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North_Ranger
2012-08-12, 09:40 AM
I'm currently in the process of planning a Pathfinder campaign for some friends who, for the most part, are tabletop newbies and fantasy virgins. One of the tougher nuts to crack in this respect is giving them reasonable examples of various he alignments. The PF core rule book is a good starting point, but I'm sure a little extra examples wouldn't hurt.

So far I've got this:

Lawful Good ("The Crusader"):
- Abraham Lincoln
- Ned Stark

Neutral Good ("The Good Guy"):
- Mahatma Gandhi
- Samwise Gamgee

Chaotic Good ("The Freedom Fighter"):
- Robin Hood
- William Tell
- Theodore Roosevelt


Lawful Neutral ("Traditionalist"):
- Jeeves

Neutral ("The Middle Way Man"):
- Buddha
- Sherlock Holmes
- Indiana Jones

Chaotic Neutral ("The Individualist"):
- Tyrion Lannister
- Dr Gregory House


Lawful Evil ("The Dictator"):
- Sauron
- The little Austrian guy with a funny mustache, whose name invokes Godwin's Law.
- The Devil
- Darth Vader

Neutral Evil ("The Mercenary"):
- Joffrey Baratheon

Chaotic Evil ("The Crazy"):
- The Joker
- serial killers
- the Drow
- Gregor Clegane, "The Mountain That Rides"

...and that's pretty much it at the time. So, any other people who'd make good poster boys (or babes) for the nine alignments? Real life, popular culture, whatever... everything goes.

Knaight
2012-08-12, 09:45 AM
You might want to replace the political and religious figures from that list, particularly the ones effectively guaranteed to spark heated argument (Che, Lucifer).

North_Ranger
2012-08-12, 09:56 AM
Drat, I was hoping to hear rational discussion. But... it's the Internet, what the hell was I thinking? :smalltongue:

CoffeeIncluded
2012-08-12, 09:58 AM
Drat, I was hoping to hear rational discussion. But... it's the Internet, what the hell was I thinking? :smalltongue:

That wasn't it, you can have a rational discussion using only fictional characters. It's just that political and religious discussion is banned on this sight.

For Chaotic Good, I think a good example would be Batman. He fights on the side of justice, but clearly outside the law, though he has an internal moral code. Or just link them to TvTropes and wait six hours or so. :smalltongue:

Manly Man
2012-08-12, 10:03 AM
Darth Vader should be put amongst the lawfully evil.

Dienekes
2012-08-12, 10:07 AM
Also, Gregor is the Mountain that Rides, Sandor is the slightly less evil more self aware brother.

It's also a bit hard to go into a real discussion until we really define our terms. Is lawful about following your own personal code come Hell or high water? Or is it about following the law? They have both been described as lawful on these boards and in campaign books but bring about very different characters.

For instance, Robin Hood definitely stood outside the law. But he also was portrayed with a very strong moral code that he never deviated from. So is he Lawful or Chaotic? If he is chaotic would that mean if we take a Lawful Good character and put them in an environment that goes against their morals chaotic if they fight to uphold their morals?

Of course none of this is new, but yeah I want to hear more about what you deem as lawful/chaotic, good/evil before we discuss further.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-08-12, 10:18 AM
Why is Neutral Evil described as "The Mercenary"? Fighting only for payment and not a cause is Chaotic Neutral at worst, but more often than not True Neutral, after all, the more impartial you are, the bigger your potential customer base.

Agrippa
2012-08-12, 10:29 AM
I'd say that Lawfuls believe that the needs and perogatives of society and institutions outweigh the rights of individuals, while Chaotic's believe the opposite. It's basically the needs of the many or State against the needs of the few.

Knaight
2012-08-12, 10:50 AM
Why is Neutral Evil described as "The Mercenary"? Fighting only for payment and not a cause is Chaotic Neutral at worst, but more often than not True Neutral, after all, the more impartial you are, the bigger your potential customer base.

Doing things only for money is generally neutral, yes. When you are looking at the killing people subset it gets significantly more murky, particularly as little things like ethics and scruples have a tendency to be missing from more successful contract killers.

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-12, 11:07 AM
For Chaotic Good, I think a good example would be Batman. He fights on the side of justice, but clearly outside the law, though he has an internal moral code.

Not as good of an example as you might think....
http://img.waffleimages.com/a3b3c06d3a4ab4d3965c39d6d12948c548581f66/t/Batlignments.jpg



On topic, for Neutral Good, I nominate badass action hero John McClane. And for Lawful Good, Optimus Prime.

CoffeeIncluded
2012-08-12, 11:12 AM
Haha, I don't think I've seen that one.

hymer
2012-08-12, 11:12 AM
Sorry to heckle, but Sauron isn't LE. Quoted from memory, Gandalf calls him "the Base Master of Treachery" at one point (in front of the black gate, to the Mouth), and rightly so. His skills are to a great extent in deceit and manipulation. Even his domination stems from lies.

Jeeves has been known to use physical force on a police officer, albeit to get his master out of a jam. Bit of a quandery there.

In short, I think it's better to explain the principles behind each axis than to make examples of known people, unless you're trying to make the point that alignment only makes sense seen from a certain perspective and with considerable leniency in interpretation.
Using the easy images, while convenient, like 'the Crazy' on CE also makes it more likely your players will adopt Lawful Stupid, Stupid Evil, etc. attitudes.

Sgt. Cookie
2012-08-12, 11:16 AM
Doing things only for money is generally neutral, yes. When you are looking at the killing people subset it gets significantly more murky, particularly as little things like ethics and scruples have a tendency to be missing from more successful contract killers.

True, but, killing someone for the sake of killing someone is different to killing someone for money.

Knaight
2012-08-12, 11:19 AM
Sorry to heckle, but Sauron isn't LE. Quoted from memory, Gandalf calls him "the Base Master of Treachery" at one point (in front of the black gate, to the Mouth), and rightly so. His skills are to a great extent in deceit and manipulation. Even his domination stems from lies.

There is absolutely nothing about lawful evil that prevents deceit and treachery from being the centerpiece of strategy.

Dienekes
2012-08-12, 11:21 AM
True, but, killing someone for the sake of killing someone is different to killing someone for money.

Different, but both would probably be filed under evil.

KillianHawkeye
2012-08-12, 11:31 AM
There is absolutely nothing about lawful evil that prevents deceit and treachery from being the centerpiece of strategy.

I agree. Remember, devils are the epitome of Lawful Evil in D&D, and deceit and treachery are two of their favorite things!

Ashtagon
2012-08-12, 11:43 AM
I'd drop Abe Lincoln from the lawful good slot. Without wishing to go into discussion, he probably wasn't. And naming no names, I doubt that any US president could ever be chaotic, given the requirements to reach high political office in the first place. I'd suggest certain religious leaders, but both religion and politics are not fit topics here.

Lawful good: Alice (Alice in Wonderland), Chihiro (Spirited Away), Buzz Lightyear, Austin Powers, Agent Smart (Get Smart), Captain Kirk, Maria (Sound of Music), Tevye (Fiddler on the Roof)

Neutral good: Roger Rabbit, Mulan, Woody (Toy Story), Beowulf, Flash Gordon, John Carter, Edward Scissorhands

Chaotic good: Doc Brown (Back to the Future), Calamity Jane, Mr Keating (Dead Poets Society), Spartacus, Indiana Jones, Jack Sparrow

Lawful neutral: Julius Caesar

Neutral: Twoflower (Discworld), Scott Pilgrim, Romeo (Romeo and Juliet)

Chaotic Neutral: Rincewind (Discworld), Beetlejuice

Lawful evil: Dracula, Ming the Merciless, Sauron

Neutral evil: Lo Pan (Big Trouble in Little China), Saruman (at the end), Dr Evil (Austin Powers)

Chaotic evil: the Martians (Mars Attacks), the Goblin King (Labyrinth)

Knaight
2012-08-12, 11:51 AM
Different, but both would probably be filed under evil.

My thoughts exactly. There are edge cases (particularly in fiction) where there are good mercenaries, and even good assassins, but the work isn't the sort that draws good people to it in general, and it certainly isn't the sort that cultivates a functioning moral compass.

Tragic_Comedian
2012-08-12, 12:02 PM
Robin Hood is the best example of Chaotic Good I can think of. Harry Potter is also a good example, when he isn't busy being Whiny Good. Jack Sparrow is pure Chaotic Neutral to my way of thinking. I would say that both Superman and Batman are Lawful Good, and that demonstrates how much a difference there can be between two people with the same alignment. I can't really think of a good example for Lawful Evil... Maybe Umbridge. The Joker, definitely Chaotic Evil. I think Jafar or Maleficent could be considered for Neutral Evil. Sora from Kingdom Hearts is the only thing I can think of for Neutral Good.

Archpaladin Zousha
2012-08-12, 01:59 PM
Don't forget one of the most Lawful Good figures in literature, King Arthur. At least as depicted in Camelot and The Once and Future King, Arthur's biggest concern is creating a world where "cruelty is not strength and compassion is not weakness." He cares about everyone in his realm, and when forced to choose between his own happiness and the stability of his realm, he goes with the latter, even if he knows he's condemning the two people he cares about more than any other, to death.

Roland St. Jude
2012-08-12, 02:04 PM
Sheriff: Real world religion and politics are prohibited topics on this forum - even when they intersect gaming topics. Please avoid these prohibited topics. The OP may restart this thread without references to religious and political figures as long as the new first post also warns posters to avoid these topics.