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Morithias
2012-08-09, 04:57 PM
Note: This is NOT a thread to argue about sexism in the media or the like, this is a thread about me trying to improve my roleplaying.

Lately I've been looking over a lot of my old builds, and I've realized a lot of my females characters...don't seem female. They seem more like "Men with breasts". For example the black knight Iseria, who is defined by her goal to become the greatest swordfighter in existence, who wears a full mechanus plate, and is a dark cleric of Bel. There really isn't any aspect of her personally outside of her relationship with the Prince that says "female".

Google defines feminine as follows.

"Having qualities or appearance traditionally associated with women, esp. delicacy and prettiness."

Okay. Simple enough. I find the "delicacy" a tad sexiest as it implies girls are fragile, but it does define it. "Prettiness" we'll let slide, cause this is D&D and unless a character has a badass scar every PC is pretty or at least average looking.

So this ultimately lead me to turn to the greatest collection of roleplaying mind in existence, this forum.

What to you defines: "feminine".

If I asked you to make a "feminine" Paladin, how would you do it?

Assassin? Barbarian? Cleric? Wizard?

Help me make it so my female characters are more than just "men who happens to have two x chromosomes"

Disclaimer: I am not one of those perverts who plays female characters for the sexual nature of it (The Ninja assassin being the exception), I do it because no one else in my group will, and in campaigns settings with continuity, it's nice if every adventuring group isn't all male for implication purposes.

Water_Bear
2012-08-09, 05:14 PM
I think Extra Credits over at Penny Arcade TV have a good video about good characterization for female characters. They're about video game design rather than tabletop, but it will still be 100x more insightful than me.

But my 2cp? I would say that the difference in Male/Female personalities is primarily based on social factors. Earth-shattering I know.

If you compared any random woman on the street from London today to a woman from Victorian England, a woman who was the contemporary of William the Conquerer, and a Roman woman from Londinium you would find that the modern woman had much more in common in terms of personality with a modern male Englishman than any of her fellow women throughout history.

So basically; how did women in the time/culture your game setting is based on tend to behave? How does that interact with her goals and upbringing? Ta-da! You now have a nuanced female character.

At least that's how I try to do it, and the women in my D&D group seem to find the female NPCs they run into fairly three dimensional. I might be off-base though; self-serving bias and all that.

Lord Tyger
2012-08-09, 05:16 PM
Ultimately, the defining characteristic of female humanoids is their ability to conceive and bear children. Make sure all of your female characters are pregnant as often as possible.

Dragvandil
2012-08-09, 06:13 PM
You might be over complicating things.

True, we do lack the required genitalia to know first hand, but it's not especially hard.

We already take our own gender into account when we make characters. So the only extra step is "Ok, Im a girl *insert race* what is my society like, what is expected of me. What drove me from that towards this?"

For the more bookish professions (Cleric, Wizard, etc.) there really isnt a lot of development that needs to be done, but for your black knight it is a little more complex.

She could be following in the footsteps of her father, or she could come from a place where the normal social constructs (men in the field, women at home) had to be abandoned in favor of "Everyone grab a weapon and kill some orcs before they over run us!"

In the end the motivations are the same for women. A man wants to be strong so he can protect himself (same for a woman); a man wants power so he can live comfortably and reproduce (same for a woman)

Id stay away from 2 things. 1.) Rape. Rape in a back story is a cop out, and is kiiiiinda sexist. A woman doesn't need be raped to be a moving and complex protagonist. and 2.) Polarity. Your female character doesn't have to be a wannabe man, but she also shouldn't be a dainty princess. (Unless you have written them that way because that is what really makes the most sense to you.)

If you are still having trouble, ask a girl. Take the character to a female friend and have them look it over. Listen to their critiques and advice.

Morithias
2012-08-09, 06:26 PM
Id stay away from 2 things. 1.) Rape. Rape in a back story is a cop out, and is kiiiiinda sexist. A woman doesn't need be raped to be a moving and complex protagonist. and 2.) Polarity. Your female character doesn't have to be a wannabe man, but she also shouldn't be a dainty princess. (Unless you have written them that way because that is what really makes the most sense to you.)


All good suggestions.

I tend to avoid rape as a whole, it's just an uncomfortable topic. There has been basically one instance of "Rape" in a campaign I've played in and it resulted in the guy's death due to the woman being a ninja.

As for polarity. I find both parts have places if they're played well, but you are right, extremes and stereotypes probably should be avoided. If she's a hulking barbarian it shouldn't be cause she wants to be a man, it should be cause she likes smashing things with her club.

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-09, 06:32 PM
Well for one thing, not all females are feminine. Your black knight swordfighter chick sounds like a great example of a female character with low femininity.

Now, in my own past playing female characters, I've done a few things such as wearing pretty clothes or insisting on comfortable accomodations at the best inn in town. Women tend to be more in touch with their emotions than men, so remember to balance what you think is best with what feels the best when making decisions. I also find that following rather than leading is a good way to avoid appearing socially dominant.

Alternatively, you can try the Jack Nicholson approach:

I think of a man, and I take away reason and accountability.

Menteith
2012-08-09, 06:36 PM
Ultimately, the defining characteristic of female humanoids is their ability to conceive and bear children. Make sure all of your female characters are pregnant as often as possible.

So infertile and post menopausal individuals aren't female? :smallconfused:

Amazo
2012-08-09, 06:58 PM
So infertile and post menopausal individuals aren't female? :smallconfused:

For the sake of the one joke it is.

Mari01
2012-08-09, 07:30 PM
So infertile and post menopausal individuals aren't female? :smallconfused:

Calm yourself. It's just a joke yikes.

nedz
2012-08-09, 07:31 PM
A few years ago I played a female character in a game of WHFRP. There were a couple of female players and the only comment I got was "Oh, your such a Lady" when I turned down the advances of a male NPC. :smallbiggrin: Its just my PoV, but I find RPing sex to be quite sad - its not what I play games to do, well ...

I just played her as loyal and protective, as well as keen to demonstrate her athleticism. She died right at the end of the campaign when she went back to try and rescue the stubborn Dwarf.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-09, 07:36 PM
My current character in Pathfinder is a cross-dressing bardic sorcerer. He's all kinds of feminine.

If it bothers you, give her a sex drive. No reason why she wouldn't have one. Men, women, whatever's your fancy -- just don't break the character -- and she'll be just that much more real for you.

nedz
2012-08-09, 08:15 PM
My current character in Pathfinder is a cross-dressing bardic sorcerer. He's all kinds of feminine.

Wouldn't he just burn all of his spell slots on Disguise Self ?:smallbiggrin:
He'd definitely want Extend spell as well.

Kitten Champion
2012-08-09, 09:14 PM
Wouldn't he just burn all of his spell slots on Disguise Self ?:smallbiggrin:
He'd definitely want Extend spell as well.

He was the son of a prostitute that ended up as a theatrical performer in a small port city's red-light district with a strong cross-gender acting convention similar to kabuki. He likes the feel and sensation of women's clothes, cosmetics, jewellery, and lacquered nails - whether people recognize his sex or not is irrelevant to him given his titanic ego.

Recognizing femininity/masculinity as a performance, something we cast on and off for our own purposes, makes it an interesting role-playing tool. One I think, some are afraid to use.

Manly Man
2012-08-09, 09:31 PM
Wouldn't he just burn all of his spell slots on Disguise Self ?:smallbiggrin:
He'd definitely want Extend spell as well.

Persistent Spell if at all possible.

As for the actual topic at hand, pretty much just think of aesthetics. If you want to have that paladin seem more feminine, have her armor cup her breasts, her hair long, and wear a dress or a skirt along with the armor. A sorceress could prefer certain fabrics, like velvet or silk, and enjoy putting on makeup, because it would be a terrible insult to blow up her enemies when she's badly dressed.

Really, all you need to do is think of something that would fit that character's personality, twist it to fit the class, and there you go.

lotusblossom13
2012-08-09, 09:31 PM
This is incredibly subjective of course, but some actions just feel overtly feminine or masculine.

I am a woman who is currently playing a male character, and some of my ingrained habits sometimes break through while I am speaking in character. When I get nervous or scared, my voice gets higher pitched. I also tend to move my hands around a lot when I am talking, which I have noticed few males do.

Noticing actions that you take which seem overtly masculine can go great lengths into making your character seem more masculine.

You can also observe women who are around you (not in a creepy way :smallsmile:) and try to identify any habits that seem particularly feminine to you. Then remember them later and implement them into your character. I'm not talking about stereotypes mind you, just little habits that can make someone seem more masculine or feminine.

dps
2012-08-09, 09:52 PM
Okay. Simple enough. I find the "delicacy" a tad sexiest as it implies girls are fragile, but it does define it.


"Delicacy" doesn't have to be simply physical fragility. It can be delicacy of taste or manners as well.

NotScaryBats
2012-08-09, 10:03 PM
If I asked you to make a "feminine" Paladin, how would you do it?

Assassin? Barbarian? Cleric? Wizard?

Help me make it so my female characters are more than just "men who happens to have two x chromosomes"

Disclaimer: I am not one of those perverts who plays female characters for the sexual nature of it (The Ninja assassin being the exception), I do it because no one else in my group will, and in campaigns settings with continuity, it's nice if every adventuring group isn't all male for implication purposes.

As a quick note, you can make a female character that is "just a man with two X chromosomes" and that is fine. Some females are just that.

If your character's defining characteristic is "is female" you may want to reconsider your character to add depth.

But to answer your question, I would make a feminine paladin exactly like Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics. Or, like Joan, my Knight (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235860) in a PbP thread here.

A feminine assassin would be a 'black widow' spy type that uses her good looks to insinuate herself in noble society and to eliminate her targets.

My classic Conan definition of a barbarian is incompatible with femininity, so I would make my female barbarian masculine.

A feminine Cleric could be like Agrias, above, if she was more of a chivalry and honor type, or people are into 'girls are healers' so you could play into that as well, if you wanted.

Female sorceresses / wizards generally wear as little clothing as possible. lol
Jaina Proudmoore from Warcraft is an inoffensive but feminine Wizard.

Erik Vale
2012-08-09, 10:17 PM
Thinking of masculine women (I may be wrong with this) but remember Joan of Arc?
However yes, I would go with the idea of the character desireing comfort, going for more expensive inns, taking care of her armour so she didn't smell like a walking iron works and sound like a squeeling pig.
Probably put a point or two more in Charisma and Wisdom.

Remmirath
2012-08-09, 10:44 PM
The character you describe seems fine to me, frankly. I don't believe there needs to be some aspect of a character that says either 'female' or 'male'; it's more important that they have a personality, which you seem to be doing just fine, and I'd say that usually whether someone is female or male is a pretty small part of that.

Still, if you want the character to come off as more traditionally/stereotypically feminine (or masculine, in the reverse), I'd look to the setting first. If there's any information as to what the average male or female citizen tends to end up doing, or how they would be brought up, you could use that. The suggestion above of observing people (or characters in movies or TV shows) that you think of as being feminine and then gleaning some character traits from that is also a good one.

Really though, people are people. There are a lot traits that any character might end up having, and some of those are usually thought to be feminine - although that changes depending on culture and time. Not everyone who is female has them. Not everyone who is male doesn't have them.

Also, personally speaking, I would much rather see a female character who isn't all that different from a male character of the same profession than a walking stereotype wearing ludicrously styled armour/robes. What I'm trying to say there, is that if you have to err one way or the other, I think you're better off erring on the side you're already on.


As for the actual topic at hand, pretty much just think of aesthetics. If you want to have that paladin seem more feminine, have her armor cup her breasts, her hair long, and wear a dress or a skirt along with the armor. A sorceress could prefer certain fabrics, like velvet or silk, and enjoy putting on makeup, because it would be a terrible insult to blow up her enemies when she's badly dressed.

For the armour thing: another option would be to have it be highly decorated, which wouldn't decrease the effectiveness of the armour but might serve a similar purpose.

Cerlis
2012-08-09, 10:56 PM
Okay. Simple enough. I find the "delicacy" a tad sexiest as it implies girls are fragile, but it does define it. "Prettiness" we'll let slide, cause this is D&D and unless a character has a badass scar every PC is pretty or at least average looking.


This sounds a bit counter intuitive. Because "Delicate" and "pretty" ARE traditionally "feminine" attributes.

Most people would say the only thing feminine about Xena is her beauty.

It just seems more like a notion of "I want to find feminine that doesnt involve makeup and boobs , so im going to throw out the original notions of feminine"

Also, "pretty" doesnt mean "attractive". Sean Connery (at least a decade ago) despite being in his 60s was seen as an attractive man, but he wasnt pretty. Thus not feminine. There is masculine beauty and feminine beauty. And its fun to have alternate notions on it, but the fact that remains is that both of these are based on their corresponding gender

Reluctance
2012-08-09, 11:00 PM
The one big thing I've heard about girls at the table* is that they tend to be more story-oriented than goal-oriented, and that they are more focused on working as part of a well-coordinated group than they are with individual glory. Most of the people tweaking optimization to its limits have Y chromosomes. So are most of the people who fireball teammates to make sure they always do big damage to their enemies.

*(As distinct from girl gamers. They also tend to be more team-centric when the game asks for it, but console gamer girls are notably more hardened. Probably because they have to be, but as proof female does not always equal effeminate.)

The drawback being that if you're not already fundamentally aware of the social sphere around you, it's hard to fake it. A focus on courtesy and team-focused rather than self-focused habits is a start, but getting the exact feel right takes practice.

Lord Tyger
2012-08-09, 11:10 PM
So infertile and post menopausal individuals aren't female? :smallconfused:

That's correct. Likewise, individuals with no interest in being pregnant at any time, and those who are delaying it because it may not be practical while, say, robbing tombs.

Edit: In the interests of equality, I should mention, I also find it best to have male characters' genders be defined by producing children- given the average adventurer's lifestyle, this should result in 1d4-1 illegitimate children tracking the male adventurer down each weak.

Serpentine
2012-08-09, 11:28 PM
"Like a man, except female" is totally fine for a female character. I mean, I've made both male and female characters, and played with both male and female characters, and honestly I couldn't tell you what makes the difference, or what would change if you swapped them. It'd be hard to stop one of them from being your typical slutty type if he was a woman... But all the rest could pretty much go either way.

I have two suggestions that might help, though:
1. Make "being female" a significant part of her background. Is she determined to be an anti-stereotype, and so ends up being hypermasculine because of that? Has she been told all her life that femininity is Bad, and to rebel from that she actually flaunts everything female she can? Could she be from a yonnic religion?

2. Read books with female protagonists. I recommend Tamora Pierce's books, especially the Tortall ones, but they're all good. They all have a great variety of really good types of female characters you could draw inspiration from: There's the girl who had to disguise herself as a man; there's the girl who had to be the first female warrior, and so deliberately went out of her way to remind people she was a woman, despite being naturally quite masculine; there's the simple maid, weak and fragile, but who finds her inner strength; there's the noblewoman with delicate sensibilities but a core of stone; there's the noblewoman mother who knows the ins and outs of court life, but defies and manipulates it where she sees fit... and so on.

Gnome Alone
2012-08-09, 11:35 PM
That's correct. Likewise, individuals with no interest in being pregnant at any time, and those who are delaying it because it may not be practical while, say, robbing tombs.

Edit: In the interests of equality, I should mention, I also find it best to have male characters' genders be defined by producing children- given the average adventurer's lifestyle, this should result in 1d4-1 illegitimate children tracking the male adventurer down each weak.

Ha, I'm playing a loudmouth drunk human duskblade and have been sleeping with elven lady people at every opportunity, and really, really hoping to have the DM mention future illegitimate half-elf children tracking him down in the epilogue.*

Anyway, I don't really know what makes a character or person feminine. Supposedly women are more inclined to be emotionally expressive, or nurturing, compassionate, more focused on relational thinking than abstract thought, et cetera ad nauseum, but Cthulhu only knows how much of that is cultural versus genetic, or hell, even how accurate it is. I can't figure out how freaking anybody really thinks, personally. So I guess it boils down to what women are like in whatever partially made up fantasy culture you're playing in, and how much you wanna go with the standard idea they have of femininity vs. go against it. Oh, and I second Agrias from Final Fantasy Tactics as a model for a female paladin. Agrias is awesome.

*possibly for saddling them with the crappiest race in the PHB

QuidEst
2012-08-10, 12:22 AM
Just a few suggestions.

-Dry humor, bit of sarcasm, and/or cutting remarks. Not uniquely feminine, but it helps a bit. Depends on the character type, of course.
-Unexpected soft spots for some things. What exactly that is can vary, but giving much nicer treatment to something (whether that's feeding birds or taking the time to play with a kid) adds a little feminine touch.
-Talking to the shopkeepers wife. Or, more generally, enquiring after NPCs lives, even if they're not important.
-Focus on mental stats or dexterity. Str and Con are not terribly feminine. The feminine aspects of mental stats tend to be "cleverness" for Int (as opposed to ingenuity), "intuition" for Wis (rather than deep sayings), and "charm" for Cha (although force of personality is also common).
-Practicality. This is rather dependent on the player and who else is playing, but coming up with simpler, more effective, and/or less showy solutions.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-10, 01:09 AM
For example the black knight Iseria, who is defined by her goal to become the greatest swordfighter in existence, who wears a full mechanus plate, and is a dark cleric of Bel.


Well, if she's lurching around under a suit of Mechanus Plate all day, it doesn't really matter what's inside. All anyone's seeing is a bunch of gears and a sword. :smalltongue:


Here's a bit of a reversal: If male Fighters are allowed to flirt with the ever-buxom waitresses, it stands to reason she could flirt (more likely just joking/teasing) with any exceptionally-hunky men populating the bar.

While the men are out drinking and whoring, she can drink and whore too, or stay in her room knitting socks, or go shopping for accessories like jewelry/shoes/dresses/purses (Get a Handy Haversack, and refluff it as a really nice purse :smallbiggrin:). It could be amusing to see her rifle through her purse and pull out something useful like a grappling hook or a pair of sundark goggles. She might also read a romance novel in her spare time. Even better if it's a fantasy romance, one which uses the modern world as a "fantasy" setting.

hiryuu
2012-08-10, 01:44 AM
This sounds a bit counter intuitive. Because "Delicate" and "pretty" ARE traditionally "feminine" attributes.

Most people would say the only thing feminine about Xena is her beauty.

It just seems more like a notion of "I want to find feminine that doesnt involve makeup and boobs , so im going to throw out the original notions of feminine"

First thing I got shown in my beginning anthropology classes were several Pacific island tribes where "pretty" and "delicate" were masculine traits. Basically the point was that "masculine" and "feminine" are cultural tags that we apply to things, and that change (often dramatically) over time, like pink, which has gone full 180. Look at pictures of men from the 1700s for example. Those are MASCULINE MANLY MEN for their time and the equivalent of a manly frat boy who watches Spike TV and goes to wet t-shirt contests and drives a 4-wheel drive muscle truck and catches crocodiles with his hands.

Pictured: A REAL MAN
http://i481.photobucket.com/albums/rr177/PiafEdith/Habitdeceremonie.jpg
You know this outfit was pink and yellow.

It will all depend on the culture you're trying to emulate. Western European culture? Well, that's great. Which one? What a Frenchman found manly in the 1300s the English tended to call "womanly." All shepherds used to wear smock-frocks and hose regardless of gender. Being dainty with your hands used to be a man thing. Among the Iroquois, being good at math was a feminine trait.

Culture matters. Figure out the culture first.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-08-10, 02:25 AM
It could be amusing to see her rifle through her purse and pull out something useful like a grappling hook or a pair of sundark goggles. She might also read a romance novel in her spare time. Even better if it's a fantasy romance, one which uses the modern world as a "fantasy" setting.

So you're saying a D&D purse is worse than a real-life one since it has to be magic before you can put a grappling hook and rope in there? Tsk. If it's magic you should be able to get a 10-ft ladder in there without breaking a sweat. (Bonus points if you get the thing enchanted so only women will ever be able to find anything in there, a man touches it and mayhem breaks loose.)

As for making a character more feminine. Read this forum without looking at the gender tag on users, can you accurately guess everyones gender? Would you even dare to try?

But I suppose you could add a few quirks that are often considered more female, such as blushing at crude jokes, having soft spots for small defenseless things and so on. But to be honest, as a woman, I'd laugh. (Granted I'm the kind of gal who takes comments about being manly as a compliment.)

In the end, just play the characters the way they want to be played, gender is such a small part of someones total personality that it really doesn't matter much and some characters simply will be less feminine than others.

Loth17
2012-08-10, 04:07 AM
I made a feminine Assassin in an oriental adventures campaign.

She was a rouge/assassin/were-murder of crows who always acted acording to the standards of ladylike behavior (Knowing flower aranging, tea ceramony stuff like that) and thought that killing people for money was just one of her duties as a noblewoman of the scorpion clan and that it wasnt unlady like as long as the kill was quic, clean and left a lovely corpse. (She only used her swarm attack as a last resort and always avoided the face).

On a side note isnt it awsome that noble robes are loose enough to fit leather armor underneath.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-10, 04:25 AM
Loudly announce in-character whenever you have to pee, that will make your female character 100% more convincing than anything else.

Yora
2012-08-10, 05:23 AM
I think this is a justified question. Not just for the specific issue of women in adventuring parties, but actually about anything that is not a generic adventuring campaign.
With my Bronze Age setting, I always end up creating global thieves guilds and large wizard societies with huge libraries, and then have to go back a few steps because it's turning into something completely different than it was supposed to. Or not ending up with elves that are humans with pointy ears, and so on.

I think the main point is, that the goal is not to attempt to create a realistic representation of a woman in an adventuring party, whatever that would be, but to create a plausible appearance of femininity. And I think you pretty much have to be a bit sexst about that, but you can keep it within non-offensive limits. No, of course it does not mean that all woman do X or that only women do X. But I think in all artistic representations, you take a lot of visual and narrative clues that hint at a certain personalty that appears familiar to us. And I think that's good enough.

Here a few ideas for this specific case:
- Even adventurers do not spend their whole time in armor. Traveling outfits would have to be practical, but when you stay for a few days in town or are going to see the local lord while not comming immediately from the battlefield, female characters could very well be wearing whatever is the common outfit for women. We got more than enough police officers, firefighters, rescue workers, and soldiers, who are putting on a dress when the occasion calls for it; this is completely plausible.
- A female character could take the initiative when dealing with women or children, simply because they would probably appear less threatening than the huge guys with the giant axes and scars on their faces.
- I guess in most fantasy societies, even women who become soldiers grew up during their childhood doing girls tasks at their home. Even if they stopped doing all of it when they were 12 and started to learn fighting or magic, they still would have better skill at the basics than the average male adventurer.

DigoDragon
2012-08-10, 06:54 AM
When observing the lady gamers within my group, they don't seem to show any big overt traits of femininity. They tend to be more the little mannerisms, things you have to pay attention to or you might miss it.

Serafina
2012-08-10, 07:21 AM
On the one hand, a female character can be whatever she wants to be, including a heroic, tough, athletic fighter etc.
On the other hand, people tend to associate those traits - and indeed most traits an adventurer can have - as masculine.

My favorite strong female character - because she is strong in a female way, and part of her strength comes from her female traits - is Katara from Avatar.
Her desire to protect others clearly stems from something we associate with femininity - motherly behavior (and she is actually called the mother of her group in one episode). It's more than just "stand between the enemy and my friends", because she also wants to protect them emotionally, given them advice, aid them in achieving their personal goals and generally just be there for them when they need her. That also extends to people outside of her group.
But she can also take charge when needed and is a strong fighter. In addition to being a well-developed, diverse character alongside other female well-developed diverse characters.

A lot of strong female characters are just a male personality in a female body. As others have said, that's not a bad thing - as long as you still make them full, mature and diverse characters.

So please, don't make your character a stereotype. Don't take an existing character and slap on some stereotypical female traits.
If you are not sure how to play a female character, do not overemphasize that she is female. If you do you will just produce a caricature.
Do little things, ideally those that grow organically from the rest of her character. What i said above is an example, it's only a small step from protective to caring and nurturing - yet we associate it with being female. If you instead have a studious, intelligent character you could add a penchant for being neat and orderly, which we also tend to see as feminine. If she is a social chameleon, sneaky or roguish, you can add knowledge about dresses, trneds and makeup - those would help her blend in and are feminine.
Consider other such traits - seductive (strong at negotiating and getting what she wants), emotional manipulator (can be used against enemies), homemaker (strong at organizing things) and so on.

Combine feminine traits with their associated strengths if you want to play a female adventurer.

Cerlis
2012-08-10, 07:30 AM
But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)

Serafina
2012-08-10, 07:39 AM
But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)Look at lots of "strong women" in Hollywood movies. They're just the standard action here, but played by a woman.
Now granted, action movie heroes are generally never well-developed characters, sure - but then don't call a female action movie hero a strong female rolemodel. Of course you shouldn't call male action movie heroes male rolemodels either.

Sorry, bit of a pet-peeve of mine.

Ashtagon
2012-08-10, 08:37 AM
If I asked you to make a "feminine" Paladin, how would you do it?

Joan of Arc?

Assassin? Barbarian? Cleric? Wizard?

Assassin is kinda broad, but... Boudicca the barbarian? Japanese maiko for clerics? Morgan le Fay as wizard?

Remember, female != feminine

Finally, PLEASE, don't make female warriors wear skirts or dresses as standard combat gear, or skin-tight breastplates that hug each breast individually. That's rather blatantly stupid. And certainly no chainmail bikinis.

Yora
2012-08-10, 08:54 AM
The western world lives in a weird time, where gender is not supposed to matter, but it does.

Either you mention traits associated with femininity, and you're sexist. Or you don't mention it, then you're misogynistic.
Of course, both are wrong, but it helps to realize that the public discourse has accidentally created a paradox. Since two opposites can't be true at the same time, it's easy to see that at least one and probably both have significant errors. And that means going a step back and accepting that "making generalizations based on gender are not always sexist" and "being indifferent to aspects of gender does not mean you oppose them".

"Can a woman wear a dress to be percieved as more feminine?" - Yes.
"Does a woman have to wear a dress to be treated as feminine?" - No.

Unfortunately, the field of Gender Studies almost always seems to be about women discussing their own self-perception with other women. Or if you want to be a bit more confrontatial "women legitimizing themselves to themselves". Or if you want to be really offensive "grumpy women ranting about other women who are happy without being grumpy". :smallwink:

But I think all the interesting stuff happens in the middle where masculine and feminine become difficult to clearly seperate. My personal theory of gender is, that we all want people to see us in a certain way, and we also want to reassure us that we really are that way. And we do this displaying traits. The way we dress, the way we talk, the way we move, the oppinions we express, the people we associate with, the food we eat, the way we cut our hair, and so on and on... And a great number, if not most of these traits, are associated with the sexes. A dress is associated with female, a suit is associated with male. In some people, the male associated traits are very dominant, and we consider these people to be masculine. In others the female associated traits are very dominant and we consider these people to be feminine.
I would say a basebal cap is male associated, but simply wearing one does not make a female person appear masculine. There are often still much more very visible traits that are female associated and by far outweigh it. When we see a person who is visible female, we often regard her as "rather masculine", even if the male associated traits are much less dominant than in an average male person. Because it is unexpected and so it stands out more. However, each trait by itself does not tell much, if anything about the persons gender identity. It is the whole of all traits combined, that makes gender.

Now in the case of an RPG character, we could have "plate armor", "a sword", "High strength", "commanding voice", "short patience" as some of the primary traits we have given the character. And all of these traits would be "male associated". Even though we still don't know anything about the characters personalty or gender.
Here are two pictures from fictional characters, and I don't really know any of them very well.
http://images.wikia.com/dragonage/images/1/14/Meridith_Act_2.png http://images5.fanpop.com/image/photos/31400000/lin-biefong-avatar-the-legend-of-korra-31494174-515-900.jpg
But just from the look they appear like all these masculine traits could apply to them.
In fiction, especially in an RPG, we don't have a completely character but are only working with a very small set of traits that become relevant. Which I think is the point of the opening post: All the traits that are relevant to a simple RPG character like this are male associated. However, often we still want the character to appear as a blend of male and female associated traits that represents the concept for the character best. And for that, we need to make some female assocated become relevant to the character in the game. Even though these traits would normally not be relevant.
And I think that is the important point: When we are dealing with fictional characters, highlighting traits in the character does not mean that the traits are essential. Does the character wear a dress or not? It is not essential. This trait by itself doesn't make or break anything, this trait is not a defining part of being a woman or being feminine. And by highlighting it, we are not making such a claim! We are just counterbalancing the male associated traits, that have become disproportionally dominant because they are of great relevance to the medium.

kamikasei
2012-08-10, 09:24 AM
The OP's question is malformed.

You can easily make a "feminine" character by mixing in traits that are coded as feminine by modern standards. Of course, this is likely to feel sexist - because it is. The problem is that you're starting with "a character" and then tacking on femininity - so of course the character's femininity is going to feel superfluous and stereotyped.

Look at Iseria. No, nothing you describe about her sounds particularly feminine. But... none of it sounds particularly masculine, either. The description offered is quite gender-neutral. Problem is that if you presented that description for a male character, it'd sound fine, but you think a female character must be conspicuously female in a way a male character doesn't have to be conspicuously male. It's the "Ms. Pac-Man" thing of "just take a male character with nothing particularly male about him, and stick on a pink bow".

Now, this is a valid problem to face as a roleplayer or as a writer. Male is the default in society so people will read what reasonably ought to be neutral traits as masculine by default. At the same time, "masculine" traits have positive associations while "feminine" traits have negative ones - and positive traits become associated with masculinity while negative traits become associated with femininity - so if you want to make a strong, capable character much of the traits you'll choose will read as masculine simply because they entail strength and capability.

There's no quick fix to this. Starting from this point and saying "how do I make my female characters feminine?" leaves you stuck in the same framework of treating "female" as the marked category - of having, not male and female characters, but "characters" (who are men) and "female characters" (who are either men-with-boobs or sexist stereotypes). What you need to do is consider the culture and setting in which the character developed - where standards of femininity and masculinity may be quite different to your own - and think about how being male or female influenced that development. A female character may have an identical "internal" makeup (in terms of aptitudes, inclinations, etc.) to a male character, but have faced different expectations from family and society growing up, and developed different feelings about herself and her abilities. Maybe she has some "girly" trait that she's free to embrace where a male character might be embarrassed about it - or maybe she's embarrassed about it herself because it gets her dismissed as "just a silly girl". Same for "manly" traits. Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things - they're not just what you are but what you do, and how people interpret what you do.

This isn't something you can do entirely on your own - it require some discussion with your GM to ensure you're both on the same page as to how these things operate in the game's setting. It's also not something you do only for female characters, which is key - the same treatment of "how did this aspect of the character influence development?" applies to male characters as well, or indeed other/nonbinary characters, and has to if you're to avoid simply assembling a character out of cliches.

How would I make a feminine paladin etc.? It'd depend entirely on the setting. How usual or unusual is it for women to take that path in life? What else might she have been expected to do? What is considered feminine or masculine by the people around her? What I'd consider very important to not do would be coming up with a solid character concept I'd be happy to play as male and then adding unnecessary frills or compromising practicality or ability in the name of feminizing the character.

Yora
2012-08-10, 09:27 AM
At the same time, "masculine" traits have positive associations while "feminine" traits have negative ones - and positive traits become associated with masculinity while negative traits become associated with femininity
I think with such a people-hating oppinion, there isn't a solution to anything!

Morithias
2012-08-10, 12:06 PM
The OP's question is malformed.

Snip

Sorry. Maybe I need to do more studies in sociology. I tried to write it as best I could....

kamikasei
2012-08-10, 01:08 PM
Sorry. Maybe I need to do more studies in sociology. I tried to write it as best I could....
Oh, I don't mean you expressed yourself badly. I mean you're asking the wrong question - coming at the problem from the wrong angle. The problem isn't "I can play characters, but how do I play women characters?" Asking it that way sabotages any attempt to properly address the problem. The real problem is "how do I incorporate gender in to a character so that it feels like a real and natural part of their identity rather than something secondary and tacked-on?".

The impression I got from your OP was that you were perfectly well aware of how to make "feminine" characters by playing to standard female stereotypes, but that you didn't want to do that. Well, to escape that trap, you need to back up and take a different initial approach.

Morithias
2012-08-10, 01:51 PM
Oh, I don't mean you expressed yourself badly. I mean you're asking the wrong question - coming at the problem from the wrong angle. The problem isn't "I can play characters, but how do I play women characters?" Asking it that way sabotages any attempt to properly address the problem. The real problem is "how do I incorporate gender in to a character so that it feels like a real and natural part of their identity rather than something secondary and tacked-on?".

The impression I got from your OP was that you were perfectly well aware of how to make "feminine" characters by playing to standard female stereotypes, but that you didn't want to do that. Well, to escape that trap, you need to back up and take a different initial approach.

How very wise. I will use what people have commented on in this thread and do some more research to help me. Thanks for your insight.

As for feminine characters that play to female stereotypes...hmmm.

Well there was obviously the female healer/white mage (done because no one in the group ever played a cleric).

The most famous "Female" character I have if you can call "her" that (changling and all) was a Deathstalker Assassin who was hyperactive and happy-go-lucky (Not sure if she was insane, or just born that way seeing how she murdered a whole cult of Bhaal by the time she was level 3).

Then there was the Antro-scorpion Paladin, who was all about stopping a second world war...her personality was all about finding her lost civilization, but was very "paladin" you know help the innocent, fight evil, etc.

I think you're right, maybe I'm thinking about this wrong...these characters are fairly well made... I mean they're not Tolkien level, but they have personalities...

Thanks for the insight again.

Friv
2012-08-10, 04:56 PM
In traditional patriarchal cultures, "feminine" traits are generally viewed as empathic, submissive, or evasive. "Masculine" traits are generally viewed as stoic, aggressive, or direct. China embodies this in the Yin and Yang concept, but it's pretty prevalent throughout most European and Asian cultures (and maybe African and native cultures too? I'm honestly not as familiar with them).

This is why a male spy is James Bond, whose deception is really just a quick cover for his violent antics, and a female spy is the Black Widow, who couples her fighting skill with exceptional deceit and insight. A masculine warrior is Conan, and a feminine warrior is a ninja. This is also why a lot of tactics get called "dishonorable" in Western culture; because they aren't direct and openly aggressive. It's also the root of the school idea that men beat you up, and women ruin your social standing. One group fights directly, the other indirectly.


Now, if you're in a non-patriarchal society, or a society whose gender roles are differently defined, all of this goes out the window. Studies are notoriously bad at differentiating physical traits from cultural ones, so any attempt to gauge which "masculine" and "feminine" traits are actual, and which are applied, is going to become a clustermess with astonishing speed. But cultural traits have a way of resonating, so even if you're not sexist, you've probably got a subconscious idea that X is the way that most men or women behave.

Morithias
2012-08-10, 05:00 PM
Snip

Yeah and the fact that D&D doesn't have any real culture of it's own...ow, my head hurts.

WarKitty
2012-08-10, 05:15 PM
I suspect part of the issue is that a lot of traits necessary to an adventurer are considered masculine (and a disproportionate number of feminine aggressive traits are considered evil). So a female adventurer comes across as more masculine.


Finally, PLEASE, don't make female warriors wear skirts or dresses as standard combat gear, or skin-tight breastplates that hug each breast individually. That's rather blatantly stupid. And certainly no chainmail bikinis.[/COLOR]

Ironically, a lot of historical armor involves skirts. On both sexes.

Reluctance
2012-08-10, 05:32 PM
Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things

{{scrubbed}}

It's also completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. The question isn't the innateness of gender differences. (Which is way off topic and a little too close to kindling for my taste.) The question is how to make a character who is read by (presumably) modern western earthbound humans as feminine, without either being a faceless cipher with some boobs added for cosmetic flair, or a gross stereotype. That's entirely about characterization tips.

Serafina
2012-08-10, 05:50 PM
Actually, yes - a lot of things we consider masculine and feminine are purely cultural.

External expressions of gender are - clothes, makeup, hobbies. Some cultures consider it manly to be good at drawing, cooking or even sewing, while others consider it feminine. Others have dresses and skirts for men and clothing we consider masculine for women.

But it goes beyond skin-deep. Even the "women are more submissive"-part is likely not innately female - while it holds true in major cultures, it doesn't in smaller ones.

It is really really hard to pin down what exactly is biologically anchored male or female behavior. Not everything is cultural, obviously - but way more than you may think is.


Now, does that mean that indivduals can't have traits we consider masculine or feminine innately? No - but that doesn't mean that they are innately male or female because they have those traits - it just means that they have those traits, and that we consider them to be either due to our culture.



Gender identity is merely the sum of all parts, and certainly based on culture. Realizing that is in my opinion an important step to making a non-stereotypical character of either gender - because it enables you to mix up masculine and feminine traits without presenting the wrong gender identity to others.

kamikasei
2012-08-10, 06:43 PM
Spoilering my response to Reluctance, as it's OT but I don't want to let that slide.

I double dog dare you to stop by the LGBT+ thread and say this. Or are you going to argue that trannies are agents sent by the patriarchy to reinforce the gender binary?
Firstly: what the hell, seriously? Aside from what a gross misrepresentation of and overreaction to what I actually said that is, why are you bringing transphobic slurs into the discussion and then telling me off for being off topic and "kindling"?

Secondly: I avoid Friendly Banter most of the time, but you're quite welcome to link this there and invite anyone in the LGBT thread who finds the suggestion that gender isn't simple to be objectionable to PM me; I don't really expect you'll find that many.

Since you cut off your quote of me at exactly the point that makes it look worst, let me repeat the whole thing for context:

Gender, masculinity/femininity aren't simply innate things - they're not just what you are but what you do, and how people interpret what you do.
In other words: gender, and especially masculinity and femininity, are not only innate properties of a person. They are not just what someone is. They are also what someone does and how they're perceived by others. A person may tend toward some behaviours and avoid others precisely because of how their culture codes those behaviours as masculine or feminine, and how that lines up with their own identification and desired presentation. You can't simply say "this character is female, so she should have some feminine traits, such as X, Y and Z". You have to consider what messages she's received from society about her femininity during the formation of her personality and what things about herself she may have attempted to cultivate vs. what she may have preferred to downplay or suppress as a result of that. Otherwise you end up with precisely the problem you mention here:

It's also completely irrelevant to the thread at hand. The question isn't the innateness of gender differences. (Which is way off topic and a little too close to kindling for my taste.) The question is how to make a character who is read by (presumably) modern western earthbound humans as feminine, without either being a faceless cipher with some boobs added for cosmetic flair, or a gross stereotype. That's entirely about characterization tips.
It's entirely relevant, in the context in which and to the extent that I brought it up. The OP is playing in his own cultural context, but playing a character in their own, different culture (which is likely a mix of historical and fictional ideas, modern biases, and adaptations for compatibility with modern sensibilities). Both of those contexts have to be borne in mind if you want to craft a character who plausibly expresses her gender in her own setting, and is also read accordingly by the audience around the table. Since that was precisely my point - "deciding the character is male or female, masculine or feminine, isn't enough - you have to think about how their culture views those things, and how they feel about and react to those views" - the extent to which gender is simply innate is in fact very relevant to it.

ETA: I should not that I'm not an expert on gender identity/expression/presentation or trans* issues and wouldn't want to seem like I'm trying to present myself as such - I'm just trying to relay what little understanding I have managed to pick up on this topic. The above is intended to be as relevant to this topic, not a general overview of "how to gender" or anything like it.

Reluctance
2012-08-10, 07:09 PM
ETA: I should not that I'm not an expert on gender identity/expression/presentation or trans* issues and wouldn't want to seem like I'm trying to present myself as such - I'm just trying to relay what little understanding I have managed to pick up on this topic. The above is intended to be as relevant to this topic, not a general overview of "how to gender" or anything like it.

My beef is that the party line your understanding comes from led to the sort of attitude in the phrase I used. Wording, slur, and all. I tend to get pissy when information from unreliable sources is touted as truth.

More on topic, but spoliered for being a little off.
How often are male stock characters treated as "doing it wrong"? If the only way to do female characters "right" involves an in-depth exploration of their culture and personal history, people will tend to stick with males simply because they can't be arsed to do all that work for a bit part, or because they want to do their character in broad strokes and fill things in as they get a sense of the character in play.

Which is why I'd rather focus on good ways to either make decent feminine tropes, or to feminize existing tropes without making a mess of the whole thing. High-minded ideology gets in the way of practical work.

Cerlis
2012-08-10, 07:10 PM
Look at lots of "strong women" in Hollywood movies. They're just the standard action here, but played by a woman.
Now granted, action movie heroes are generally never well-developed characters, sure - but then don't call a female action movie hero a strong female rolemodel. Of course you shouldn't call male action movie heroes male rolemodels either.

Sorry, bit of a pet-peeve of mine.

Hmmm, first thing that comes to mind is the army chick from Aliens, and she seemed very womanly to me.

kamikasei
2012-08-10, 07:34 PM
My beef is that the party line your understanding comes from led to the sort of attitude in the phrase I used. Wording, slur, and all. I tend to get pissy when information from unreliable sources is touted as truth.
No. It doesn't. You are making a mistaken assumption about my "party line" and the source of my information. Most of what understanding of these issues I have comes from a trans female writer who has faced the "trans women are agents of the patriarchy!" crap herself. Look, if this is a sensitive topic for you on which you've had to deal with a lot of crap yourself before, then I'm sorry that I touched a nerve - but I really cannot see the conclusion you've jumped to as justified, nor your response as proportionate.

I want to be clear as to just what you're disagreeing with me on. Is it your view that gender and masculinity/femininity are simply and entirely innate, with no cultural or social component at all? And if so, are you really of the view that I couldn't possibly think the question is more complex than that without being a transphobic jackass? Because I'd find that contention quite remarkable (if you do back the former, surely you're aware it's not uncontroversial even among trans* people?), and have to wonder if you didn't just read "are not simply innate" as "simply are not innate" in my first response. If we do have a real disagreement here, though, perhaps it would be better taken to PMs?

More on topic, but spoliered for being a little off.
How often are male stock characters treated as "doing it wrong"? If the only way to do female characters "right" involves an in-depth exploration of their culture and personal history, people will tend to stick with males simply because they can't be arsed to do all that work for a bit part, or because they want to do their character in broad strokes and fill things in as they get a sense of the character in play.

Which is why I'd rather focus on good ways to either make decent feminine tropes, or to feminize existing tropes without making a mess of the whole thing. High-minded ideology gets in the way of practical work.
(Not spoilered, because it seems plenty on-topic to me.)

That's actually a fair point. Although I've gone on at some length in responding to you, what I'm saying does not necessitate a huge investment of extra time and work to create a female character than a male one. It simply requires keeping context in mind rather than treating femininity as a tacked-on extra separate from "a character", to help ensure that you create characters who are female, not "female characters" where they're either reskinned males or "about" being female. My point is also that a female adventurer in a D&D-ish setting should be expressing her femininity in a way that makes sense for that context, not just the context of the players.

Conners
2012-08-10, 07:59 PM
Hmmm, first thing that comes to mind is the army chick from Aliens, and she seemed very womanly to me. She is an all-time-favourite, too.

Ravens_cry
2012-08-10, 08:02 PM
But what is a "male personality in a female body"? Do these actually exist?(outside of horribly played characters)
In extreme cases, that could be what transsexualism is, I think.

dps
2012-08-11, 05:04 PM
I suppose you could just go with what Jack Nicholson's writer character in As Good As It Gets said when asked how he wrote female characters so well: "I think of a man, then remove reason and accountability."



:smallbiggrin:

mcv
2012-08-11, 05:23 PM
Don't focus on making your character feminine, focus on making her interesting.

Some people say men and women are completely different, but they're not. People are different. On average men might be more like this, and women more like that, but adventurers are never average. They are exceptional. And they're not exceptional by being male or female, they're exceptional by being who they are, and being male or female is just one tiny aspect of that.

To make a character interesting, it's worth subverting or otherwise addressing some cliches. And in how you do that, you could also address the character's gender.

Here's an example from a long-running Earthdawn campaign: I played a human female warrior and at some point the GM encouraged us to pick a Passion (basically a god) that we were closest to. For a warrior, the cliche is of course to pick a god of warrior, or some other highly masculine aspect. I picked the Passion of healing, hearth and home. This worked out very well, seeping into various other aspects, and eventually she became a Questor (a sort of priest) of that Passion.

In Earthdawn, Warrior isn't the only combat class (discipline). Skyraiders tend to be all about aggression, Swordmasters all about showing off their skill, and Warriors tend to be about pragmatism, protecting the group, serving the needs of the group, overcoming the obstacles the group faces, etc. How much you really make of that is pretty much up to the player, but I tried to mix that with he compassion of her Passion. She'd gladly risk her life to save a dysfunctional group member who hated her, she'd viciously attack any enemies of the group, while trying not to make any personal enemies herself, and she wouldn't hesitate to put herself in the way of danger in order to protect or save her group members. At the same time she was very self-sufficient; she could take more damage than even the Troll Skyraider, she was faster and stealthier than anyone except the Elf Archer, she could leap around the battlefield dealing terrible amounts of damage, but she always tried to use her mobility to protect the weaker members of the group (two spell casters and an archer) and save them from the trouble they invariably got themselves into. She lacked the social ability to be the social heart of the group, but I never had the impression she wasn't female enough. Even if a male character could also have done all those things.

Othesemo
2012-08-11, 05:40 PM
Honestly, I try to avoid incorporating gender into personality. Character, perhaps, but not personality.

Essentially, I come up with an idea for personality, then I chose which gender I want the character to be (often by flipping a coin). There are unmasculine men and unfeminine women; any character can belong to any gender.

Generally, I find that attempts to incorporate gender into roleplaying (beyond the biological) end up fairly contrived, though that might just be because I'm not a very good actor.

huttj509
2012-08-11, 07:04 PM
She is an all-time-favourite, too.

I remember hearing that when Ripley was being written for Alien, the writers didn't know if the character would be male or female. This kept out any perceived need to duct tape some "femininity" onto the character. She is who she is, which is part of why she works so well.

People are people. Even the female people. Let's see, chased by a monster. Fall down and get eaten, or hijack a powersuit cargo loader. Which is a better survival trait?

Of course, I'm generally only considered a "manly man" if the beard gives extra points, so I might be wondering how to make my characters feel more "masculine."

DontEatRawHagis
2012-08-11, 08:55 PM
One of my friends was helping me with a game I was writing. She gave me a few pointers on how to write a female character. The concept for the character was supposed to be a soldier/mechanic for a mercenary group.

The Tips:

Less likely to use brute force.
More likely to weigh the pros and cons before acting.
Will attack when they can get away with it or catch the person off guard.
Not likely to fight fair.
Don't have her have a female assistant or else people will think she is a lesbian.(Her mom gave me that advice)
More likely to use subterfuge.


As far as feminine characters in action movies, one of the soldiers in Starship Troopers comes to mind. Her entire reason for joining the military was so she could get a license to have children. Sadly she dies halfway through the movie.

Arbane
2012-08-12, 12:45 AM
I remember hearing that when Ripley was being written for Alien, the writers didn't know if the character would be male or female. This kept out any perceived need to duct tape some "femininity" onto the character.

Except for the part where she spends the last act of the movie running around in her underwear, I presume. :smallamused:

Ashtagon
2012-08-12, 04:17 AM
Except for the part where she spends the last act of the movie running around in her underwear, I presume. :smallamused:

Works (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WalkingShirtlessScene) for (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShirtlessScene) that (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CarpetOfVirility) too (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HollywoodActionHero).