronK]

If you're a Druid, try casting Blizzard to fill the area with snow. If your enemies weren't expecting this and you were, it's an amazing spell. Consider casting Snowsight first. At higher levels cast Whiteout with Snowsight and you can prance around in a winter wonderland while everyone else is blind and freezing.

JaronK

[ps377]

a lvl 5 spell.. that too much costy if you just want to create snow to use for snowcasting. And only for some rounds.. (im not saying a battle will go for more than 9 rounds, but..), control temperature is lvl 3 spell and its on for 1 hour per lvl and create water is lvl 0 spell, and frostburn states that "Natural or magical cold can instantly freeze water.", so, u can have some gallons of water around you and use that as ice.

[Vaz]

Derp. Forgot that important bit.

Such an unusual requirement, this feat has.

Not really. It's intended so that when you go walking around the Frostfell, you can stoop to pick up a handful of snow to make your spells more powerful. Not really intended so that you can go to the Wasteland in Sandstorm and then go around casting spells off it; however, if you can create the snow or ice by another means, then sure, it's there so it's not a wasted feat if you suddenly do find yourself in the middle of the Wastes.

[Spuddles]

a lvl 5 spell.. that too much costy if you just want to create snow to use for snowcasting. And only for some rounds.. (im not saying a battle will go for more than 9 rounds, but..), control temperature is lvl 3 spell and its on for 1 hour per lvl and create water is lvl 0 spell, and frostburn states that "Natural or magical cold can instantly freeze water.", so, u can have some gallons of water around you and use that as ice.

And the snow doesn't last long enough to be useful.

If you're going to be burning 5th level slots, and are a druid, Call Avalanche gets you a little over 500,000lbs of snow at CL9. At CL 20 it gets you 2.5 million lbs of snow.

[Saintheart]

If you're a Druid, try casting Blizzard to fill the area with snow. If your enemies weren't expecting this and you were, it's an amazing spell. Consider casting Snowsight first. At higher levels cast Whiteout with Snowsight and you can prance around in a winter wonderland while everyone else is blind and freezing.

JaronK

If you're not damping the casting levels, I hope you've got Resistance to Cold and some way to avoid suffocation and dig yourself out of the snow. Powerful though Blizzard is, you can hit yourself with it: at CL 10 or so you're making a thousand-foot radius spell, but the spell can only be cast from Long range, i.e. at CL 10 you can only cast it from 800 feet away at maximum. :smallbiggrin:

On keeping your snow in an insulated bag: would a Bag of Holding do the job as the ultimate vacuum flask? It's an extradimensional space, and I'd understood it was a vacuum inside? There's no transfer of heat energy while within it? Any thoughts?

[TuggyNE]

On keeping your snow in an insulated bag: would a Bag of Holding do the job as the ultimate vacuum flask? It's an extradimensional space, and I'd understood it was a vacuum inside? There's no transfer of heat energy while within it? Any thoughts?

There's air inside, equalized and refreshed whenever you open it. There's just no reliable source of oxygen.

[JaronK]

If you're not damping the casting levels, I hope you've got Resistance to Cold and some way to avoid suffocation and dig yourself out of the snow. Powerful though Blizzard is, you can hit yourself with it: at CL 10 or so you're making a thousand-foot radius spell, but the spell can only be cast from Long range, i.e. at CL 10 you can only cast it from 800 feet away at maximum. :smallbiggrin:

Heh, my current Archivist is planning to use this trick... and we absolutely are getting the whole party into Cold Weather Outfits and Furs, plus handling flight. You can make the area REALLY hostile to enemies and yet be fully prepared.

JaronK

[Ruethgar]

Technically Create Water can create snow as it is only strongly implied that you create water as liquid, not explicitly stated. Prestidigitation can make snow too but again, you run into the minor creation issue barring the use as spell components.

[Curmudgeon]

Technically Create Water can create snow as it is only strongly implied that you create water as liquid, not explicitly stated.
That reasoning only works with modern chemical knowledge, where ice = water = steam. D&D doesn't have that chemical knowledge, so Create Water always produces a liquid.

[ps377]

from Frostburn, part of Snowcasting feat:
"Adding this additional material component requires
you to spend a move action immediately before the spell
is cast to gather fresh snow or ice from the surrounding
environment. This snow or ice can be magically created by
a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell
will do. You may take no other action between gathering the
snow or ice and casting the spell."

I would take this as: you cant use bag of holding to get the snow from inside and you cant throw the snow around you so you will have it to you environment (it wont count as fresh snow). I dont know what you are thinking about something being fresh or not, but if you buy a fresh fish here, it supposed to be fished that morning..
Im not a DM and im trying to build a cold arcane hierophant, so im not very strict, but i wanna play by the rules, so i dont think bag of holding will do..
Just use extended Contol Weather, extended endure elements to all the party, and if there is not too much moisture in the environment to become ice, you can use create water and it will freeze almost instantly.

[Spuddles]

Technically Create Water can create snow as it is only strongly implied that you create water as liquid, not explicitly stated. Prestidigitation can make snow too but again, you run into the minor creation issue barring the use as spell components.

Water and ice are only the same if ordered states don't matter. You may as well argue that your full plate is a greatsword because they both are made out of steel.

[Spuddles]

from Frostburn, part of Snowcasting feat:
"Adding this additional material component requires
you to spend a move action immediately before the spell
is cast to gather fresh snow or ice from the surrounding
environment. This snow or ice can be magically created by
a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell
will do. You may take no other action between gathering the
snow or ice and casting the spell."

I would take this as: you cant use bag of holding to get the snow from inside and you cant throw the snow around you so you will have it to you environment (it wont count as fresh snow). I dont know what you are thinking about something being fresh or not, but if you buy a fresh fish here, it supposed to be fished that morning..
Im not a DM and im trying to build a cold arcane hierophant, so im not very strict, but i wanna play by the rules, so i dont think bag of holding will do..
Just use extended Contol Weather, extended endure elements to all the party, and if there is not too much moisture in the environment to become ice, you can use create water and it will freeze almost instantly.

A handy haversack will hold 80lbs of ice and you can retrieve some of it as a move action. I would be fine as a DM that a HHH or other extradimensional space, unless otherwise noted, acts as an insulator.

Even if your DM rules against that, a bag of holding type two, wrapped in blankets, should keep several hundred pounds of snow "fresh" for upwards of a week, so long as ambient temps stay under 70F. Because of the high air content of snow, it is a natural insulator and takes a long time to melt, especially without direct sunlight.

Just pull some out to be handy as a standard action when you plan on being in combat. A five pound ball of snow in an insulated belt pouch will last hours- long enough for most dungeon crawls.

[ps377]

A handy haversack will hold 80lbs of ice and you can retrieve some of it as a move action.

but not collect it from the surrounding environment as a move action. Well its as everyone says.. Read it as you like. You may have collect the snow as a move action some hours ago, and use it when still fresh later.. Everyone just do as his/her DM says.


(can pls someone tell me how to quote from someone else..? like Spuddles did: Originally Posted by ps377) :p

[Spuddles]

but not collect it from the surrounding environment as a move action. Well its as everyone says.. Read it as you like. You may have collect the snow as a move action some hours ago, and use it when still fresh later.. Everyone just do as his/her DM says.


(can pls someone tell me how to quote from someone else..? like Spuddles did: Originally Posted by ps377) :p

Press the quote button at the bottom of a post. Use the " button to quote multiple users as you go through a thread.

I guess it depends on what counts as "fresh". Does snow on a windblown cornice count? In a high desert, that stuff could be months or even years old.

[ps377]

I guess it depends on what counts as "fresh". Does snow on a windblown cornice count? In a high desert, that stuff could be months or even years old.

well, as i told before, if i wanted a fresh fish, then it means that the fish was fished that morning.. (no more than 24h ago i guess).

And thx for teaching me xD

[Nightraiderx]

Obscuring Snow 2nd lvl conjuration spell, snow at your fingertips and hide away from enemies. lasts hr/lvl

[ps377]

Obscuring Snow 2nd lvl conjuration spell, snow at your fingertips and hide away from enemies. lasts hr/lvl

Snowcasting required a handful of snow.. not just some snow at your fingertips.. (i was thinking about that too..)

[Flickerdart]

Snowcasting required a handful of snow.. not just some snow at your fingertips.. (i was thinking about that too..)
The smaller you are, the less snow you need. :smalltongue:

[Nightraiderx]

Just get something to collect the snow, the spell lasts hours per level, I'm sure you can just make a snow pouch collector.

[Zombulian]

Actually it says a little higher up...weapons cannot have modifications unless they have a solid hilt or handle that is at least 6 inches in length.

I'm pretty sure that's going to exclude gauntlets, a staff would work though you could even put a wand in each end if you were so inclined.

You could always get the Strong Arms graft and put a wand chamber warforged component in your arm.

[Mato]

Ray of Frost
Evocation [Cold]
Level: Sor/Wiz 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.Also Frostburn has a rules section on using fire damage to melt ice. I forgot the exact ratio but it stands to reason the same applies in reverse.

Since Snowcasting works with a handful of ice, problem solved.


But wouldnt being in a cold environment mean most foes have a resistance to cold? Thus making the spell weaker by adding the cold descriptor?Having the cold descriptor doesn't really change much, it just allows the spell to qualify for various additions. Like Energy Substitution, Born of Three Thunders, and Explosive Spell.

[Zeb]

Get a pair of ring gates (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#ringGates) and leave one at the nearest snow-covered mountain.

[ps377]

Also Frostburn has a rules section on using fire damage to melt ice. I forgot the exact ratio but it stands to reason the same applies in reverse.

Since Snowcasting works with a handful of ice, problem solved.


Snowcasting:"This snow or ice can be magically created by
a conjuration spell, but no other ice manifested by a spell
will do."

sorry, Ray of Frost wont do..

[Spuddles]

sorry, Ray of Frost wont do..

What if you freeze water with it?

[ps377]

What if you freeze water with it?

i was thinking a lot about that too, but i think that this spell will not freeze any water.. unfortunately.. Other spells that freeze water or anything else are stating that they do, or, like Control temperature, its stating that "Effects of the new temperature on creatures and the environment are incurred immediately".