So...... Broken Spells? (And how to fix them.)(3.P)

[rollforeigninit]

I read these boards quite a lot and it seems to me that the consensus is that the most broken spells are the Summoning line and the Polymorph line. PF did a semi-decent job of nerfing Poly somewhat (they give bonuses rather than wholesale replace ability scores) but summoning seems to be the worse offender anyways. I understand the power of just bringing in beings to cast whatever ya need. Perhaps I misunderstand how it all works. Is it Summon Monster & it's ilk that are op or simply all summoning magic at all? Has anyone experimented with more of a binding spell chain rather than the more generic summoning tables? How do you guys fix the conjurer problem? I don't mean play a Summoner.

As an aside, how does Summon Monster work, anyways? Is it a random Celestial Badger from Somewhere random? Or is it more of a shadow or copy of a creature from elsewhere? If it is an actual creature/monster than does it remember the summoning & is it banished when it dies?

[Boci]

Planar binding are the broken spells, not the SM line. As for fixing it, the gentleman's agreement is the simplest, since it is a really cool spell that has a lot of potential to spice up the game. But if that doesn't work...the best is probably to have a visage of the monster sent, then if the they agree to the terms they allow themselves to be summoned (it becomes a spell that only targets willing creatures).

[rollforeigninit]

It would also encourage roleplaying and the investiture of skill points in Diplomacy & the like. It might make sense for the caster to actually have to Contact Other Plane or some such to negotiate terms & such. If it's an OP spell then Needing Magic Circle & Contact Other Plane don't seem like such a bad idea.

[ericgrau]

It is a badger plucked from heaven itself. It cannot die while on the material plane, but instead is reformed in 24 hours if slain.

[rollforeigninit]

It is a badger plucked from heaven itself. It cannot die, but instead is reformed in 24 hours if slain.

But does it remember the trip? Does the trip take actual time?

[ericgrau]

I would assume it's instant just like teleportation or plane shifting is. I always assumed it remembers its visit. But who knows. Variations on summoning rules can do interesting things to campaigns.

[Boci]

It would also encourage roleplaying and the investiture of skill points in Diplomacy & the like. It might make sense for the caster to actually have to Contact Other Plane or some such to negotiate terms & such. If it's an OP spell then Needing Magic Circle & Contact Other Plane don't seem like such a bad idea.

So your proposed nerf is:

1. Changing it from an opposed charisma check to a diplomacy check

2. Requiring Contact Other Plane to be cast first.

I don't think it will work. You've increased the cost, but without some form of the gentleman's agreement the combo is still OP.

[ericgrau]

The main thing is to disallow poorly planned high CR low HD forms like war trolls. Besides that all you really need are players who aren't trying to abuse the game with infinite wish calling chains.

Then the true problem that remains for most casual groups is bookkeeping. Make sure you have players figure out all stats for any summoned/called/polymorph creature before the session starts not during. Bookmark or photocopy their summons, do the math on polymorph, etc.

I think it's a terrible shame that PF removed polymorph because of the creative non-abusive utility ways you can use them. They mostly reduced them to combat spells with a little bit of movement capability.

[rollforeigninit]

I was just brainstorming really. I'm totally down with a gentleman's agreement. It's easier. However, I'm a fairly lawful type person so I like it kinda codified. There are dozens of ways to discourage abuse. I'm fine with there being some risk to the spell. In fact, more of an official long-term contract appeals to me. Most outsiders have something of a CoC that they should (IMHO) be following and they should balk at casters who are just using them as wish spamming fodder. (In my campaigns, however, wish is less of an issue as it is more of the traditional "I Wish........" it loses the auto-spell emulation aspect and the easy ability boosting. DM's are encouraged to creatively interpret Wish (and Miracle.)

[Eldariel]

The biggest problem with Planar Binding spells is this line:
"You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you."

There's absolutely no reason for this to exist. There are already spells to dominate creatures; Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell that comes tacked free on Planar Binding at the price of a simple Charisma-check. Furthermore, it's an Enchantment not Conjuration, but Planar Binding bypasses all the Enchantment-immunities with its stupid language. Boci suggests change it but I suggest cut the middle man; remove the whole damn passage. The spell doesn't need rules to compel the creature into service; that's not Binding's function!

There's absolutely no reason a creature bound could be compelled into service with the same spell. That's what a whole list of social skills and other spells, particularly the whole school of Enchantment, are for. Remove that paragraph and suddenly Planar Bindings are awesome but perfectly fair; to stop the creature from backstabbing you, you need to somehow control it or make it a deal it wants to keep. The way it should be. Not a free Dominate Monster; that's just a no-go. Same should happen with Gate, btw; there's absolutely no reason for the "compelled into service for Caster Level Rounds" mode and that's ridiculously overpowered. Gate is a gate; it's capable of bringing things over but what you do with those things is your problem, not its. Gate + Free Dominate should be an epic dual school mind-affecting spell that offers a save.


And Polymorphs, yeah, Pathfinder did a decent job of toning them down tho they're kinda not-so-special now and it's very hard to actually do some of the classic fantasy "curse something into something else permanently" moves without it being very clearly "something transformed".

While at it, limit some abilities of creatures to only be usable out of their own free will because they're really powers granted to them by their planar nature and those are not usable under coercion since that alters the nature. Or something. There's no reason SU Wishes should be grantable when forced; that's certainly not their intent. So make Efreeti unable to grant them under coercion.

The rules need to remember that Efreeti aren't the biggest baddest things in the game in D&D; there are things capable of controlling them so their abilities should be planned accordingly. This slipped by for somebody while making the rules. There's already the XP cost ban but that only covers Summoning spells. Same should obviously apply to e.g. Glabrezu and Pit Fiends and anything that's easily usable as a medium for getting free normally superexpensive stuff.

[rollforeigninit]

The biggest problem with Planar Binding spells is this line:
"You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you."

There's absolutely no reason for this to exist. There are already spells to dominate creatures; Dominate Monster is a 9th level spell that comes tacked free on Planar Binding at the price of a simple Charisma-check. Furthermore, it's an Enchantment not Conjuration, but Planar Binding bypasses all the Enchantment-immunities with its stupid language. Boci suggests change it but I suggest cut the middle man; remove the whole damn passage. The spell doesn't need rules to compel the creature into service; that's not Binding's function!

There's absolutely no reason a creature bound could be compelled into service with the same spell. That's what a whole list of social skills and other spells, particularly the whole school of Enchantment, are for. Remove that paragraph and suddenly Planar Bindings are awesome but perfectly fair; to stop the creature from backstabbing you, you need to somehow control it or make it a deal it wants to keep. The way it should be. Not a free Dominate Monster; that's just a no-go. Same should happen with Gate, btw; there's absolutely no reason for the "compelled into service for Caster Level Rounds" mode and that's ridiculously overpowered. Gate is a gate; it's capable of bringing things over but what you do with those things is your problem, not its. Gate + Free Dominate should be an epic dual school mind-affecting spell that offers a save.


And Polymorphs, yeah, Pathfinder did a decent job of toning them down tho they're kinda not-so-special now and it's very hard to actually do some of the classic fantasy "curse something into something else permanently" moves without it being very clearly "something transformed".

While at it, limit some abilities of creatures to only be usable out of their own free will because they're really powers granted to them by their planar nature and those are not usable under coercion since that alters the nature. Or something. There's no reason SU Wishes should be grantable when forced; that's certainly not their intent. So make Efreeti unable to grant them under coercion.

The rules need to remember that Efreeti aren't the biggest baddest things in the game in D&D; there are things capable of controlling them so their abilities should be planned accordingly. This slipped by for somebody while making the rules. There's already the XP cost ban but that only covers Summoning spells. Same should obviously apply to e.g. Glabrezu and Pit Fiends and anything that's easily usable as a medium for getting free normally superexpensive stuff.

Quite a good idea. It also means that conjuration specialists have a hard time cause they need Abjuration & Enchantment. :smallbiggrin: I like it. It also means Sorcs are generally gonna be better than Wizards just from the better Cha. (Assuming they invest in Diplomacy.)

[Gamer Girl]

As an aside, how does Summon Monster work, anyways? Is it a random Celestial Badger from Somewhere random? Or is it more of a shadow or copy of a creature from elsewhere? If it is an actual creature/monster than does it remember the summoning & is it banished when it dies?

Rules wise, it just does.

So take your pick:

1.The summoned creature is not a 'real' creature, but is a shadow/echo/copy/fax/e-mail of a real creature type. It comes from nothing and returns to nothing.

2.You are summoning a dead creature(but not an undead one, per say). You are briefly 'waking up' a dead creature spirit that lives on another plane(for most animals this would be the Beastlands in the Wheel Cosmology) and giving them a 'real' body and 'life' again, for a couple minutes.

3.You are simply summoning a creature from another plane. It could be a simple catch and grab, where the spell just randomly grabs the creature. But I always like the 'waiting list' idea, where some creature wait in 'summoming waiting rooms' to be summoned. For example if an Efferti committed a crime like smuggling ice water he might be sentenced to '10 years of enforced hard summoning to the Prime'. You could say they don't remember the trip...but it's way, way, way more fun and dramatic if the creature can remember.

You might also want to check out 'summoning a single creature' in the DMG.