Ice Slick spell

[Yorae]

I came across this spell today and thought "oh, hey, neat, cleric grease!"

However, when I began to read up on it a bit, I was a little confused - what is the DC for the balance check that must be made to prevent falling prone? Do we ignore the "Saving throw:" line? It's "see text", but the text doesn't mention a savings throw at all.

In your opinion, is it as strong as grease?

[Darrin]

I came across this spell today and thought "oh, hey, neat, cleric grease!"

However, when I began to read up on it a bit, I was a little confused - what is the DC for the balance check that must be made to prevent falling prone? Do we ignore the "Saving throw:" line? It's "see text", but the text doesn't mention a savings throw at all.

In your opinion, is it as strong as grease?

Stronger. First, the area of effect is four times larger. And second, the wording of the spell leaves less wiggle room for rules lawyering. Because grease triggers a Ref save and not a Balance check when it's initially cast, and some people argue that you're not flat-footed until you actually have to make a Balance check, it can be argued that you're not really balancing while flat-footed unless you actually try to move through the grease at half-speed. Ice slick removes this argument, since you have to make a Balance check when it's first cast under your feet.

As far as the DC, "ice or other slippery surface" is given a DC 10 on page 17 and page 91 of the DMG, and on page 21 of Frostburn.

(Druids get a slightly different version, path of frost, in Dragon Magic. Unfortunately, the area of effect is much more restricted, and they completely butchered the distinction between a skill check and a Ref save, so it's not clear whether Ref negates or you have to make a Balance check.)

[Yorae]

Having not used grease all that much, is that really the better of its two qualities, that it makes things flat-footed, rather than making them fall down? It seems highly likely that an enemy would easily make the check for Ice Slick and then just leave the area and not be bothered by it at all.

[eggs]

Sneak attack vulnerability is great, but the Rogue probably has a way to force that anyway. But falling down is a pretty big deal. Quite a few targets have something like a 30-60% chance of failing each balance check (almost no monsters have the skill), and the check has to be made every time a creature moves and each time it's attacked.

Cast Grease on a target, allow an easy save against falling (it probably won't take, but maybe); on the rogue/party blender's initiative, force the target to make 3 to 7 more coin tosses against falling (each one with some sneak attack thrown onto it); then, if the target's still up and doesn't want to eat another round of sneak attack, force one more coin toss.

If the caster is in control of the situation and can get all the relevant initiative and tactical issues worked out, even a target with 75% success rate on the balance check has a very good chance of being an easy, immobile and prone target by the end of the round.

[Darrin]

Having not used grease all that much, is that really the better of its two qualities, that it makes things flat-footed, rather than making them fall down? It seems highly likely that an enemy would easily make the check for Ice Slick and then just leave the area and not be bothered by it at all.

The point of the spell (either grease or ice slick) is to render an opponent flat-footed and thus make them vulnerable to sneak attack. Even if your target makes his balance check, if he doesn't have 5 ranks in Balance (and I think 100% of all MM1-5 creatures have 0 ranks in Balance), he's flat-footed. With ice slick, there's absolutely no arguement that your target is not balancing on a slippery surface: he made a balance check when the spell was cast. Grease has some wiggle-room because it calls for a Ref save rather than a Balance check (although functionally they are checking for the same thing: did you slip and fall down?). That being said, I believe most everyone plays with grease causing a flat-footed condition as soon as it's cast because most agree it was intended to work that way, and it bogs down the speed of play to argue otherwise.

The other effect of slippery surfaces is they are treated as difficult terrain, which means it costs double movement to move through. In this respect, ice slick is also superior, since it covers a 20' square rather than a 10' square. Against a medium-sized opponent, a typical grease slick will have at least two edges where your target can step out of the grease without having to make another Balance check. With ice slick, you can surround your opponent with slippery surfaces, forcing at least one more Balance check.

[Downysole]

Just remember that if your target has 5 or more ranks in balance (rare, I know), they are not going to be flat footed while balancing.

Prone actually has some perks, such as having +4 AC against those pesky ranged sneak attacks your rogue was planning to throw. I would prefer to have my targets slipping and sliding opposed to on the floor.

[Ziegander]

The point of the spell (either grease or ice slick) is to render an opponent flat-footed and thus make them vulnerable to sneak attack.

I'd say that this is an extremely narrow view of the spell's function. I can tell you that, in multiple parties without Rogues, I've used Grease to great effect. Knocking even a single, powerful enemy prone over and over again is very powerful, and I've used it to knock two or three enemies prone in one go. Against dumb creatures with low Reflex and poor Balance (lots of creatures), Grease can keep enemies prone for multiple rounds in a row. And against melee characters, that's a nasty debuff. I recall casting Grease on an Iron Golem at 4th level. Iron Golem hit the deck and stayed there long enough for my party to run away.

[Downysole]

I'd say that this is an extremely narrow view of the spell's function. I can tell you that, in multiple parties without Rogues, I've used Grease to great effect. Knocking even a single, powerful enemy prone over and over again is very powerful, and I've used it to knock two or three enemies prone in one go. Against dumb creatures with low Reflex and poor Balance (lots of creatures), Grease can keep enemies prone for multiple rounds in a row. And against melee characters, that's a nasty debuff. I recall casting Grease on an Iron Golem at 4th level. Iron Golem hit the deck and stayed there long enough for my party to run away.

Hunh...no spell resistance because it's conjuring the grease. Very witty.

[Ziegander]

Hunh...no spell resistance because it's conjuring the grease. Very witty.

Thank you. :smallsmile:

But, hey, Wizards are supposed to be smart. That's the kind of thing they ought to excel at, yes? :smallwink:

EDIT: But, yes, I should have said, "I recall casting Grease *against* an Iron Golem," rather than, "on an Iron Golem." The point still stands that Grease, and spells like it, is awesome not because of granting Rogues "free" sneak attack, but because it is awesome.