[3.5] Crusader

[Doomer123]

Hello there,

I'm starting a game with my friends pretty soon, and i've got to know what i'm going to do.

We've got a monk, a wizard, a Wu Jen and the DM might play some kind of rogue on our side.

I looked some of the classes that might fit well in our group, and I thought of a cleric or a crusader. I am way more interested in crusader tho.

I found some handbooks and guides on the internet about the crusader, and most of them don't suggest us to go crusader all the way without dipping in other classes or getting prestige classes.

Most of them suggest going Ruby Knight Vindicator, which looks pretty nice to me.

Now I need to know what i should do, if I want to play as a Crusader, I find that RKV looks pretty sweet, and I won't mind adding cleric to all that.

(Maybe blackguard would be an option into all this because it look pretty sweet, and we're playing mostly evil)

So yeah, that's that. If you need more information, ask it. Oh and we start tomorrow at level 5.


EDIT: I've got to find a race too. Can't seem to find something fitting well..
EDIT2: I'm not really experimented at D&D. I've played a couple of games, but they never lasted long.

[Flickerdart]

Blackguard's spells are kind of lame, and you'll want a primary divine caster on your side. I would recommend getting Ur-Priest in there, if your DM will allow you to adapt RKV away from Wee Jas. Divine Crusader with the right domains will also do a very good job. Finally, Mystic Ranger could be an interesting way to go about getting spells.

[Doomer123]

But is it a lot better to get RKV instead of just going Crusader20 ?
I'm not quite sure of why is it worth the trouble of dipping all around.

[eggs]

Straight crusader is better than most multiclasses. If it doesn't look like a common recommendation, that's probably just because it would be a bit redundant to say "Take crusader levels" in a guide about crusaders.

(RKV and JPM are the exception there. Because casting is just too good.)

Blackguard probably isn't worth investing levels in. It's not better than Crusader, and it puts builds in a position where their abilities just become less and less level-appropriate past ECL 12.

Basically, if you want to be a Wizard or a Cleric with some maneuvers, I'd go RKV or JPM. If you want to embrace Crusader's tankiness, just stick close to the base class - you won't need to unless there's something specific you want to pick up for your build (and at that point, the way to dip for it should be pretty clear).

[Devmaar]

The main reason (I think) dipping is recommended for Crusader is the messed-up stance progression, taking a two level dip actually gets you higher-level stances earlier and a straight Crusader can't get an 8th level stance without spending a feat

[God Imperror]

I personally like Crusader 10 / Hellreaver 10

With stone power instead of power attack it ain't evil though.

Crusader is nice going up to level 20. RKV is also nice and you can certainly try that wee jas has enough death related fluff that you can probably fit on an evil party. If you can't decide on a race pick human, they are always great.

[Kelb_Panthera]

It would help me in my suggestion making if you could give us an idea of what level of optimization your group plays to.

A simple Low, Med, or High will suffice.

At low-op, a blackgaurd RKV could be a very cool concept, but at mid-op it would be strained, and at high-op it'd be blown away by a dedicated spellcaster.

The only thing I can say for sure without more info is this: if you think you need a divine caster in the party for healing, you're wrong. Having a character that can do in-combat healing is nice, but killing the enemy is nicer. You can always patch up afterwards if someone can activate a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor, and belts of healing from MIC are great all around.

[Doomer123]

I'd say that my friends are kinda in the low or maybe med level of optimization.
I like optimizing, but i'm not that good at D&D, so i'd put myself in the med level.

Oh and finally, we got a Warlock (Which is gonna take hellfire warlock), a Wizard and a monk.)

[tyckspoon]

The only thing I can say for sure without more info is this: if you think you need a divine caster in the party for healing, you're wrong. Having a character that can do in-combat healing is nice, but killing the enemy is nicer. You can always patch up afterwards if someone can activate a wand of cure light wounds or lesser vigor, and belts of healing from MIC are great all around.

HP healing isn't really the problem- more exotic forms of damage tend to be much more difficult and expensive to fix without a divine caster. Negative levels and ability damage, for example, can wreck characters quite badly if you don't have somebody with access to Restoration effects.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'd say that my friends are kinda in the low or maybe med level of optimization.
I like optimizing, but i'm not that good at D&D, so i'd put myself in the med level.

Oh and finally, we got a Warlock (Which is gonna take hellfire warlock), a Wizard and a monk.)
Big group at low-mid op. Your blackguard RKV idea should do just fine. Human is the default option for everything, but in that situation you can afford to pick by what character flavor you like. A goliath or half-giant could be fun for the bully angle. Tieflings are nice if you just want to be Evil!

HP healing isn't really the problem- more exotic forms of damage tend to be much more difficult and expensive to fix without a divine caster. Negative levels and ability damage, for example, can wreck characters quite badly if you don't have somebody with access to Restoration effects.

Lesser restoration comes in wand form too.

Even if you have a divine caster in the party, everyone should chip in for a wand of lesser restoration and a wand of CLW or lesser vigor, just so the divine caster doesn't have to burn spell slots on patch jobs.

Where you really need a divine caster is for patching the wierd damage types, like dehydration damage, frostburn damage, or vile damage, othewise the wand will cover you well enough.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Big group at low-mid op. Your blackguard RKV idea should do just fine. Human is the default option for everything, but in that situation you can afford to pick by what character flavor you like. A goliath or half-giant could be fun for the bully angle. Tieflings are nice if you just want to be Evil!

If you want to be truly evil, there is little more haunting than an Evil aasimar.

That, and the stat boosts are wonderful for a blackguard (or a paladin).

[Big Fau]

Might I suggest looking into the Unofficial Errata (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=335.0)? It isn't perfect, but it really helps out.

[Slipperychicken]

If you want to be truly evil, there is little more haunting than an Evil aasimar.

I've seen it enough times (way too many aasimar and tieflings in our games), and it lost the shock value after a few seconds. They're humans with the Outsider type, gold eyes, and some stat adjustments. AFAIK, nothing compels them to be good, aside from daddy being an angel (Who listens to his parents anyway?). No surprise when one of 'em starts kicking puppies or selling off his blood (big market for Aasimar blood).

[gorfnab]

Human Paragon 1 (with Able Learner feat)/ Crusader 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Crusader 3 - fairly nice setup for an evil Crusader.

[Doomer123]

Lots of replies! Yay!

I think i'm gonna go with gorfnab's setup. It looks pretty sweet!

I don't know about the Human paragon tho, i'd like to take a race looking different from a human.

[gorfnab]

Lots of replies! Yay!

I think i'm gonna go with gorfnab's setup. It looks pretty sweet!

I don't know about the Human paragon tho, i'd like to take a race looking different from a human.
Human Paragon nets you the skills and will save necessary to enter Ur-Priest at level 6.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Lots of replies! Yay!

I think i'm gonna go with gorfnab's setup. It looks pretty sweet!

I don't know about the Human paragon tho, i'd like to take a race looking different from a human.

It is a pretty sweet setup, but I'd be concerned that full-tilt ur-priest casting might be a little high-power for your group.

Ur-priest is easily one of the most powerful PrC's available. Full cleric casting (minus domains) in ten levels? Yes please.

[Doomer123]

It is a pretty sweet setup, but I'd be concerned that full-tilt ur-priest casting might be a little high-power for your group.

Ur-priest is easily one of the most powerful PrC's available. Full cleric casting (minus domains) in ten levels? Yes please.

After reading everything the class have to offer, I agree that it might be a little bit over powered for the kind of people i'm going to play with..

And it may be a little bit too complex for me too right now, since I don't got a lot of DnD experience. I'll keep the build in mind for sure tho.

Maybe I could simply get going with a Crusader10/Deepstone Sentinel5 and whatever else after that, since DS looks nice, and it's kinda in my gameplay. (I wanna play something that can take tons of damage and protect my teammates.)

I'm open to every suggestions btw, keep throwing them, I love it. =)

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you're worried about a the potential for overwhelming complexity, there's nothing at all wrong with a straight crusader 20. The variety of abilities granted by maneuvers does wonders for keeping things from getting stale.

Btw, if you're going to be putting an emphasis on stone dragon anyway, be sure to pick up the shards of granite tactical feat. Bypassing DR and hardness while you're sitting on a cushion of temp hp is very nice.

[Doomer123]

Anyway, thanks to everyone who replied, you've been a great help.

I'll simply start off with crusader, with the prerequisites for Deepstone Sentinel, I may or may not take it.

I'll definitly keep the "Human Paragon 1 (with Able Learner feat)/ Crusader 4/ Ur-Priest 2/ Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/ Crusader 3" build for my next game tho, since it looks pretty strong and nice to play.

Thanks again guys.