(PF) Minimal stats for the following classes?

[WarKitty]

I need to come up with stat arrays for my players. I don't want to do super-epic-omg-awesome stats that make them super-geniuses or anything at level 1, but I do want the game to be playable as intended.

The PC classes I have are:
Wizard
Barbarian
Ranger

They do not have to have the same average bonuses between the classes. What would you consider minimal stats for playing each class?

[jaybird]

Optimization level? That'll determine how much difference there should be between the statlines in terms of total bonuses.

Barbarian and Ranger should have roughly similar arrays, though.

[grarrrg]

I need to come up with stat arrays for my players. I don't want to do super-epic-omg-awesome stats that make them super-geniuses or anything at level 1, but I do want the game to be playable as intended.

The PC classes I have are:
Wizard
Barbarian
Ranger


Optimization level? That'll determine how much difference there should be between the statlines in terms of total bonuses.

Kinda what he said. It also somewhat depends on what 'kind' of build they are.

I will try to shoot for a roughly 15 point buy for each.
Con is always pretty easy, mostly because NO ONE dumps it EVER.
14+ for the melee types, 12+ for the caster types

The Barbarian is the most cut and dry. He's going to want to boost STR, have the most CON, and moderate DEX. CHA is a MAJOR DUMP stat. INT is a minor dump stat. WIS should 10+.
Approx.
STR 16
DEX 12
CON 16
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 7

The Wizard is next, he needs to be able to cast his spells, and with the +1 stat every 4 levels, that means an absolute minimum of 14 VERY prefereably higher. STR isn't as necessary, no heavy armor or anything, Good for Touch spells though (which he should generally shy away from). DEX should be good to make up for the lack of armor, and to help with Initiative and such.
CHA is, again, a dump stat. WIS can be low because of Good Will save.
Approx.
STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 16
WIS 10
CHA 7

The Ranger ultimately comes down to play/combat style > STR or DEX based?
He'll want enough WIS to cast his spells, minimum 14 (no need to increase). With 6 skills/level he doesn't need INT, a max of 12 is good. CHA is also debatable. If there will be need for a Social Skill Monkey, then it should be around 10. If no Social's, then it can be dumped.
We'll assume a Non-Social Archer build.
Approx.
STR 12
DEX 16
CON 12
INT 10
WIS 14
CHA 7
If going STR-based, then trade some around between STR and DEX.

[HunterOfJello]

Go read this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=251451) entire thread. It's a recent thread that many people have posted in illuminating the whole ability stats process and what low stats really mean. A lower stat array does not mean an underpowered game and higher stat array does not mean an overpowered game. The fact that you even consider what the minimum stats are that you could give your players makes me worry for them.

~


As far as those classes you've listed go:

Wizard
16 Int is a bare minimum in my book. I wouldn't play a wizard if i had only 15 int. I'd play something else.
6 for all other stats

~

Barbarian
16 strength
14 dexterity
14 constitution
6 for all other stats

Barbarians are a bit more MAD, though not as much as the ranger. If they have much lower in any of those stats, they're really going to suffer for it in the long run. A lower strength score will kill them as a class. Strength lower than 14 is horrific for a barbarian.

~

Ranger

the ranger has many playstyles and so their stats vary

14/16 strength
14/16 dexterity
14 constitution
6 intelligence
12/14 wisdom
6 charisma

[WarKitty]

Optimization level? That'll determine how much difference there should be between the statlines in terms of total bonuses.

Barbarian and Ranger should have roughly similar arrays, though.

Barb and Ranger are newbies, although I'm helping them out. Wizard is not a newbie and relatively optimized, and is optimizing for pure illusionist.

Barbarian wants to go your basic strength based build, although I think she'd be annoyed with having to dump everything but strength and con.

Ranger is going archery. Definitely needs to be able to cast spells, only healer we have.

Wizard is focused on illusionist, will probably want decent CHA for bluff as well. I should talk to him about working out a sorc or some variant deal. I think he wants to be cha-focused prepped, which is hard.

I suppose I'm not really looking for minimal overall as minimal in their important scores. I don't want them to look like min-maxed low point buy characters. I do want them to look like they could have been average people, not a bunch of child prodigies.

Edit: Just to clarify, it's about realism and having relatively ordinary people turned adventurer, not about power level per se. I have too hard a time with a world where the average is 10 or 11, yet somehow your 18 whatever character has gone relatively unnoticed through their lives.

[jaybird]

Okay, that helps a lot - no Olympians or Nobel Prize winners, but at the same time, no truly dumped stats.

I assume the Barbarian is going two-handed fighting, by what you said about "typical Str" build? If she wants to do something other then HULK SMASH, she has two main options - reach/control (Int focus) and intimidate (Cha focus). Either way, a 14 in her relevant mental stat will do, though a 12 isn't terrible. Note that she will need 13 Int IIRC to take Combat Expertise, which is required for some of the reach/control options. In addition, a reach/control fighter will need a positive Dex mod to use Combat Reflexes. 16/15 in Str and Con respectively. To up her power some, just bump her Str to 18.

Reach/Control array: 16/12/15/13/10/8, PB 20
Intimidate array: 16/10/15/8/10/14, PB 20

The Ranger's stats are relatively easy - 16 Dex, 15 Str, 14 Wis. 12 Con and everything else in the 8-10 range would be fine. For an increase in power, up the Ranger's Dex to 18.

Ranger array: 15/16/12/8/14/8, PB 18

The Wizard is also decently easy - 17 in Int, 14 in Cha, 12 in Con. If you're willing to do some legwork, I'd suggest converting the 3.5 Beguiler to Pathfinder standard. Otherwise, an Illusion-specialized Wizard will be fine.

Wizard array: 8/10/12/17/10/14, PB 18

Ta-da! The newbies are a little more powerful then the Wizard, but that's okay, because, well...experienced Wizard. Everyone has at least one odd ability score that they can look forward to bumping up at level 4, and they'll all be able to do their jobs without looking like stunted autistic savants!

[navar100]

Why don't you let the players decide for themselves the minimum they need for a stat? It's their characters. If they want an 18, then so be it. They have no need to defend it against those who tsk tsk, roll eyes, or stormwind their roleplaying.

Point buy and dice rolling both have their strengths and weaknesses, the former by how much to give and the latter by luck. With bias, I offer an alternative method that combines both called 27-25-23.

1) Roll 4d6 drop lowest three times. These are your first three scores.
2) Take any number and subtract it 27. That is your fourth score. (Usually max 18, such that a player who rolled a 7 can't do 27 - 7 = 20 but not necessary for those who don't mind, especially for high powered games. I'm guessing you'll prefer to enforce the max 18, which is fine.)
3) Take one of the other numbers and subtract from 25. That is your fifth score.
4) The last number is subtracted from 23 for the sixth score.
5) Add +2 to any one number. (Usually max 18.)
6) Arrange scores as desired and apply racial modifiers. (May prefer to keep max 18, so keep note how scores are arranged.)

Playing a human

Example 1:

1) Rolls: 10, 10, 17
2) 27 - 10 = 17
3) 25 - 17 = 8
4) 23 - 10 = 13
5) 13 + 2 = 15
6) 8 + human +2 = 10

My array is 17, 17, 15, 10, 10, 10
Paladin: ST 17 DX 10 CO 15 IN 10 WI 10 CH 17
I have interesting decisions on where to put level-up ability score increases.

Example 2:

1) Rolls: 11, 13, 10
2) 27 - 10 = 17
3) 25 - 11 = 14
4) 23 - 10 = 13
5) 14 + 2 = 16
6) 16 + human +2 = 18

My array is 18, 17, 13, 13, 11, 10
Wizard: ST 10 DX 13 CO 17 IN 18 WI 13 CH 11

Example 3:

1) Rolls: 15, 10, 11
2) 27 - 11 = 16
3) 25 - 15 = 10
4) 23 - 11 = 12
5) 16 + 2 = 18
6) 12 + human +2 = 14

My array is 18, 15, 14, 12, 11, 10
Druid, will want to utilize wild shape for fighting:
ST 15 DX 12 CO 14 IN 11 WI 18 CH 10

[WarKitty]

Thanks peeps! My typical strategy is to offer several (unordered) arrays of stats that they can choose from. Players choose which array they want and what numbers go where. I've found it avoids both the randomness of rolling and the min-max-y tendencies of point buy. Plus I tend to favor MAD arrays in terms of overall bonus.

@Navar: I'm giving a bit less control because two of my three players are brand new. I actually picked the classes for them (to their specs, of course; e.g. my ranger player came in with "hey I want to play a nature-y archer deal!")

[ericgrau]

Absolute minimum and still playable I'd say:
Wizard: 12 int, 12 con, 10 dex, str 7, wis 7, cha 7 (-8 pb)
Barbarian: 14 str, 12 con, 12 dex, int 7, wis 7, cha 7 (-3 pb)
Ranger: 14 str / 12 dex or 14 dex / 12 str, 10-12 con (10 con at range only), 10-11 wis, int 7, cha 7 (0-2 pb)

For wizards the ability score bump every 4 levels and magic items provide sufficient int for spellcasting. It is possible to make a spell list that isn't heavily dependent on saves, so a high int isn't essential. For rangers magic items provide wis for spellcasting.

Would be nice to have:
Wizard: more int (14+ to start having saves), con, dex, wis; str 8+
Barbarian: more str, con, dex (up to 16 for AC), wis, int 13+ (tripping)
Ranger: more str, dex, con (especially melee, 14+ is nice), wis, ~int

It sounds like for your purposes you should go above the absolute minimum in all stats anyway, even the dump stats. Maybe leave one at 8. In particular people tend to complain about a high stat below 16. Though enough good stats could make a high stat of 14 tolerable, possibly as a second option for MAD classes like ranger.