Immediate action teleportation vs spells question

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Ok here it goes:

You have an item that teleports you 10ft away as an immediate action.

You are not flat-footed, and you have your immediate action available.
An enemy sorcerer casts scorching ray on you. Can you:

-Teleport after the attack roll is made?
-Teleport before the attack roll is made?

If you teleport before the attack roll is made, can the sorcerer still hit you?
If you teleport after the attack roll is made, all rays will miss or just one? (if he has more than 1 rays?)

_____

Next part. An enemy sorcerer is casting you a fireball. Can you:

-Teleport only before the spells area is defined? (you would have to teleport randomly)
-Teleport after the pea-sized bead hits its target and you can guess the area, but before you take damage?

______

Next one. You read explosive runes in combat. You know it is going to explode. Can you teleport 10ft away after you read it, but before you take damage? (suicide bomber without the suicide part :smallbiggrin: )


Thats all, thanks.

[shaga]

You have to be more specific when you say "after the attack roll is made". The way I understand it, if the attack roll is made it either hits you or misses you depending on your touch AC. I am guessing you mean, after the ray is targeted and fired but before it reach you and hits/miss you, depending on your AC.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

You have to be more specific when you say "after the attack roll is made". The way I understand it, if the attack roll is made it either hits you or misses you depending on your touch AC. I am guessing you mean, after the ray is targeted and fired but before it reach you and hits/miss you, depending on your AC.

Yes, after the attack roll is made, but before you know if it hits or misses. Thanks for pointing that out.

[shaga]

-Teleport after the pea-sized bead hits its target and you can guess the area, but before you take damage?

With what accuracy can you guess the area? Assuming you know the standard radius of a fireball and the wizard has casted a standard fireball, is there a way to measure the ground between you and the pea-sized bead?

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

With what accuracy can you guess the area? Assuming you know the standard radius of a fireball and the wizard has casted a standard fireball, is there a way to measure the ground between you and the pea-sized bead?

I don't know, I assume it is a spot check, but I can't think of a DC. Lets assume I teleport the other way as far as I can.

[Downysole]

I think you have to define it in terms of what your character can legally sense. If your character sees a caster pointing his finger at you and knows there is a scorching ray headed at you, you have time to act. If your character can't tell the caster is targeting him with a ray, you would not know what hit you (literally) so you can't act.

My understanding is that scorching rays are issued non-simultaneously and count as separate attacks (and therefore he can change targets within range at will). This means that you would be able to use an immediate action after being struck, but it also means that the caster can choose to issue his second ray to an alternate target (such as you, ten feet away). If the understanding around your table is that scorching rays are issued simultaneously as one attack (and therefore target changing is not allowed after you declare), you cannot use the immediate action after being struck by one ray to affect the outcome of the subsequent one(s).

Catch 22 there.

As for Fireball, I think that your senses would have to be sharp indeed to watch a fireball's bead go to an area and be able to react upon it impacting. Your DM would have to discuss an appropriate spot DC to determine the target grid intersection of the fireball.

[Flickerdart]

You can't teleport out of the way of the attack after the attack has been rolled, since in terms of time, "attack roll, see if it hits and then damage" is all part of the same event. However, if you teleport before the attack roll is made, he can just change his aim to where you went (unless you're now behind total cover). If you teleport between rays, you're still the target and they still shoot you.

Similarly, you have to teleport before the fireball is cast, which means the sorcerer can still hit you. You can teleport away from the runes, but it won't do anything, since you're still the reader and thus destined to take the damage.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

You can't teleport out of the way of the attack after the attack has been rolled, since in terms of time, "attack roll, see if it hits and then damage" is all part of the same event. However, if you teleport before the attack roll is made, he can just change his aim to where you went (unless you're now behind total cover). If you teleport between rays, you're still the target and they still shoot you.

Similarly, you have to teleport before the fireball is cast, which means the sorcerer can still hit you. You can teleport away from the runes, but it won't do anything, since you're still the reader and thus destined to take the damage.

What if somehow I have a luck reroll as an immediate action?

[shaga]

since in terms of time, "attack roll, see if it hits and then damage" is all part of the same event.

Where did you find that??

[Flickerdart]

Where did you find that??
Thinking with my head. The attack roll models the swing of the weapon. If it's a hit, then you can't teleport away because you've already been hit. The damage calculation is only there to determine how hard.

[Downysole]

Thinking with my head. The attack roll models the swing of the weapon. If it's a hit, then you can't teleport away because you've already been hit. The damage calculation is only there to determine how hard.

I don't think there's been a question of him trying to dodge out of an attack roll that's already been made before he can take damage.

[Diarmuid]

To play a bit of devil's advocate, when declaring a ranged attack you have declare where you're attacking.

Let's for instance say that a wizard moved 30' and then cast invisibility.

An archer, or enemy caster, etc targets that square with their attack. If the mage then abrupt jaunts away the attack will miss completely because they have attacked where he was not.

Why is this not possible while visible?

[Roguenewb]

Aaah, abrupt jaunt, Destroyer of Friendships.

As far as i know, this is a very *gray* area for the rules. Here's how I do it, modeled in no small part on the stack rules from MtG:

Step 1: The Sorcerer begins to cast a spell. A spellcraft check can identify the spell. Beating the DC by 5 or more allows you to know the target, or the intersection being targeted.
Step 1a: Would you like to teleport? If you teleport now, and it isn't out of the range of the spell, or to behind the cover, the sorcerer finishes casting, at you. Good work wizard =P

Step 2: The Sorcerer finishes casting the spell, and a thin red ray shoots out at you.
Step 2b: Would you like to teleport? If so, make opposed initiative checks to see if you're fast enough. If you win, and move, the spell arcs into the space you were in, and misses.

Step 3: The Sorcerer rolls to hit, and if successful, damage.
No Teleporting after this step begins.

Against melee:

Step 1: The Warrior moves 5 feet forward.
Step 1a: Would you like to teleport? The warrior doesn't have to declare movement over. So, if you teleport ten feet farther away, and he has more move speed....uh oh.

Step 2: Repeat step 1 until the warrior reaches you.
Step 2a: You may teleport at any of these points. When the warrior enters the adjacent square, he doesn't have to announce end of the movement, so the same caveat to step 1a.

Step 3: The warrior announces that he is done moving, and starts making a sword swing. The target is not yet declared.
Step 3a: Would you like to teleport? If you do, he may use his standard action for anything he wants. So, against a plain old barbarian, he may have no more options and just smash the floor. If another ally is in his range, he may turn and smash that guy.

Step 4: The warrior declares that he is attacking, you!
Step 4a: Would you like to teleport? If so, make opposed initiative checks with the warrior, if you succeed, nice teleport! Otherwise you aren't quick enough! If you succeed, the action is totally wasted.


Basically, it boils down to this.
1:Someone starts an action, target not declared yet
1a: You can teleport freely, and they can readjust.
2:Someone moves to complete that action, and you know you're the target.
2a: You can attempt a teleport, but initiative check is required.

Is this raw? As far as I know, no. Immediate actions by RAW are very loosely defined, and you can use them to interrupt pretty much anything, I think this system is better, and it works well, enjoy!

[Downysole]

Basically, it boils down to this.
1:Someone starts an action, target not declared yet
1a: You can teleport freely, and they can readjust.
2:Someone moves to complete that action, and you know you're the target.
2a: You can attempt a teleport, but initiative check is required.

By RAW, 1a is correct. By RAW, 2a would be the same as 1a except they can't adjust.

[Person_Man]

I'm definitely not the authority on RAW. But in my group, each player and the DM declares that they are going to take an action, then they roll a die. If you want to take an Immediate Action, you must announce that you are going to use it before the die is rolled. (Unless the roller declares and rolls too quickly for someone else to reasonably react, then we hand wave it). It works fairly well.

[ThiagoMartell]

Thinking with my head. The attack roll models the swing of the weapon. If it's a hit, then you can't teleport away because you've already been hit. The damage calculation is only there to determine how hard.

This creates weird situations in 3.5... such as disarm with a Karmic Strike (it specifically resolves at the same time as you're hit), Evasive Reflexes and stuff like that.
I think your reading is right, but there are many situations that remain awkward despite it.

[TuggyNE]

Basically, it boils down to this.
1:Someone starts an action, target not declared yet
1a: You can teleport freely, and they can readjust.
2:Someone moves to complete that action, and you know you're the target.
2a: You can attempt a teleport, but initiative check is required.

Is this raw? As far as I know, no. Immediate actions by RAW are very loosely defined, and you can use them to interrupt pretty much anything, I think this system is better, and it works well, enjoy!

Other than the opposed initiative checks (shades of older editions, there), this seems fairly close to RAW, IMO, and more or less RACSD. The checks are more of a houserule though.