Wierd Combo Ajudication

[Tyndmyr]

So, I need a way to determine outcome/damage for the following.

The player: A conjurer/jaunter. Solves all problems by teleportation.

The Items: Ring of X-ray Vision. Obviously, if you can see a location, it satisfies the requirements for being able to teleport there, yes?

Immovable Rod. Assume he has plenty of these, and ensuring the button is pressed is not a problem, either do to placement or a basic dead-man's switch that pushes the button when it's no longer being held by him.

The Combo: Teleport Object the Immovable Rod inside of a creature to any open space(and, is open space technically required). Typically, this is either stomach/elsewhere in digestive system or lungs/breathing apparatus.


Obviously, the stationary bit is easy. But what happens when say, a flying dragon suddenly as an immovable rod inside him? How much damage is that if he fails the strength check, falling damage? And how much if he passes?

Worse, what happens if the target attempts to polymorph into something small to stop the unknown threat? Answers based on RAW are preferred, thanks. =)

[KillianHawkeye]

There is no RAW for what you are asking.

[Curmudgeon]

That simply doesn't work. Lungs aren't big open spaces; instead they're like sponges, with many tiny interconnected air passages. They work by having a very large surface of lung tissue exposed to air, and that tissue is everywhere in the lung volume. Stomachs also do not have open spaces. They expand and contract as needed, and are filled with food matter and digestive juices.

Additionally, you can't see empty spaces with x-ray vision at all; you can only see solids (which reflect the x-rays), and you can then guess where the spaces are based on lack of visual information. Your familiarity for trying to get to some empty space with Teleport family spells would be the same as if you didn't have x-ray vision.

[Tyndmyr]

That simply doesn't work. Lungs aren't big open spaces; instead they're like sponges, with many tiny interconnected air passages. They work by having a very large surface of lung tissue exposed to air, and that tissue is everywhere in the lung volume. Stomachs also do not have open spaces. They expand and contract as needed, and are filled with food matter and digestive juices.

Well, there's two parts here. First, can you teleport to a space that's too small for you? The closest thing I can find appears to be shunting from the blink spell(which is fairly fine, it's minor damage for casting a spell, no big thing), but it's applicability is uncertain.

Secondly, while open spaces obviously vary depending on the creature...there are definitely at least some circumstances in which a creature will have an open space inside it. Consider your windpipe, for instance. It's a notable space with only air in it, and on larger creatures, is at least large enough to hold a rod oriented the correct way. Other situations arise in more exotic animals, such as a gelatinous cube being used as a mount(ie, the hollow ball inside it), which has been a previous target for teleportation.


Additionally, you can't see empty spaces with x-ray vision at all; you can only see solids (which reflect the x-rays), and you can then guess where the spaces are based on lack of visual information. Your familiarity for trying to get to some empty space with Teleport family spells would be the same as if you didn't have x-ray vision.

This would seem to be no more different than the open air. Yet, teleporting to an otherwise empty space within LOS would seem to be entirely normal and accepted. There is no "ground level" restriction on teleport.

I'm not trying to shut the player down...just to find a pragmatic and consistent way to call these sorts of things.

[Curmudgeon]

This would seem to be no more different than the open air. Yet, teleporting to an otherwise empty space within LOS would seem to be entirely normal and accepted.
The important difference between x-ray vision and normal vision is that x-rays will penetrate solids of middling density and return from denser solids behind them, leading to a dense appearance without you knowing how much of the total density is from the foreground or background material; you have no depth information other than how far away the first surface is. You only need x-ray vision when there is a nearer surface which you can't see through, so all depth information after that is guesswork. With normal vision you get light reflecting from the first surface and generally that's all of what you see (translucent and transparent substances being (uncommon) exceptions, of course); you know that everything between you and that surface is empty.

[Tyndmyr]

The important difference between x-ray vision and normal vision is that x-rays will penetrate solids of middling density and return from denser solids behind them, leading to a dense appearance without you knowing how much of the total density is from the foreground or background material; you have no depth information other than how far away the first surface is. You only need x-ray vision when there is a nearer surface which you can't see through, so all depth information after that is guesswork. With normal vision you get light reflecting from the first surface and generally that's all of what you see (translucent and transparent substances being (uncommon) exceptions, of course); you know that everything between you and that surface is empty.

Mmm, I can see that. How far it penetrates(per the item) is based on density...it doesn't show the exact disposition of that density, even if you could make a fairly good extrapolation.

I don't know that this makes it impossible, or the same as not having info at all, though. Per the book, we've got "You must have some clear idea of the location and layout of the destination. The clearer your mental image, the more likely the teleportation works", and as this is obviously a less clear idea than pure visibility, it should be worth a couple of steps down on the mishap chart, anyway.

Perhaps "seen casually"?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The Immovable Rod will be shunted out of the creature automatically and the rod will take at least 1d6 damage, leaving the creature completely unharmed (reference (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm)).

What you propose is absolutely not allowed per the rules of this game. Creatures have no empty spaces inside them unless it is specifically listed as a vulnerability for a specific creature. Teleportation effects of any kind that result in the teleported target arriving within a solid body results in the teleported target being shunted to the nearest empty space and taking damage, with no harm caused to the object into which it was teleported. Certain spells may not specify this, but if they don't give any indication of what happens when a target is teleported into a solid body then it should follow the precedent set by similar spells.

[Slipperychicken]

The Dragons insides are not a valid location for teleportation. The space is occupied by a dragon, and the spell would fail and/or the Rod would be shunted to an adjacent space.

If you really want this combo to work in your game, For balance purposes, the Dragon should have a Fort save to resist the Rod's intrusion. If it succeeds, the dragons insides are not a valid position and the Rod is shunted to an adjacent space.

[The Random NPC]

That simply doesn't work. Lungs aren't big open spaces; instead they're like sponges, with many tiny interconnected air passages. They work by having a very large surface of lung tissue exposed to air, and that tissue is everywhere in the lung volume. Stomachs also do not have open spaces. They expand and contract as needed, and are filled with food matter and digestive juices.

Additionally, you can't see empty spaces with x-ray vision at all; you can only see solids (which reflect the x-rays), and you can then guess where the spaces are based on lack of visual information. Your familiarity for trying to get to some empty space with Teleport family spells would be the same as if you didn't have x-ray vision.


The important difference between x-ray vision and normal vision is that x-rays will penetrate solids of middling density and return from denser solids behind them, leading to a dense appearance without you knowing how much of the total density is from the foreground or background material; you have no depth information other than how far away the first surface is. You only need x-ray vision when there is a nearer surface which you can't see through, so all depth information after that is guesswork. With normal vision you get light reflecting from the first surface and generally that's all of what you see (translucent and transparent substances being (uncommon) exceptions, of course); you know that everything between you and that surface is empty.

Are you talking about the Ring of X-Ray Vision or just x-rays in general? Because the item does give the example of looking into a locked chest.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Curmudgeon, I can't fault you on your RAW, but please stop killing catgirls. What'd they ever do to you?

[Kalirren]

The Items: Ring of X-ray Vision. Obviously, if you can see a location, it satisfies the requirements for being able to teleport there, yes?

False, I think. You still need line of effect for any spell including a teleporation effect. X-ray vision gives line of sight, but not line of effect.

[KillianHawkeye]

False, I think. You still need line of effect for any spell including a teleporation effect. X-ray vision gives line of sight, but not line of effect.

No, you can teleport past a closed door or into your underground lair without having line of effect. That's the whole point of teleportation.

[Slipperychicken]

Curmudgeon, I can't fault you on your RAW, but please stop killing catgirls. What'd they ever do to you?

Catgirls are to be slaughtered mercilessly for the lulz at every possible interval.


Also, Curmudgeon just helped me realize why dentists have you put those things in your mouth while they take X-rays.

[Flickerdart]

Why not just have the enemy eat you before dropping the Rod and then teleporting out? Doesn't work on everything, sure, but still.

[SilverLeaf167]

Why not just have the enemy eat you before dropping the Rod and then teleporting out? Doesn't work on everything, sure, but still.
This is what I was thinking. It would be interesting to hear what would happen, though I don't think it's anywhere in the rules. At the least, they might not be able to move, but what if they try to do so anyway? The Rod might cause some nasty damage to their insides.
How would you guys handle something like this in a game? What if, one way or another, an activated Rod ends up in a character's stomach?

[Curmudgeon]

Are you talking about the Ring of X-Ray Vision or just x-rays in general? Because the item does give the example of looking into a locked chest.
I'm referring to the Ring of X-Ray Vision, as informed by the nature of x-rays. ("X-ray vision" is necessarily specific to x-rays, whereas an item of "penetrating vision" would not be.) A chest is made with walls of uniform composition and thickness, meaning the x-rays are reflected the same amount by the walls and thus any additional reflections are from materials past the chest walls. This lets you see the contents inside the chest.

[olentu]

I'm referring to the Ring of X-Ray Vision, as informed by the nature of x-rays. ("X-ray vision" is necessarily specific to x-rays, whereas an item of "penetrating vision" would not be.) A chest is made with walls of uniform composition and thickness, meaning the x-rays are reflected the same amount by the walls and thus any additional reflections are from materials past the chest walls. This lets you see the contents inside the chest.

Eh, I don't know about your chests but generally they are not perfectly machined space age storage containers. They are generally made out of planks that being natural wood may not have a uniform composition. Often one puts metallic bands on the chest or fittings on the corners to reinforce the structure.

[Baalthazaq]

You can't teleport the rod into a creature.
There are no impact rules by RAW for running into a wall, ergo, none for hitting the rod. No damage.

There ARE rules for being inside a dragon (you take acid and bludgeoning damage, so would the rod).


So. We're in to houseruling if you really want: Give them falling damage equal to the distance moved this round. It moved 60ft? 6D6 damage.

It's trapped until it digests the rod.

[Urpriest]

Yeah, I think the rules are relatively explicit:

Conjuration

Each conjuration spell belongs to one of five subschools. Conjurations bring manifestations of objects, creatures, or some form of energy to you (the summoning subschool), actually transport creatures from another plane of existence to your plane (calling), heal (healing), transport creatures or objects over great distances (teleportation), or create objects or effects on the spot (creation). Creatures you conjure usually, but not always, obey your commands.

A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

The creature or object must appear within the spell’s range, but it does not have to remain within the range.

Regardless of whether the inside of a Dragon is empty space, it is still inside a creature. Thus the spell fails.

Interestingly, the same would likely apply for a locked chest, or even a ship, provided the target can be classified as a single object.

[KillianHawkeye]

Regardless of whether the inside of a Dragon is empty space, it is still inside a creature. Thus the spell fails.

Interestingly, the same would likely apply for a locked chest, or even a ship, provided the target can be classified as a single object.

This is why a ship makes much more sense when classified as a structure rather than an object.

[Tyndmyr]

Why not just have the enemy eat you before dropping the Rod and then teleporting out? Doesn't work on everything, sure, but still.

This is also a strong possibility. Anything with swallow whole would be an obvious target for this.

Damage to the rod would also be entirely reasonable, yes.

Ur-Priest, thanks for the explicit text, that's quite clear, yeah. The eaten method should still work(with major caveats), but that does explicitly solve the teleportation trick. Thanks!