Dragons of the Great Game (formerly Alternate Dragons)

[Kuulvheysoon]

Has anybody ever used any of the alternative Dragon options, like the ones presented in Dragon Magic, or used the xorvintaal template?

I've been thinking of using these, the xorvintaal template in particular. Any opinions abound? How much worse is a dragon once it gives up it's spellcasting and SR (which it can reclaim with a feat, thank you Draconomicon) in exchange for the xorvintaal abilities?

[Runestar]

Never tried the xoorvintaal template personally, but I feel the loss of spellcasting would be a massive loss in power, because pure-melee brutes are really the easiest kind of foes to overcome at higher lvs (case in point - the tarrasque). Said template probably works best on the white dragon - it has the weakest spellcasting, and so loses the least from the template's drawbacks.

That said, if your party isn't really into optimisation, then it should still offer a decent challenge while letting the dragon do what a dragon ought to do best - rend its foes apart with claw and teeth and breath. :smallamused:

[Fable Wright]

I will agree that it significantly decreases the power of a dragon- if just for the sole reason that dragons can't use Wraithstrike + Power Attack against anyone who closes to melee range. However, they are still a huge threat for a party- they aren't just melee brutes, they have high damage breath weapons, the ability to summon high level characters to a fight, powerful abilities to disrupt spellcasting, swift action Sonic damage, and UMD as a racial skill to dispel pesky energy immunities and even use Wands of Wraithstrike if you really, really hate your players. All in all, it degrades dragons from TPK Incarnate God-Lizards to Country-Razing Monsters of Legend. All in all, it balances them more for their CR, and gives them a feel closer to what the original designers were probably going for.

@Runestar: Melee threats are still dangerous at high levels. The reason that the Tarrasque is viewed as a pushover is because it can't fly, and it can't deal with incorporeal creatures. Dragons have some of the fastest flying in the game and the ability to deal with incorporeal creatures easily, even without spellcasting. Xorvintaal dragons are still definitely challenging for players to handle.

[Runestar]

I was just rereading through my "Bastion of Lost Souls" module and thought that it might be cool if Ashardalon was restatted to a great wyrm red with the xorvintaal and ravening templates (and either glossing over its half-fiend aspect or representing it in the form of abyssal heritage feats).

Better than nuking the party with with a caster lv40 blasphemy in the 1st round of combat at any rate. :smallamused:

[Kuulvheysoon]

Ravening template? I'll admit, that one escapes me at the moment.

[Randomguy]

You could put the Xorvintaal template on a Planar Dragon, and then it doesn't give up all that much.

[Kuulvheysoon]

You could put the Xorvintaal template on a Planar Dragon, and then it doesn't give up all that much.

I'm not sure if they even qualify, to tell you the truth. The xorvintaal template specifies that the dragon loses all access to their innate spellcasting capacity (and SR). But how can you lose something that you don't actually possess?

[Hawkings]

Can't say much for the mechanics but I ran a Xorvintaal plot in a campaign once, and all of my players were excited to try and best a Dragon at it's own game.

The Xorvintaal Dragon kind of becomes the king of a chess game so they're not supposed to fight, the other pieces are.

The Dragon's minions get special powers including the ability to not die when killed and instead teleport back to the Dragons lair, which is perfect for keeping a BBEG alive even if the players defeat him. Other than that having a few powerful mage's around that obey the Dragon's commands could make a Dragon even more powerful, albeit indirectly.

I warned the players OOC before accepting their Dragons offer to join the great game that since they were directly challenging Dragons in their own game of wits, it'd be even more difficult than normal adventuring. This worked out great because I could practically throw Tuckers Kobolds in front of them and say "Well they're the Dragons minions, of course they're more crafty than normal Kobolds!" without a problem.

So even though the Dragon does sacrifice a lot of magical power, he gained the ability to control minions to do his dirty work while he sips tea on a giant gold pile in his secret lair far away from any danger. They're like the Thrallherds of Dragons.

[nedz]

There is no reason why you could not use the Xorvintaal concept with normal dragons. There are other ways of achieving most of their powers, e.g. spells.

[God Imperror]

Has anybody ever used any of the alternative Dragon options, like the ones presented in Dragon Magic, or used the xorvintaal template?

I've been thinking of using these, the xorvintaal template in particular. Any opinions abound? How much worse is a dragon once it gives up it's spellcasting and SR (which it can reclaim with a feat, thank you Draconomicon) in exchange for the xorvintaal abilities?

I have used both the dragon options in draconomicon / dragon magic and the xorvintaal template on a couple of dragons. They add personality to the dragon and can be used as a literary resource.

One dragon might use one of its agents to contact/hire (probably through intermediates) the PCs to search for a certain magic item which is in possession of a Xorvintaal agent of another dragon. While the party adventures a third Xorvintaal dragon pretty young learns of their plan and follows them planning on joining the final confrontation, if the party is victorious the dragon would defeat them and claim the magic item, if the party looses he will fake that he comes to aid the xorvintaal agent paving his way to an allegiance.

Only through the young dragon (who is quite bold) can the PCs learn that they are pawns in the great game, realization might come but as an advice try to make it difficult for them to realize before they can fight xorvintaal dragons (even if it is a really difficult encounter).

[Runestar]

You could put the Xorvintaal template on a Planar Dragon, and then it doesn't give up all that much.

I think you probably have to increase their cr ad-hoc to compensate, roughly at +1cr per special ability gained. Else, consider the pyroclastic dragon, which is essentially a red dragon sans spellcasting. He would lose absolutely nothing from the template!

[CthulhuEatYou]

If you're willing, you could give the dragon class levels in the Dragon Ravager class from Bestiary of Krynn (Dragonlance), which empowers its breath attack a heck of a lot and lets it rage, which would be considerably more powerful for a Xorvintaal dragon than a normal dragon.

[Fable Wright]

Ravening template? I'll admit, that one escapes me at the moment.

Page 77 of Dragon Magazine 313. It's in with a bunch of other Dragon Psychosis, which I admit, could certainly make dragon encounters much more... interesting. I'm now beginning to imagine Xorvintaal where not only do the dragons all have the Xorvintaal template, they're all afflicted by a different psychosis. It would certainly make all of the dragons more memorable, at least...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I must admit I'm intrigued. Where is this Xorvintaal template printed?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Monster Manual V or IV I think

[Randomguy]

Monster Manual V or IV I think

It's from MMV.

[Answerer]

I'm not sure if they even qualify, to tell you the truth. The xorvintaal template specifies that the dragon loses all access to their innate spellcasting capacity (and SR). But how can you lose something that you don't actually possess?
You're conflating effects with prerequisites.

An effect that causes you to lose something does not automatically imply a prerequisite to have that thing. In every case where you must have that thing to lose, it is listed separately as a prerequisite.

You might have some wiggle room if it explicitly states that you "trade" one thing for another – for example, Alternate Class Features have an effect of "replacing" a class feature – which you must have to gain any benefit.

But if it lists two separate effects – lose one thing, gain another – having the first to lose is not a prereq to gaining the second unless explicitly stated.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I must admit I'm intrigued. Where is this Xorvintaal template printed?


Monster Manual V or IV I think


It's from MMV.

Apparently, WotC also released it as an excerpt over here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070710a)

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm actually using the Xorvintaal template for all the dragons in my E6 game, both because I don't want the party munchkin (read: he's not the party optimizer) to try to beg me to include dragons with item creation feats, and also so I can include dragons of a significant age without completely obliterating the party (because I, and by extension many of the dragons I would play, would, at the very least, know what Scintillating Scales is). Of course, dragons in my game are also going to be a VERY late-game thing (because dragons in the world are rare and don't care to interrupt the long-standing pact of nonaggression between humans and dragons), and because their influence is going to be mostly felt behind-the-scenes (meaning they will likely find Exarchs long before they find actual dragons).