Greatsword and armor spikes two weapon fighting question

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Is it possible to use a greatsword as your main attack, and your spiked armor as your off-hand attack?

Spiked armor is light weapon, but it says "You can also make a regular melee
attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light
weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor
spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand
weapon, and vice versa."

A two hand weapon takes two hands...but is using a two hand weapon both a normal and a off-hand weapon at the same time?

Thanks

[GenghisDon]

I believe you can. It's debatable really.

there was/is a thread about glaive/spike armor nearby/recently.

you would get 1.5 str mod on the greatsword damage & .5 str mod on the armor spikes.

[tyckspoon]

Yes, you can do that. It's not terribly effective- if you're going to suffer a hit penalty for TWFing you'd do better damage by sinking that penalty into Power Attacking with the Greatsword- but you can do it.

[shaga]

"You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa"

The problem is that there is NO off-hand "weapon". There is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon. There is also a primary hand and an off hand. If you are using a weapon with your off hand, that weapon is off hand weapon. Usually you can only do that with light weapons but feats/spells and other things can change that.

Now if you are using a weapon with two hands you are using both your primary and off hand. That weapon can be a light weapon, a one-handed weapon or even a two-handed weapon. But using a weapon with both hands counts as using both your primary and off hand.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

"You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand weapon, and vice versa"

The problem is that there is NO off-hand "weapon". There is a light weapon, a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon. There is also a primary hand and an off hand. If you are using a weapon with your off hand, that weapon is off hand weapon. Usually you can only do that with light weapons but feats/spells and other things can change that.

Now if you are using a weapon with two hands you are using both your primary and off hand. That weapon can be a light weapon, a one-handed weapon or even a two-handed weapon. But using a weapon with both hands counts as using both your primary and off hand.
Off-Hand Weapon


When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only ½ your Strength bonus.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed

When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1½ times your Strength bonus. However, you don’t get this higher Strength bonus when using a light weapon with two hands.


It clearly can't be both a two handed weapon and an off hand one, because you add your STR *1.5, not *0.5.

[GenghisDon]

Well, i did mention it's debatable:smallwink:

Axespike (style) feat from races of stone could be of some interest to some. It allows standard great axe combat & an extra spike attack at -5 to hit (.5 str mod dam). No 2WC penalties to your primary weapon that way.

It needs WF:armor spikes (as well as the heavy armor & proper martial WPs), so it's not ideal, but it's worth a thought.

[Gwendol]

That combo is RAW legal. "off-hand" is a label for a secondary weapon, used in the same round as the primary.

[Seerow]

Off-Hand Weapon




It clearly can't be both a two handed weapon and an off hand one, because you add your STR *1.5, not *0.5.


You could alternatively interpret it as adding str*1 for mainhand and str*.5 for offhand, so it is counting as an offhand.

Not that I agree with that, and think it's fine and balanced to allow the two weapon fighting with a two hander and armor spikes (especially since armor spikes don't get power attack damage bonuses on top of lower str mod), just pointing out there is potential room for alternate interpretations.

[Darrin]

A two hand weapon takes two hands...but is using a two hand weapon both a normal and a off-hand weapon at the same time?


"Off-hand" actually has very little to do with your hands. It's just the term used to refer to a secondary weapon used with the TWF rules. There are several weapons that can be used for an off-hand attack that don't involve the hands: armor spikes, shield bash, and unarmed strike are the most common. It doesn't matter how many hands you use. Off-hand just means you're using an additional weapon to attack during the same round that you use your primary weapon.

You can actually declare that your armor spikes are your primary weapon and use your greatsword as your off-hand weapon if you prefer. You'll get massive penalties because it isn't a light weapon, and you'll only get 1/2 strength bonus on damage, but the rules allow you to attack with either weapon first and treat the other one as your off-hand.

[lsfreak]

"Off-hand" actually has very little to do with your hands. It's just the term used to refer to a secondary weapon used with the TWF rules. There are several weapons that can be used for an off-hand attack that don't involve the hands: armor spikes, shield bash, and unarmed strike are the most common. It doesn't matter how many hands you use. Off-hand just means you're using an additional weapon to attack during the same round that you use your primary weapon.

More confusingly, it's not even that. "Offhand" is only in play if you're gaining bonus attacks with TWF'ing. If you had a 15/10 attack routine, you can attack once with a sword and once with a dagger at no penalty, because your offhand doesn't count as an offhand since you didn't make bonus attacks.

Yes, you can TWF with a 2-hander and armor spikes. The 2-hander will get your Str bonus instead of 1.5x, and your "offhand" will get .5 Str. As said, though, for a given -2 penalty and a feat investment, you're almost certainly better off taking Power Attack instead.

[shaga]

"Buckler: This small metal shield is worn strapped to your forearm. You can use a bow or crossbow without penalty while carrying it. You can also use your shield arm to wield a weapon (whether you are using an off-hand weapon or using your off hand to help wield a two-handed weapon)"

This seems to imply you are using your off hand when wielding a two-handed weapon.

[Coidzor]

Yes, it even works with a reach weapon. In fact, it's a somewhat popular choice to go with a polearm and armor spikes (or a spiked gauntlet) for tripper/reach builds.

[shaga]

"You can also make a regular melee attack (or off-hand attack) with the spikes, and they count as a light weapon in this case. (You can’t also make an attack with armor spikes if you have already made an attack with another off-hand
weapon, and vice versa.)"

"Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus."

"off hand: A character’s weaker or less dexterous hand (usually the left). An attack made with the off hand incurs a –4 penalty on the attack roll. In addition, only one-half of a character’s Strength bonus may be added to the damage dealt with a weapon held in the off hand."

-----------------
So you can NOT make an extra off hand attack with the spikes if you have attacked with an off hand weapon. An off-hand weapon is a weapon that is used in your off hand. An off hand is the character`s weaker or less dexterous hand.

[Keld Denar]

The PHB uses poor language since they only made the assumption that people would wield weapons in their hands. That even when there are two non-handed weapons printed in the PHB (Unarmed Strikes and Armor Spikes). Then came other sources that included Weighted Cloaks, Mouthpick weapons, Boot Blades, etc. Its possible to TWF in 3.5 without using either hand. Which hand is your weaker hand when you use your shoulder as one weapon and your foot for the other?

No, that text is nearly flavor text that gives non-all-inclusive examples. The rules have fewer exceptions and are more internally consistent if you read then the way Darrin describes. Otherwise there are simply WAY too many exceptions and it starts feeling like a 5th grade English class.

[Gwendol]

Part of the problem is the way they folded the amdidexterity feat into TWF when going from 3.0 to 3.5. They could (and should) have scrapped the whole off-hand nonsense, instead of the half-baked fighting style we are left with today.