[3.5] Help with a Sneaky-TWF Skillmonkey build

[RFLS]

Hey, Playgrounders, I'm working on a stealth based TWF-er that acts as the party trapfinder/skillmonkey, with a high focus on Dex and Int. Any or all of this build can be changed, but I'm sticking to the original concept. The only other thing that has to be is that it be playable from level 1.

Here it is:
Strongheart Halfling with the Dark Template from ToM
Rogue 2/Swordsage 2/Rogue 1/Fighter 2.

Feats are:
Level 1- Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Delayed bonus feat)- Weapon Finesse
Level 3- Shadow Blade (ToB)

This feels...very weak, to me. It loses 2 points of BAB in 3 levels, and is already at a -2 for TWF. Does anyone have any suggestions? Fighter's in there because, let's face it, this build is really feat starved.

I have considered going just straight swordsage, but....that doesn't quite work with what I was thinking.

My problem is that this concept, as it is, relies very heavily on taking Shadow Blade, which requires Swordsage levels. This puts me pretty heavily behind in terms of BAB if I take rogue levels early on. If warblade worked, I would certainly use that instead- it has bonuses from Int, and full BAB. However, it doesn't have access to Shadow Hand.

General design thoughts- I want to be able to sneak attack, pump hide and MS, and would prefer to have martial adept levels (I'm a fan of ToB). A 1-level fighter dip is preferred at some point, not only for the feat, but for the ACF that grants +2 initiative and Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents. Also, I'd prefer to avoid spell use. I want this to be a strictly martial character. Uhm...that about wraps it up. I apologize for the rambling wall of text. If something's unclear, ask about it. I probably goofed what I was saying.

Here are my questions-
1- General one- Is there a better way to do this?
2- I'm considering a 3 level dip into Swashbuckler. Yes/no?
3- Is there a way to get a stance from a school you don't have access to? The only way I have found is to take Martial Study and Martial Stance. This seems...very feat heavy for not much gain.

[dspeyer]

Fractional BAB rules will help. Most GMs allow them.

You might consider ranger. Full BAB, good skills, free TWF and if you know enough about the campaign to make it work, either favored enemy or favored environment can give nice bonuses.

You might also consider factotum. Adding int to dex-based skills is huge at low levels.

Swashbuckler's probably not worth it. There just isn't much there.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Factotum in Dungeonscape is probably your best choice for a dedicated skillmonkey, because it can be whatever you want it to be in addition to that. Its damage is decidedly mediocre, especially for TWF, but Knowledge Devotion (CC) helps a lot. There's also the combo of using the Iaijutsu Focus skill (OA) plus the Gnome Quickrazor (RoS) and casting (Wand of) Grease to make opponents flat-footed (per the Balance skill), but it's extremely gimmicky and easy to counter/avoid if your DM doesn't like it.

Ranger can get Trapfinding and Disable Device at 1st level via an alternate class feature in Dungeonscape, and get Tumble instead of Ride (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) while you're at it. For a TWF build you could combine it with the Scout base class in CV and get the feat Swift Hunter from CS to get Skirmish bonuses for your Ranger levels. You'll want the feat Travel Devotion (CC) to be able to move and still full attack, so the obvious choice would be a dip in Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) and you can get that instead of one of your domains. Trade the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion while you're at it, and for your last one I'd get Undeath for Extra Turning. The BAB loss for Cloistered Cleric is offset by Knowledge Devotion, which always gives at least +1 to attack and damage with only one rank in each relevant Knowledge skill.

Wilderness Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogueVariantWilderness Rogue) is actually considerably better than the PHB Rogue due to special ability choices, and if you're not taking many levels in it I'd prefer Feat Rogue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#rogue) over the PHB version. If you're going to use sneak attack at all, I'd highly recommend using Whisper Gnome (RoS) with the Extra Silence and Silencing Strike racial feats.

There's also Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b), which can get the absolute best TWF ability in the game: Mind Cripple. Psychic Assassin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723d) can also get that, and you can go something like Feat Rogue 4/ Psion 1 or Spellthief 1/ Psion 4, then take Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm) 9 for an extremely capable character. Spellthief can use Wands of any Wizard spells you'd get access to, including Wraithstrike. With Psion tricks you can be extremely resilient (Psicrystal + Share Pain + Vigor shared), and you can get tons of utility that would otherwise be unavailable. If you have a cooperative DM you could ask to trade the Death Attack class feature in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites. Human plus Able Learner makes it a lot easier to keep up your skill ranks on a build with a lot of multiclassing.

[Devmaar]

If you take Unarmed rather than regular Swordsage you'll meet the qualifications for snap kick. That'll let you apply Sneak Attack twice on a standard action attack

[RFLS]

Fractional BAB rules will help. Most GMs allow them.

You might consider ranger. Full BAB, good skills, free TWF and if you know enough about the campaign to make it work, either favored enemy or favored environment can give nice bonuses.

You might also consider factotum. Adding int to dex-based skills is huge at low levels.

Swashbuckler's probably not worth it. There just isn't much there.

Ooh, thank you. I had forgotten about fractional BAB. That helps a bunch with this.

For ranger...yeah, I've been looking at that. More on that in a second.

I'm not a big fan of factotum in general, and it doesn't really fit what I had in my head for this. Part of it's the spellcasting it gets, which I'm averse to with this build, but...I dunno. I will keep it in mind.


Factotum in Dungeonscape is probably your best choice for a dedicated skillmonkey, because it can be whatever you want it to be in addition to that. Its damage is decidedly mediocre, especially for TWF, but Knowledge Devotion (CC) helps a lot. There's also the combo of using the Iaijutsu Focus skill (OA) plus the Gnome Quickrazor (RoS) and casting (Wand of) Grease to make opponents flat-footed (per the Balance skill), but it's extremely gimmicky and easy to counter/avoid if your DM doesn't like it.

Ranger can get Trapfinding and Disable Device at 1st level via an alternate class feature in Dungeonscape, and get Tumble instead of Ride while you're at it. For a TWF build you could combine it with the Scout base class in CV and get the feat Swift Hunter from CS to get Skirmish bonuses for your Ranger levels. You'll want the feat Travel Devotion (CC) to be able to move and still full attack, so the obvious choice would be a dip in Cloistered Cleric and you can get that instead of one of your domains. Trade the Knowledge domain for Knowledge Devotion while you're at it, and for your last one I'd get Undeath for Extra Turning. The BAB loss for Cloistered Cleric is offset by Knowledge Devotion, which always gives at least +1 to attack and damage with only one rank in each relevant Knowledge skill.

Wilderness Rogue is actually considerably better than the PHB Rogue due to special ability choices, and if you're not taking many levels in it I'd prefer Feat Rogue over the PHB version. If you're going to use sneak attack at all, I'd highly recommend using Whisper Gnome (RoS) with the Extra Silence and Silencing Strike racial feats.

There's also Psychic Rogue, which can get the absolute best TWF ability in the game: Mind Cripple. Psychic Assassin can also get that, and you can go something like Feat Rogue 4/ Psion 1 or Spellthief 1/ Psion 4, then take Psychic Assassin 6/ Slayer 9 for an extremely capable character. Spellthief can use Wands of any Wizard spells you'd get access to, including Wraithstrike. With Psion tricks you can be extremely resilient (Psicrystal + Share Pain + Vigor shared), and you can get tons of utility that would otherwise be unavailable. If you have a cooperative DM you could ask to trade the Death Attack class feature in exchange for ignoring the alignment and special prerequisites. Human plus Able Learner makes it a lot easier to keep up your skill ranks on a build with a lot of multiclassing.

See above for Factotum. As for Iajustsu and Grease casting.... Not going the gimicky route on this one. I don't like it in general, and this is for a DM that will throw the book at me for such a thing.

The Ranger ACF's you mentioned are definitely helpful here. Again, more on that in a second. Scout would also be good, since this is a very mobile build. I'm probably going to go pretty far with Rogue, so I'll take the SA variety. Wilderness Rogue...does not get me anything. I already have HiPS, and prefer the skills offered by the normal variant.

For your last paragraph+Cloistered Cleric suggestion, as much as they might fit in a "do sneaky things" way, this is a non-casting character.


If you take Unarmed rather than regular Swordsage you'll meet the qualifications for snap kick. That'll let you apply Sneak Attack twice on a standard action attack

I will keep this in mind. I'm already looking at putting the aptitude enchantment on a pair of kukris and going nuts that way.

Right now, I'm wondering if Ranger 2/Warblade 1/Rogue X would fly. The Warblade levels can be changed/split up, and there's definitely room for PrCs. Feats would be something like this-
1. Weapon Finesse
1. Martial Study (Shadow Jaunt)
2. (Bonus) TWF
3. Martial Stance (Child of Shadow), retrain Martial Study as itself to re-ready it as a Warblade manuever.
6. Shadow Blade

I feel like I'm missing a few things there, but it gets TWF, Dex to-hit/damage, and free jumps as a standard action (HA. Been after that trick for a while. Best I could do before now was Horizon Walker 6). It also lets me use HiPS as long as I'm in the Child of Shadow stance, which is just amazing for SA.

EDIT: If I go feat rogue and give up on SA, then I'll probably go crit fishing with kukris, mostly advance Warblade with Tiger Claw manuevers, and dip Rogue 4 over the course of the game to get skills/3 extra feats.

...did anyone consider that Feat Rogue is strictly better than Fighter? Like...anyone at all? >.< WotC for the win.

EDIT-EDIT: Good point- Delay a feat until level 3 to pick it up. Makes sense in character, as that's the first warblade level. "got his martial adept training from a cross-classed SS/warblade" etc. etc. blah blah blah.

[Devmaar]

At level 1 you don't have the Initiator Level for Shadow Jaunt

[God Imperror]

The only other thing that has to be is that it be playable from level 1.

Here it is:
Strongheart Halfling with the Dark Template from ToM
Rogue 2/Swordsage 2/Rogue 1/Fighter 2.

Feats are:
Level 1- Two-Weapon Fighting
Level 2 (Delayed bonus feat)- Weapon Finesse
Level 3- Shadow Blade (ToB)

General design thoughts- I want to be able to sneak attack, pump hide and MS, and would prefer to have martial adept levels (I'm a fan of ToB). A 1-level fighter dip is preferred at some point, not only for the feat, but for the ACF that grants +2 initiative and Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents. Also, I'd prefer to avoid spell use. I want this to be a strictly martial character. Uhm...that about wraps it up. I apologize for the rambling wall of text. If something's unclear, ask about it. I probably goofed what I was saying.

Here are my questions-
1- General one- Is there a better way to do this?
2- I'm considering a 3 level dip into Swashbuckler. Yes/no?
3- Is there a way to get a stance from a school you don't have access to? The only way I have found is to take Martial Study and Martial Stance. This seems...very feat heavy for not much gain.

Uhm... I would probably take the levels in swashbuckler (if you have a good int)

First of all do you have multiclassing penalties? (I will assume that no)
Second of all the following build even if playtested by me might not be the strongest nor the most optimal, consider it an adapt it as you see fit.

You should to take 3 at least levels of rogue because a melee rogue is vastly improved by penetrating strike (ACF dungeonscape)
Two weapon fighting is greatly enhanced with swashbuckler an its ACF Swift and deadly (DotU) let's you move after full attack and shield of blades (PHB II) helps your AC. So take as many levels of swashbuckler as you can afford using daring outlaw to progress sneak attack.
As pointed by yourself a fighter dip gets several things with the ACF from DotU
As pointed above to a swordsage dip grants maneuvers and a 1st level stance and can be used to get snap kick.
You might want to consider (if every book is available) Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure as it has a dark creature template a bit stronger than the one from tome of magic.

With that said I suggest the following:
lvl 1 Swashbuckler: Weapon finesse (Swashbuckler bonus), Two weapon fighting (lvl 1 feat), Dark stalker (strongheart bonus feat)
lvl 2 Rogue: Sneak attack (+1d6), trapfinding
lvl 3 Unarmed Swordsage: Quick to act +1, discipline focus (shadow hand), Improved Unarmed strike (Unarmed swordsage bonus), Shadow blade (lvl 3 feat)
lvl 4 Rogue: Evasion
lvl 5 Rogue: Sneak attack (+2D6), penetrating strike
lvl 6 Swashbuckler: Grace +1, Daring outlaw (lvl 6 feat), (sneak attack (+3d6) due to daring outlaw)
lvl 7 Swashbuckler: Insightful strike
lvl 8 Swashbuckler: Sneak attack +4d6
lvl 9 Fighter: Hit and run tactics ACF, Martial stance (assassin's stance) (fighter bonus feat), Staggering strike (lvl 9 feat) sneak attack (+6D6)

You only lose two BAB (if you use fractional only one), you have more sneak attack than a rogue of your level, as long as you use shadow hand weapons you have dex to damage (instead of str) and weapon focus, you can deal half your sneak attack damage to creatures immune to it, if you deal sneak attack damage creatures are going to be staggered (they can only take one action, no full attack), you have int to damage, weapon finesse for free, and you also deal your dex modifier as a bonus damage if the enemy is flat footed.

You should buy gloves of the balanced hand (Magic item compendium to gain improved two weapon fighting) and bracers of murder (Drow of the underdark reroll ones from sneak attack damage).

If you progress as an swashbuckler at level 12 you would have swift and deadly (5 feet step as a swift action) and if you focus on breaking tumble you may be able to beat reliably a 40 DC check allowing (per OA) to move 10 feet per 5 feet step (so 20 feet a round while still full attacking, or 10 feet full attack, 10 feet away)

Unfortunately there are no ways of making move silently a class skill that I know, for that you might consider being human and moving the rogue level to first and taking able learner. If flaws are on the table craven (champions of ruin adds damage potential, though I don't really like it)

[RFLS]

Uhm... I would probably take the levels in swashbuckler (if you have a good int)

First of all do you have multiclassing penalties? (I will assume that no)
Second of all the following build even if playtested by me might not be the strongest nor the most optimal, consider it an adapt it as you see fit.

You should to take 3 at least levels of rogue because a melee rogue is vastly improved by penetrating strike (ACF dungeonscape)
Two weapon fighting is greatly enhanced with swashbuckler an its ACF Swift and deadly (DotU) let's you move after full attack and shield of blades (PHB II) helps your AC. So take as many levels of swashbuckler as you can afford using daring outlaw to progress sneak attack.
As pointed by yourself a fighter dip gets several things with the ACF from DotU
As pointed above to a swordsage dip grants maneuvers and a 1st level stance and can be used to get snap kick.
You might want to consider (if every book is available) Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave adventure as it has a dark creature template a bit stronger than the one from tome of magic.

With that said I suggest the following:
lvl 1 Swashbuckler: Weapon finesse (Swashbuckler bonus), Two weapon fighting (lvl 1 feat), Dark stalker (strongheart bonus feat)
lvl 2 Rogue: Sneak attack (+1d6), trapfinding
lvl 3 Unarmed Swordsage: Quick to act +1, discipline focus (shadow hand), Improved Unarmed strike (Unarmed swordsage bonus), Shadow blade (lvl 3 feat)
lvl 4 Rogue: Evasion
lvl 5 Rogue: Sneak attack (+2D6), penetrating strike
lvl 6 Swashbuckler: Grace +1, Daring outlaw (lvl 6 feat), (sneak attack (+3d6) due to daring outlaw)
lvl 7 Swashbuckler: Insightful strike
lvl 8 Swashbuckler: Sneak attack +4d6
lvl 9 Fighter: Hit and run tactics ACF, Martial stance (assassin's stance) (fighter bonus feat), Staggering strike (lvl 9 feat) sneak attack (+6D6)

You only lose two BAB (if you use fractional only one), you have more sneak attack than a rogue of your level, as long as you use shadow hand weapons you have dex to damage (instead of str) and weapon focus, you can deal half your sneak attack damage to creatures immune to it, if you deal sneak attack damage creatures are going to be staggered (they can only take one action, no full attack), you have int to damage, weapon finesse for free, and you also deal your dex modifier as a bonus damage if the enemy is flat footed.

You should buy gloves of the balanced hand (Magic item compendium to gain improved two weapon fighting) and bracers of murder (Drow of the underdark reroll ones from sneak attack damage).

If you progress as an swashbuckler at level 12 you would have swift and deadly (5 feet step as a swift action) and if you focus on breaking tumble you may be able to beat reliably a 40 DC check allowing (per OA) to move 10 feet per 5 feet step (so 20 feet a round while still full attacking, or 10 feet full attack, 10 feet away)

Unfortunately there are no ways of making move silently a class skill that I know, for that you might consider being human and moving the rogue level to first and taking able learner. If flaws are on the table craven (champions of ruin adds damage potential, though I don't really like it)

I do not have penalties for multiclassing, fortunately. Right now, I'm considering finding other ways than swordsage to gain concealment in order to sneak, but I may come back to swordsage. I'm also thinking, considering the emphasis on TWF this build has, that I should be relying on SA for damage, and not bothering with Dex to damage, as nice as it would be. I'm also going to ask about modifying Carmendine Monk for swordsage, as that would fit the concept a little better.

Does this work alright? It's still dipping SS and going for Dex to damage.

Level 1: Rogue: Two-weapon Fighting (1st level), Daring Outlaw (bonus feat)
Level 2: Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
Level 3: Swashbuckler (Grace), Staggering Strike
Level 4: Swashbuckler (Int to Damage)
Level 5: Rogue
Level 6: Swordsage: Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Shadow Blade
Level 7: Fighter: Improved TWF
Level 8: Rogue
Level 9: Rogue: Carmendine Monk
Level 10: Swordsage: Int to AC (Hopefully)
Level 11: Swordsage
Level 12: Swordsage: Insightful Strikes (Int on strikes? Maybe? DM dependent), /feat-for-full-round-action-change-readied-manuevers/
Level 13: Fighter: Greater TWF
Level 14 and beyond- Be sneaky. Nightsong enforcer, maybe. Idk.

EDIT: This relies heavily on the DM saying that you can use Carmendine Monk with SS, but it's the best I've got.

[Gwendol]

Your feats are taken at the wrong levels. Daring outlaw has a 2d6 SA damage and grace +1 pre-req. Staggering strike requires BAB +6.
Also, you should probably consider the Craven feat (bonus to SA damage) and the penetrating strike ACF (half SA to targets normally immune).

The two fighter levels means you will miss out on SA damage and swash level advancement. I'd consider dropping them and advance either daring outlaw class instead (swash for BAB and HD, rogue for skills).

[RFLS]

Your feats are taken at the wrong levels. Daring outlaw has a 2d6 SA damage and grace +1 pre-req. Staggering strike requires BAB +6.
Also, you should probably consider the Craven feat (bonus to SA damage) and the penetrating strike ACF (half SA to targets normally immune).

The two fighter levels means you will miss out on SA damage and swash level advancement. I'd consider dropping them and advance either daring outlaw class instead (swash for BAB and HD, rogue for skills).

Yes, the ACF was assumed, as is the fighter ACF that grants Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents.

Level 1: Rogue: Two-weapon Fighting (1st level), Darkstalker
Level 2: Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
Level 3: Swashbuckler (Grace), Craven
Level 4: Swashbuckler (Int to Damage)
Level 5: Rogue
Level 6: Swordsage: Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Shadow Blade
Level 7: Fighter: Improved TWF
Level 8: Rogue
Level 9: Rogue: Daring Outlaw
Level 10: Swordsage: Int to AC (Hopefully)
Level 11: Swordsage
Level 12: Swordsage: Insightful Strikes (Int on strikes? Maybe? DM dependent), Carmendine Monk (With DM approval)
Level 13: Fighter: Greater TWF

How does that work, instead? The fighter levels are to pick up the TWF feats. Not dropping them, unless there's a clearly better alternative. I'm not advancing Swashbuckler past 3. It doesn't fit with the character I have in mind and I don't want the bonuses it gives. Rogue will probably be advanced some more. I might pick up 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer to grab an extra 1d6 SA.

[Gwendol]

Staggering strike is likely something you will want before the TWF feats (asap, really). I fail to see the huge gains from more TWF feats; while getting extra attacks is nice the penalties are prohibitive and you're still required to full attack, which means you need to either drop or incapacitate your opponent, or get means to move out of the way after full attacking.

I'd use snap kick instead, as it gives an extra attack without the hefty penalties to hit from ITWF and GTWF.

[RFLS]

Hey, Playgrounders, I'm working on a stealth based TWF-er that acts as the party trapfinder/skillmonkey, with a high focus on Dex and Int. Any or all of this build can be changed, but I'm sticking to the original concept. The only other thing that has to be is that it be playable from level 1.

If I wanted a massive number of attacks per round, I'd go Imp. Crit Kukri, Lightning Maces, Snap Kick, and buy a pair of aptitude Kukris.

I can't see somewhere to fit Staggering Strike in as-is. I'm looking for enchantments to take some of the requirements off of my feat load.

EDIT: If Carmendine Monk comes off the table, then staggering strike goes in there. But then, if that comes off the table, the build suffers a lot.

[God Imperror]

Yes, the ACF was assumed, as is the fighter ACF that grants Dex to damage against flat-footed opponents.

Level 1: Rogue: Two-weapon Fighting (1st level), Darkstalker
Level 2: Swashbuckler (Weapon Finesse)
Level 3: Swashbuckler (Grace), Craven
Level 4: Swashbuckler (Int to Damage)
Level 5: Rogue
Level 6: Swordsage: Weapon Focus (Shadow Hand), Shadow Blade
Level 7: Fighter: Improved TWF
Level 8: Rogue
Level 9: Rogue: Daring Outlaw
Level 10: Swordsage: Int to AC (Hopefully)
Level 11: Swordsage
Level 12: Swordsage: Insightful Strikes (Int on strikes? Maybe? DM dependent), Carmendine Monk (With DM approval)
Level 13: Fighter: Greater TWF

How does that work, instead? The fighter levels are to pick up the TWF feats. Not dropping them, unless there's a clearly better alternative. I'm not advancing Swashbuckler past 3. It doesn't fit with the character I have in mind and I don't want the bonuses it gives. Rogue will probably be advanced some more. I might pick up 1 level of Nightsong Enforcer to grab an extra 1d6 SA.

Are you starting at level 13? I thought you started at level 1, your build is really hard to play at first level, not strong until lvl 6 and doesn't benefit from carmendine monk until level 12 (considering it affects retroactively your class features)

A few more specific points on the build:

-You don't have BAB of 6 at seventh level (needed for improved two weapon fighting) since you took 2 levels of rogue and a level of swordsage in between (unless you are using partial bab, are you using partial bab?). I guess so because you don't have a BAB of 11 at thirteenth level either. Additionally you can get improved two weapon fighting from an item.

-Seriously reconsider the swashbuckler it gives D10 for HD, full BAB and advances SA. As you are going to be using tho weapon fighting full BAB is a really big bonus. If it is due to character concept and you have a problem justifying that the class is named swashbuckler reconsider having craven (that requires to be a coward) and daring outlaw (that requires to be daring) in the same build. Similarly read over the fluff of the zealots of the written word a monk order. If refluffing is ok you can refluff anything you want.

-IMHO if you are taking so many levels of fighter or swordsage (read not swashbuckler or rogue) then daring outlaw is not worth it. As it is in your current build it gives you +2D6 of Sneak attack.

-Finally you get 6 attacks (assuming partial BAB) at 9/9/4/4/-1/-1 but lose all attacks (but one) if you move and you don't have a reliable source of movement that can work around that. You have dex to hit (starting at level 2, at first level you aren't going to hit), int to damage (starting at level 4, before you aren't much of a threat), dex to damage (starting at level 6), dex to damage against flat footed enemies (starting at level 7) and a total of 6d6 SA (at lvl 13).

[RFLS]

Are you starting at level 13? I thought you started at level 1, your build is really hard to play at first level, not strong until lvl 6 and doesn't benefit from carmendine monk until level 12 (considering it affects retroactively your class features)

-You don't have BAB of 6 at seventh level (needed for improved two weapon fighting) since you took 2 levels of rogue and a level of swordsage in between (unless you are using partial bab, are you using partial bab?). I guess so because you don't have a BAB of 11 at thirteenth level either. Additionally you can get improved two weapon fighting from an item.

Partial BAB is in effect. We're starting at level 1.


-Seriously reconsider the swashbuckler it gives D10 for HD, full BAB and advances SA. As you are going to be using tho weapon fighting full BAB is a really big bonus. If it is due to character concept and you have a problem justifying that the class is named swashbuckler reconsider having craven (that requires to be a coward) and daring outlaw (that requires to be daring) in the same build. Similarly read over the fluff of the zealots of the written word a monk order. If refluffing is ok you can refluff anything you want.

Refluffling is generally fine as far as I'm aware. The swashbuckler class features (the mechanical effects) are not what I want. That class is very much a front line fighter; I'm after stealth and skill.


-IMHO if you are taking so many levels of fighter or swordsage (read not swashbuckler or rogue) then daring outlaw is not worth it. As it is in your current build it gives you +2D6 of Sneak attack.

You're probably correct here. It honestly feels like throwing good after bad, but I couldn't come up with a better way to pack everything in, and that Int to damage is very, very appealing. I might end up taking Staggering Strike here instead.


-Finally you get 6 attacks (assuming partial BAB) at 9/9/4/4/-1/-1 but lose all attacks (but one) if you move and you don't have a reliable source of movement that can work around that. You have dex to hit (starting at level 2, at first level you aren't going to hit), int to damage (starting at level 4, before you aren't much of a threat), dex to damage (starting at level 6), dex to damage against flat footed enemies (starting at level 7) and a total of 6d6 SA (at lvl 13).

Tiger Claw offers some help in this department, especially the manuevers that let you use Jump to move as a swift action and the other that lets you move and hit with both weapons once.

I'm considering starting with Combat Reflexes and retraining it at level 2. I should have a pair of masterwork short swords by then, so that's Dex+1 to hit with both, which deals with the problem you've discussed. The retraining is allowed per PHB2, as I qualified for TWF at the time of the original feat. The 6d6 SA is only 1 SA die behind normal, and I'll have SS levels, which adds 2d6 when I want it.


Overall, if there were a way I could pull this off by going straight rogue/swordsage, I'd probably do it, but it's really, really feat-starved. I suppose I could go something like this, but it doesn't focus as heavily on Int.

Rogue 1: TWF, Darkstalker
Rogue 2
Rogue 3: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 4
Rogue 5
Swordsage 6: Carmendine Monk
Swordsage 7:
Fighter 8: Imp. TWF
Swordsage 9: Shadow Blade
Swordsage 10

Etcetera etcetera. That feels a little weaker, tbh.

[God Imperror]

Partial BAB is in effect. We're starting at level 1.

That's good.


Refluffling is generally fine as far as I'm aware. The swashbuckler class features (the mechanical effects) are not what I want. That class is very much a front line fighter; I'm after stealth and skill.

Then it is not a bad thing if your character ends not being a front line fighter is it?


You're probably correct here. It honestly feels like throwing good after bad, but I couldn't come up with a better way to pack everything in, and that Int to damage is very, very appealing. I might end up taking Staggering Strike here instead.

Staggering strike is good.


Tiger Claw offers some help in this department, especially the manuevers that let you use Jump to move as a swift action and the other that lets you move and hit with both weapons once.

Swordsage has really crappy recovery so you might be able to pull the jump once per encounter, and hitting with both weapons is probably not really great if you have great two weapon fighting.


I'm considering starting with Combat Reflexes and retraining it at level 2. I should have a pair of masterwork short swords by then, so that's Dex+1 to hit with both, which deals with the problem you've discussed. The retraining is allowed per PHB2, as I qualified for TWF at the time of the original feat. The 6d6 SA is only 1 SA die behind normal, and I'll have SS levels, which adds 2d6 when I want it.

The 6d6 is considering the extra 2d6 from assassin's stance (without it it's 4d6)


Overall, if there were a way I could pull this off by going straight rogue/swordsage, I'd probably do it, but it's really, really feat-starved. I suppose I could go something like this, but it doesn't focus as heavily on Int.

Rogue 1: TWF, Darkstalker
Rogue 2
Rogue 3: Weapon Finesse
Rogue 4
Rogue 5
Swordsage 6: Carmendine Monk
Swordsage 7:
Fighter 8: Imp. TWF
Swordsage 9: Shadow Blade
Swordsage 10

Etcetera etcetera. That feels a little weaker, tbh.

Why carmendine monk then? I mean you don't really need int there.

[RFLS]

So, I'm building this for a particular character concept I have in mind. Smart, fast, and not much else. As such, I'll be pumping Int and Dex and not much else. This is most definitely a case of function following form.

At this point, I can be persuaded to stop going after TWF. It doesn't affect the character much, and it's a big pain to try to work in, mechanics-wise.

For the swordsage's crappy recovery mechanic...yeah, I know :smallannoyed: Sadly, it's the only class with access to the Shadow Hand school, which I want for the concealment stance, the assasin's stance, and the shadow jaunt set of manuevers. Given that, as well as Carmendine Monk's nice bonus to the SS class (if allowed), it's very hard to NOT go swordsage. However, I understand how going rogue/swordsage discourages TWFing. I'm fine with the character not having the stamina for a long fight. In fact, it fits.

Swordsage 1: Carmendine Monk
Rogue 2: Weapon Finesse (Delayed bonus feat)
Rogue 3: Shadow Blade
Rogue 4: Penetrating Strike ACF
Rogue 5:
Swordsage 6: Craven
Fighter 7: Drow Fighter ACF, SA variant Fighter, and Thug Variant

This ends up with Int to AC, Dex to-hit/damage, Dex to damage again against flat-footed opponents, half SA to those normally immune, character level on SA, and SA 3d6, not counting Assassin's Stance.

EDIT: Probably pick up Adaptive Style at level 9.

[God Imperror]

Not to be an ass but you cannot get assassin's stance with your current build. You need initiatior level 5 to pick a third level stance. When you got your second level of swordsage you had initiator level 4.

On the other hand you are probably going to be better fit with this build :smallsmile:

[RFLS]

I'm aware- There's at least one more level of swordsage after that. Mostly, the point was that it doesn't fall too far behind on SA die, and swordsage can make it up.

EDIT: To clarify, there's at least one more level of swordsage in the overall build.