Natural Attacks Question

[Mirakk]

Hey guys, I'm making a monk at the moment that will be gaining a lot of natural attacks. This character will be a Changeling Monk/Warshaper/Fist of the Forest. I figured it'd be a pretty cool concept, but I've got a couple of questions.

Through leveling features and various feats I'm taking my character's Unarmed Strikes and Natural Attacks will count as magical, and the claws may be enchanted like a melee weapon. His unarmed strikes will count as Lesser Ghost Touch Weapons as well.


Now here's my first question. A monk can use any part of their body to deliver an unarmed strike. That means his body is a lesser ghost touch weapon. If I deliver a natural attack, wouldn't that make my natural weapons also Lesser Ghost Touch? Or would I have to use my martial arts to deliver elbow strikes etc to get that property on my attacks?

This is kind of an unusual area. I'm guessing that the latter is the case, and I'd have to default to a normal Unarmed attack that round which is fine, given the high damage of my unarmed attacks anyway. I just want to hear if I'm way off on this.




The second question I have, is how my Natural Attacks will factor in on a full attack. Do I have to determine which type of attack I'll execute in a round? Unarmed vs Natural Weapons. Or, do I somehow gain both in the same round? I'm guessing I would have to determine what kind of full attack I'd be making, but again, I could be wrong so I wanted outside input. I've never really dealt with a situation like this before.


Any insight to the mechanics of Natural Weapons would be appreciated!

[TuggyNE]

If I deliver a natural attack, wouldn't that make my natural weapons also Lesser Ghost Touch? Or would I have to use my martial arts to deliver elbow strikes etc to get that property on my attacks?

I'm uncertain, actually; what feat or class feature is giving you ghost touch? Depending on the text it could go either way, I think.


The second question I have, is how my Natural Attacks will factor in on a full attack. Do I have to determine which type of attack I'll execute in a round? Unarmed vs Natural Weapons. Or, do I somehow gain both in the same round? I'm guessing I would have to determine what kind of full attack I'd be making

Nope! You mix natural weapon attacks in with your iteratives by total attack bonus, and they don't affect each other at all. Natural weapons are quite handy* because of this. So if your BAB is +11, you'll have +11/+6/+1 iteratives, and let's say two claws, +6/+6 — natural weapons mixed with iterative attacks are always considered secondary natural weapons, and so take a -5 penalty — for an overall attack of +11/+6/+6/+6/+1. You can reduce the penalty on your claws by taking Multiattack, assuming you can meet the prerequisites.

*No pun originally intended.

[HunterOfJello]

Umm... figuring out the rules for this stuff gets pretty complex. Unarmed attacks + flurry of blows + natural weapons gets pretty weird. I'm sure someone on here knows about the final rulings on this stuff though. It's much simpler than flurry of blows + TWF.

[Sticky]

Nope! You mix natural weapon attacks in with your iteratives by total attack bonus, and they don't affect each other at all.

I don't believe this is true. You can choose one or the other.

See SRD:Natural Weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons)

To summarize-
"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

[meemaas]

By that he means that the monk gets his full array of unarmed strikes from BAB, then he can take one attack with each of his natural weapons too. On a full attack of course.

[Mirakk]

The ghost touch feature is coming from the 2nd level Fist of the Forest (Su) ability Untamed Strike.

Untamed Strike (Su): On attaining 2nd level, you can channel the untamed power of nature when you attack. Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons; see the monk’s ki strike class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed strikes are already magical, they instead are treated lesser ghost touch weapons. They deal full damage against incorporeal creatures 50% of the time and half damage the rest of the time


Given the wording, it seems that it only effects unarmed strikes, so I was merely curious about hair splitting. I mean if I could deliver an unarmed attack with any part of my body, I could feasibly use my tail right? My tail is a natural weapon so...


As for the suggestion to take Multiattack, I am taking that, as well as improved multiattack to remove the penalty entirely.


Can anyone point me in the direction of Rapid Attack by the way? Supposedly it requires Weapon Finesse, and gives you an additional use of one of your natural attacks during a full attack. I've got the Draconomicon, which the feat is said to come from, but I can't seem to locate the feat anywhere in there.

[Urpriest]

The ghost touch feature is coming from the 2nd level Fist of the Forest (Su) ability Untamed Strike.

Untamed Strike (Su): On attaining 2nd level, you can channel the untamed power of nature when you attack. Your unarmed strikes are treated as magic weapons; see the monk’s ki strike class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed strikes are already magical, they instead are treated lesser ghost touch weapons. They deal full damage against incorporeal creatures 50% of the time and half damage the rest of the time


Given the wording, it seems that it only effects unarmed strikes, so I was merely curious about hair splitting. I mean if I could deliver an unarmed attack with any part of my body, I could feasibly use my tail right? My tail is a natural weapon so...


As for the suggestion to take Multiattack, I am taking that, as well as improved multiattack to remove the penalty entirely.


Can anyone point me in the direction of Rapid Attack by the way? Supposedly it requires Weapon Finesse, and gives you an additional use of one of your natural attacks during a full attack. I've got the Draconomicon, which the feat is said to come from, but I can't seem to locate the feat anywhere in there.

Fluffwise, your ghost touch ability doesn't mean your body is physically ethereal or anything. It's based on a monk's Ki strike, so it represents special unarmed techniques that enhance your martial arts attacks. It won't affect the instinctual attacks you get with your natural weapons because you don't use the same techniques with them.

The feat you're looking for is called Rapidstrike, it's in the Draconomicon, it has nothing to do with Weapon Finesse, but it does require a specific set of types.

[Mirakk]

Thanks Urpriest. That's what I figured, but I wanted to confirm with others.

Also, do you have a page reference for Rapidstrike? I keep hearing it's in Draconomicon, but it's not listed in the feats section of that book at all.

[Urpriest]

Thanks Urpriest. That's what I figured, but I wanted to confirm with others.

Also, do you have a page reference for Rapidstrike? I keep hearing it's in Draconomicon, but it's not listed in the feats section of that book at all.

Remember, Draconomicon has two feats sections, one for Dragons and one for more typical adventurers. Rapidstrike is in the former, on page 73.

[LTwerewolf]

I don't believe this is true. You can choose one or the other.

See SRD:Natural Weapons (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Natural_Weapons)

To summarize-
"Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

remember that a monk's unarmed strikes need not be done with the hands or feet. You get your full array of attacks with your unarmed, and then you get your natural attacks. natural attacks don't get the extra iteratives, but your unarmed does and you can use both in the same round. Just as was said earlier, your unarmed become your primary and everything else becomes secondary.

[Mirakk]

Thanks again. I found it shortly before checking this post again. I think I've got all my bases covered now. Thanks guys!

[Curmudgeon]

You get your full array of attacks with your unarmed, and then you get your natural attacks. That's not what the rule about full attacks says:

If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. There's no exception made when you have natural attacks, so all attacks get performed in decreasing AB order. You mix your iterative and natural attacks as necessary to follow the above rule.