Rogue Build help needed

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

Ok first of all I am the DM and I want suggestions for the rogue player. He wants lots of skills. He focuses on thief skills.

There is an other rogue/swashbuckler in the party, focused on melee combat. The problem is, that he has so high intelligence, that he has more skills than the rogue only guy. He also optimized his build trying to get maximum sneak attacks. This will show in the future.

That upsets the rogue-only guy who was sure he had more skills than everyone else. So, I want to suggest a build (if possible without changing the levels he already has) that will make him feel better. (And hopefully make him stronger)

They are lvl 4, and they will soon be level 5.
He is rogue 4. Elf. Feats: Weapon Finesse, Two weapon fighting.
Str 15 Dex 20 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 13

He was thinking to become a shadowdancer. I can see how the hide in plain sight and the shadow look nice, but I don't think it fits his char and I don't think it is a good option anyway.

He is CG. Also magic items are very available.

Any help will be appreciated. Thanks.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

He may say he wants lots of skills, but his character building decisions say he wants to kill things with stabbing. Why do you feel he needs a boost?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Use Magic Device. Max it out ASAP. (skill focus, circlet of persuasion, consider allowing a mundane item with a competence bonus.) grab a Rapier, buckler, wand bracer and wand chambers (for weapon and shield) from Dungeonscape. He can "wield" 3 wands at once, including the free hand the buckler allows. This set up also permits access to 5 more wands via a swift action draw.

Give him access to a wide array of wands, and your rogue will NEVER run out of things to do.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

He may say he wants lots of skills, but his character building decisions say he wants to kill things with stabbing. Why do you feel he needs a boost?

Because he doesn't succeed at stabbing things. Also because the rest of the party is optimized, and he isn't. And because the NPCs are optimized too. :smallbiggrin:

@Duncan_Ruadrik ....and I just realized he has no use magic device at all. I will check them out anyway though. Thanks.

[Urpriest]

If there is already a Rogue/Swashbuckler in the party, why did this guy decide to play a Rogue? To put it another way, when you guys discussed characters, what was the planned difference between the two characters' party roles?

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

If there is already a Rogue/Swashbuckler in the party, why did this guy decide to play a Rogue? To put it another way, when you guys discussed characters, what was the planned difference between the two characters' party roles?

That is bugging me too.

In the beginning they were 3, 2 rogues and 1 wiz/psion. He wanted to go ranged. After a while, everyone told him that sneak attack with ranged weapons was kinda...very hard.

The other guy doesn't really try to have skills, he wants to tank (tries to put int to damage+AC) and sneak...but with his intelligence, it kinda happened.

Then a new guy joined, and he made a cleric/rogue. No one disagreed at all.

Then undead happened, and the new guy retrained his rogue levels (after the undead were over, lol).

Then a sorcerer joined too.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Because he doesn't succeed at stabbing things. Also because the rest of the party is optimized, and he isn't. And because the NPCs are optimized too. :smallbiggrin:

I guess my question was more 'why does he need a boost to his skills?' rather than a boost to his stabbing things ability. It seems like every character decision he's made, from stat allocation to feat selection, has prioritized combat.

[Ydaer Ca Noit]

I guess my question was more 'why does he need a boost to his skills?' rather than a boost to his stabbing things ability. It seems like every character decision he's made, from stat allocation to feat selection, has prioritized combat.

I mentioned the skills, because I feel he will regret having a prestige class with 2+int skill points per level. Other than that, his skills are already fine at this level.

If you have a class with very little skills but better combat, I will still present it to him though :smallsmile:

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So just advice as I think of it, without any sort of order.

He needs Craven. Retrain Weapon Finesse and use Feycraft weapons instead. Darkstalker + Hide in Plain Sight (from an item, like the Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis) is one of the easiest ways to set SA up outside of ToB. If it's available, he should get Assassin's Stance when he can. Maybe pick up a level of Fighter with the SA variant and the sub level from DotU? Point him towards Staggering Strike as well. Making sure he gets access to items and spells that allow him to SA things which are normally immune will go a long way towards ensuring combat effectiveness.

If possible, he should have taken Penetrating Strike from Dungeonscape, trading out Trap Sense.

Edit: I think the biggest thing is, though, that it's his character and not yours. I know that seems really aggressive, but you seem to have a plan in mind for this character's development that doesn't quite square with what the player wants. It seems to me that you're trying to steer him in a skill-monkey direction to avoid competing with the other PCs. The player, though, has made every decision in an anti-skill way. Yeah, he's a Rogue, but he's also one with his lowest stat in Intelligence who started with TWF and WFinesse. That says he wants to be in combat.

Now, if the player isn't happy with the niche he's created and wants something else, the best answer might be to let him rebuild, either completely or partially, keeping his race and class. That's going to be a better fix than trying to respecialize a very limited, suboptimal character on the fly.

[gorfnab]

Rogue's Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8711233)

[Curmudgeon]

I generally advise Rogues to put their top score in INT, to leverage the x4 skill multiplier at 1st level. DEX should start out second best, but get all the increments every 4 levels. The right type of Elf can help here. There's the Gray Elf (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elf.htm#grayElf): +2 INT, -2 STR; and Dragonlance Campaign Setting has Silvanesti Elf: +2 DEX, +2 INT, -2 CON, -2 CHA. I like that one quite a lot, in part because the race also has Elvensight: low-light vision plus 30' darkvision.

If this character is going for Shadowdancer, CON can be a dump stat. If you can't be seen you can't be targeted. Evasion and good Reflex saves cover most of the rest. You can also get by with lower STR, because your damage is going to come primarily from sneak attack, not weapon die size or STR bonus.

Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting are sucky feats. As QuickLyRaiNbow suggested, you can get by with light Feycraft weapons (Dungeon Master's Guide II, page 275) and skip Weapon Finesse. You're going to want Craven no later than level 6. You need to work on the Shadowdancer prerequisites right from character creation, so start out with Combat Reflexes or Dodge. You can buy Mobility as an armor enhancement which grants the feat (Magic Item Compendium, page 13), so put that on the shopping list. Two-Weapon Fighting is very expensive in terms of feats (and also 2x the weapon costs), and so is Shadowdancer, so skip TWF entirely. After all, this character is supposed to be skillful, not a dedicated melee combatant.

[Hiro Protagonest]

Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting are sucky feats.

Not on a rogue they're not. You don't need strength, you rely on sneak attack. Dual-wielding gives you nearly double sneak attacking power.


For skills, I recommend he goes factotum instead of rogue. Of course, it's less "good at skills" and more "good at anything it uses inspiration points on".

[Popertop]

Curmudgeon is my hero.

I second his advice, if you allow the whole item qualifying you for a prestige class thing.

Also a slight note on the gray elf, in the SRD it mentions the adjustments are in addition to the high elf traits.

If high elf is the vanilla elf in PHB then...

That would mean a net total of +2 Dex, +2 Int, -2 Con, -2 Str

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Not on a rogue they're not. You don't need strength, you rely on sneak attack. Dual-wielding gives you nearly double sneak attacking power.


For skills, I recommend he goes factotum instead of rogue. Of course, it's less "good at skills" and more "good at anything it uses inspiration points on".

eh, Two Weapon Fighting is a trap for rogues in my opinion. It only doubles their sneak attack if they don't miss. Taking a -2 penalty for light weapons on top of a 3/4 BAB is a set up for lots of missing. Since you also must get into position for sneak attacks via flanking, TWF is a waste since you can't use it after a move action.

Also, a STR based rogue dishes out the most damage of any rogue build, and does so consistently. Even on a Rogue, Weapon Finesse can be a trap.

my recommended UMD Rogue build above is my go to for rogues, though it still uses Finesse.

[dspeyer]

Arrange for him to get bitten by a wererat. He'll get the ability to shrink, and a massive boost to his climbing. Should be great for sneaking into places unseen.

[killianh]

with a rogue/swashbuckler build already in use, I would suggest either factotum, or maybe beguiler if he isn't looking for combat to be his main role.

otherwise maybe try


Swift Ambusher
Rogue 3/Scout 3/Cloistered Cleric 1/Rogue +13
Take Swift Ambusher, Improved Skirmish, Craven, Travel Devotion, and Knowledge Devotion (devotions via cloistered cleric). This gets you 8d6+20 Sneak Attack, 7d6/+7 Skirmish, and 3 rogue Special Abilities. It's a very damaging archer build, with a lot of skill points too.

[Kelb_Panthera]

eh, Two Weapon Fighting is a trap for rogues in my opinion. It only doubles their sneak attack if they don't miss. Taking a -2 penalty for light weapons on top of a 3/4 BAB is a set up for lots of missing. Since you also must get into position for sneak attacks via flanking, TWF is a waste since you can't use it after a move action.

Also, a STR based rogue dishes out the most damage of any rogue build, and does so consistently. Even on a Rogue, Weapon Finesse can be a trap.

my recommended UMD Rogue build above is my go to for rogues, though it still uses Finesse.

Twf is good for the rogue's average damage even though it can make any individual encounter slightly dicier. (that was not meant to be a pun)

It's unquestionably the way to go for dps if he's getting buffed, and, seeing as he's got several casters in his party and possibly ranks in UMD, being buffed seems rather likely.

[Curmudgeon]

Not on a rogue they're not. You don't need strength, you rely on sneak attack. Dual-wielding gives you nearly double sneak attacking power.
I agree that you don't need Strength for a Rogue, but TWF really doesn't give much "sneak attacking power", if any. You've simply got to think this through rather than jumping to conclusions.

As Duncan_Ruadrik noted, 3/4 BAB with a minimum -2 penalty to all attacks (more for iteratives, of course) is a recipe for misses. But we're getting ahead of things here. You get zero benefit from Two-Weapon Fighting in all of the following situations:

in a surprise round
with effective missile attacks
if you have to move more than 5'
with attacks of opportunity
(Yes, that second one discounts the usefulness of throwing weapons. You would need Quick Draw, or pay +600 gp for masterwork + Crystal of Least Return for every single dart/javelin, in addition to Two-Weapon Fighting. There are many more effective ways for a Rogue to expend resources.)

As a superior alternative, check out Snap Kick in Tome of Battle. That gives a bonus unarmed attack with all of the following:

full attacks including at least one melee attack
standard action melee attacks
attacks of opportunity
bonus attacks, such as granted by Improved Trip
You can buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite cheaply, too: it's only 1,310 gp for Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn), which grant the feat.

Rogues with their d6 HD and class skills impaired by wearing more than light armor are very squishy. Being required to make full attacks means inviting full counterattacks. A feat which constrains Rogues to a fighting style that's ill-suited to the class is a recipe for disaster.

The -2 penalty to all attacks is just the start of the actual deficit which TWF imposes to hurt the Rogue. Having to buy twice the weapons and weapon enhancements means the TWF Rogue is consistently about -1 to attack and damage vs. the Rogue who put enhancements to just one weapon. Also there's the cost of the TWF feat itself. By choosing that feat, the Rogue has failed to choose something which will instead improve something else, like attack or damage. That alternative feat should be at least as good as Weapon Focus, meaning the TWF Rogue is really at about a total -4 deficit vs. the single weapon Rogue. That's the equivalent of 6 class levels for the difference in attack bonus, for instance. I use Weapon Focus just as a minimum for comparison purposes. More likely the single weapon Rogue would choose Craven, and get +(character level) in bonus sneak attack damage. Craven, because it scales with character level, is a vastly superior feat to Two-Weapon Fighting: the first feat in the chain is sucky, and the following feats are worse (same cost: 1 feat; lesser return: decreasing chance to hit with iterative attack penalties).

Yes, making more attacks could result in more sneak attack damage. But if you do the analysis, you'll see that Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't deliver on that goal.

[The Random NPC]

I'm currently playing a rogue going into assassin, and I grabbed TWF because I couldn't find a more suitable feat that I qualified for. Now I'm wishing I had grabbed Improved Initiative instead (although I'd still be trying to figure out what feat to grab at third level.)

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

Stuff...

Yes, making more attacks could result in more sneak attack damage. But if you do the analysis, you'll see that Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't deliver on that goal.

big +1. also, eric grau (sp?) did some maths, which showed the rogue was better off with a single weapon and buckler up until at least level 10. Only after level 10 does TWF start to give reasonable returns, and even then it doesnt count increased expenses, and it assumes you are getting buffed somehow.

Finesse is still viable, though still not THE most optimal. TWF... not so much.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I'm actually a big proponent of TWF (and I have done math of my own, exhaustively)... But I'm not about to rehash that old argument.

Weapon Finesse isn't a recommended feat not because keying your attacks off of DEX is useless--built right, it can very well work--but because you can buy a Feycraft light weapon fairly cheap. On average, you'd lose 1 damage on a short sword (and half that on a kukri or dagger), and the weapons use your DEX to hit as if you had Weapon Finesse--the only thing it doesn't do is actually give you the feat (which your Rogue probably didn't qualify for anyway, if he took it at 1st level).

If Tome of Battle is on the table, Shadow Hand maneuvers give you all the Shadow-themed fluff, plus some cool abilities, and access to the Shadow Blade feat--provided you are in a Shadow Hand stance (and there are some good ones to consider). Basically, your DEX based fighter now adds DEX to damage for all attacks--without substituting STR.

[Gwendol]

The daring outlaw build is going to better suited for TWF than the rogue, due to better BAB and HD. Pump STR and SA using 2-handed fighting instead.

[Telonius]

You can buy the Improved Unarmed Strike prerequisite cheaply, too: it's only 1,310 gp for Bracers of Striking (Magic of Faerûn), which grant the feat.


A single level of Monk would get it as well. Plus better saves, a free feat (if you really want Weapon Finesse, you can get it free through Sleeping Tiger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sleepingTiger) style), and equal BAB if you're using fractional. Rogue19/Anything1 is better than Rogue20...

EDIT: Blah, didn't see the CG in the original post.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm currently playing a rogue going into assassin, and I grabbed TWF because I couldn't find a more suitable feat that I qualified for. Now I'm wishing I had grabbed Improved Initiative instead (although I'd still be trying to figure out what feat to grab at third level.) Craven is generally a good choice at level 3 or level 6. (Before that it doesn't add enough extra damage to be significant.) Craven addresses a fundamental weakness of the Rogue class, so that's an easy answer. There are literally thousands of D&D feats, and Sturgeon's Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Revelation) applies, so you've got to do some analysis before picking one for your Rogue.

As with most core feats, I believe Improved Initiative isn't worth the cost for a Rogue. Initiative is always relative, with up to 19 difference just from the d20 roll. +4 doesn't swing the action order enough to guarantee anything. Because they are precious to Rogues, I prefer investing in feats that have more reliable returns.

So let's look at what you're attempting to accomplish: i.e., what does better initiative do for you? It lets you go earlier when you get a chance to act. But if the other guy had a surprise round and you didn't, you may already be dead by the time initiative is rolled. :smalleek: So the real emphasis should be on getting to act early in any encounter; initiative is only a small part of the issue.

Avoiding being surprised is something that a Rogue can address better than almost any other class, because they have both Spot and Listen as class skills, and decent skill points. Maxing out Spot and Listen lets the Rogue notice trouble before it arrives, and also furthers the class's forward scouting capabilities. By advancing quietly ahead of their noisier companions, the Rogue can reconnoiter to help the entire party avoid being surprised. A party without a scout will often find themselves subject to ambush because enemies heard/saw them coming and had a chance to prepare.

We next need to consider how to cope when there is no surprise round. Again, better initiative is good, but not the only way to get to take useful action at the start of an encounter. A Rogue/Shadowdancer, or Rogue/Assassin (level 8+) in the forward scouting position (perhaps doing their Search for traps bit) is likely the point guy for encountering trouble. However, the enemy doesn't have to know that, because Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight means the character can Hide pretty much continually, including every time they move. An enemy might walk right by on their way to attack the first party member they do see. That's when Combat Reflexes proves its worth: the Rogue gets to make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed, and (since they can Hide while attacking) they get to keep doing so for (1 + DEX mod) attacks each round.

It pays to think these things through. The Rogue may be the single most complex class (to build, and to play) in D&D.

[The Random NPC]

Craven is generally a good choice at level 3 or level 6. (Before that it doesn't add enough extra damage to be significant.) Craven addresses a fundamental weakness of the Rogue class, so that's an easy answer. There are literally thousands of D&D feats, and Sturgeon's Revelation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Revelation) applies, so you've got to do some analysis before picking one for your Rogue.

As with most core feats, I believe Improved Initiative isn't worth the cost for a Rogue. Initiative is always relative, with up to 19 difference just from the d20 roll. +4 doesn't swing the action order enough to guarantee anything. Because they are precious to Rogues, I prefer investing in feats that have more reliable returns.

So let's look at what you're attempting to accomplish: i.e., what does better initiative do for you? It lets you go earlier when you get a chance to act. But if the other guy had a surprise round and you didn't, you may already be dead by the time initiative is rolled. :smalleek: So the real emphasis should be on getting to act early in any encounter; initiative is only a small part of the issue.

Avoiding being surprised is something that a Rogue can address better than almost any other class, because they have both Spot and Listen as class skills, and decent skill points. Maxing out Spot and Listen lets the Rogue notice trouble before it arrives, and also furthers the class's forward scouting capabilities. By advancing quietly ahead of their noisier companions, the Rogue can reconnoiter to help the entire party avoid being surprised. A party without a scout will often find themselves subject to ambush because enemies heard/saw them coming and had a chance to prepare.

We next need to consider how to cope when there is no surprise round. Again, better initiative is good, but not the only way to get to take useful action at the start of an encounter. A Rogue/Shadowdancer, or Rogue/Assassin (level 8+) in the forward scouting position (perhaps doing their Search for traps bit) is likely the point guy for encountering trouble. However, the enemy doesn't have to know that, because Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight means the character can Hide pretty much continually, including every time they move. An enemy might walk right by on their way to attack the first party member they do see. That's when Combat Reflexes proves its worth: the Rogue gets to make attacks of opportunity while flat-footed, and (since they can Hide while attacking) they get to keep doing so for (1 + DEX mod) attacks each round.

It pays to think these things through. The Rogue may be the single most complex class (to build, and to play) in D&D.

To expand on my issue, I had three feats at level one, and had already chosen Craven and Darkstalker. I wanted to grab three levels of Swashbuckler for the Int to damage, and the free Weapon Finesse. I was at a loss for the third feat, but decided to go with Two-weapon fighting for the chance to double my sneak attack. I got two levels last session, and I can't seem to find any feats that I both qualify for and feel will help my sneaking/killing things.
EDIT: Although, I suppose I can always grab Combat Reflexes for the extra AoO.