Illusions - when do you get the will save?

[LordHenry]

Having been confronted with a lot of Illusion spells lately (and using them myself as a DM), it has occured to me: When exactly do you get a will save against them. (e.g. Minor Image, Hallucinatory Terrain etc...)
Foe example, there's a decorless room with nothing but a quadratic table and 3 chairs. With silent image you add a 4th chair, that looks identical to the others.

Now as I understand it, you only get the will save upon interacting with the Illusion, but when is that exactly?
Upon entering the room and spotting the table, chairs and illusion-chair? Upon closer investigation? If you try to sit on it? (thus literally interacting with it) In the last case, you would probably just hit the floor, making it obvious it's not a real chair - is a Will save even needed in this scenario?

Illuminate me, dear playground, and make those nasty Illusions in my head vanish :D

[Greyfeld85]

Having been confronted with a lot of Illusion spells lately (and using them myself as a DM), it has occured to me: When exactly do you get a will save against them. (e.g. Minor Image, Hallucinatory Terrain etc...)
Foe example, there's a decorless room with nothing but a quadratic table and 3 chairs. With silent image you add a 4th chair, that looks identical to the others.

Now as I understand it, you only get the will save upon interacting with the Illusion, but when is that exactly?
Upon entering the room and spotting the table, chairs and illusion-chair? Upon closer investigation? If you try to sit on it? (thus literally interacting with it) In the last case, you would probably just hit the floor, making it obvious it's not a real chair - is a Will save even needed in this scenario?

Illuminate me, dear playground, and make those nasty Illusions in my head vanish :D

At times like this, I have to refer people to this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a).

[LordHenry]

That's great and really in depth, thanks a lot!

[Gamer Girl]

Now as I understand it, you only get the will save upon interacting with the Illusion, but when is that exactly?
Upon entering the room and spotting the table, chairs and illusion-chair? Upon closer investigation? If you try to sit on it? (thus literally interacting with it) In the last case, you would probably just hit the floor, making it obvious it's not a real chair - is a Will save even needed in this scenario?


In general, sight is not enough. Sight is not interactive.

By default a character is not 'carefully looking over everything'(no matter what a player says). A person just causally sees everything around them. So they would not notice the 4th chair is an illusion at all.

If a character takes a minute or so to look at the table and chairs carefully...then they would get the save.

And I would count interacting with the chair 'about to sit on it' and give the character a save before they sat down. You don't want to go for the instant death illusions after all(where you could make an illusion of a bridge over the pit of doom and they 'interact with it and fall to their dooms automatically).

[Curmudgeon]

In rules terms, the important distinction is that if you're going to give your surroundings more than a reactive glance, it'll take some action on your part.
Action: Varies. Every time you have a chance to spot something in a reactive manner you can make a Spot check without using an action. Trying to spot something you failed to see previously is a move action.

[RagnaroksChosen]

This thread cought my attention.

One of the questions i ask a GM when I am about to play an illusionist is a hypothetical question:

"How would you handle this situation ' My character is in a 60 ft long corridor being chased by mindless skeletons. He is a gnome illusionist. The skeles are 40 ft behind me and I have initiative on them. If I cast silent image to make an illusionary wall, that looks like the walls of the corridor. When would the skeles get a save? Would they even get a save?'"

I ask this to find out if an illusionist is doable in there campaign. Generally the way they rule will dictate how they handle illusions in general during there campaigns.

[LordHenry]

With my newly found understanding of Illusions, they would probably use a round to reflect on the new situation (Skeletons being mindless), thus gaining the will save against the illusion.
However, if you were chased by human beings, they would probably get the save right away, seeing that a wall suddenly appears in front of them.
If you had just turned around a corner, moved 30 feet, then cast the Illusion in an unfamiliar terrain for the humans, they would at least need an action for carefully looking, then would get their save.

That's how I understand it.

[RagnaroksChosen]

With my newly found understanding of Illusions, they would probably use a round to reflect on the new situation (Skeletons being mindless), thus gaining the will save against the illusion.
However, if you were chased by human beings, they would probably get the save right away, seeing that a wall suddenly appears in front of them.
If you had just turned around a corner, moved 30 feet, then cast the Illusion in an unfamiliar terrain for the humans, they would at least need an action for carefully looking, then would get their save.

That's how I understand it.

See I rule it as, they go and find another way around. There mindless they don't study things.

As for the humans that all depends on alot of things which is why I don't put it in the question. If they are familar with basic magic i would say they wouldn't.. If they where smart and understood magic they would stay.

[LordHenry]

There's a mystical wall and you disapperead, I assumed that they want to get you so they will look around thus gaining a save. That was the scenario I had in mind... and even undeads would gain a will save as I understand it, they have something like basic instincts too. (just not as easily)

[Hiro Protagonest]

With my newly found understanding of Illusions, they would probably use a round to reflect on the new situation (Skeletons being mindless), thus gaining the will save against the illusion.
However, if you were chased by human beings, they would probably get the save right away, seeing that a wall suddenly appears in front of them.
If you had just turned around a corner, moved 30 feet, then cast the Illusion in an unfamiliar terrain for the humans, they would at least need an action for carefully looking, then would get their save.

That's how I understand it.

Mindless creatures have a thought process like this.

Situation - Wall appears

What is it made of?

Stone.

Options:

Demolish - ineffective

Go around - good


Creatures with brains would test to see if it's an illusion. Otherwise it's something similar.

[navar100]

With my newly found understanding of Illusions, they would probably use a round to reflect on the new situation (Skeletons being mindless), thus gaining the will save against the illusion.
However, if you were chased by human beings, they would probably get the save right away, seeing that a wall suddenly appears in front of them.
If you had just turned around a corner, moved 30 feet, then cast the Illusion in an unfamiliar terrain for the humans, they would at least need an action for carefully looking, then would get their save.

That's how I understand it.

That's not being fair. What if the spellcaster had cast Wall of Stone? Unless an observer made a spellcraft check knowing the spellcaster had cast Silent Image, a wall suddenly appearing should not automake a save for an illusion. A moment is needed. It's fine to say it takes a move-equivalent action, but "suddenly appearing" is not excuse to autoassume it's an illusion. For at least that one round it takes some moment to interact it prevents the observer from doing a full round action or equivalent.

[Menteith]

Silent Image can also "pretend" to be some spells, and isn't observably different. Using Silent Image to "create" a Wall of Gloom will give total concealment to anyone who's aware its an illusion (your team, if you tell them it is in a different language), but can't be interacted with using typical means; a move action to discern it's an illusion doesn't seem reasonable in this instance.

[Gamer Girl]

"How would you handle this situation ' My character is in a 60 ft long corridor being chased by mindless skeletons. He is a gnome illusionist. The skeles are 40 ft behind me and I have initiative on them. If I cast silent image to make an illusionary wall, that looks like the walls of the corridor. When would the skeles get a save? Would they even get a save?'"


I'm sure I'll have the most extreme answer, but that is just me:

The skeletons would Never get a save. However they would mostly ignore the wall and simply go right through it after you. They see the wall, sure, but as they have no minds, they would just run right into it(or through it).

But then too my undead have Lifesense and can detect the living and ignore illusions of creatures.

But now if they were say Orcs, it would depend. If the orcs knew the area, like the corridor is in their lair they get a save as soon as they see the illusionary wall(''Hum, I was walking down this corridor three hours ago and there was no wall and I sure did not see any new construction lately the orc union is on strike, and lazy too''). If it was an unknown place to them they could only get the save by stopping and looking carefully at the wall(''where did he go, he just ran this way'').

[LordHenry]

Another question has come up: Can you reroll a failed save? Taking the example that there's suddenly now way out, just walls, you would probably spend hours searching/carefully looking?
And if you have already made your save, then your friend points out that there's an illusion. You get +4 to your save, but do you get another save?

[TuggyNE]

Another question has come up: Can you reroll a failed save? Taking the example that there's suddenly now way out, just walls, you would probably spend hours searching/carefully looking?
And if you have already made your save, then your friend points out that there's an illusion. You get +4 to your save, but do you get another save?


If any viewer successfully disbelieves an illusion and communicates this fact to others, each such viewer gains a saving throw with a +4 bonus.

It's strongly implied that it's a new save, otherwise there would be little point to mentioning it. (And, of course, if you already attempted a save but didn't get another, the +4 would do nothing, which seems entirely illogical.) I believe the only reason they didn't put the word "new" in there was to handle the case where no interaction had previously occurred; still, that seems to be careless wording.

[RagnaroksChosen]

I'm sure I'll have the most extreme answer, but that is just me:

The skeletons would Never get a save. However they would mostly ignore the wall and simply go right through it after you. They see the wall, sure, but as they have no minds, they would just run right into it(or through it).

But then too my undead have Lifesense and can detect the living and ignore illusions of creatures.

But now if they were say Orcs, it would depend. If the orcs knew the area, like the corridor is in their lair they get a save as soon as they see the illusionary wall(''Hum, I was walking down this corridor three hours ago and there was no wall and I sure did not see any new construction lately the orc union is on strike, and lazy too''). If it was an unknown place to them they could only get the save by stopping and looking carefully at the wall(''where did he go, he just ran this way'').

So you have skeletons in your world that could just be running into walls endlessly? Or a player could get a skele to run into a wall endlessly if they manage to get the skele to think they ran through it. That's awesome.

Its not really an extreme question. Its one that could happen to a PC. Actually the reason I ask this particular question is due to a Mod that was run for me, A particular one , Return to castle ravenloft... I was playing an illusionist and we where being chased by mindless undead and well the question I asked essentially happened and it broke the game down into a 4 hour rules argument.

[AlchemicalMyst]

Another question has come up: Can you reroll a failed save? Taking the example that there's suddenly now way out, just walls, you would probably spend hours searching/carefully looking?
And if you have already made your save, then your friend points out that there's an illusion. You get +4 to your save, but do you get another save?
Yes, every time you interact with the illusion unless otherwise noted. If you studied it closely and failed the save then most GMs would rule that you have no reason to purposely do it again without something else drawing your attention to it.

Example: Run around corner, no one's there. You remember a door being here, not a wall... you and your buddy examine the wall closely (not touching for some reason), you failed. You turn around to check the hall once more when your buddy let's out an "aha! It's an illusion!" You look at the wall +4, failed save... "MADNESS!" your friend sticks his hand through the wall, automatic success! "Whoa man..."


The best go to solution... touch the wall, hand goes through, automatic success on save! :smallbiggrin:

[Diarmuid]

In general, sight is not enough. Sight is not interactive.

By default a character is not 'carefully looking over everything'(no matter what a player says). A person just causally sees everything around them. So they would not notice the 4th chair is an illusion at all.

If a character takes a minute or so to look at the table and chairs carefully...then they would get the save.

And I would count interacting with the chair 'about to sit on it' and give the character a save before they sat down. You don't want to go for the instant death illusions after all(where you could make an illusion of a bridge over the pit of doom and they 'interact with it and fall to their dooms automatically).

There are occasions when sight should be enough. If you're seeing a creature that you know would normally be giving off some kind of aura or other effect, or even has a Gaze attack you would know you should be resisting something and the fact that you're not would, to me, reflect interaction.

Taking that a step further though...if you were to fail your save vs a Programmed Illusion of a big ol' dragon and you were knowledgable enough to know about the fear aura....would you potentially flee from it?

[Gamer Girl]

So you have skeletons in your world that could just be running into walls endlessly? Or a player could get a skele to run into a wall endlessly if they manage to get the skele to think they ran through it. That's awesome.

Yes :) Call me old fashioned, but I just love the old 'skeleton endlessly running against the wall a la Gauntlet.


There are occasions when sight should be enough.

The problem is this goes way too much the other way. If everyone can detect illusions with a blink, you might as well just ban the whole school.



Taking that a step further though...if you were to fail your save vs a Programmed Illusion of a big ol' dragon and you were knowledgable enough to know about the fear aura....would you potentially flee from it?


Yup. This would be a great case of a person being effected by their own intelligence. (and this works in real life too)

But I never really liked the dragons silly fear aura.....I'm more that you fear the dragon as is a huge, intelligent, powerful, magical foe.

[ericgrau]

Simplest explanation I think is you save when you examine the illusion, not merely glance at it. It has to actually have your attention.

If you couldn't care less about it, there's no save. If you touch it or hit it with an object, you usually have proof and you disbelieve without any need to roll a save.

[only1doug]

I had a situation when i was GMing:

There was a pool of (weak) acid that was also a living spell: illusion;

half of the party thought that the pool was acidic, the other half didn't, they all knew that there was an illusion (I rolled for them so they didn't know whether they had passed or failed) but those who had failed were convinced that those who had passed were the ones seeing the illusion.

One of the party was in the pool splashing the acid out at the rest of the party to "prove it was an illusion".