Looking for build advice...

[Kerilstrasz]

We are currently playing a campaign that started as instructive but after
all players agreed it becomes "hardcore".
(that means tougher encounters, more diff riddles, higher skill DC's and far
more complicated plot)

anyways...

the party has..
1 Elf Fighter lvl4 (playing with Mighty comp. longbow) Our Ranged Dps
1 Half elf Cleric lvl4 (unlucky on stats rolls wis-14) Our Healer
1 Human Fighter lvl4 (my char) Our melee dps and tank..

the question is...
what class i could take to enchance my groups capabilities?
and maybe what Pr.C. to aim for the future?

my char..

Str-18 / Dex-14 / Con-12 / Int-13 / Wis-8 / Cha-8

HP-38 / AC-21 / Init-2 / Speed-40 (+10 Boots of Speed)

Bastard Sword: +11 / 1d10+7 (+1 Magic Cold-Iron)
MW Chain Shirt / MW Large Steel Shield / Dastana +1 Magic

Feats: Ex.Wpn.Proff-Bastard / WpnFocus-Bastard / WpnSpecial-Bastard /
C.Expertise / Dodge / Mobility / Spring Attck.

Roleplaying as a Spartan

Campaign Info

3,5 Edition
Low Wealth (3/4 of average) from this point on
Tactic,Skill,Creativity and RP demanding
PhB1 is the ONLY book allowed to players!!!
Pr.C. can come from certain books including Completes, and Guides to X&X.

[Azoth]

I would change out the bastard sword for a spiked chain and grab improved trip. With combat reflexes you can lockdown a 10ft area forcing opponents to deal with you and keeping them off the archer. If you can get enlarge person potions that turns into a 20ft area. Of course look into Dex boosting items as well (Higher dex mod more AoO).

Not too sure on PRC's though. With the only guaranteed sourcebook being the PHB I am not sure of good 'tank' build.

[Kerilstrasz]

I would change out the bastard sword for a spiked chain

well... cant really do that cause retraining is at phb2...
i also used my DMs "good will" when our barbarian left our group and i changed
my illusionist to that fighter...


Not too sure on PRC's though. With the only guaranteed sourcebook being the PHB I am not sure of good 'tank' build.

im not really looking for a tank build.. more like a beefy melee dps...
you know... dealin descent dmg but be there to get the hits too if needed.

PS: anyways .. according to my stats... which phb class could add to my
group's arsenal a bit more versatility?

[Augmental]

What method of rolling stats do you use to get a cleric with 14 wisdom?

[Kerilstrasz]

What method of rolling stats do you use to get a cleric with 14 wisdom?

although irrelevant... 1d8 for every stat plus the base 10. 1 reroll for the lowest
roll, switch 2 rolled stats with each other.

[Augmental]

although irrelevant... 1d8 for every stat plus the base 10. 1 reroll for the lowest
roll, switch 2 rolled stats with each other.

Does that mean the Cleric got no stat lower than 14?

[sonofzeal]

....whooboy.

- Bastard Sword is almost universally a bad idea; you're paying a feat for, on average, +1 damage over a longsword. And a longsword is hardly all that useful already, you're usually better off with a greatsword or reach weapon.

- Weapon Focus / Weapon Spec are... not nearly as bad as many people claim, but don't add much to you either. They're fine filler, but that's all they are.

- Spring Attack is a trap. Dodge would be merely filler if it worked against all attacks; requiring awareness and only working on one target make it terrible. Mobility, too, is pretty awful. And Spring Attack, on a Fighter who's going to be at 20-30 move speed for their entire career? Really, what do you hope to accomplish there?



If you're stuck with this character though... geeze. Uh. PHB only? Yeah, you're pretty screwed. Improved Grapple will be useful for you, more so than Spring Attack at least. I like Deflect Arrows in humanoid-heavy campaigns, too. And investing a few feats into Archery with things like Rapid Shot will help you deal with a wider range of encounters as well.

Take at least one level of Barbarian, for the move-speed bonus and 1/day rage, not to mention better hp and skills. Two levels of Ranger gives a bunch more skills, and the aforementioned Rapid Shot. And Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) is useful as far as Core prestige classes go.

That's about it though. You desperately need a rebuild and preferably some non-core options to make this type of character work.

[Kerilstrasz]

....whooboy.

- Bastard Sword is almost universally a bad idea; you're paying a feat for, on average, +1 damage over a longsword. And a longsword is hardly all that useful already, you're usually better off with a greatsword or reach weapon.

- Weapon Focus / Weapon Spec are... not nearly as bad as many people claim, but don't add much to you either. They're fine filler, but that's all they are.

- Spring Attack is a trap. Dodge would be merely filler if it worked against all attacks; requiring awareness and only working on one target make it terrible. Mobility, too, is pretty awful. And Spring Attack, on a Fighter who's going to be at 20-30 move speed for their entire career? Really, what do you hope to accomplish there?



If you're stuck with this character though... geeze. Uh. PHB only? Yeah, you're pretty screwed. Improved Grapple will be useful for you, more so than Spring Attack at least. I like Deflect Arrows in humanoid-heavy campaigns, too. And investing a few feats into Archery with things like Rapid Shot will help you deal with a wider range of encounters as well.

Take at least one level of Barbarian, for the move-speed bonus and 1/day rage, not to mention better hp and skills. Two levels of Ranger gives a bunch more skills, and the aforementioned Rapid Shot. And Horizon Walker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/horizonWalker.htm) is useful as far as Core prestige classes go.

That's about it though. You desperately need a rebuild and preferably some non-core options to make this type of character work.

oh! my! god!
you really didnt read the initial post .. did you???
where to start? my 40 speed? only phb(so no great feat selection)? the fact
that my group allready has an archer fighter? the point that i dont wont
retraining advice cause i cant retrain???????????

any1 with some real suggestion about what i ask and not to criticize my choices
so far????

[sonofzeal]

oh! my! god!
you really didnt read the initial post .. did you???
where to start? my 40 speed? only phb(so no great feat selection)? the fact
that my group allready has an archer fighter? the point that i dont wont
retraining advice cause i cant retrain???????????

any1 with some real suggestion about what i ask and not to criticize my choices
so far????
Yes, I read your post. Did you read mine? I suggest a number of PHB feats that might help your character. I suggest PHB dips which might help your character. I did not suggest a single non-Core option. So you're complaining... why, exactly?

You can here asking for build advice. Part of that is going to be understanding what's wrong currently, so that you can take steps to deal with it. I'm sorry if I touched a sensitive point there, but my intent was to educate rather than criticize. And seeing as you came into this thread specifically to be educated, I thought that would be useful for you.

In any case, I gave you more relevant build advice than... anyone else in this thread that I can see. And somehow this means I get accused of not reading, and basically shat on for trying to give some pointers?

Yeah, don't expect to see me offering you much help in the future.... :smallannoyed:

[dspeyer]

I suggest ranger.

Two fighters and a cleric probably don't have a decent spot check among them. You can even be reasonably sneaky in that medium armor.

Consider switching to a lighter shield to decrease armor check and so that you can twf bash with it. Or drop it completely for a second bastard sword. Sure, dual-wielding bastard swords is -4, but weapon focus helps, and more to the point: it's awesome.

[Urpriest]

By the way, what is your DM doing to correct the numbers from low wealth? (Most DMs in a low-wealth campaigns will use some sort of scaling bonuses to make sure that players keep the AC and attack numbers that the CR system expects them to get from items).

If the game is, as you say, highly demanding in RP, then probably playing the character as a stereotypical Spartan is eventually going to start being a disadvantage. I'd recommend bringing in less-known historical details about Sparta if you want to keep your character relevant RPwise.

On the mechanical side, Spring Attack at this level is not terrible, but pretty soon it's going to be without a heavy focus on effective use of standard attacks. Off-hand I can't think of a great way to do that with your sources. The Bastard Sword in general was sort of a silly choice given your sources, but since you've got access to Complete Warrior for PrCs you can at least use Exotic Weapon Master. In particular, Uncanny Blow will help out your damage, coupled with reasonable use of Power Attack.

You say PHB1 is the only accessible book for players, does that mean the DM has access to other books? In particular, if you ever meet an NPC Psion you might be able to pay them to use Psychic Reformation to let you retrain your feats.

[Kerilstrasz]

ok... lets see... ranger is a nice idea but my low wis would prolly ruin his "stuff"..
i might suggest ranger to the 2nd fighter... he s already in the archer path,and has wis 12...
i was thinking about rogue for the skill points and selection... i get trapfinding too...
but any idea that my stats can afford and fill gaps in my group formation are welcome.

now about...


By the way, what is your DM doing to correct the numbers from low wealth? (Most DMs in a low-wealth campaigns will use some sort of scaling bonuses to make sure that players keep the AC and attack numbers that the CR system expects them to get from items).


he may keep us "under wealthed" but he makes up in ways like:
if we search or gather info hard enough we would get tips on how to win a
encounter with the resources available..
also he often provides us some "1 use key items" found by low encounters
that could help on toughest encounters (yes.. we have a B.o.H full of things
that smn would consider to be junk but the do help)
it's all about Creative combat as he said and i kinda like it...



If the game is, as you say, highly demanding in RP, then probably playing the character as a stereotypical Spartan is eventually going to start being a disadvantage. I'd recommend bringing in less-known historical details about Sparta if you want to keep your character relevant RPwise.

well.. that not actually a problem from my point of view.. yes he is a spartan,
but every man can reconsider some things about his nature.. so some changes
can be applied in time with the proper RP.


On the mechanical side, Spring Attack at this level is not terrible, but pretty soon it's going to be without a heavy focus on effective use of standard attacks.

i use SP.Atckk more as to "burn" enemies A.o.O. ... it works pretty well and
combined with mobility they A.o.O. me while im on 26 AC.. so in many cases that
mobs reach my group they can still shoot arrows or cast spells without fear.



but since you've got access to Complete Warrior for PrCs you can at least use Exotic Weapon Master. In particular, Uncanny Blow will help out your damage, coupled with reasonable use of Power Attack.

Ye.. i was thinking either that or weapon master from Sword & Fist.
not sure which yet though...


if you ever meet an NPC Psion you might be able to pay them to use Psychic Reformation to let you retrain your feats.

any psionic material is off the table for either players or DM.

[Urpriest]

i use SP.Atckk more as to "burn" enemies A.o.O. ... it works pretty well and
combined with mobility they A.o.O. me while im on 26 AC.. so in many cases that
mobs reach my group they can still shoot arrows or cast spells without fear.




Ye.. i was thinking either that or weapon master from Sword & Fist.
not sure which yet though...


Spring Attack means that you don't take AOO from the target of your attack, though. That's literally the point of the feat. I suppose it lets you use that tactic and then move out, but that seems like sort of a minor benefit. Anyway, as long as you realize that when you use it at higher levels you won't be contributing much to damage it's not a huge problem.

You can't take Weapon Master from Sword & Fist, since it doesn't exist anymore. It was updated to Exotic Weapon Master in 3.5. Source. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20050110x)

By Guide to X&X in the OP, do you mean Masters of the Wild and things like that?

[Kerilstrasz]

Spring Attack means that you don't take AOO from the target of your attack, though.

Assume of 3 enemies (A,B and C)...
Im adjusted to A when my round starts..
moving away from A(A.o.O) towards B
Hitting B and moving away towards C(no A.o.O cause of Spring Attck)
ending my turn adjusted to C(A.o.O cause entered threatened without attacking)
Repeat the circle as needed if nothing better to do,effectively burning
2 of 3 enemies A.o.O. .. ofc i realize that at higher lvls that prolly wont
be as effective as now..


By Guide to X&X in the OP, do you mean Masters of the Wild and things like that?

Masters of the Wild, defenders of faith, sword and fist, song & silence etc etc...


You can't take Weapon Master from Sword & Fist, since it doesn't exist anymore.

many feats, classes and Pr.c. from 3 are allowed if there aren't equilevants on 3,5
after getting the DMs adjustments and approval..
for example a Pr.C. that requires or gives as special "ambidexterity" isn't allowed.
Another example is (my favorite)Lasher cause it assumes the whip is a ranged weapon
and not a reach weapon(as changed on 3,5)
ofc Lasher may be usable if DM allows whips to be considered as ranged (but that's another issue)

a Pr.C. like Weapon Master that requires nothing that 3,5 doesn't have and there is not a 3,5 Pr.C. identical to it is allowed.

[Urpriest]

Assume of 3 enemies (A,B and C)...
Im adjusted to A when my round starts..
moving away from A(A.o.O) towards B
Hitting B and moving away towards C(no A.o.O cause of Spring Attck)
ending my turn adjusted to C(A.o.O cause entered threatened without attacking)
Repeat the circle as needed if nothing better to do,effectively burning
2 of 3 enemies A.o.O. .. ofc i realize that at higher lvls that prolly wont
be as effective as now..

First of all, entering an opponent's threatened area does not trigger an attack of opportunity. Your routine would provoke an attack from A, so it is equivalent to just moving away from A and attacking B without spring attack.

That said, if you moved just a bit farther (leaving one square next to C while entering another) you could manage to indeed waste C's attack of opportunity (provided C went for it. If C is smart, C will observe that you just used Spring Attack, and assume you have Mobility). The problem is, you could do that normally as well. Move away from A, then move past C, then move to attack B. All Spring Attack is doing is letting you change the order if one order is inconvenient. It's not a negligible advantage, but it's a little limited for a feat that requires so many prerequisites.



many feats, classes and Pr.c. from 3 are allowed if there aren't equilevants on 3,5
after getting the DMs adjustments and approval..
for example a Pr.C. that requires or gives as special "ambidexterity" isn't allowed.
Another example is (my favorite)Lasher cause it assumes the whip is a ranged weapon
and not a reach weapon(as changed on 3,5)
ofc Lasher may be usable if DM allows whips to be considered as ranged (but that's another issue)

a Pr.C. like Weapon Master that requires nothing that 3,5 doesn't have and there is not a 3,5 Pr.C. identical to it is allowed.

There is a direct equivalent in 3.5, an identical prestige class. As I just said, Exotic Weapon Master is, per 3.5 rules, identical and directly equivalent to Weapon Master.

[Kerilstrasz]

nicely said.. both.. i ll consider these.. thnx a lot

[Randomguy]

You've got a decent Intelligence. If you get Abjurant Champion from Complete Mage approved, then you could do something like Fighter 5/Wizard 1/Abjurant Champion 5 or Fighter 4/Wizard 2/Abjurant Champion 5. It might not be the best idea, though, since your spell failure might be a bit too high, and it would take some money to upgrade your armour to reduce it. But if you do, then it'll help add some versatility to your party, since you don't have any arcane casting.


If you're allowed to take skill tricks, then you could go into Battle Trickster from complete Scoundrel. You don't lose anything and you gain some skill points and some minor benefits.

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

I second exoti weapon master, since you are using a bastard sword. A barbarian dip may be a good idea. The STR and CON boost could help you a lot... It makes you deal more damage, makes you beefier...

Something a bit strange to consider would be a level dip into cleric or wizard... Gives you a few low level spells, but the real draw is that it allows you to use wands/scrolls without Use Magic Device. For example, dark vision might help, and mirror image is always great.

Um... Can't think of anything else at the moment, may add something later.... Past 3am here in Australia...

[Kelb_Panthera]

I can't help noticing that you've already got most of the requirements for the weapon master PrC from OA and dervish from CW.

Have you considered either of those classes?