When should you use Power Attack?

[PrinceRenais]

In the past when I play fighters, I get it and never use it, just to get cleave & greater cleave (which is useful when the campaigns love armies of weak things like kobold warriors...). I personally prefer having the higher chance to hit, but Power Attack is so highly suggested... My question is, how often should you use it and for how much of your BAB?
Let's say you don't know the enemy's armor class (because, honestly, the DMs never really tells us), so don't base it on that. It would be really beneficial for me (and anyone else that happens to find this thread in the future) if someone took the time to do it level by level,, by level chunks, or as a general rule.

[AntiTrust]

I tend to feel it out, I call out my attack roll and then gauge my dm's reaction to it "oh that definitely hit" or "You just made it" etc etc. Those reactions determine, in subsequent rounds, if I power attack, normal attack, or even attack defensively (for those guys I just need to keep in front while my spellcasters take it out). I'm sure some numbers wiz could do something percentage based, but that's a very technical way to play and its generally not something I'm looking for when I play my fighters and raging barbarians.

[Crasical]

Pay attention to the numbers, what hits, what misses, and estimate your enemy's AC based off that information. Then you can plug the numbers into this (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/)calculator (You have a laptop at games, right?) and then tweak the numbers until you like your hit %.

[Vizzerdrix]

I've always just gone with a range from 1/3 to 1/2 BAB depending on hits.

[eggs]

Always use it when you don't think you can miss, even after the penalty (typically standard action attacks, attacks with really high modifiers and any situation involving Banzai/Heedless Charge or touch attacks).

When it actually comes at a tradeoff in accuracy, it's not usually all that great (it feels cool adding an extra 10 to 20 to your damage rolls, but the expected damage doesn't always move all that much). Circumstances can make it swing - big damage bonuses and rider effects like Sudden Stunning or Knockdown make it less useful; big attack bonuses or DR make it more useful.

[ZeroNumerous]

I take up Shock Trooper and use it on every swing.

[Crasical]

You manage to charge on every attack?

[ZeroNumerous]

You manage to charge on every attack?

Of course. It helps when you're playing a Raptoran in a non-dungeon crawly campaign.

[Kerilstrasz]

well...
i tend to roleplay it..
my fighter uses bastard sword and shield...
in times that RP occasions demands it, he drops his shield, holds the Bsword with
both hands,power attck, callshot to the neck and charge!

it may some times not hit, but when it does the DM description of what happened
is so "heroicly heroic" that makes me feel good...
its all about the fun.. isn't it ? :)

[sonofzeal]

Power Attack is merely decent (and rather overrated) by itself, but combos well. Martial Study: Emerald Razor is a nice way - once per encounter, something DIES. Even better if you can tack something else on there, like Smite or Rhino Rush.

[GenghisDon]

Yes, hxolhpths, it is. Others will define their fun differently, but that should be their problem.

I'd say to "feel it out" as well, although there are several mathematical breakdowns that can/should be read to inform one how the odds truly work (human minds/brains have a very poor ability to accurately determine certain probabilities).

I'd try whatever gives one a "+0" BAB" on their worst attack, so a L7 barbarian might try +2, a L4 ranger +4, a L18 fighter +3, ect. In truth, it depnds on how many modifiers you have picked up (charge, flank, 2 weapon use penalty, score buffs, bard song, buff spell, ect) & the assumed AC of the opponent, but +0 base is about as good a spot to start as any without much AC knowledge.

I think I'm so general with it because I'm nearly always the DM, and I KNOW the AC of the target all too well, but don't want to cheat or be unfair. When Conan (barbarian, duh) & Sir Galahad (knight), both in mithral plate, are each engaged in melee with a (different) frost giant, it can't be fair to PA away on conan & not on galahad because I know his AC is much less than galahad's, right? It isn't that obvious to an observer (other than galahad's having a shield mod of 2+).

I'm quite interested in this piece of the OP's quiery:
"Re: When should you use Power Attack" IF YOU ARE A DM?

well, DMs of the playground? what's fair/fun?

[Saintheart]

I tend to feel it out, I call out my attack roll and then gauge my dm's reaction to it "oh that definitely hit" or "You just made it" etc etc. Those reactions determine if I power attack, normal attack, or even attack defensively (for those guys I just need to keep in front while my spellcasters take it out). I'm sure some numbers wiz could do something percentage based, but that's a very technical way to play and its generally not something I'm looking for when I play my fighters and raging barbarians.

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

If you're declaring Power Attack after you've already rolled, you're cheating.

EDIT: Unless, of course, you take a first round at normal rolls and then on subsequent rounds decide whether to PA or not. Oops.

[Eldariel]

First of all:
- Creatures that don't wear magical or physical armor (and lack inherent AC bonuses) tend to have low AC for their level. Especially animals, plants, magical beasts and the like. Against these you can generally afford to Power Attack for a lot fairly safely.
- If enemy's wearing heavy armor or a nimble type with light armor and some other sources of AC, you probably don't want to PA too much without temporary bonuses.
- If you have some environmental attack roll bonuses such as enemy being prone, you having charged or the like, you can generally sink these bonuses to Power Attack.
- If you notice you're not hitting with rolls over 10, you probably shouldn't Power Attack (unless you're only hitting with ~19-20 in which case Power Attack for full).

Generally I PA for 2-5 depending on what's going on. Though on higher levels when it's often possible to hit the enemies on 2 I might PA for more.

[molten_dragon]

I tend to gauge it based on what I'm fighting. It's kind of meta, but I'm familiar enough with most monsters to have a rough idea where there ACs are, so I tend to have a general idea how much I should PA for, or whether I should let it be.

I also have a rule that any to-hit buffs I get hit with get funneled directly into PA, unless I'm fighting something that's nearly impossible to hit (like I need a 19 or 20) without buffs.

[AntiTrust]

Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite
Str 13.

Benefit

On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

If you're declaring Power Attack after you've already rolled, you're cheating.

EDIT: Unless, of course, you take a first round at normal rolls and then on subsequent rounds decide whether to PA or not. Oops.

Yeah I'm talking about after a few rounds of combat and observing the dm's reactions to my attack rolls

[ericgrau]

(a) When you have shock trooper or another trick to keep on hitting
(b) See complex tables here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339).

Without tricks like shock trooper it isn't actually all that hot to take the feat at all. At levels 2-5 it isn't too shabby though. Sacrificing 2-4 points of attack bonus is usually a safe bet. But let's say you took the feat in that level range and want to know what to do at level 6+ (where taking it would be a lousy choice). And assuming you aren't pumping it with shock trooper or similar. Even after it drops off in usefulness it's alright on single attacks, and even a couple points of attack bonus on full attacks is often ok. Except maybe if the foe is low on health and you might risk missing for overkill. Then once you get another damage booster or your 3rd attack it's time to save PA for single attacks only. Then once you hit about 30-35 damage per hit it's time to retire the feat entirely (except see below).

If you can pump your attack bonus sky high, usually through stacking multiple magical buffs, you can also use just enough power attack so that you still hit on a 2. Or likewise for foes with unusually low AC.

Basically no matter what your situation you can't use power attack blindly and expect it to be worth the feat slot. You have to use it as part of some combo or against specific foes or at certain levels.

[Gnome Alone]

You have a laptop at games, right?

Um, that's kind of a weird assumption...

Some people don't have laptops. Some have them but don't bring them to games. Some people have then but don't bring them to games because they don't want the DM to strangle them, etc.

[navar100]

Try practice using it when you get bonuses. Without using Power Attack your total attack bonus is X. You are very happy with X. You can Power Attack while always having X to your roll. How?

Power Attack with a two-handed weapon:

1) Flank an opponent. X + 2 to hit is now X to hit, +4 damage.
2) Cleric casts Bless. X + 1 to hit is now X to hit, +2 damage.
3) Wizard casts Bull Strength on you. X + 2 to hit, +3 damage (two-handed weapon) is now X to hit, +7 damage.

Add it all up, BAB at least 5: Flank an opponent, Bless, Bull Strength, you are at your very happy X to hit with +13 damage above what you normally do.

[ericgrau]

Eh, except it's probably even a good idea to PA at X (no buffs) for X-2, yet it's also a good idea to keep some of that buff attack bonus rather than dumping it all into PA. Even with a high X. Generally I'd PA for -2/+4, or the minimum amount to hit on a roll of a 2, whichever is higher. Sometimes -4/+8 is a tiny hair better, but once you get into secondary attacks -2/+4 is safer.

In the above example I might do -2/+4 without any buffs and -4/+8 with all the buffs. At BAB 6 or more I might do -3/+6 even with all those buffs whenever full attacking. Still -2/+4 without buffs on a full attack; since that was already a conservative amount since more than -2/+4 gave very little improvement. Or against easier targets I might risk more but there are very few things that the secondary attack will auto-hit.

The basic concept is diminishing returns. After the first couple of points you dump into PA the extra gains minus the extra losses is microscopic. Sometimes negative. You need to be doing very well for it to be worth pushing even a tiny bit farther. Not to mention even when you break even on average you're actually creating a huge gamble. High risk tends to favor the losing side not the winning side, and players tend to be on the winning side. Many monsters die every session, but when a player dies to bad luck, from a missed monster that's still alive, it's a much bigger deal.

[Uhtred]

My typical rule with power attack is: (my bonus from weapon enhancement + weapon focus/greater weapon focus + Rage/enlarge/bull strength + aid/bless/misc. attack bonus) / 2. It helps if those things exist, though, so I try to make friends with the party Cleric and Artificer.

[Big Fau]

Um, that's kind of a weird assumption...

Some people don't have laptops. Some have them but don't bring them to games. Some people have then but don't bring them to games because they don't want the DM to strangle them, etc.

I find that having a laptop makes it much easier, and have encouraged my players to bring their's (and then shut off the wireless modem to ensure they don't get distracted).


Better organization means the players can get more done in a single session.

[Psyren]

On the laptop discussion, I find tablets to be a little less obtrusive than screens blocking everyone's face and power cords needing to go everywhere after a few hours of play.

On topic, I play Pathfinder so generally I swing for the fences, i.e. as much as PA allows me to take at each given level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Since AC for creatures is very frequently CR+13, give or take a point or two, I adjust power attack based on what CR I think the opponent is, which I can get a good feel for with a quick sense motive check.

I'm comfortable with up to a ~30% miss chance so my hits usually hurt.

I admit that this method is a touch meta-gamey though.

[Gwendol]

I always use it, unless the opponent is heavily armored. Especially if gaining bonuses to hit.

[qcbtnsrm]

On topic, I play Pathfinder so generally I swing for the fences, i.e. as much as PA allows me to take at each given level.
Unless they errata-ed something. That is all you can do. In Pathfinder it is binary, either you PA or you don't. If you use PA, you take a set penalty to attack based on your level, and receive a set bonus to damage based on your level. You don't get to dial it like in 3.5.

[teslas]

How has nobody pointed this out yet:
http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power

On guessing your opponent's AC:

You are a fighter. You fight for a living. You could claim it is meta to guess a monster's AC, but it's really not, especially after you see allies attack it, or have attacked it a few times yourself.

You know exactly how much AC types of armor will give, and you know (or can make a best guess) how wealthy or how much magical equipment to expect from an opponent within reason. Natural armor, likewise, should be rather clear. It's safe to guess a t-rex's natural armor is higher than that of a gelatinous cube, for instance.

For weird-ass aberrations, ghosts, and the like, you're going to have to have some kind of prior experience, still, a rough dexterity bonus and other common sense aspects should be fairly apparent to you, even if deflection/mage armor/etc is not.

It's going to be damn near impossible to surprise a well-traveled mid/high-level fighter.


And since you know or can guess the target's AC, plug some values into the calculator, and bam, you have your, mathematically, best answer. Granted, most fights aren't going to be centered around who does the most damage swinging at a pole for an hour straight, so you may want to dial it down at your own discretion from time to time.

[Novawurmson]

On the laptop discussion, I find tablets to be a little less obtrusive than screens blocking everyone's face and power cords needing to go everywhere after a few hours of play.


This. Switched from my laptop to my Kindle when I'm playing. All the difference in the world.

Still use the laptop when I'm DMing because it makes a good "GM screen."

[SSGoW]

The only time I use it is when I coup de grace an enemy.

Besides that I don't think it really is worth it... Unless of course you have a ton of buffs or you are a race that gives you a free to hit (like neanderthal +1 to hitt with greatclubs... PA is always on for at least 1 :p ).

[Kalirren]

My friend once actually built a power attack calculator in Mathematica that told him how much to power attack for in order to maximize expected damage, given his attack bonus, his expected damage on hit, target DR, and target AC.

He found that it's usually worth it to power attack for some small amount. He had a mental formula for it to quickly estimate it on the fly, too.

Guy had nothing better to do with his time...:smalltongue:

[PrinceRenais]

First, I'd like to... say... uh... WOW, this got a lot more activity than my previous posts. Just read through them all, and I'll probably try out a few different things.


How has nobody pointed this out yet:
http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power
For the above quote, I'd like to direct you to an earlier post (below) that did point that site out. :smallwink:

Pay attention to the numbers, what hits, what misses, and estimate your enemy's AC based off that information. Then you can plug the numbers into this (http://donjon.bin.sh/d20/power/)calculator (You have a laptop at games, right?) and then tweak the numbers until you like your hit %.
Why did I not know about this website sooner? Special thanks to you two!
I don't normally have a laptop at my games, but they don't mind when I do. I'll have to try it out next time I get a fighter up and running! (I've 'killed' all of mine off already because I prefer being arcane casters, and the DMs didn't mind that I switched characters. One of my characters killed most of a Pirate ship 'cause they all were level 1 except the captain, apparently. Now he's the level 4 captain, harrrr!)

[Psyren]

Unless they errata-ed something. That is all you can do. In Pathfinder it is binary, either you PA or you don't. If you use PA, you take a set penalty to attack based on your level, and receive a set bonus to damage based on your level. You don't get to dial it like in 3.5.

I know, and that's what I said :smallconfused:

[PrinceRenais]

@Psyren: Had it not been explained by qcbtnsrm, I would have assumed you did it optionally, as I'm not familiar with Pathfinder. You didn't really explain it as otherwise. Then again, I never did specify if I intended it for 3.5 or PF, or even for DM or Player... Either way, now it's more useful to a wider audience. :smallbiggrin:

[Con_Brio1993]

Unless they errata-ed something. That is all you can do. In Pathfinder it is binary, either you PA or you don't. If you use PA, you take a set penalty to attack based on your level, and receive a set bonus to damage based on your level. You don't get to dial it like in 3.5.

Yeah I think you are correct.

There's also a feat (Furious Focus?) that lets you ignore the minuses to hit from Power Attack for a single attack.

[robertbevan]

i pretty much always use it, and i max it out. it's probably not where the smart money is, but when the axe connects, it's fun.

[Psyren]

@Psyren: Had it not been explained by qcbtnsrm, I would have assumed you did it optionally, as I'm not familiar with Pathfinder. You didn't really explain it as otherwise.

Psh.


Yeah I think you are correct.

There's also a feat (Furious Focus?) that lets you ignore the minuses to hit from Power Attack for a single attack.

Yes, (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/furious-focus-combat) and since it's passive with easy prereqs, it's generally a good grab for a melee type.