Tibbits and Illusions, oh my!

[AlchemicalMyst]

So I have a few questions about my new Tibbit character (first time) and illusions, particularly Disguise Self.

Tibbit:
I am playing a Dark Chameleon Tibbit and a few questions came up since not only am I the first of our group to ever actually play a Tibbit but I have a few templates as well that may complicate things ha. So in regards to the Feline Transformation ability, since it functions just as Polymorph except as listed changes, am I correct in assuming the following?

1. I keep all my normal qualities and abilities such as Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, Hide in Plain Sight (racial), and my climb speed as well as gaining Scent and a cat's normal Dex for climb and jump correct?
2. Do I keep my normal racial bonuses for skills and attributes in addition to gaining those of the cat form? (hide, jump, climb, etc)
3. I heal HP as though resting a full night when shifting into cat form? If so, would you consider it balanced, as a GM, to get rid of the heal factor AND the one hour wait time?
4. Is the cat form set in stone or can I look different if I choose at each change like Polymorph?
5. Can Tibbits speak Feline while in cat form? Seems silly but wording on transformation leans towards no, haha. Also, how about writing with claws?

Disguise Self and like illusions:

So my GM is a stickler for the rules, which is fine as I am too, however this leads to some tricky RAW vs RAI situations.

What I want to do is get a Hat of Disguise (DMG 258) in order to help my character blend in with "normals" and possibly aid in getting away from pursuers in combination with my magically shapeshifting clothing and cloak. Problem with illusions is that people get Will Saves to break them when studying them or interacting with them. Here is the scenario my GM and I were debating on.

Say I wear the hat in order to change my skin color to appear less "dark" and more life like, my eyes to be less cat like, and my hair color to red or something. He rules, until I can show him something that convinces him otherwise, that literally anyone who touches me gets a save! I find that ruling to make Disguise self one of the most useless spells.

It pretty much comes down to what interaction with the glamer means. With the PHB's spell description and description of how Illusion spells work I believe the character gets to make a will save only when studying it closely or when the illusion can't hold up to what your senses perceive. For example trying to touch the beard not really there or hearing clanking plate armor when the robed man runs by; however, changes like color can only be rolled against when scrutinized as there is no way to actually interact with the glamer.

Combined with THIS PAGE (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060221a) I feel as though this is the correct interpretation, but I could be wrong! :smallredface:

We would both just like to really know the community's opinion on this as we're both scratching our heads. Especially since my character depends on it! :smallbiggrin:

Side note, what would you guys rule as studying closely? The guards looking through a line-up for sure, but how about the guard at the gate watching the crowd or even even the one checking my character for weapons?

[Malroth]

The one checking your weapons definately should get a save but the one waving harmless looking people at the gate should only get a save if he's blowing a move action or more on each passerby.

[Gamer Girl]

Disguise Self and like illusions:

It pretty much comes down to what interaction with the glamer means. With the PHB's spell description and description of how Illusion spells work I believe the character gets to make a will save only when studying it closely or when the illusion can't hold up to what your senses perceive.

Side note, what would you guys rule as studying closely? The guards looking through a line-up for sure, but how about the guard at the gate watching the crowd or even even the one checking my character for weapons?

Interaction with a glamer with your senses, including touch, get you a will save. So when they touch someone under a disguise self spell, that's interaction.

Why would you think that someone touching a glamor illusion would not get a save? Does that not make sense? You want a picky thing or two to nitpick, ok, how about: When you touch a glamor there is a small chance that your hand passes through illusion cover so you'd see a slight 'ripple'. Think of a glamor kind of like a perfect smooth body of water, but if you touch it, you will cause it to ripple, even slightly and notice.

And naturally this goes like triple if your disguising something physical, like making a hairy face look smooth and clean shaven.

In general, to study closely, a character needs to take an action and spend at least a minute doing so. So, in general, the average guard does not 'study closely'. Though I also have 'quick study' guards and guards that can just detect magic, of course. And I sure count 'magic items' as equal to 'weapons' so my guards check for them. And hats of disguise are illegal or close to illegal in most places anyway.

[AlchemicalMyst]

No need to sound hostile, if I wanted that I would stick to WoTC forums. :smallmad:

Interaction with a glamer with your senses, including touch, get you a will save. So when they touch someone under a disguise self spell, that's interaction.

Why would you think that someone touching a glamor illusion would not get a save? Does that not make sense?
That by shaking my hand you get a will save to see through my eyes not really being blue? No it doesn't make sense at all.


You want a picky thing or two to nitpick, ok, how about: When you touch a glamor there is a small chance that your hand passes through illusion cover so you'd see a slight 'ripple'. Think of a glamor kind of like a perfect smooth body of water, but if you touch it, you will cause it to ripple, even slightly and notice.
I'm not nitpicking at all, what is with the hostility? Again this whole thing comes down to what it means to "interact" with the glamer. Through the books and the wizard post all examples are literally poking through the illusion with a stick or yourself or studying it closely. No examples consist of a slight detail or color.

You say to think of it that way but no where at all does it mention anything even close to that. Again it's entirely up to the GM. Mine doesn't even think of it like that, he just says it says "interact" with the glamer. A very RAI term. In fact on the forums back in the day some people argued that talking to the person using Disguise Self counted as interacting... Again, which is why Wizards had to clarify. Still they clarified on a full blown creation and not just a detail.



And naturally this goes like triple if your disguising something physical, like making a hairy face look smooth and clean shaven.
Of course, no argument


In general, to study closely, a character needs to take an action and spend at least a minute doing so. So, in general, the average guard does not 'study closely'. Varies by GM. I've had some say that the guard made a spot check and saw a shimmer from me and thus was able to study me more closely warranting the will save when I played my halfling illusionist. Needless to say, early levels sucked.


Though I also have 'quick study' guards and guards that can just detect magic, of course. And I sure count 'magic items' as equal to 'weapons' so my guards check for them.So you turned your guards into player hating metal detectors? Good job...?


And hats of disguise are illegal or close to illegal in most places anyway.
That's a nice tidbit of your campaign world. Thank you for sharing.



It is in my experience that GMs should never ever ever be against the players. It's not the GM's job. The GM is supposed to make a fun and interesting story in which the characters play out. Yes there is need for balance and core rules or, for those homebrew games, different rules but rules nonetheless. If you want to make a world in which all the guards check constantly for magic items and weapons in setting which in it's very center a setting where everyone carries a sword and magic item or two then fine so be it. However, keep in mind that's very against the players. If that is the setting and feel you and your players want then so be it but please don't let it influence how you help people determine Rules As Written.

[That_guy_there]

1. I keep all my normal qualities and abilities such as Darkvision, Superior Low-Light Vision, Hide in Plain Sight (racial), and my climb speed as well as gaining Scent and a cat's normal Dex for climb and jump correct?


I'd say you keep your mental stats and any racial bonuses, but since the transformation is keyed off of Polymorph (which itself is keyed to Alter Self) i think by RAW you lose your darkvision and superior lowlight vision. (which i think is dumb but seems to be what happens). and indeed do use a cat's dex for those skills.




2. Do I keep my normal racial bonuses for skills and attributes in addition to gaining those of the cat form? (hide, jump, climb, etc)

Apparently Alter Self lets you keep racial skill bonuses and feats (As they are special qualities not linked to your physical form), so you keep them while transformed as nothing in the description changes that.



3. I heal HP as though resting a full night when shifting into cat form? If so, would you consider it balanced, as a GM, to get rid of the heal factor AND the one hour wait time?

Again, it doesn't seem right, but it does seem like RAW that you'd heal HP. (when i played a tibbit, my DM nixed the healing stating that lycanthropes and dopplgangers don't heal when changing). I think if you're nixing the healing you should nix the wait time, treating it like a natural born lycanthrope.



4. Is the cat form set in stone or can I look different if I choose at each change like Polymorph?

Again, it would seem that your cat form is set. However, the aforementioned Dm let me change very minor details, mostly my stripped pattern.



5. Can Tibbits speak Feline while in cat form? Seems silly but wording on transformation leans towards no, haha. Also, how about writing with claws?

It does seem to suggest you cannot speak feline in cat form, BUT the Feline language is a toungue spoke by cats with an Intelligence of 3 or higher so you should be able to speak it (but remember your party cannot learn it and you cant use it to cast spells). And no, you cant use your claws to write with... although that is similar to something I have tried in wildshape before and got yelled at. Alot. (I had a cohort and we were doing an "Intelligent animal" act where he was the trainer and i was the show piece. I, as a horse, using no magic at all would write the answer to any simple math question a target asked. It ended with use cheating lots of people out of money)



It pretty much comes down to what interaction with the glamer means. With the PHB's spell description and description of how Illusion spells work I believe the character gets to make a will save only when studying it closely or when the illusion can't hold up to what your senses perceive. For example trying to touch the beard not really there or hearing clanking plate armor when the robed man runs by; however, changes like color can only be rolled against when scrutinized as there is no way to actually interact with the glamer.Side note, what would you guys rule as studying closely? The guards looking through a line-up for sure, but how about the guard at the gate watching the crowd or even even the one checking my character for weapons?

OK, so the major thing here is interaction and scrutinizing.
Color changes wouldn't require an instant save in most campaigns I've been in. However a guard patting you down for weapons would get a save (even for something like hair color) since thats the nature of interacting with someone under a galmer. They're close to you and looking you over with a purpose.
A gaurd ten feet away simply watching over the crowd wouldn't get a save unles he was specifically watching YOU. And even in that case most games i've been would impose a penalty on the save unless you did something to arouse suspision.

For my group "Study closely" involves either actively watching someone (a full round action or longer) or physically touching / examining them.

[AlchemicalMyst]

I'd say you keep your mental stats and any racial bonuses, but since the transformation is keyed off of Polymorph (which itself is keyed to Alter Self) i think by RAW you lose your darkvision and superior lowlight vision. (which i think is dumb but seems to be what happens). and indeed do use a cat's dex for those skills.
The losing the vision is indeed dumb as you don't gain the Low-Light vision of the cat either. Hmmmmm :smallfrown:

Also, this adds some confusion to the mix as well:
"Aside from the changes noted here, a tibbit's
abilities and game statistics otherwise remain the
same."

What does it all mean!? xD


Again, it doesn't seem right, but it does seem like RAW that you'd heal HP. (when i played a tibbit, my DM nixed the healing stating that lycanthropes and dopplgangers don't heal when changing). I think if you're nixing the healing you should nix the wait time, treating it like a natural born lycanthrope.
Yeah I think it's a fair change bringing it to 3.5.


It does seem to suggest you cannot speak feline in cat form, BUT the Feline language is a toungue spoke by cats with an Intelligence of 3 or higher so you should be able to speak it (but remember your party cannot learn it and you cant use it to cast spells). true true


And no, you cant use your claws to write with...
Any particular reason? I know it's been mentioned that sign language and writing can be used as long has the polymorphed form has functioning hands that allow such use.


although that is similar to something I have tried in wildshape before and got yelled at. Alot. (I had a cohort and we were doing an "Intelligent animal" act where he was the trainer and i was the show piece. I, as a horse, using no magic at all would write the answer to any simple math question a target asked. It ended with use cheating lots of people out of money)
Hahahaha brilliant! :smallbiggrin:




OK, so the major thing here is interaction and scrutinizing.
Color changes wouldn't require an instant save in most campaigns I've been in. However a guard patting you down for weapons would get a save (even for something like hair color) since thats the nature of interacting with someone under a galmer. They're close to you and looking you over with a purpose.
I would like to point out that RAW states it as "interacting" with the glamer itself not the person. Which is where every GM I've brought this up to goes "hmmm, have a point," and then continues to have a completely different view than the previous GMs including myself haha.


A gaurd ten feet away simply watching over the crowd wouldn't get a save unles he was specifically watching YOU. And even in that case most games i've been would impose a penalty on the save unless you did something to arouse suspision.

For my group "Study closely" involves either actively watching someone (a full round action or longer) or physically touching / examining them. Same here. Although most GMs I've played under have it as a move action, which is fine but sucks haha.

[That_guy_there]

The only thing I can really add is that Cats don't really have "Functioning Hands" cabable of writing. They don't really have the ability to put out one finger/ claw to scratch out a sentence... its kinda all or nothing. At least thats how it works with the cat who lives with me...

The interacting with the "Glamer" as opposed to the "Person" is interesting but for me, all kind of the same. If the glamer were on its own, yeah...
But I think of it like this:
"If a wizard puts a glamer on a red wall to make it look blue and you interact with the wall, lets say to climb it, you should get a save even though you haven't interacted with the glamer specifically."

Interestingly making people only get a save is they interact with the glamer leads to a situation like this one: I played in a really old campaign where we were going through a dungeon of death filled with illusion covered traps. After our third trapped room one of our group screamed "Thats it! Everything is f---ing illusions! I disbelieve the Illusion! Whatever we see I disblieve it!"
And for the rest of that delve everytime we came into a room and the DM finished the description his character pointed at the room (or things inside) and screamed "I disbelieve the Ilusion!"

So... thats kind of why I take the whole "if the illusions on someone and you interact with them, you get a save' road.

[Gamer Girl]

That by shaking my hand you get a will save to see through my eyes not really being blue? No it doesn't make sense at all. I'm not nitpicking at all, what is with the hostility? Again this whole thing comes down to what it means to "interact" with the glamer. Through the books and the wizard post all examples are literally poking through the illusion with a stick or yourself or studying it closely. No examples consist of a slight detail or color.

Well, you are nitpicking. Sure logically, if you use disguise self to change your eye color only, then a pat on the back from someone should not grant them a save. But this is where the nitpicking can go on forever. There is no official ruling on this. Officially they just do it the easy way:interaction is anything and anything can be anything just make it up yourself, next.

But the idea is that illusions, as they are not real, have tiny 'give aways' that people can notice...buy making a will save. For example: an illusion would not cast a shadow, so your illusion of a cloak or hat would cast no shadow. An illusion would not interact with light the same way normal matter does, a metal belt buckle won't reflect light.

But for more physical ones: You cover your hair with a glamor making it pink and someone touches your hair. For that split second as they move your hair, they move your real hair out of the illusionary hair cover and see a slight shimmer as the illusion does a readjustment for unexpected movement.

You could say 'slight' details don't give a save, but I'd say they would need to be so 'slight' that they would not even matter.




So you turned your guards into player hating metal detectors? Good job...?

My World is so much worse then this too....Muuhahahahahaa






It is in my experience that GMs should never ever ever be against the players. It's not the GM's job. The GM is supposed to make a fun and interesting story in which the characters play out. Yes there is need for balance and core rules or, for those homebrew games, different rules but rules nonetheless. If you want to make a world in which all the guards check constantly for magic items and weapons in setting which in it's very center a setting where everyone carries a sword and magic item or two then fine so be it. However, keep in mind that's very against the players. If that is the setting and feel you and your players want then so be it but please don't let it influence how you help people determine Rules As Written.

It's not against the players, it's just the setting. You make it sound like if NPC's lock their doors that it's 'against' the players. As if the players should get the red carpet rolled out for them in the game or something. And a 'for the players' world makes no sense to me: where the guards would just ignore the fact that magic exists and act like everything is mundane. Guard-''Durr, where did that wizard guy go, he just was gone..oh well lets go get some donuts''. While my guard partols have at least one wiz 1 with a wand of detect invisibility.

Ok, about RAW....all we can do is tell you how we do it. To put it simply, there is noting to 'determine'. There is no official ruling on illusions. They Left It All Vague. On Purpose.

[TuggyNE]

Interestingly making people only get a save is they interact with the glamer leads to a situation like this one: I played in a really old campaign where we were going through a dungeon of death filled with illusion covered traps. After our third trapped room one of our group screamed "Thats it! Everything is f---ing illusions! I disbelieve the Illusion! Whatever we see I disblieve it!"
And for the rest of that delve everytime we came into a room and the DM finished the description his character pointed at the room (or things inside) and screamed "I disbelieve the Ilusion!"

Did you disbelieve the air (http://agc.deskslave.org/comic_viewer.html?goNumber=54), too?

[That_guy_there]

:smallsmile:

HAHAHA, that was exactly what happened...

Heh, he disbielved a gas trap that we walked into though. Green gas started fill the hall and he started with the disbeileving... it didn't help him. :smallfrown:

[Feralventas]

I would stand with your DM in the context that physical contact would normally warrant a will-save when dealing with illusions like hiding a door behind a vision of a wall, or being chomped on by a Phantasmal Killer. In the case of disguise self however, I would think that the only reason to incur a will-save would be if the physical contact would dis-agree with what the illusion is portraying; you're only using it to alter Visual differences, not physical ones, and the Dark Creature template's only physical alterations that aren't visual is the little bit of text that states that a Dark Creature tends to weigh less because it is part shadowstuff.

That said, you can do little visual alterations like this with a Prestidigitation spell, so burning a 1st level spell slot or the cost of a Hat of Disguise seems a bit much. You might look into a permanent Hat of Prestidigitation for a cheaper option to much the same result.

You could also just stay in cat-form since black cats really aren't all that odd as a generalization unless you're in the land of Dogs and Birds-that-eat-cats where Mice are Royalty or some such; doesn't help interaction, but if your goal is simply to go about your business unnoticed, cats are fine too.

[AlchemicalMyst]

The interacting with the "Glamer" as opposed to the "Person" is interesting but for me, all kind of the same. If the glamer were on its own, yeah...
But I think of it like this:
"If a wizard puts a glamer on a red wall to make it look blue and you interact with the wall, lets say to climb it, you should get a save even though you haven't interacted with the glamer specifically."
Say the wizard puts the spell on the wall but you climb the ladder on the wall, or what if the illusion is that the wall has blue polka dots at the top but you can't reach them. Should touching the bottom of the wall grant a save? Technically the wall has a glamer illusion but the glamer is only a small detail.


Interestingly making people only get a save is they interact with the glamer leads to a situation like this one: I played in a really old campaign where we were going through a dungeon of death filled with illusion covered traps. After our third trapped room one of our group screamed "Thats it! Everything is f---ing illusions! I disbelieve the Illusion! Whatever we see I disblieve it!"
And for the rest of that delve everytime we came into a room and the DM finished the description his character pointed at the room (or things inside) and screamed "I disbelieve the Ilusion!" That's a lot of actions spent examining things xD


I would stand with your DM in the context that physical contact would normally warrant a will-save when dealing with illusions like hiding a door behind a vision of a wall, or being chomped on by a Phantasmal Killer. In the case of disguise self however, I would think that the only reason to incur a will-save would be if the physical contact would dis-agree with what the illusion is portraying; you're only using it to alter Visual differences, not physical ones, and the Dark Creature template's only physical alterations that aren't visual is the little bit of text that states that a Dark Creature tends to weigh less because it is part shadowstuff.
That's exactly my take on it as well. In order to be granted that "free" will save you need to have reason to disbelieve basically. Green scaly skin feels smooth? Will save. Black hair feels like hair? No will save.


That said, you can do little visual alterations like this with a Prestidigitation spell, so burning a 1st level spell slot or the cost of a Hat of Disguise seems a bit much. You might look into a permanent Hat of Prestidigitation for a cheaper option to much the same result.
Spell states you can only affect objects or create crude things or effects but even if I could use it for that the disguise bonus is nice if needed.


You could also just stay in cat-form since black cats really aren't all that odd as a generalization unless you're in the land of Dogs and Birds-that-eat-cats where Mice are Royalty or some such; doesn't help interaction, but if your goal is simply to go about your business unnoticed, cats are fine too.
Yeah, problem is if my sneaky thief gets caught before time limit on change is done. Then I have to depend on skill and items. Honestly though not a huge deal considering as long as I'm not in sunlight or daylight spell radius I can Hide in Plain Sight with a +47 at 10th level xD


Well, you are nitpicking. Sure logically, if you use disguise self to change your eye color only, then a pat on the back from someone should not grant them a save. But this is where the nitpicking can go on forever. There is no official ruling on this. Officially they just do it the easy way:interaction is anything and anything can be anything just make it up yourself, next.
No, I'm not being overly critical or criticizing small details, I'm just trying to figure out what people's take on what it means to "interact" with the glamer. My GM's opinion is touching the person at all is considered interacting. And obviously it can't be anything as WoTC clearly stated what it means to interact with an illusion. Problem is there example is with full blown creations which of course sates practically any touching. IMHO touching colored skin doesn't warrant a will save. Obviously an unrealistic color like bright neon pink should probably warrant a will save as anyone is going to scrutinize the person, even if only out of awe.


But the idea is that illusions, as they are not real, have tiny 'give aways' that people can notice...buy making a will save. For example: an illusion would not cast a shadow, so your illusion of a cloak or hat would cast no shadow. An illusion would not interact with light the same way normal matter does, a metal belt buckle won't reflect light.
Which is what studying allows. The Will Save is your Will literally fighting against a magical influence on your mind. It may not cast a shadow but if you fail the save the magic prevents you from realizing it.


But for more physical ones: You cover your hair with a glamor making it pink and someone touches your hair. For that split second as they move your hair, they move your real hair out of the illusionary hair cover and see a slight shimmer as the illusion does a readjustment for unexpected movement. that's your opinion. You believe the illusion is literally a covering. I don't and very few GMs I've played with have ever used that reasoning. Why? Because even the slightest breeze would "break" the illusion with your reasoning.


You could say 'slight' details don't give a save, but I'd say they would need to be so 'slight' that they would not even matter.
That's your opinion.


My World is so much worse then this too....Muuhahahahahaa

It's not against the players, it's just the setting. You make it sound like if NPC's lock their doors that it's 'against' the players. As if the players should get the red carpet rolled out for them in the game or something. And a 'for the players' world makes no sense to me: where the guards would just ignore the fact that magic exists and act like everything is mundane. Guard-''Durr, where did that wizard guy go, he just was gone..oh well lets go get some donuts''. While my guard partols have at least one wiz 1 with a wand of detect invisibility.
No not at all. No locked doors would break the immersion. Players need to be challenged. That doesn't mean they need to be beaten. And when did I ever say that? You're twisting my words as though I said games need to be easy. Easy does not equate to fun...

I never said guards need to be half witted ignorant buggers, but I could never play in a setting in which guards constantly searched the PCs for weapons and magical items. Now royal guards checking party guests, or standing guard at a secure location etc okay.

Anyways beside the point and way off topic.


Ok, about RAW....all we can do is tell you how we do it. To put it simply, there is noting to 'determine'. There is no official ruling on illusions. They Left It All Vague. On Purpose.
There actually IS, as stately earlier, just not referring to partial illusions like Disguise Self. And all I was looking for was how other people rule it. You came in right away telling me how it is exactly and calling me nitpicky and asking "Does that not make sense?" to my questions.

Very rude and hostile unlike the others commenting. :smallmad:

[Feralventas]

What time-limit? I'm pretty sure the transformation is akin to the Lycanthrope ability; looking over the DMC, I still don't see one.

[AlchemicalMyst]

What time-limit? I'm pretty sure the transformation is akin to the Lycanthrope ability; looking over the DMC, I still don't see one.
"A tibbit can transform from a cat back to her
humanoid form as a full-round action. She must wait
1 hour to turn back into a cat after reverting to her
humanoid form."

[Gamer Girl]

Very rude and hostile unlike the others commenting. :smallmad:


Guess I miss the part where you asked that only an offical Wizards Rule Demigod to give you the Absolute Official Word on Stone Tablets.

All we have are the rules, but the handful of things Wizards has put out over the years. There is no Official Answer to your questions, just us gamers with what we think.

And sure, your bias and want Disguise Self to grant your character god like powers. That is ok and very normal...and that is why D&D has DMs, to stop such player shenanigans.

But, oh, well, I tried to help...guess we just play too radically different game styles to relate to each other...

[Gamer Girl]

Very rude and hostile unlike the others commenting. :smallmad:


Guess I miss the part where you asked that only an offical Wizards Rule Demigod to give you the Absolute Official Word on Stone Tablets.

All we have are the rules, but the handful of things Wizards has put out over the years. There is no Official Answer to your questions, just us gamers with what we think.

And sure, your bias and want Disguise Self to grant your character god like powers. That is ok and very normal...and that is why D&D has DMs, to stop such player shenanigans.

But, oh, well, I tried to help...guess we just play too radically different game styles to relate to each other...

[AlchemicalMyst]

Guess I miss the part where you asked that only an offical Wizards Rule Demigod to give you the Absolute Official Word on Stone Tablets.

All we have are the rules, but the handful of things Wizards has put out over the years. There is no Official Answer to your questions, just us gamers with what we think.

And sure, your bias and want Disguise Self to grant your character god like powers. That is ok and very normal...and that is why D&D has DMs, to stop such player shenanigans.

But, oh, well, I tried to help...guess we just play too radically different game styles to relate to each other...

Again with the hostilities. I am very happy with everyone's responses but yours. For the sole reason that you seem to have a stick stuck in a particular orifice in a uncomfortable manner.

How is saying that I don't believe the random man in the crowd who slightly bumps my shoulder or the beggar tapping my foot should be able to make a free, and frankly extremely easy, Will Save to see through an illusion located no where near them me trying to have god like powers?

The first thing you come in saying is:
"Interaction with a glamer with your senses, including touch, get you a will save. So when they touch someone under a disguise self spell, that's interaction.

Why would you think that someone touching a glamor illusion would not get a save? Does that not make sense?" Emphasis mine

Funny...you come in already hostile and go on to add how I'm being nitpicky and stating to me exactly how illusions work, yet now, you yourself say, and I quote, "Sure logically, if you use disguise self to change your eye color only, then a pat on the back from someone should not grant them a save." That was exactly what my question was about from the very beginning! If others would agree with that this was a good and fair interpretation! :smallmad:

Yes I have bias in which I prefer the GM siding with my interpretation, obviously, but I would not be mad if every response was a different one than my own. However, I will get a little irritated when people respond in a needlessly demeaning in tone. I may have just "joined" this community, even though I have been reading for ages, but I've been part of others long enough to overall have zero tolerance for that.

[AlchemicalMyst]

Thanks for the input guys, most of it was very useful.

GM decided to agree with the interpretation of Illusions that, for a glamer, the senses have to conflict to warrant the FREE Will Save. In his words, "I suppose without that reasoning Disguise Self would really only work in a dark empty room with no breeze! Hahaha"

As for the Tibbit questions, he decided to write in his own rules for how the transformation works in 3.5, making it a lot more like a lycanthrope's Alternate Form.

[Mnemnosyne]

You can't interact with a color other than by looking at it, so in order to get the will save for interacting with a disguise self that only changes colors, I would say you need to intentionally use at least a move action to actually study it closely. Only if it changes apparent texture should touching the subject grant an automatic will save (and if the texture is sufficiently different, it might even fall under automatic disbelief in that case).

As for the polymorph...as far as I can tell, yes, you lose your special forms of vision. I don't see anything that says you're restricted to only one color of cat. Tibbit feline transformation is based on polymorph, which is based on alter self, which specifically states that you can choose minor physical qualities like hair color, texture, and skin color, so you should be able to, each time, choose a different appearance for your housecat form.

I don't see anything restricting you from speaking Feline while in cat form, since apparently normal cats with an intelligence of 3+ can do it, unless you were to argue that gaining 3 or more intelligence results in a physical change that the feline transformation doesn't copy.

I also don't see anything specifically mentioning the healing that polymorph normally gives. Since the feline transformation ability is based on polymorph with the noted changes, and lack of regaining HP is not listed among those changes, it defaults to functioning like polymorph and giving a night's rest worth of healing.

Also I see that since I apparently forgot to hit reply when I initially typed this post, you've already come back with a resolution. Ah well, may as well post it anyways.

[AlchemicalMyst]

You can't interact with a color other than by looking at it, so in order to get the will save for interacting with a disguise self that only changes colors, I would say you need to intentionally use at least a move action to actually study it closely. Only if it changes apparent texture should touching the subject grant an automatic will save (and if the texture is sufficiently different, it might even fall under automatic disbelief in that case).

As for the polymorph...as far as I can tell, yes, you lose your special forms of vision. I don't see anything that says you're restricted to only one color of cat. Tibbit feline transformation is based on polymorph, which is based on alter self, which specifically states that you can choose minor physical qualities like hair color, texture, and skin color, so you should be able to, each time, choose a different appearance for your housecat form.

I don't see anything restricting you from speaking Feline while in cat form, since apparently normal cats with an intelligence of 3+ can do it, unless you were to argue that gaining 3 or more intelligence results in a physical change that the feline transformation doesn't copy.

I also don't see anything specifically mentioning the healing that polymorph normally gives. Since the feline transformation ability is based on polymorph with the noted changes, and lack of regaining HP is not listed among those changes, it defaults to functioning like polymorph and giving a night's rest worth of healing.

Also I see that since I apparently forgot to hit reply when I initially typed this post, you've already come back with a resolution. Ah well, may as well post it anyways.

Still welcome. :smallsmile: