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DigoDragon
2012-08-10, 08:46 AM
I'm brainstorming a campaign concept for a possible Star Trek game. Currently no system picked, I'm working on the fluff for now and thought to share the idea in case anyone got inspired to poke at it some more.

One of my gamers is a big Trek fan and has written many fanfic stories, includding a story where Federation scientists built a bomb that could destroy an object in several parallel dimensions at once. This weapon was used to obliterate a potential evil civilization from developing a dimensional gateway.



So, the premise--
The campaign is set in the late "Next Gen" time period. The PCs will be fresh graduate cadets from Star Fleet being assigned to a new science ship bound for a survey of a black hole in the Beta Quadrant. Upon reaching their destination, the ship is attacked by an unknown alien ship of an advanced design. The alien's intent is capture.
The captain orders the ship to swing around the black hole as cover and then jump to maximum possible warp. Using technobable, the damage sustained during the fight allowed a time dialation effect when they warp, pushing the crew X number of years into the future.

In this future, the main civs (Federation, Klingon, & Romulan) have all collapsed in some kind of mass invasion, down to pre-FTL levels. A few civilizations that were once known to be pre-FTL or who only recently had discovered warp technologies are now becoming the new empires of this future.


The background here is that the previously mentioned dimensional bomb that was used (PCs will be unaware of this classified weapon, but may learn of it later) had gained the attention of a powerful Type 3 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kardashev_scale) civilization from one of the other dimensions. This was like a person getting bit by a mosquito, but the "person" responded by swatting the mosquito, not thinking anything of it afterwards and moving on with their life.
But in the PC's dimension, the swatting came in the form of a wave of alien machines that swept through and destroyed the major hubs of civilization, targeting the biggest clusters of technology. This left relatively small civilizations intact and able to become the new centers of the future. The attackers left after one pass through, but traces of their existance remain and could prove to be dangerous in the wrong hands.

The campaign will be sand-box style, but with a main story arc to find and destroy the last remaining alien machine currently in the hands of a warring empire determined to figure out how it works. I am taking inspiration from the Ur-Quan of Star Control 2 for this arc, something several of my players foldly remember.
Other arcs I can add would be helping ruined worlds rebuild, locating lost Starfleet tech to help repair their own damaged ship, and working out political differences with budding new civilizations so they can work together peacefully.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-10, 11:31 AM
Did the Q Continuum have any part in the apocalypse, on either side? They're supposed to be a multidimensional, near-omnipotent civilization as well (particularly one with a tendency to meddle), you'd think they would have something to say about this other civilization stomping in their sandbox.

hamlet
2012-08-10, 11:45 AM
That sounds like it could be fun.

As for the Q, I get the sense that they'd stand back and let this kind of thing happen. Social Darwinians of a sort, really.

Plus, they're major plot devices rather than actual characters or anything like that.


If I might make a suggestion, instead of a newish science vessel, since they're new cadets, stick them on one of the old refurbished Constitution class ships that have been hauled out of the museums in the wake of the Dominion war to supplement vessel losses.

Vauron
2012-08-10, 09:40 PM
I like the sound of it. Admittedly, my preferred 'Fall of the Federation' would be caused by a series of bloody civil wars, but I'm weird like that.

A few things to think about:

Is it only warp tech that brings the attention of the Berserkers*?
How much can the player ship repair itself without aid?**
Why is Federation tech that survived the Berserkers in good enough condition to be of use?
Were any high-tech enclaves left after the cleansing? While the Prophets were largely plot devices, they also acted to protect the Bajorans, so did they do anything this time?
Were any of the factions in the Milky Way able to effectively resist the attackers?
Are you going to ignore any movies, series, or episodes?

*The term refers to AI Von Neumann warships tasked with wiping out all organic life
**If the answer is "Like Voyager, it can be completely repaired regardless of damage between episodes with no aid or support.", the answer is wrong.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-10, 09:50 PM
Are you going to ignore any movies, series, or episodes?[/INDENT]
.

I suggest ignoring any part of Enterprise related to time travel, the Temporal Cold War, or similar such nonsense. Because time travel.

Jallorn
2012-08-11, 01:31 PM
This reminds me of a similar idea I had once, where the Dominion War went the way it was supposed to by the numbers, and the Federation had basically fallen. The players were the crew of one of the last surviving Federation Ships, and they had managed to acquire a cloaking device. Most of the concept was centered around the idea of picking up pieces of ships wherever possible for repairs, and eventually building a superior ship by cobbling together the best parts.

All while dodging the Dominion, and probably trying to recreate the Federation.

Hopeless
2012-08-12, 01:23 PM
I always thought Voyager was done the wrong way round and have an alien ship with say a single surviving crewmember with a number of starfleet personnel stuck aboard with a massive alien invasion already happening and the only proof they have is aboard that ship which has been declared as an enemy scout by the infiltrators from a season from Star Trek Next Generation.
So those things have seized control of the Federation and the only threat to their plans is a single damaged warship thats travelling through visting the federation and perhaps other worlds too trying to make repairs and make allies to help with the collossal task of saving the Federation...
Still think the Andromeda related idea you have is okay though!

Kitten Champion
2012-08-12, 02:16 PM
Losing FTL utterly would be pretty difficult to do, even with a protracted technocidal campaign by advanced aliens. Ordinary people in the ST:TNG series have easy access to basic scientific and technical information with the accompanying skills to utilize it, even in the most distant of colonies they're extremely well educated and informed.

One replicator with sufficient power and some skilled engineers to use it could restore their techno-utopia within a generation or two. Even shuttlecrafts have FTL. You'd need a compelling reason not to try, like left-over drones from the alien invasion that target technologies of certain types, and only by building outside those types (biological, torch-ships, something of the like) can one have an interstellar civilization.

DigoDragon
2012-08-13, 09:09 AM
Did the Q Continuum have any part in the apocalypse, on either side?

I written the Q Continuum as basically "hands off" and just allowing the civilization to figure out how to restore themselves. I've played in two Trek games and Qs seem to be difficult to work with, both GMs tend to save them for very limited "moments" since they can turn an adventure upside down with a snap of the finger. Perhaps their curiosity of how resiliant Humans are got them to just watch the struggle with this challenge?



If I might make a suggestion, instead of a newish science vessel, since they're new cadets, stick them on one of the old refurbished Constitution class ships that have been hauled out of the museums in the wake of the Dominion war to supplement vessel losses.

That's a good suggestion actually. I shall take that into serious consideration since I need to familiarize myself with the Dominion War (I missed a lot of those DS9 episodes. Gotta load up the Netflix).



A few things to think about:

Is it only warp tech that brings the attention of the Berserkers*?
How much can the player ship repair itself without aid?**
Why is Federation tech that survived the Berserkers in good enough condition to be of use?
Were any high-tech enclaves left after the cleansing? While the Prophets were largely plot devices, they also acted to protect the Bajorans, so did they do anything this time?
Were any of the factions in the Milky Way able to effectively resist the attackers?
Are you going to ignore any movies, series, or episodes?

*The term refers to AI Von Neumann warships tasked with wiping out all organic life
**If the answer is "Like Voyager, it can be completely repaired regardless of damage between episodes with no aid or support.", the answer is wrong.

I have a few answers I think--
1. For right now, just the tech attracts the attention of the "Berzerkers". I'll add more when I think up of them or get suggestions as well since having only this one reason can be tentatively weak.

2. I'll have to figure out (or find) a system to track ship resources, but minor repairs like switches, wiring, lights would be the best they could do. If they get into a battle and end up with a hole in their hull, that section would likely be unuseable unless they can locate some paneling to physically plug it. Fuel would be a concern too. They'll start with a decent amount, but will have to plan their trips accordingly and make friends with any supply depots they meet.

3. Most of it won't be in good condition. The idea I had with "lost tech" was that the crew might find a partly intact derelict Federation ship that they could canibalize parts from. It be far too gone to put into service, but if they needed, say, replacement computer screens they may find a few onboard to take.
I'd assume that Starfleet would keep a few vaults of resources stored away near homebase in case of things like war or disaster. This would encourage the PCs to explore past Starfleet facilities in search of these.

For the rest, not sure yet. Still working out the possibilities, although The Glyphstone made a good pointabout possible episodes to avoid. :smallsmile:



Losing FTL utterly would be pretty difficult to do, even with a protracted technocidal campaign by advanced aliens.

This is true! I didn't plan to have FTL completely gone. The mentioned minor civs that become the new major empires will have FTL. However, their tech will vary from Starfleet tech, so as to prevent the PCs from just taking their FTL equipment to use on their own ship.
It would require efforts in reverse engineering the designs to make them compatible, acquiring other parts to link the different systems, and several bouts of testing (which could end badly). Voyager touched on these concepts a little I believe.

Of course, its possible the PCs might try just stealing one of their ships, but that's got it's own set of challenges right there.

hamlet
2012-08-13, 09:48 AM
I written the Q Continuum as basically "hands off" and just allowing the civilization to figure out how to restore themselves. I've played in two Trek games and Qs seem to be difficult to work with, both GMs tend to save them for very limited "moments" since they can turn an adventure upside down with a snap of the finger. Perhaps their curiosity of how resiliant Humans are got them to just watch the struggle with this challenge?


Or, who knows, the Continuum might believe that this is the "next stage in human evolution" and that this being blasted back to the proverbial stone age is the tipping point that decides whether humans step onto the path that will, eventually, lead them to become like the Q, or simply die out as yet another failed evolutionary dead end. Perhaps the Q, in some form or fashion, like our contact with the Borg, was hastened or caused by them in order to nudge us in the right direction.




That's a good suggestion actually. I shall take that into serious consideration since I need to familiarize myself with the Dominion War (I missed a lot of those DS9 episodes. Gotta load up the Netflix).



Well, yeah, I actually whole heartedly recommend watching DS9 from start to finish. Even the "bad" episodes, which by the standards of Trek are very good.

But Star Trek Alpha Wiki has a good, concise article on the topic that covers most of what you'd need to know, including a lot of the stuff that's only implied or happens well off screen and you can miss if you're not really paying attention.


Other suggestions: It doesn't have to be a Constitution, though those are my favorites. A Reliant class, for example, is contemporary to that class of ship and was, though a little lighter in its expected duties, comparable in capability. At least in practice and with somebody at the helm who knew what they hell he was doing.

Another possibility includes the Excellsior Class. Trully excellent all around boat that saw duty well into the TNG era. I think even a couple of them were tooling around during the war on various courier and transport duties. According to the uber-nerds of Trek, The Excellsior was just about the single best designed class of ship StarFleet ever built, though by now it's hopelessly out of date, so it still suits your needs while still being somewhat newer than Kirk's mainstay, which was out of date even by the time he got one (they were being retro-fitted as early as the first movie to keep up with tech even if, overall, the design wasn't so bad).

Also, a minor suggestion, instead of having these uber-aliens show up and just blow away the major civilizations of the day, combine that with the idea of a slow decline and fall on the part of the Federation itself, and maybe the others as well. Internal and intra-empire struggles and difficulties caused the Federation, Klingons, and Romulans (the major powers of the time period) to expend a lot of their remaining power after the Dominion War, throwing away a lot of what they had left on "brushfire wars" or whatever, and losing a lot to just out and out neglect as the Federation switches back to a nominally pascifist footing. The aliens arrive on the scene, and rather than being overwhelmingly powerful, they were simply powerful enough that they could not be resisted with the drastically weakened forces left around.

This way, the temper of the campaign switches from "oh no they're too strong!" to something more along the lines of "they're strong, but if we organize and effectively rearm, we stand a real chance."

Also, leave out major series characters. Seriously. You don't want Luke Skywalker syndrome to happen.

Binks
2012-08-13, 11:56 AM
A Reliant class
I apologize in advance but I can't help myself from mentioning that it's a Miranda class, not Reliant class (specifically Miranda with rollbar, that thing on the top that had a torpedo launcher).

If you don't want them blowing away the other civilizations with their super ship, but also want to portray they other civs as un-advanced, then look no further than the Oberth class. A contemporary of the Constitution and Miranda classes the Oberth was designed as a science and scouting vessel and is lightly armed (1 phaser and torpedo launcher) but reasonably shielded (particularly against gravitational effects, like a black hole). Oberths were in production from TOS times straight through TNG times with few changes, so you can have the ship be as old as you want. It's designed to hold a crew of 80 but can be operated by as few as 5 people (your average PC party, how's that for convenient).

If you're looking for technobabble about time travel I would recommend re-watching Star Trek IV The Voyage Home. Warp speed + massive object (the sun) = Time travel is already there, so your PCs should have no trouble accepting it (I assume this is where you got the idea from, but just in case thought I'd mention it).

My questions about this future as a player would be:
1. What happened to the Borg? Not strong enough to resist? Couldn't adapt? Did this race that did the swatting have anything to do with/in common with 8472?
2. Are there any traces of the Federation left? Even with most everything getting wiped there should be some Fed research stations on minimally inhabited planets that were able to hide out. Or did the berserkers track down and destroy everything Fed/Klingon/Romulan?
3. What's non-canon? Enterprise has to be unless the berserkers attacked after the 31st century Temporal Cold War.
4. What year is it? A fed starship should have the capability to extrapolate from star charts what year it is as soon as they can tell where they are (as soon as they find a system they recognize).
5. There are lots of really big powerhouses in Trek. Q, Treline (who may be a Q), 8472, the First Federation, the being at the center of the galaxy, the Organians, the Prophets, the dyson sphere civ, the Douwd, the caretaker's race, the list goes on. You can probably safely ignore most of these, under the assumption that either your players won't know about them or they're weaker than your new civ, but you probably want to make sure you at least know who they are in case it comes up (memory alpha is your friend).

Best of luck with this.

hamlet
2012-08-13, 12:06 PM
I apologize in advance but I can't help myself from mentioning that it's a Miranda class, not Reliant class (specifically Miranda with rollbar, that thing on the top that had a torpedo launcher).


I stand corrected.

My Nerd-Fu has failed me.

Philistine
2012-08-13, 12:26 PM
This is actually pretty close to my personal favorite "Federation Falls" scenario, which features Sufficiently Advanced Aliens popping in to club the entire setting like a baby seal for blatant and systematic abuse of scientific terminology and impersonating a science fiction franchise. :smalltongue:

But anyway.

The above "Alpha Quadrant in Decline" idea ties in nicely with the original "superbomb" idea, with a war-weary and resource-depleted Federation looking to replace massed conventional forces (which are hugely expensive) with a relative handful of weapons of unprecedented destructiveness (individually very expensive, but much cheaper overall).

Vauron
2012-08-13, 06:30 PM
This is true! I didn't plan to have FTL completely gone. The mentioned minor civs that become the new major empires will have FTL. However, their tech will vary from Starfleet tech, so as to prevent the PCs from just taking their FTL equipment to use on their own ship.
It would require efforts in reverse engineering the designs to make them compatible, acquiring other parts to link the different systems, and several bouts of testing (which could end badly). Voyager touched on these concepts a little I believe.
Just remember, just because the major powers crumbled, that does not mean the laws of physics changed. If Battletech style jumpgates didn't work before, they wont have randomly started now. More likely, the new powers will be limited to the lower warps, perhaps with warp 5 being the limit for them. That doesn't mean that the PCs can make easy use of period engines, as the engine of an WWI era battleship wont have much that can aid a modern carrier.

DigoDragon
2012-08-14, 08:52 AM
This way, the temper of the campaign switches from "oh no they're too strong!" to something more along the lines of "they're strong, but if we organize and effectively rearm, we stand a real chance."

Good idea, this way it can be used as a useful (defeatable) encounter instead of a "must avoid" hazard. Plus it'll satisfy any PCs who want to take a little revenge on them for wrecking their back yard.
For choice of ship, I do like the Excelsior... Oberth seems more fitting, but nothing wrong with giving the PCs a little bit of a "regal" station assignment.



My questions about this future as a player would be:
1. What happened to the Borg? Not strong enough to resist? Couldn't adapt? Did this race that did the swatting have anything to do with/in common with 8472?
2. Are there any traces of the Federation left? Even with most everything getting wiped there should be some Fed research stations on minimally inhabited planets that were able to hide out. Or did the berserkers track down and destroy everything Fed/Klingon/Romulan?
3. What's non-canon? Enterprise has to be unless the berserkers attacked after the 31st century Temporal Cold War.
4. What year is it? A fed starship should have the capability to extrapolate from star charts what year it is as soon as they can tell where they are (as soon as they find a system they recognize).
5. There are lots of really big powerhouses in Trek. Q, Treline (who may be a Q), 8472, the First Federation, the being at the center of the galaxy, the Organians, the Prophets, the dyson sphere civ, the Douwd, the caretaker's race, the list goes on. You can probably safely ignore most of these, under the assumption that either your players won't know about them or they're weaker than your new civ, but you probably want to make sure you at least know who they are in case it comes up (memory alpha is your friend).

Best of luck with this.

1. Haven't thought much on that yet, but probably going to write them off as "eliminated" since the Borg can stand as their own campaign plot and I wanted to focus on lesser used races. Also, Voyager pretty much ruined their magic with my players (Not expecting to use 8472 either). This new dimensional alien species I wanted to keep cloaked in mystery-- although they will be speculated about and the PCs will interact with their remaining machines, the aliens themselves will not make a physical appearance.
I like the idea of fighting a faceless enemy.

2. There will be traces of Federation/Romulan/Klingon left. It'll be the job of the players to find them and reunite them in the rebuilding efforts. Helpful as they will likely need ports for any major repairs their ship requires.

3. I'm leaving out Enterprise, time traveling stuff, probably some bits of Voyager... mostly sticking to Next Gen and DS9 ideas.

4. Not sure of the year to use yet, but I'll make a timeline once I crunch the numbers for the length the decline takes.

5. Yeah, not likely i'll use them, but i'll keep notes in case someone asks.



More likely, the new powers will be limited to the lower warps, perhaps with warp 5 being the limit for them. That doesn't mean that the PCs can make easy use of period engines, as the engine of an WWI era battleship wont have much that can aid a modern carrier.

That could be one nice advantage to give the players-- Their ship is capable of higher warp speeds than the new powers. Since the new powers will have numbers (and resources) on their side, it be good to give the plays a non-combat alternative to getting around.

Logic
2012-08-14, 06:13 PM
Personal preference here, but I would avoid sticking the players on a Constitution class starship. All of them would be well over 100 years old, and more fragile than most other starships of the era. Other ship classes I would personally avoid, due to inability to adequetely defend itself: Oberth, Miranda, Excelsior, Steamrunner, Antares, Soyuz, Olympic.

Ship classes I would avoid because it would pose little challenge to the players:
Defiant, Galaxy, Akira, Sovereign, Intrepid (because Voyager somehow makes it through EVERYTHING.)

Classes I would recommend: Cheyenne, Nebula, Ambassador, Norway, Nova, New Orleans, Centaur.

And to aid you in your selection, here is the list of Federation Starships from Memory Alpha. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_starships)

Binks
2012-08-14, 08:02 PM
Nova's a good one, it's basically a more modernized and powerful Oberth in role and function. Norway's also good. It really depends on where the new races are tech-wise and where the invaders are. Giving the players a Nova and having the main races be TOS level is effectively the same as giving them an Oberth and having the main races be ENT level, it's all about how the ship compares to everything around it. I just really like the idea of an Oberth being one of the most powerful ships around due to the decay of technology :P.

What tech level are the major races Trek-wise? Early ENT (barely capable of making warp-capable starships, very weak weapons, need a large number to do anything to even a TOS ship, as a lone constitution was basically able to take a fleet)? Late ENT (capable of manufacturing a decent number of low-warp capable ships, the beginning of good space combat weapons, similar to early ENT but less ships would be needed to threaten a TOS era ship)? Early TOS (Fleets of low-warp capable ships, low-yield versions of the standard weapons of Star Trek, probably able to threaten an Oberth 1v1 or a Nova 3-10v1)?

Do you want to have the PCs running from every hostile they encounter? Every hostile battlegroup regardless of size? Or just reasonable sized fleets (3-5 ships)? Or more? That defines your weapon level, and that defines your PC ship level. If you want 1v1 challenges you really can't put them in a Nova, as that would imply the major powers of this timeline are almost TNG Federation level in terms of tech. Oberth works alright, since you can have them at early TOS level without too much handwaving. On the other hand if you don't want them to be threatened unless a fleet (10+) is brought against them a Nova works far better as you can take the weapon levels all the way up to Later ENT levels and maybe early TOS without issue. Oberth less so, as it really needs them to have early ENT weapons to work...and maybe even less than that.

* I am completely guestimating these numbers, but since you have a lot of flexibility in terms of tech levels and these are more just labels for various levels it should work out fine.

Logic
2012-08-14, 08:16 PM
Nova's a good one, it's basically a more modernized and powerful Oberth in role and function. Norway's also good. It really depends on where the new races are tech-wise and where the invaders are. Giving the players a Nova and having the main races be TOS level is effectively the same as giving them an Oberth and having the main races be ENT level, it's all about how the ship compares to everything around it. I just really like the idea of an Oberth being one of the most powerful ships around due to the decay of technology :P.

What tech level are the major races Trek-wise? Early ENT (barely capable of making warp-capable starships, very weak weapons, need a large number to do anything to even a TOS ship, as a lone constitution was basically able to take a fleet)? Late ENT (capable of manufacturing a decent number of low-warp capable ships, the beginning of good space combat weapons, similar to early ENT but less ships would be needed to threaten a TOS era ship)? Early TOS (Fleets of low-warp capable ships, low-yield versions of the standard weapons of Star Trek, probably able to threaten an Oberth 1v1 or a Nova 3-10v1)?

Do you want to have the PCs running from every hostile they encounter? Every hostile battlegroup regardless of size? Or just reasonable sized fleets (3-5 ships)? Or more? That defines your weapon level, and that defines your PC ship level. If you want 1v1 challenges you really can't put them in a Nova, as that would imply the major powers of this timeline are almost TNG Federation level in terms of tech. Oberth works alright, since you can have them at early TOS level without too much handwaving. On the other hand if you don't want them to be threatened unless a fleet (10+) is brought against them a Nova works far better as you can take the weapon levels all the way up to Later ENT levels and maybe early TOS without issue. Oberth less so, as it really needs them to have early ENT weapons to work...and maybe even less than that.

* I am completely guestimating these numbers, but since you have a lot of flexibility in terms of tech levels and these are more just labels for various levels it should work out fine.
An Oberth class was destroyed in one hit by a Klingon Bird of prey of the same era*. I think this class of ship is too weak to be on par with a Tier 3 alien race.
*Star Trek III: The Search for Spock

And this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Starfleet_starships_ordered_by_class) is oddly enough a more comprehensive list of starship classes than the Memory Alpha article I mentioned earlier.

Hopeless
2012-08-15, 06:10 AM
Replace the Borg with Cybermen as in the original version (Tenth Planet is the name of the first dr who serial to introduce them) that way they can be as strong or as weak as you require.

How about they have access to limited supplies of federation ships and start off with your Oberth/Nova and seek out an old federation base (old by current standards doesn't mean your timelost crew wouldn't know where it is) where they find a couple of ships but only the means to fix one of them before their rivals/enemies come storming in to steal their find.

How much would it effect your campaign if the first thing they're trying to recover is an obsolete Federation space station ala TOS and by their current standards its as close as they can get to their best technology base?

hamlet
2012-08-15, 08:26 AM
Personal preference here, but I would avoid sticking the players on a Constitution class starship. All of them would be well over 100 years old, and more fragile than most other starships of the era. Other ship classes I would personally avoid, due to inability to adequetely defend itself: Oberth, Miranda, Excelsior, Steamrunner, Antares, Soyuz, Olympic.

Ship classes I would avoid because it would pose little challenge to the players:
Defiant, Galaxy, Akira, Sovereign, Intrepid (because Voyager somehow makes it through EVERYTHING.)

Classes I would recommend: Cheyenne, Nebula, Ambassador, Norway, Nova, New Orleans, Centaur.

And to aid you in your selection, here is the list of Federation Starships from Memory Alpha. (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Federation_starships)


The problem with all those is that they're all high tech. The Excelsior, Constitution, Miranda, etc., classes are all a good generation behind in ship building, but they were quite sturdy ships in their time packing a good enough wallop that they all long outlasted their expected lifetimes. Especially the Excellsior which lasted well into the TNG era and, IIRC, saw action during the Dominion War.

Also remember, it really depends on how far back civilization was set. Might find yourself in a position where the Constitution class regains its pride of place as being the crowning acheivement of ships.

All those nice fancy newer ships are sure to attract the attention and ire of the angry tech killling monster race that bombed the Federation back into the stoneage.

DigoDragon
2012-08-15, 08:30 AM
My thoughts are that the tech level of the new races will be early TOS era (its my favorite time frame). I want the PCs to have a ship that can defeat an enemy of 1-2 opponents without much difficulty, but a fight of 3-4 ships would be a challenging "boss encounter". Solo fighting a fleet higher than that would probably be suicidal by most standards.

Nova class looks like a pretty ship design. Small, but I think a small ship to start with would be best for the PCs to handle (something too big would make them drunk with power, unless of course, it's an older design). Lots of other designs to ponder through since a big decision is if the PCs should start on something "Modern" or a refit of an older class. Kinda leaning towards the latter still.

The idea of recovering a Fed station could be good. Maybe not early on, but if found a bit later, it could house a slightly bigger ship. Maybe contain an "upgrade" ship for the PCs as a reward after a major story arc is completed.

Binks
2012-08-15, 11:43 AM
An Oberth class was destroyed in one hit by a Klingon Bird of prey of the same era*.
True. It's been a while since I saw that movie but if I remember correctly that was a 'lucky shot' and the Oberth didn't have shields up (no flash). If that's the case then there's really no comparison with normal combat operations, as a Galaxy class can be destroyed by a BoP if it's shields are down (Generations). If it had shields up and was still killed 1 one shot then it's out of the running I guess (not to imply that it isn't already out of the running). Now I need to go watch that movie again :smalltongue:.


My thoughts are that the tech level of the new races will be early TOS era (its my favorite time frame). I want the PCs to have a ship that can defeat an enemy of 1-2 opponents without much difficulty, but a fight of 3-4 ships would be a challenging "boss encounter". Solo fighting a fleet higher than that would probably be suicidal by most standards.[/spoiler]
Nova's probably your best bet then. A Nova vs. 2 TOS era BoPs would be reasonably difficult (particularly if you don't want to take any damage) and would lean towards using the Nova's superior maneuvering rather than just slugging it out. A Nova vs. 4 BoPs would be very difficult to win without tactics, luck and terrain on the Nova's side, the epitome of a boss fight.
If you're still more interested in a more refit type ship and you want the other races at early TOS level tech then you probably need either a Constitution-refit (which has the added bonus of basically being TOS :P), a Constellation class (what it lacks in power it makes up for in reliability), or an Excelsior (the most powerful of the three, but not so far ahead that the other races can't keep up). Those are the only fed ships of that era I know of that are strong enough to fight 2v1 odds as a normal challenge.

Here's an amusing thought that comes to mind (and I'm sure someone else has thought of it already). Start them off in a Constellation-class, an old ruckity bucket of bolts that none-the-less is more powerful 1v1 than almost any ship in the new timeline. Later on they find a Fed outpost that has, surprise surprise, an 'old' Nova class vessel with some upgrades (quantum torpedoes, for some reason players love quantum...and it gives them a very limited 'we need to win now' button that can't be reproduced) from near the end of the Federation lifespan and is only missing a warp core...something that is compatible with their current ship. So they can either strip the Nova and upgrade the Constellation or strip the Constellation to get the Nova working. Boom, you get both ships in the game and you add some more player choice to your game at little cost to you :smalltongue:.

Logic
2012-08-15, 05:22 PM
True. It's been a while since I saw that movie but if I remember correctly that was a 'lucky shot' and the Oberth didn't have shields up (no flash). If that's the case then there's really no comparison with normal combat operations, as a Galaxy class can be destroyed by a BoP if it's shields are down (Generations). If it had shields up and was still killed 1 one shot then it's out of the running I guess (not to imply that it isn't already out of the running). Now I need to go watch that movie again :smalltongue:.
The ship that destroyed the USS Grissom (http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/USS_Grissom_%28NCC-638%29) was a Klingon bird-of-prey (Commonly thought to be B'Rel class, but that is expanded universe stuff.) Three of this class of ship were used by Ferengi to subdue and capture the Enterprise-D. [TNG S6E7 Rascals]

The ship that destroyed The Enterprise-D was outdated only because of a flaw with the cloaking device. Effectively, it was as powerful as a standard Bird of Prey of the TNG era. Without the shields down, B'Etor remarked that their Bird-of-prey was no match for a galaxy class starship. With the shields down, B'Etor and Lursa had no compunctions against firing against the ship that moments before had severely outclassed them. And despite this, it still took several hits (on-screen, we get to see 3-4, and with the length of the battle, the were probably hit a dozen times or more) to the engineering section to destroy the Enterprise-D.

If DigoDragon wishes to proceed with this campaign as stated, a Constitution class (preferably with the Enterprise class refit) is a much better choice than an Oberth class. Those things are fragile. Nearly every Oberth class ship that gets any screen time is destroyed not too long afterwards.

hamlet
2012-08-16, 07:50 AM
Agreed.

Also, it does speak to something that's hinted at over the course of all the franchise's shows, that the Federation's really truly great edge technology-wise over the other races are their shields and their sensors tech.

The shields I'm more sure about. Especially as logic notes, what really made the Enterprise D so much more than the bird of prey was her shields. Without them, the Galaxy Class ship, then pride of the Federation (or at least recently so), was just a giant pinata for them to whack at and it took a little techno-wizardry even then for the Enterprise to effectively fight back. The Federation puts a lot of stock in the strength of their shields to the point where they don't armor their ships at all until the outset of the Dominion War. It's actually to the point where, without shields, Federation ships are quite delicate.

Though this was not really quite the case pre-TNG days when the ships were, with obvious noted exceptions, quite a lot tougher built for apparant reasons.

The sensors bit is kind of a pet theory for me. Mostly built around and episode of TNG . . . "The Chase" I think . . . where Picard surprises the local Cardassian Gul when he reveals that their sensors are able to read and decode Cardassian transponder codes. I think that, as disingenuous as it might be sometimes, their pretentions to being a scientific organization has led Starfleet and the Federation to developing some really good sensor equipment which, when you know what to look for, even penetrates Romulan and Klingon cloaks, though not efficiently and at the speed of plot.

DigoDragon
2012-08-16, 07:53 AM
Here's an amusing thought that comes to mind (and I'm sure someone else has thought of it already) (...)

That sounds like a reasonable way to do things. :smallsmile:
Thanks for the ideas!

Logic
2012-08-17, 01:09 AM
Also, it does speak to something that's hinted at over the course of all the franchise's shows, that the Federation's really truly great edge technology-wise over the other races are their shields and their sensors tech.

The shields I'm more sure about. Especially as logic notes, what really made the Enterprise D so much more than the bird of prey was her shields. Without them, the Galaxy Class ship, then pride of the Federation (or at least recently so), was just a giant pinata for them to whack at and it took a little techno-wizardry even then for the Enterprise to effectively fight back. The Federation puts a lot of stock in the strength of their shields to the point where they don't armor their ships at all until the outset of the Dominion War. It's actually to the point where, without shields, Federation ships are quite delicate.

Though this was not really quite the case pre-TNG days when the ships were, with obvious noted exceptions, quite a lot tougher built for apparant reasons.

The sensors bit is kind of a pet theory for me. Mostly built around and episode of TNG . . . "The Chase" I think . . . where Picard surprises the local Cardassian Gul when he reveals that their sensors are able to read and decode Cardassian transponder codes. I think that, as disingenuous as it might be sometimes, their pretentions to being a scientific organization has led Starfleet and the Federation to developing some really good sensor equipment which, when you know what to look for, even penetrates Romulan and Klingon cloaks, though not efficiently and at the speed of plot.
Gene Roddenberry didn't want Starfleet to be the military arm of the Federation. It kind of ended up that way because you can't exactly write a story involving War without getting the military involved.

However, the idea that Starfleet and the Federation have developed advanced shields and sensor technology makes more sense when you consider Star Trek 6: The Undiscovered Country.

Faced with a military industrial complex that MUST wind down because the the most implacable foe of the Federation, The Klingon Empire, has declared peace, several high level officials ask what will become of Starfleet. The answer given is that the exploration arm of Starfleet will not be shut down, and it is implied (thought not explicitly stated) that most of the military resources will be appropriated into exploration, and they will become a military reserve force-used when called upon, otherwise they have anomalies to examine!

When your goals change (exploration rather than defense) it would make sense to spend more research and development funds on looking at stuff from afar and protecting your ship from these anomalies rather than fitting them for battle. These same ships CAN be used for battle, and they are indeed the reserve military force, but they are not geared for it. So, strong sensors and shields at the expense of weak weapons and armor works for a mostly peacetime civilization.

(And I apologize for hijacking this thread and turning it into a Star Trek history lesson, but hopefully DigoDragon gets some use out of my ramblings!)

Lentrax
2012-08-17, 12:18 PM
You know, I recently thought of running a Trek themed campaign myself lately running along the same lines.

The catch was I wasn't telling the players it was Trek. I was going to give them something like a d20 future survival/pirate type campaign variant. And I was going to reveal the broader Trek universe when they find the wreck of the Enterprise in a nebula hidden from looters by the dangers inherent to the nebula(Using Treknobabble for justifying it).

I hadn't really gotten much past extragalactic invaders before i got sidetracked by work and home, but if I do come up with anything else, I'll be happy to send it along.

DigoDragon
2012-08-17, 03:24 PM
(And I apologize for hijacking this thread and turning it into a Star Trek history lesson, but hopefully DigoDragon gets some use out of my ramblings!)

That's fine, I don't mind a little history. With three of my six players being quite well-versed Trek fans, I want to be able to keep my game's canon close to TOS and TNG/DS9 standards. :smallsmile:
(I'm sure they won't miss much from VOY or ENT. I know I don't).


I mentioned some of the ship ideas to two players to see what they thought of them and they both prefered Constitution just on pedigree of the design history.

Logic
2012-08-20, 06:52 PM
That's fine, I don't mind a little history. With three of my six players being quite well-versed Trek fans, I want to be able to keep my game's canon close to TOS and TNG/DS9 standards. :smallsmile:
(I'm sure they won't miss much from VOY or ENT. I know I don't).


I mentioned some of the ship ideas to two players to see what they thought of them and they both prefered Constitution just on pedigree of the design history.
Because very little of Voyager has to do with the Alpha Quadrant, you can skip most of their continuity.

Because very little of Enterprise does not contradict TOS, you can skip most of their continuity.

hamlet
2012-08-21, 07:14 AM
Because very little of Voyager has to do with the Alpha Quadrant, you can skip most of their continuity.

Because very little of Enterprise does not contradict TOS, you can skip most of their continuity.

Huge amounts of ENT contradicts TOS. And good taste. And logic. Though it has its moments. As long as you utterly ignore anything at all having to do with the Temporal Cold War, The Xindi, Space Nazis, The Borg (STUPID STUIPD STUIPD addition to the show), and the finale.

And the only thing you really need to include from the Voyager series is the Intrepid class ship, which is basically the next generation of the Excelsior class (i.e., the best all around design of a ship going even if it's not the biggest, most powerful, fastest, or sexiest. It's probably the one design from the TNG days that'll be around in 100 years after dozens of retrofits and upgrades while all the Galaxy, Sovereign, and etc. ships have been decomissioned).

Logic
2012-08-21, 06:57 PM
Huge amounts of ENT contradicts TOS. And good taste. And logic. Though it has its moments. As long as you utterly ignore anything at all having to do with the Temporal Cold War, The Xindi, Space Nazis, The Borg (STUPID STUIPD STUIPD addition to the show), and the finale.

And the only thing you really need to include from the Voyager series is the Intrepid class ship, which is basically the next generation of the Excelsior class (i.e., the best all around design of a ship going even if it's not the biggest, most powerful, fastest, or sexiest. It's probably the one design from the TNG days that'll be around in 100 years after dozens of retrofits and upgrades while all the Galaxy, Sovereign, and etc. ships have been decomissioned).

The Intrepid class was designed to be the Next-Generation of the scout type classes. Deep space long-term explorer, able to sustain itself for a great deal of time, etc.

The Excelsior, at its debut, was meant to be a battleship. The Galaxy is kind of the successor to Ambassador, and the Ambassador is the successor to the Excelsior.

hamlet
2012-08-22, 07:09 AM
The Intrepid class was designed to be the Next-Generation of the scout type classes. Deep space long-term explorer, able to sustain itself for a great deal of time, etc.

The Excelsior, at its debut, was meant to be a battleship. The Galaxy is kind of the successor to Ambassador, and the Ambassador is the successor to the Excelsior.

Yes, that was the intent. My point was not that the Intrepid was a good battleship (though in a freakish sort of way, it proved to be quite good at that as well), but that it will/would prove to be the best in terms of integration of components and overall design making it a very long lasting and successfull design while the others that you mentioned just didn't stick around as long being passed over for the next step (i.e., the Ambassador to the Galaxy to the one after that).

In essence, the actual Intrepid class will stick around for a lot longer than other classes would have because, when you get right down to it, it was really well executed.

Logic
2012-08-22, 05:12 PM
Yes, that was the intent. My point was not that the Intrepid was a good battleship (though in a freakish sort of way, it proved to be quite good at that as well), but that it will/would prove to be the best in terms of integration of components and overall design making it a very long lasting and successfull design while the others that you mentioned just didn't stick around as long being passed over for the next step (i.e., the Ambassador to the Galaxy to the one after that).

In essence, the actual Intrepid class will stick around for a lot longer than other classes would have because, when you get right down to it, it was really well executed.

I'd say it will be around longer because it fills a niche that newer technology and spaceframes will not easily replace.

Constitution>Excelsior>Ambassador>Galaxy>Sovereign>Odyssey (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-F%29)

These are all meant to be front-line ships for combat. Maybe not their primary purpose, but at their height, these ships are built specifically with battle in mind.

The Intrepid was designed for long-term deep space exploration with a minimal crew and several abilities that other ships did not have (variable warp field geometry so as to not damage subspace, planet-landing capabilities, maneuverable both at warp and impulse to avoid the anomalies that trapped your run-of-the-mill Galaxy class.)

I would not put an Intrepid on the front lines of a fight, but they would be a great support/guerrilla warfare ship.

Cerlis
2012-08-23, 01:28 AM
Huge amounts of ENT contradicts TOS. And good taste. And logic. Though it has its moments. As long as you utterly ignore anything at all having to do with the Temporal Cold War, The Xindi, Space Nazis, The Borg (STUPID STUIPD STUIPD addition to the show), and the finale.

Funny. Enterprise was my favorite of any of the shows.

Either way perhaps instead of outright insulting things, maybe explain WHY it shouldnt be included.(but maybe since Digo seems to agree, nevermind)

hamlet
2012-08-23, 07:28 AM
I'd say it will be around longer because it fills a niche that newer technology and spaceframes will not easily replace.

Constitution>Excelsior>Ambassador>Galaxy>Sovereign>Odyssey (http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Enterprise_%28NCC-1701-F%29)

These are all meant to be front-line ships for combat. Maybe not their primary purpose, but at their height, these ships are built specifically with battle in mind.

The Intrepid was designed for long-term deep space exploration with a minimal crew and several abilities that other ships did not have (variable warp field geometry so as to not damage subspace, planet-landing capabilities, maneuverable both at warp and impulse to avoid the anomalies that trapped your run-of-the-mill Galaxy class.)

I would not put an Intrepid on the front lines of a fight, but they would be a great support/guerrilla warfare ship.

I think there are lots of people who would argue with the Galaxy being considered a warship. It's often described as "a cruiseship in space." And, actually, as much as the "we're peaceful exploreres" garbage grates on my nerves, I'd have to say that the Galaxy, or at least the Enterprise D, was not really a war vessel so much as a showcase vessel. It was the logical extension of what could be done with then modern engineering techniques. The most advanced tech in the greatest quantities that they could cram onto a single frame. A flying city, essentially.

Yes, it was capable in a fight, but really, it wasn't all that great at it. It lost quite regularly and had little staying power in a real fight, though some of that could certainly be "rule of drama" showing up. Really, it was intended, and excelled at, being a science vessel, deep range explorer (as good as or better in some ways as the Intrepid), ambassadorial flag ship, etc. It was a multi-role vessel with combat not being a prime role.

Actually, get right down to it, one of its weaknesses might have been that it didn't have a prime role and so was a jack-of-all-trades, master of none.

In any case: I still think the Intrepid, when you get down to it, is a better designed ship overall. Not as big, not as much juice, but adaptable, quick, nimble, etc. It filled its intended niche very very well and benefited from having a clear design goal.

DigoDragon
2012-08-23, 07:34 AM
Either way perhaps instead of outright insulting things, maybe explain WHY it shouldnt be included.(but maybe since Digo seems to agree, nevermind)

My personal reason for not including most of ENT in my concept is the expansive time-traveling arcs that can conflict with the established hstory of TOS and TNG (like when the Federation met certain races). In addition, I did not like ENT's episode of the Borg that were found frozen on Earth and then beaming a signal back to Borg space. I preferred TNG's episode where Q introduced the Borg and the machines learned of the Federation that way.

Fair? :smallsmile:

Hopeless
2012-08-23, 07:55 AM
My personal reason for not including most of ENT in my concept is the expansive time-traveling arcs that can conflict with the established hstory of TOS and TNG (like when the Federation met certain races). In addition, I did not like ENT's episode of the Borg that were found frozen on Earth and then beaming a signal back to Borg space. I preferred TNG's episode where Q introduced the Borg and the machines learned of the Federation that way.

Fair? :smallsmile:

So you don't subscribe to the theory that the Voyager probe encounter in Star Trek the Motion Picture wasn't the result of an encounter with the Borg?

DigoDragon
2012-08-24, 07:03 AM
So you don't subscribe to the theory that the Voyager probe encounter in Star Trek the Motion Picture wasn't the result of an encounter with the Borg?

I don't think that V'Ger encounter had anything to do with the Borg. Their designs and missions are different (i.e. V'Ger wants to unite with its creator, borg want to assimilate everyone).

An interesting theory, but no, not one I'd personally subscribe to.

Logic
2012-08-27, 05:50 PM
So you don't subscribe to the theory that the Voyager probe encounter in Star Trek the Motion Picture wasn't the result of an encounter with the Borg?
That is kind of the plot to Star Trek: Legacy, a poorly thought out attempt to finally cash in on the video game market that Star Trek has failed at many times.

There are few good Trek games, and Legacy barely makes it onto the list of decent.