Good Archer (PF Kingmaker)

[Valdras]

Hey Guys,

It looks like in the next fight we are having in our campaign there might be a few character deaths, as we have decided that our merry group of level 2 characters will be heading straight for the Stag Lord's encampment, and I remember seeing something about we should be level 4 before heading that way... The DM did try to steer us away, but there are quite a few stubborn players. lol

So in the case of my poor Baldrick (fighter 1/Barbarian 1) demise, I am thinking of making an Archer, because I'm sick of being on the front line :).

I've been looking at classes, and I think a Zen Archer (monk) with a 3 level dip (at some point) in Archer(fighter) would be the best Archer I could make.

What is everyone else’s opinions?

[grarrrg]

I've been looking at classes, and I think a Zen Archer (monk) with a 3 level dip (at some point) in Archer(fighter) would be the best Archer I could make.

What is everyone else’s opinions?

Zen Archer is best at/after level 3 when the WIS kicks in. Otherwise you'll have to A: Suffer, or B: invest in DEX until you get to level 3.
Other than that, Zen is arguably the best archer.

The overall best archers are (no particular order)
Zen Archer Monk: WIS-based and NO REQ BONUS FEATS (and, more Bonus feats than a similar level Fighter would have for the first few levels)

Archer Fighter: Bonus feats, Weapon Training, and Combat Maneuvers at range.

Ranger: Any archetype that keeps Favored Enemy and can take the Archery/Bow combat style. Get a Wand of Instant Enemy (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/instant-enemy) ASAP and go to town.

Divine Hunter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo---paladin-archetypes/divine-hunter) Paladin: Smite Evil + Archery is great. But the other abilities function best in a more Archer-Heavy party.

Inquisitor: Any archetype. The main draws are the flexible Judgment bonus, and the 2/3 Divine Caster.


Zen Archer loses steam around level 8-to-10, so Multiclassing with any of the above (minus Paladin) should work fine.

[Bhaakon]

Zen archer is good once you take the third level and get Wis to hit. I would definitely advise you NOT to multiclass out of it until after level 5, the level 3-5 abilities are just too good to delay. When you do multiclass out, I'd suggest inquisitor, as the bane and judgement class feature give you the bonus damage that ranged builds are always hurting for (plus it's also Wisdom-centric, and gets spell). The big problem, though, is that zen archers just aren't that good at level 2.

If you want the best possible archer at second level, you're looking at a ranger with a well-chosen favored enemy (I'm not sure what the best choice is for kingmaker in general, let alone this particular encounter). A paladin or luring cavalier can be a good choice as well, but their lack of feats at level 2 hurts archery builds more than the 1/day smite or challenge help.

[Akal Saris]

Actually, L6 in zen archer is also clutch: you get Weapon Spec & a bonus feat that will be improved precise shot. Even then I'd just go zen archer 20 rather than start another class: you're advancing monk AC, ki usage, perfect strikes, favored class, and flurry by staying with it.

For Kingmaker, though, a paladin might be good if your group needs somebody with a good Charisma to be the ruler.

[Ravens_cry]

Heck, I personally think Vanilla Paladin (with perhaps Oath of Vengeance for extra smites) makes a better archer than Divine Hunter if you can get the feats. Human should help if you are starting at level 1.
In my experience, Kingmaker is nova build friendly as encounters tend to be pretty infrequent from an in-universe perspective. Something else to think about.

[Valdras]

Wow that was quick.

Thank you all for the quick replies.

We have a Cha 20 sorcerer who is positioned for the Kingship, so I wouldn't want to steal his spotlight.

So Zen Archer til 6-8?

Is arcane Archer any good?

I would take some Empyreal Seeker (sorcerer) levels to get it, but I don't know if its any good.

[Crossblade]

In my experience, Kingmaker is nova build friendly as encounters tend to be pretty infrequent from an in-universe perspective. Something else to think about.

As a DM that did books 1 and 2, I can say this is true for the start. Looking at books 3 and beyond; there are quite a few more big dungeons that may not allow this.

[Valdras]

Nova Build friendly?

What's a Nova Build?

[Hazzardevil]

Nova Build friendly?

What's a Nova Build?

It's a turn from MMO's where you make a character that does a ton of damage in a short period of time and then waits a while to do it again.

[Crasical]

Basically, since combat will be very nfrequent and you won't usually have multiple fights per day, there's no reason not to blow most of your powers in one encounter.

[molten_dragon]

The whole zen archery thing has already been mentioned.

You can also make good archers out of clerics and artificers.

Scouts aren't too bad at archery either.

Or if your DM would allow it, I homebrewed a ToB-style archer you could try out. Link is in my sig if you're interested.

[Andvare]

The whole zen archery thing has already been mentioned.

You can also make good archers out of clerics and artificers.

Scouts aren't too bad at archery either.

Or if your DM would allow it, I homebrewed a ToB-style archer you could try out. Link is in my sig if you're interested.

Neither Scouts nor Clerics are all that hot as archers in Pathfinder IMHO.

[RndmNumGen]

I would highly recommend Inquisitor on there somewhere. Especially once you hit level 5, being able to throw up Judgement + Bane can net you between +2 through +4 on your attack rolls and +2+2d6 to +6+2d6 on damage, depending on where you place your judgement.

That's up to +18 damage per arrow, by the way. Rapid Shot + Many Shot = Delicious.

Just make sure to take the Preacher archtype, as you won't be getting much use from teamwork feats(not even the cool ones like Target of Opportunity; I have a level 11 Inquisitor and I've benefited from that feat what... 5 times?)

[molten_dragon]

Neither Scouts nor Clerics are all that hot as archers in Pathfinder IMHO.

Whoops, I missed that it was pathfinder. I was thinking 3.5

[Blisstake]

Inquistors make amazing archers, but you want to multiclass as little as possible out of them. However, I could see 3 levels in Zen Archer first as being appropriate... it's actually the one archery build I've never tried, though (and probably never will).

My favorite is the vanilla fighter. You get access to a lot of luxury feats like the Snap Shot line, where other archers may not be able to get it with their feat allotment, or would have to wait until later levels. Archer and Weapon Master archetypes are also pretty good, but I hate how they lose out on armor training. As an archer, you're going to have high dexterity, so why not make the best out of it?

Also, another thing going for fighters is their significant bonuses to hit from weapon training and Greater Weapon Focus allows them to pretty much always use Deadly Aim.

[grarrrg]

Nova Build friendly?
What's a Nova Build?

Basically what was said earlier, spending most of you liimited abilities all in 1 encounter instead of trying to space them out for multiple encounters. It mostly applies to Casters, as they have the most limited 'big stuff'.

A Caster would use all his high level slots (Quickened!).
For a Paladin this would mean using all/most of his Smites/Channels/Spells.
A Fighter can't really Nova due to the fact he has NO "#/day" powers.


I would highly recommend Inquisitor on there somewhere. Especially once you hit level 5...

That's up to +18 damage per arrow, by the way. Rapid Shot + Many Shot = Delicious.

Well, if he takes 6-ish level of Monk first, he won't get Bane until level 11 at the earliest, also, since he is a Zen Archer replace "Rapid Shot + Many Shot" with "Flurry of Bows".


So Zen Archer til 6-8?

Is arcane Archer any good?

I would take some Empyreal Seeker (sorcerer) levels to get it, but I don't know if its any good.

That is a very solid, and often recommended build, for Zen Archer.
Keep in mind that Arcane Archer needs 6 Bab for entry, so the best entry would be Monk 8/Sorcerer 1.
I would skip the Seeker archetype though, unless your INT is decent (skills) and you need a Trap-Monkey.

[PinkysBrain]

Apart from the delayed access to manyshot it's very hard to rival an inquisitor for damage ... at level 8 with manyshot, bane and second judgement only the smiting paladin is going to beat her, but smite has more restrictions.

[Baroncognito]

What about Fighter (archer) 5, Halfling Opportunist 5, Rogue 10?

[grarrrg]

What about Fighter (archer) 5, Halfling Opportunist 5, Rogue 10?

To elaborate for those confused, what I think is intended here is a Snap Shot AoO build.

The Snap Shot line of feats (basic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/snap-shot-combat)/Improved (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-snap-shot-combat)) allow you to make AoO's with a Ranged weapon up to 15ft away (only 5ft with the basic feat).

Halfling Opportunist is a Halfling only PrC that gives 2d6 Sneak Atack, and at level 5 you automatically add your Sneak damage to ALL AoO's.

For the Rogue part of the build, I'd recommend taking the Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/swashbuckler) archetype so you can turn 2 Talents into Combat Feats.

Also, the Fighter part of the build could be swapped out for any of the other archer-classes discussed here. But Fighter is the preferred option due to the Bonus Feats/Bab.

Zen Archer is less desirable, as you would still need a high DEX to be able to make a lot of AoO's, which partly defeats the purpose of taking Zen Archer anyway. You'd also have to 'double up' by taking the Rapid Shot feat, even though Flurry of Bows does virtually the same thing.

Although...a Zen Archer 3/Fighter 2/Halfling Opportunist 5 would get 2 bonus feats from Fighter, and LOTS of bonus feats from Monk (about 5), including the oh-so-nice Point-Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) at level 3.
To finish the build, add more Fighter/Monk/Rogue to taste.



Just for the sake of completeness, I did NOT forget Greater Snap Shot (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/greater-snap-shot-combat), I just didn't bring it up because it only 'enhances' your Snap Shots, it does not let you do anything you couldn't already do.

[Baroncognito]

Rapid Shot would be optional, as Flurry does similar (you would need Rapid Shot if planning on taking Manyshot though).
To finish the build, add more Fighter/Monk/Rogue to taste.

Won't you still need Rapid Shot to take Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot?

[grarrrg]

Won't you still need Rapid Shot to take Snap Shot and Improved Snap Shot?

BAH! Stupid pre-reqs...

[Baroncognito]

I'd like to add that, using the Racial Herital feat, you can be a human halfling opportunist.

Yes, be a 6'4" halfling. Perhaps have light blond hair and name yourself Private Parsnip. In any situation, go around barefoot.

[Baroncognito]

Although...a Zen Archer 3/Fighter 2/Halfling Opportunist 5 would get 2 bonus feats from Fighter, and LOTS of bonus feats from Monk (about 5), including the oh-so-nice Point-Blank Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/point-blank-master-combat) at level 3.
To finish the build, add more Fighter/Monk/Rogue to taste.

That seems to work out a lot better than Fighter 5/Halfling Opportunist 5.

I tried both builds, and the Zen Archer build comes together at level 13, with Improved Snap Shot and Combat Patrol, and gets better at level 14, going up to 25 foot threat with Combat Patrol.

The fighter build hadn't come together by that time.

[Valdras]

I like the Zen Archer (3)/Inquisitor (5) build so far. It has a nice ranged threat and also has a lot of utility. Plus I can just imagine the roleplay that would go with it would be very fun. Especially as I would be Lawful Evil. :).

Hmmm. I almost want to die now... lol.

Wow.. you get a ton of stuff from3 levels of Zen Archer, Point Blank Master, Weapon Focus, Perfect Strike, you use your wisdom for attacking.

[grarrrg]

I like the Zen Archer (3)/Inquisitor (5) build so far. It has a nice ranged threat and also has a lot of utility. Plus I can just imagine the roleplay that would go with it would be very fun. Especially as I would be Lawful Evil. :).

For the Inquisitor levels, I recommend either the Preacher (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/preacher) or Spellbreaker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/spellbreaker) archetypes.
Both trade away Solo Tactics/Teamwork Feats for other bonuses.
There are only _2_ offensive Teamwork feats that work with Ranged attacks, and 1 of them requires other 'archers' in the party.

Either can (usually) stack with other archetypes, so no real concern if you had your eye on another one.

Also, if the group needs a Social Skill Monkey, you can grab the Conversion Inquisition (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/inquisitions/conversion-inquisition) and get WIS to all your Social skills. Combine this with the Inquisitors 6 skills/level and you should be set.


Wow.. you get a ton of stuff from3 levels of Zen Archer, Point Blank Master, Weapon Focus, Perfect Strike, you use your wisdom for attacking.

Yes.
Even without the Wis-to-hit, it is VERY front loaded with the feats, and makes a solid dip for most Archer builds.

[Valdras]

grarrrg, you are the best. Seriously.

I will definately take Preacher. And most likely take Conversion.

Damn... I'm kinda really hoping I die now.. lol

[grarrrg]

grarrrg
AHHHHHH!!!! HE SPELLED MY NAME CORRECTLY!!!
WHAT DO I DO? WHATDOIDOWHATDOIDOWHATDOI*slaps self in face*

OK.
I'm better now.


I will definately take Preacher. And most likely take Conversion.

Damn... I'm kinda really hoping I die now.. lol

Actually, I conceived (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13233869#post13233869) a very similar build not too long ago.

If you REALLY want to be a a Social MONKey, then you need to stack the Infiltrator (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/inquisitor/archetypes/paizo---inquisitor-archetypes/infiltrator) archetype on there as well for a BONUS WIS to Bluff/Diplomacy.
And be a Half-Orc for the Inquisitor favored bonus of +1/2 to Intimidate per level, which stacks with the Inquisitor's Stern Gaze for +1 Intimidate _every level_ (and don't forget Half-Orcs have a Racial bonus of +2 to Intimidate already :smallwink:).

[Valdras]

I copy pasted from your post :P.

Infiltrator removes Stern Gaze though, so I wouldn't want it.

So I will be a Zen Archer Monk/ Heretic Preacher Conversion Inquisitor.

Heretic adds wis to Buff and Stealth, so i'll have WIS to Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks and double WIS to Bluff.

[Andvare]

Is this for some competition to see how SAD you can make a monk?
:smalltongue:

[grarrrg]

Is this for some competition to see how SAD you can make a monk?
:smalltongue:

Actually...

Once we throw Monkey Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-style-combat-style) on, I think we've done all we can do...

[Andvare]

Actually...

Once we throw Monkey Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/monkey-style-combat-style) on, I think we've done all we can do...

Yes, that would make a monk cry (http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/7d/bf/7dbff994352b2bc8a405c141bc4a854e.jpg).

[grarrrg]

Yes, that would make a monk cry (http://cdn2-b.examiner.com/sites/default/files/styles/image_content_width/hash/7d/bf/7dbff994352b2bc8a405c141bc4a854e.jpg).

I'd like to point out that the build is not quite completely SAD.

It is still advisable to have 13 DEX to qualify for feats (you can only take so many through Req-less Monk Bonuses), and a moderate amount of CON is always welcome.

Might as well go 14 DEX minimum just for the extra +1 Initiative and AC.

[Andvare]

I'd like to point out that the build is not quite completely SAD.

It is still advisable to have 13 DEX to qualify for feats (you can only take so many through Req-less Monk Bonuses), and a moderate amount of CON is always welcome.

Might as well go 14 DEX minimum just for the extra +1 Initiative and AC.

Well, no build that I know of, outside of Pun Pun sillyness, is completely sad, even the orc witch from ARG can use more than one attribute, and that is the saddest class I can think of.
But, granted, this is still more mad than, say, a wizard.

[Akal Saris]

Another thing to pile on for the SAD monk:

Trait - Wisdom in the Flesh (Irori) - Select any Strength, Constitution(None), or Dexterity -based skill. You make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of its normal ability score. That skill becomes a class skill.

Here is a list of the skills you can choose from: Climb, Swim, Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth.

[dantiesilva]

I don't know if this was pointed out but foe hunter is a good feat to look into, you choose a certain type of creature just like a ranger and you are treated as having improved critical against them as well as a +1 competence bonus on damage rolls.

Focused shot is another good one Which allows you to add your intelligence modifier to your damage. Only bad thing about it, like most archery feats they had to be within 30ft. But with shot on the run you could move after shooting them and get away.

Basically I just got done making a level 1 commoner build for a friend for a war campaign and it deals over 20 damage a turn out to 250ft. Using the rules for aging made the stats both through the roof and horrible at the same time, so I had to find a way to make a competent build without any of my physical scores. This is what I got.

http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=434230

It uses the bonus feat from a human, two flaws, your 1st level feat. And a bonus one for living so long. So basically in a normal campaign you could have all of them if you played a fighter. Though extremely far from being optimized saying it has a grand total of 1hp it has a 250ft death range to anything of its level, and in the campaign is in a volley of 10 of them against giants. So two of them hit one giant each, so 2d8+40 damage each giant will be taking. Now that is not amazing, but at level 1 doing that...its insane.

[Andvare]

Yeah, um, again, this is for Pathfinder, so very little of that is probably useful.

[Valdras]

Ok, this is going to sound ignorant. But what does SAD mean?

I keep seeing these things like SAD and MAD and I have no idea what they mean.

[grarrrg]

Ok, this is going to sound ignorant. But what does SAD mean?

I keep seeing these things like SAD and MAD and I have no idea what they mean.

SAD
Single Attribute Dependent

MAD
Multiple Attribute Dependent

A Wizard is a SAD class. As long as their INT score is high, they are fine.

A Monk is a MAD class. It needs STR for attacks, DEX for AC, CON for HP, and WIS for AC and other randomness. It would also like a decent INT for Skill Points.

The Monk is probably the MADest class there is, as the only stat they can afford to ignore is CHA.
Paladins (3.5) are right behind them. Needing Physical stats for...physical...stuff... INT for skills, WIS for Spells, and CHA for class abilities. Despite having a USE for more stats, the Paladin is still considered LESS MAD than the Monk due to not needing certain stats as much. Paladins can wear Heavy Armor > doesn't need DEX. Has better HD than Monk > doesn't need as much CON. Only 'needs' 14 WIS to cast spells.

Druids (3.5) are probably the SADest class. They need WIS for spells, and can spend the rest of their time Wild Shaped.

[Valdras]

Ok, wow, I see how that works now.

I wonder what else I can pile on this to make it more SAD. Though it seems pretty close enough as it is when you mix Inquisitor and Monk.. lol

[Andvare]

Ok, this is going to sound ignorant. But what does SAD mean?

I keep seeing these things like SAD and MAD and I have no idea what they mean.

It is not ignorant. Not knowing slang/abbreviations is not ignorant.

[Andvare]

Druids (3.5) are probably the SADest class. They need WIS for spells, and can spend the rest of their time Wild Shaped.

Specifically only for 3.5
Druids in pathfinder are actually quite mad, for a spellcasting class. On par with the MADness that is the cleric, which did become more MAD in pathfinder (after losing the heavy armour feat).

I know you know this, I just felt it should be stated, as this is a PF thread :smalltongue: .