PDA

View Full Version : Alignment Examples



North_Ranger
2012-08-12, 05:34 PM
DISCLAIMER: Restarting a thread that got locked due to a touch of politics; if you want, you can find it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252469). Feel free to add your own two cents on the matter as well as examples of characters who you think fit the bill, but steer clear from real-world political or religious figures. Even if you do think Teddy Roosevelt deserves a slot simply for being a badass :smallwink:


I'm currently in the process of planning a Pathfinder campaign for some friends who, for the most part, are tabletop newbies and fantasy virgins. One of the tougher nuts to crack in this respect is giving them reasonable examples of various he alignments. The PF core rule book is a good starting point, but I'm sure a little extra examples wouldn't hurt.

So far I've got this:

Lawful Good ("The Crusader"):
- Richard Lionheart (as seen in popular culture)
- Ned Stark
- Buzz Lightyear
- Austin Powers
- Tevye
- Captain Kirk
- Superman
- King Arthur

Neutral Good ("The Good Guy"):
- Samwise Gamgee
- Roger Rabbit
- Mulan
- John Carter
- Beowulf
- Flash Gordon
- Edward Scissorhands

Chaotic Good ("The Freedom Fighter"):
- Robin Hood
- William Tell
- Doc Brown
- Spartacus


Lawful Neutral ("Traditionalist"):
- Jeeves
- Stannis Baratheon

Neutral ("The Middle Way Man"):
- Sherlock Holmes
- Indiana Jones

Chaotic Neutral ("The Individualist"):
- Tyrion Lannister
- Dr Gregory House
- Jack Sparrow


Lawful Evil ("The Dictator"):
- Sauron
- Darth Vader
- Dracula
- Ming the Merciless

Neutral Evil ("The Mercenary"):
- Joffrey Baratheon
- Dr Evil

Chaotic Evil ("The Crazy"):
- The Joker
- serial killers
- the Drow
- Gregor Clegane, "The Mountain That Rides"
- The Goblin King (from The Labyrinth)

...and that's pretty much it at the time. So, any other people who'd make good poster boys (or babes) for the nine alignments? Real life, popular culture, whatever... everything goes except religious figures, politicians or anything else that is against forum rules.

Riverdance
2012-08-12, 05:43 PM
I challenge anyone to name a figure more chaotic neutral than Jack Sparrow. :smalltongue: He defines it, as Ned Stark does Lawful Good.

Burner28
2012-08-12, 06:24 PM
Who is Ned Stark? And really if anything, many people would say that Superman is the epitome of Lawful Good.

Also, it may be for the better that the OP did not mention Batman in this thread!:smalltongue:

Concerning Neutral Evil, the most popular examples I think could be used as examples are several of the Disney villains.

Wardog
2012-08-12, 06:34 PM
[QUOTE=North_Ranger;13714780]



Neutral Good ("The Good Guy"):
- Samwise Gamgee
- Roger Rabbit
- Flash Gordon

Is Sam NG, or LG? "Obedience to lawful authority" never really became an issue in LotR, so it would have to be judged on things like loyalty, discipline, faithfulness, etc, which Sam had is spades. Ditto for Flash.

Roger Rabbit, or the other hand, was distinctly chaotic, if I remember right. (Although it is many years since I've seen the film).


Neutral ("The Middle Way Man"):
- Indiana Jones

Indy is a hero who puts himself at risk to save help or protect others, and has a tendancy to act impulsively and make things up as he goes along. That sounds like textbook CG to me.

Water_Bear
2012-08-12, 07:13 PM
Awesome list, but I would move Austin Powers, Indiana Jones, Captain James T Kirk, and Roger Rabbit to CG. Also Dracula, at least in the original book, seemed like more of a "smart CE" than LE, but that is a tough distinction.

Now that I've gotten the serious bit out of the way; time for Alignment Chart Spamming!

The Only Useful One
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/023/c/a/alignment_chart_by_4thehorde-d37w8l2.jpg

Batman
http://img.waffleimages.com/a3b3c06d3a4ab4d3965c39d6d12948c548581f66/t/Batlignments.jpg


Anime Batman
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/175/5/f/Lelouch__s_Alignment_Chart_by_AlsoSprachOdin.jpg

Glad0s Personality Cores
http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/halolz-dot-com-portal2-personalitycorealignmentchart.jpg

Hiro Protagonest
2012-08-12, 07:15 PM
Indy is a hero who puts himself at risk to save help or protect others, and has a tendancy to act impulsively and make things up as he goes along. That sounds like textbook CG to me.

You don't have to be good-aligned to want to uncover relics, do what is the pulp action hero's equivalent of a routine job to save a village and stop some crazy dude, and help your side win a war. Neutral is not apathetic.

I just call him blue/red.

Knaight
2012-08-12, 07:19 PM
Lawful Good ("The Crusader"):
- Richard Lionheart (as seen in popular culture)


I'd say he is usually portrayed as Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil in popular culture. Oddly enough, his contemporary and enemy Yusuf Salah ad-Din is usually portrayed as Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil, and which portrayal each sees is relatively unrelated to the other in a given work.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-08-12, 07:28 PM
I'd say he is usually portrayed as Chaotic Good or Lawful Evil in popular culture. Oddly enough, his contemporary and enemy Yusuf Salah ad-Din is usually portrayed as Lawful Good or Chaotic Evil, and which portrayal each sees is relatively unrelated to the other in a given work.

Richard is likely not lawful good. He was impatient and warlike. He was sort of a less extreme version of Alexander the Great. I think he's true neutral or something.

Knaight
2012-08-12, 07:36 PM
Richard is likely not lawful good. He was impatient and warlike. He was sort of a less extreme version of Alexander the Great. I think he's true neutral or something.

He tends to get white washed in media portrayals.

Riverdance
2012-08-12, 07:45 PM
Awesome list, but I would move Austin Powers, Indiana Jones, Captain James T Kirk, and Roger Rabbit to CG. Also Dracula, at least in the original book, seemed like more of a "smart CE" than LE, but that is a tough distinction.

Now that I've gotten the serious bit out of the way; time for Alignment Chart Spamming!

The Only Useful One
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/023/c/a/alignment_chart_by_4thehorde-d37w8l2.jpg


That's a really good one. (Although I don't watch enough star trek to recognize the LN guy)

Tragic_Comedian
2012-08-12, 08:01 PM
I've tried to include two different examples where I can think of them just to show how different two characters with the same alignment can be.

Lawful Good: Superman, Batman
Neutral Good: Sora from Kingdom Hearts,
Chaotic Good: Robin Hood, Harry Potter

Lawful Neutral: Death from Discworld (borderline True Neutral, though...),
True Neutral: Hades, Mundungus Fletcher
Chaotic Neutral: Jack Sparrow, V from V for Vendetta (the graphic novel)

Lawful Evil: Dolores Umbridge
Neutral Evil: Jafar, Maleficent
Chaotic Evil: The Joker, Morgoth, maybe some of Lovecraft's beasties.

Incom
2012-08-12, 08:04 PM
What about the alignment chart demotivator demotivator? I saw it somewhere on this site and it might be actually useful in showing how alignments view each other.

Also, Kamina from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann for CG. If you aren't familiar with the show (it's a gold mine of internet memes and quotes),

humans live underground and Kamina, being a rebellious teenager, insists on the existence of a surface, and he eventually leads a revolt against the LE (arguably LN) forces that are keeping them underground.

Tragic_Comedian
2012-08-12, 08:08 PM
That's a really good one. (Although I don't watch enough star trek to recognize the LN guy)
It's Captain Picard. You could make a case for him being Lawful Good, just not that friendly, but LN suits him just as well.

Templarkommando
2012-08-12, 08:49 PM
Let me toss my two cents in...

Lawful Good: Honor Harrington (by David Weber), Kate Beckett, Lieutenant Columbo, King Arthur,

Neutral Good: Michael Weston (Burn Notice), The Kung Fu Panda, The A-Team,

Chaotic Good: Han Solo, Malcolm Reynolds

Lawful Neutral: James Bond, Jack Bauer

True Neutral: A Martial Artist who places his combat prowess above everything else... can't think of any specifics just now... Maybe the main character from Master Killer... it's an old Kung Fu movie.

Chaotic Neutral: Jayne Cobb

Lawful Evil: Judge Claude Frollo (Hunchback of Notre Dame... the Disney version at least, I'm not well studied on the original). Jafar from Aladdin.

Neutral Evil: Maleficent

Chaotic Evil: Saffron and The Reavers from Firefly.. though on distinctly different levels.

That's all for now.

navar100
2012-08-12, 09:48 PM
Captain Kirk is not Lawful Good. He almost always violates the Prime Directive to bring about what he thinks is the best results and has disobeyed orders when it comes to his friends. He is not Chaotic Good either because other times he will follow protocol and cares about the welfare of society as well as the individual. He is Neutral Good. Spock is Lawful Good. Logic is his code for the betterment of everyone. Dr. McCoy is Chaotic Good. Rules are always getting in the way for him to do what he thinks is right. He cares nothing about regulations when someone's life is in danger.

Hiro Protagonest
2012-08-12, 10:06 PM
Captain Kirk is not Lawful Good. He almost always violates the Prime Directive to bring about what he thinks is the best results and has disobeyed orders when it comes to his friends. He is not Chaotic Good either because other times he will follow protocol and cares about the welfare of society as well as the individual. He is Neutral Good. Spock is Lawful Good. Logic is his code for the betterment of everyone. Dr. McCoy is Chaotic Good. Rules are always getting in the way for him to do what he thinks is right. He cares nothing about regulations when someone's life is in danger.

Spock is blue (like his shirt!).

Arranis Thelmos
2012-08-12, 10:09 PM
Awesome list, but I would move Austin Powers, Indiana Jones, Captain James T Kirk, and Roger Rabbit to CG. Also Dracula, at least in the original book, seemed like more of a "smart CE" than LE, but that is a tough distinction.

Now that I've gotten the serious bit out of the way; time for Alignment Chart Spamming!

The Only Useful One
http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2011/023/c/a/alignment_chart_by_4thehorde-d37w8l2.jpg

Batman
http://img.waffleimages.com/a3b3c06d3a4ab4d3965c39d6d12948c548581f66/t/Batlignments.jpg


Anime Batman
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/175/5/f/Lelouch__s_Alignment_Chart_by_AlsoSprachOdin.jpg

Glad0s Personality Cores
http://www.halolz.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/halolz-dot-com-portal2-personalitycorealignmentchart.jpg

What's the anime you called 'anime batman'?

Knaight
2012-08-12, 10:17 PM
What's the anime you called 'anime batman'?

That would be Code Geass, though I'd contest the characterization. Specifically, that is the character Lelouche Lamparouge, who is a complex character that thus defies the alignment system.

Ninjadeadbeard
2012-08-12, 10:33 PM
How is Tevye Lawful Good? Certainly he's this at the start of the play/movie, but he comes to be the sort of person that breaks the usual rules in the case of his daughters, wanting their happiness over tradition. The third daughter may have been a relapse into his old alignment, but he reconciles by the end. Tevye is most certainly Neutral Good.

Silus
2012-08-12, 10:54 PM
I'd like to add Sam Vimes from the Discworld series to the list of Lawful Neutral.

Seriously, aside from maybe Judge Dredd, Vimes is the poster boy for LN.

Hallavast
2012-08-12, 11:05 PM
I object to Stannis Baratheon being an exemplar of LN. Sure he's lawful to a fault, but he does some pretty evil **** to advance his claim to the throne. Like have his little brother murdered with blood magic, sacrifices people to some foreign god, is unfaithful to his wife, sent thousands of soldiers to their deaths, threatened to kill a baby, and probably kicked a few puppies off screen. All to increase his own power and win a crown he's obsessed with. That screams evil to me.

--------

I don't know if Mal Reynolds is Good or Neutral, but he certainly isn't neutral on the law/chaos axis. He's either extremely lawful or extremely chaotic. Nowhere near the center.

Lawful Mal:
He strives to keep his word to keep his reputation good as a smuggler/trader. He has his own personal code that makes him judge people on principle rather than looking at their individual circumstances. He also runs his ship with an iron fist. He tends to micromanage his crew beyond the role of employer. He's created a surrogate family aboard Serenity, and he constantly reminds everyone that he's "Daddy".

Chaotic Mal:
He's a smuggler and a thief with no regard for the law. He's a stark individualist who "just wants to go his own way". He once fought a losing war against imperial power. He neither trusts nor respects any authority other than his own, seeing governments as illegitimate. He points guns at and punches people who've paid him for safe passage. He has a violent temper. He makes remarks about being polite to passengers until they leave civilized space.

CoffeeIncluded
2012-08-12, 11:21 PM
Eh, I see Vimes as being more Lawful Good than Lawful Neutral. Also from the series, the Auditors are Lawful Evil while Teatime is Chaotic Evil.

NikitaDarkstar
2012-08-12, 11:34 PM
I'd argue that the A-Team sure as heck aren't Neutral Good, try Chaotic Good. To many explosions for Neutral anything.

Lawful Good:
Twilight Sparkle (My little Pony)
AppleJack (My little Pony)
The Good Conscience (Black and white 1+2)

Neutral Good:
Garrus Vakarian (Mass Effect)
Flutter Shy (My little pony)

Chaotic Good:
MacGyver
Rainbow Dash (My little pony)

Lawful Neutral:
EDI (Mass Effect 2+3)

True Neutral:
Skully (X-files)
Morrigan (Dragon Age: Origins)
Rarity (My little Pony)

Chaotic Neutral:
Mulder (X-files)
The Doctor (Doctor Who... and no, I wouldn't put him as Good.. he's done some pretty bad stuff just because he lost his temper, so neutral, leaning towards good.)
Pinkie Pie (My little Pony)

Lawful Evil:
Cybermen (Doctor Who)

Neutral Evil:
Raistlin Majere (Dragonlance)
Daleks (Doctor Who)

Chaotic Evil:
Bishop (Neverwinter Nights 2)
The Master (Doctor Who)
The Evil Conscience (Black and white 1+2)

Gettles
2012-08-12, 11:44 PM
Here is who I think for the Alignments I try to use characters who are fairly well known unless I REALLY feel like they are a great example of the alignment

LG: Superman, Captain America, Roy Mustang, Phoenix Wright,

NG: Vivi, Vash the Stampede, Aang,

CG: Batman, Wolverine, Yuri Lowell, Garrus Vakarian, John Maclane

LN: Any non-villainous version Death usually falls here, Nick Fury, Nicholas Angel

TN: The Truth from Full Metal Alchemist, the President of the Neutral Planet(Its hard to find a lot of good examples of this in my mind)

CN: Jack Sparrow, Faye Valentine

LE: Lex Luthor, Darth Vader, Dr. Doom,

NE: Pyramid Head, Revolver Ocelot, Mr. Burns

CG: The Joker, Nightmare from Soul Calibur, Hazama

Ashtagon
2012-08-12, 11:50 PM
Indy is a hero who puts himself at risk to save help or protect others, and has a tendancy to act impulsively and make things up as he goes along. That sounds like textbook CG to me.

Sounds right to me.


Awesome list, but I would move Austin Powers, Indiana Jones, Captain James T Kirk, and Roger Rabbit to CG. Also Dracula, at least in the original book, seemed like more of a "smart CE" than LE, but that is a tough distinction.

Austin Powers? He's not chaotic. He works for a government as an elite spy. You don't get any kind of responsibility at that level by being chaotic. He's in a large organisation in an elite position of responsibility, while working for the good of the wider nation-state rather than himself. Sounds lawful to me. His sex appeal stuff just means he's funky, not chaotic.

Ditto for Kirk. He's a starship captain in a quasi-military organisation. He obeys orders when sent on dangerous missions for the benefit of the greater good, he pays attention to the prime directive. Those times where he has disobeyed direct orders have been more due to the fact that he has had superior information on the tactical situation rather than because he was a wilful s.o.b doing his own thing.

(btw, I think we should drop both Richard the Lionheart and Saladin from discussion)


How is Tevye Lawful Good? Certainly he's this at the start of the play/movie, but...

Well, I meant Tevye at the start of the film. By the end, I'd agree he has become neutral good.

Sith_Happens
2012-08-12, 11:59 PM
Anime Batman
http://th05.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2010/175/5/f/Lelouch__s_Alignment_Chart_by_AlsoSprachOdin.jpg

+1

Personally, though, I'd peg Lelouch as Lawful Evil overall.

CoffeeIncluded
2012-08-13, 12:33 AM
Off the top of my head, the two greatest examples for Chaotic Evil are the Joker and Kefka (who is basically the video game equivalent of the Joker).

Kitten Champion
2012-08-13, 01:37 AM
When I think of alignment paradigms, I think:

LG: Kuchiki Byakuya (Bleach), Captain Carrot (Discworld), Galad Damodred (Wheel of Time)

NG: Kurosaki Ichigo (Bleach), , Harry Potter, Batman (Depending on the author)

CG: Harry Dresden (Dresden Files), Han Solo (Star Wars), Mat Cauthon (Wheel of Time)

LN: "L" (Death Note), Suzaku Kururugi (Code Geass), Lord Vetinari (Discworld),

TN: Kino (Kino's Journey), Nagato Yuki (Melancholy of Suzumiya Haruhi), Death (Discworld)

CN: Kenpachi Zaraki (Bleach), The Incredible Hulk (Marvel), Bugs Bunny

LE: Light Yagami (Death Note), Haman Kahn (Gundam), Professor Moriarty (Sherlock Holmes)

NE: Aizen Sosuke (Bleach), Voldemort (Harry Potter), Sephiroth (Final Fantasy VII)

CE: Angelus (Buffy, Angel) , Ali Al-Saachez (Gundam 00), Alex (Clockwork Orange)

Burner28
2012-08-13, 05:23 AM
I knew Batman was going to be used as examples of Lawful/Neutral/Chaotic Good.:smalltongue:


Off the top of my head, the two greatest examples for Chaotic Evil are the Joker and Kefka (who is basically the video game equivalent of the Joker).

I like your examples.



Lawful Neutral: James Bond, Jack Bauer



Doesn't he torture people?

hamishspence
2012-08-13, 06:32 AM
He does- however different people have different standards for how much Evil acts are needed to push a person to Evil alignment.

A "professional torturer" might be considered more Evil than someone who only does so occasionally, "for the greater good".

Raimun
2012-08-13, 08:07 AM
Lawful Good: Mufasa

Neutral Good: Spider-Man

Chaotic Good: Amélie

Lawful Neutral: Robocop

True Neutral: Donald Duck (average guy), The Terminator (construct), Aliens (animals), Namor (balances to this), Agent Sands (actively seeks balance)

Chaotic Neutral: Snake Plissken

Lawful Evil: The Demon Sisters (Rrrurus!)

Neutral Evil: Emperor Palpatine

Chaotic Evil: Red Skull (if you get a honest morality lecture from the Joker, you're doing something wrong)

Also, kind of like Batman, you could argue that The Punisher could have any of the six non-Good Alignments.

North_Ranger
2012-08-13, 08:54 AM
I object to Stannis Baratheon being an exemplar of LN. Sure he's lawful to a fault, but he does some pretty evil **** to advance his claim to the throne. Like have his little brother murdered with blood magic, sacrifices people to some foreign god, is unfaithful to his wife, sent thousands of soldiers to their deaths, threatened to kill a baby, and probably kicked a few puppies off screen. All to increase his own power and win a crown he's obsessed with. That screams evil to me.


Granted, I'm only as far as the Red Wedding when doing my Song of Ice and Fire reading, but so far Stannis has come off as nothing but Lawful Neutral, at least how he himself argues his position. It's not that he wants the Iron Throne, it's not that he likes doing the things he has done in order to nudge himself closer to it - but to be king is his duty. It's not even a right for him, but a duty he must uphold against traitors, would-be monarchs and that little pisspot, Joffrey. He has no personal stake on the matter, no strong ambition, no greater agenda - it is simply his duty.

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-13, 09:09 AM
Here's how i see them in their simplest terms
Law: Community Focused
Chaos: Individual focused
Good: Willing to sacrifice self for others
Evil: Willing to sacrifice others for self

With that in mind, here are my shining examples of each and each will have an example of someone who is commonly said to be it but i think is not actually.

Lawful Good: King Arthur. (Arthurian Mythos) Absolutely willing to sacrifice himself, and cares for his community at large rather than any individual, be it himself, his best knight or his wife. Superman on the other hand is NOT LG, since he really isn't willing to sacrifice the lives of his villains for the community, and he gives special precedence to Lois and Jimmy which isn't lawful behaviour.

Neutral Good: Buffy (Buffy the Vampire Slayer). Willing to sacrifice herself, and did so. Lots. Also swung back and forth between choosing individuals over groups and vice versa. Broke loads of rules, but established her own in place. Luke Skywalker (Star Wars: Return of the Jedi) on the other hand is LG. Everything about being a Jedi is to be Lawful. They have a code they strictly adhere to, a hierarchy the putting of the good of the galaxy before things like love. Totally LG, but only in the last movie.

Chaotic Good: Simon Tam (Firefly). Willing to sacrifice his own life because his sister was being hurt. Violated every possible form of authority. Mal (Also Firefly) isn't true CG cos, like Buffy he enforces his own rules. Simon doesn't he just does what he thinks best.

Lawful Neutral: Ezio Auditore (Assassins Creed II). Unlike Altair who is good, Ezio just follows the Creed and fights his opponents. He differs from the Templars in many ways but lacks the respect for life. He has a belief in freedom that he fights for but does it in such an ordered and ordering way. Not only is he guided by discipline and rules but he makes everyone around more disciplined by association. I can't actually think of anyone who is commonly thought to be LN but isn't

Neutral Neutral: The Bride (Kill Bill). Willing to die, but only in pursuit of a selfish goal. Willing to kill but only to either save her life, or punish very evil people. Respects family...to a point. Fights with honour...to a point. Just doesn't care enough about anything to qualify as anything but Neutral. Treebeard (Lord of the Rings: Two Towers) is actually NG, but with an alien viewpoint, in the books at least. Willing to stand against evil at the cost of his whole race? thats pretty hardcore NG

True Neutral: Death (Supernatural). He wants the balance to be kept. Make him do anything but that, things end badly. All his servants want to keep the balance. He has a VERY good reason for this. He will eventually kill God but helped prevent the rise of a new one that had gone mad with power. Oh yeah this guy is True Neutral. Dream (The Sandman) on the other hand is Lawful Neutral. Commits suicide rather than change.

Chaotic Neutral: John Constantine (Hellblazer). John is willing to sacrifice anyone and anything so that Gods and Demons stay OUT of humanities way. He has turned his life into a wreck and gone to hell and back again and again to save lives but he has also sacrificed people at the drop of a hat. And he does it for the ideal of humanity. So humans can just live as themselves. Not in peace or in war but just without supernatural interference. He is the most perfectly Chaotic Neutral character. Yes even more than Jack Sparrow (Pirates of the Caribbean ). Jack Sparrow is CG. He believes in individuality and freedom and is willing to fight and die for it. He just prefers not to.

Lawful Evil: Dexter (Dexter). This is a guy who follows the laws laid down by his father, only kills those the law cannot prosecute and yet has huge anger issues and is a serial killer. All of his 'good' actions are motivated by his love for family or his pride. Actually now that I think about it he's like Tarquin. Darth Vader (Star Wars Original Trilogy) on the other hand is actually CE. Totally willing to overthrow the Emperor himself, just lacks the strength. That kind of infighting is classic CE

Neutral Evil: Thief (8 Bit Theater) Racist, selfish, mildly sadistic who abuses the law in the form of ultra super small print in contracts but finds Black Mage's excessive psychopathy disturbing. Also stole more things than actually exist from bad guys and orphans alike. There are a few things that act NE but are actually NN like the Xenomorph (Alien), Terminator (Terminator) and Jason Voorhes (Friday the 13th) due to the lack of ability to make moral choices.

Chaotic Evil: The Joker. But thats too easy. So Iago (Othello). Iago is perfect CE cos he comes up with so many bullcrap reasons why he's doing what he's doing to poor Othello but really he's just doing for the lulz. Hes not NE cos he's not doing it for pure selfishness since he doesnt gain that much from it, he just kinda does it. Perfect CE. However Angelus (Buffy the Vampire Slayer) is in fact NE. He's a sadist but is purely concerned with his own survival, profit and pleasure in that order. CE people don't have an order

Well thats my list. Obviously its only opinion. Even when I say something is a fact its just a turn of phrase.

Man on Fire
2012-08-13, 09:37 AM
Chaotic Good:
* Asura from Asura's Wrath.


The wold has no need for the gods that only take. For the Gods of Death.


I will never pray to anybody! I will never be prayed to! But most of all...I won't forgive you for making my daughter cry!

Asura is this big time. He is rebelling against the gods, but actually cares about moralts those gods treat like a dirt, as opposed to people like Kratos, who care only about themselves. Asura fights with order of the world he sees, refuses to acknowledge authority he sees as tyranical and his option to deal with problems is to punch them in the face.

* Spider Jerusalem from Transmetropolitan


Journalism is just a gun. It's only got one bullet in it, but if you aim right, that's all you need. Aim it right, and you can blow a kneecap off the world.

Spider is an amoral jerk, bulyl who beats people and does whatever he wants. But hes also idealist, good guy at heart, who rebels against the unjust world. He isn't above shooting the president with a gun making him **** himself, or beating a man with Chair Leg Of Truth. He will do everything he needs to undercover the truth, the only thing he really belives in. And he swears a lot.

Lawful Neutral:
* Judge Dredd


I AM THE LAW!

Dredd is poster boy of LN, he cares only that people will respect and follow the law he executes, doesn't want or need to have privileges and don't give a damn about why people commit the crimes. He is strict and rough, but he's fair.

True Neutral:

Chaotic Neutral:

* Lina Inverse (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QdtEXexKns)

Lina is perfect example - she isn't either evil psychopath, nor brave and rightful hero, she doesn't care about cosmic balance of forces and clearly isn't lawful. She is a free spirit who does whatever she wants, she wants more power and treasures, like usual D&D adventurer.

* Thorkel The Tall from Vinland Saga

This guy had betrayed his own people and joined the enemy side. Why? Because enemy side was weak and fighting with them was boring, while his side is strong and can give him challenging opponents. He's also a pretty fun to be around, nice guy and father for his men, who follows his own path an belives in his own ideals. Cannto be called either evil or good, but Chaotic? Sure he is.

Lawful Evil:

* Doctor Doom:


The Law Of Latveria is Doom


I'm standing on Latverian soil! Here my word is the law, alien! Have you not sworn to uphold the laws of men?!

Doom is a man who represents specific kind of lawful evil, one a bit closer to neutral evil than lawful neutral, one that belives that he himself is the only one who can bring the true order. Doom i all about control and rule, but also about showing his superirority, about proving that he is the greatest and people should follow him. His word is the law but, unlike Dredd, he himself stands above the law, he can do whatever he wants, because he is superior being, others exist to be controlled by him.

* Lady of Charm from Black Company

Lady is a tyrant, merciless sorcerres who conquers all kingdoms in her grasp, at first sing your typical stand-in for Sauron. But she's much more lawful than him. Common people don't live any worse than anywhere else, and in some ways even better - it's said that in her empire every street is protected so tightly that a lone woman can safely travel at night. She has build her empire to be complete opposite of the one created thouands of years ago by her crazy husband, Dominator. She also doesn't take political intrigues very well and doesn't like to be manipulated, which in Dreams Of Steel leads to


situation after leaders of various religions controllign the city she is defending tried to manipulate her or push her to do what they want. She gathered all those people in one place and mercilessly murdered them all.


Neutral Evil:

* Griffith from Berserk:


All I did was not betraying dream

Okay, this one requires spoilers:

This guy is all about realizing his dream of one day having his own kingdom. He is self centered and ruthless, but extremely charismatic and clever, which draws people to him. He however, has no problems sacrificing his people for his goal and doesn't really consider them equal. The only exception is Guts, in who Griffith quickly becomes fascinated and sees as a man capable of becoming his true friend, the onle equal to him. But when Guts decides to do what, according to Griffith himself, would be necessary for it, following his own dream, and wants to leave, Griffith cannot take it. He cannot belive somebody might have just leave him and sees it as a sign of weakness. Because of it he does somethign very stupid to prove o himself his own superiority, for which he pays terrible price and all he worked for falls apart. His spirit completely destroyed, Griffith tries to climb to a new dream, of living peacefully with Casca, but once he realizes that's impossible, because she had fallen in love with Guts and isn't his loyal puppet anymore, he snaps. Griffith makes a pact with dark forces known as Godhand and sacrifices all his people to be reborn as demonic Femto. And first thing he does is to brutally rape Casca in front of Guts, jsut to spite him. When they meet again several years later, Guts furiously asks why he did it. Griffith just says that his fascination of Guts was making him forget his dream, so he had removed it.


Generally, there is only one person Griffith cares about, and that's Griffith himself.

Chaotic Evil:

* Ladd Russo

Thank you! **** you! A villain has arrived!


I just know you are all my newest enemies... and you have really nice guns. You people are all the same. You think you're so special! "Oh yeah, with all of our wonderful guns on this pathetic train, there's no way anyone can stop us! We are invincible and unbeatable! We are so strong with all of our men and our guns!" [laughs] You are my absolute favorite people to kill! You are so beautifully amazed when you die! Especially when I squish your brains, between my fingers, LIKE A FREAKING SAUSAGE!

This guy knows he's a bad guy, he knows he is evil, and he enjoys it. He takes pleasure in pointless murder and especially in killing people who don't belive they will die. Sure, he has some standards (he loves his girlfriend, through she's as crazy as him) but overall he is still a complete psychopath with no goal other than kill and have fun.

* Major from Hellsing:

Our purpose is total absence of purpose


You should be aware, fräulein, that there are some people in this world, some irredemable louts, for whom the means do not require an end. I speak of course of myself.


"My friends, it has often been said that I like war. Friends, I like war. No, friends, I love war! I love holocausts. I love blitzkriegs. I love defensive lines. I love sieges, charges, I love mop-up operations, and retreats.

Wars across prairies, in streets, in trenches, in grasslands, in frozen tundras, through deserts, on the sea, in the air, I love every act of war that can occur upon this earth. I love blasting the enemy to smithereens with artillery salvos that thunder across the lines of battle.

My heart leaps with joy whenever a soldier is tossed high into the air and cut to pieces by well placed sniper rounds, and there is nothing like a tank operator using a Tiger 88 to destroy enemy tanks. And the feeling that comes when a soldier runs screaming from his blazing tank only to be mowed down by heavy machine gun fire, is such an exquisite feeling. Like when ranks of infantry brandish their bayonets rushing into the enemy line. It moves me deep within my heart to watch a fresh recruit stabbing over and over into the bloated chest of a long-dead enemy. The sight of deserters being strung up from a street lamp is an irresistible pleasure. And there is nothing more arousing, than the sounds made by prisoners of war dropping like flies, screaming in agony as they're mowed down by ear piercing schmeissers!
When a band of pitiful resistance fighters makes their final stands with nothing but small arms, only to have their city smashed to atoms block by block by 4.8 ton bombshells, I'm in ecstasy.

I love it when my forces are ravaged by a Russian armored division. It's so sad to see towns and villages that were supposed to be defended at all costs, being laid to waste, their women and children being raped, and killed. I love to be squashed under the heel of the British and American war machines. The humiliation, as my men crawl around like vermin, ducking the jagdbombers flying overhead.

Gentlemen, all I ask for is war. A war so grand as to make Hell itself tremble. Gentlemen, I ask you as fellow brothers in arms, what is it you really want? Do you wish for further war as I do? Do you wish for a merciless, bloody war? A war whose fury is built with iron, and lightning, and fire? Do you ask for war to sweep in like a tempest, leaving not even ravens to scavenge from this Earth?!"

Millennium Soldiers: "Krieg! Krieg! Krieg! Krieg, krieg, krieg!"

Major: Very well. Then krieg is what you shall have. We are a clenched fist, ready to strike down all who oppose us with our might. But, after enduring over half a century wallowing in the darkness, for us, a simple, "ordinary" war will no longer be sufficient. We need a massive war! A war beyond any other that man's history has ever known! We are but a single battalion, the remnants of a defeated army numbering less than a thousand strong. However, I believe that each of you old warriors is worth a thousand of their sickly soft children! We represent a force that could easily defeat an army of a million and one men!

It is time for them to awake, the ones who sent us screaming into oblivion, and who now lie sleeping. Let's drag them out of bed by the hair, and remind them of what we are! We will remind them of what it feels like to live in fear. We will remind them of the sound our jackboots make against their throats. We will remind them, that there are more things between Heaven and Hell than are dreamt of in their philosophy. Our kampfgruppe of one thousand vampires is going to burn this world down to ash. Yes, my friends! Soon, Europe's charred remains will illuminate the night sky!

I have brought you all back just as I promised I would. Back to our favorite battlefield. Back to our beloved war!

Millennium Soldiers: Major! Sturmbannführer! Battalion commander! Major! Sturmbannführer! Battalion commander!

Major: At last, the sea lion has crossed the ocean and is heading up the hill! Attention soldiers of the Millennium battalion, this is a message from your commander!

Friends, let's bring them Hell."


Another maniac who wants to just kill and murder. This guy was so obsessed with waging war than Neo-nazis he worked with deemed him insane. If Ladd is a case of likeable CE, who has some standards, then Major is CE at it's worst - he wants nothing but....well, you have read the speech, he explained his motives there very well.




Neutral Good: Spider-Man

Lost the right to be anything but Neutral Evil after One More Day.


True Neutral: Donald Duck (average guy)

His personality varies on story-by-story basis, I would say he can fill entire chart.


Chaotic Evil: Red Skull (if you get a honest morality lecture from the Joker, you're doing something wrong)

But the entire problem Joker had was that Skull is a Nazi, and Nazis weren't Chaotic Evil but Lawful Evil. In fact, if you remember what they did with mentally insane, it's pretty clear why Joker wanted to kick Skull's butt.


Also, kind of like Batman, you could argue that The Punisher could have any of the six non-Good Alignments.

You could make a point about him being Chaotic Good or Neutral Good pretty easily. Probably not lawful Good through.

Raimun
2012-08-13, 10:48 AM
Lost the right to be anything but Neutral Evil after One More Day.


I think this is the extreme example of "depending on the writer".



His personality varies on story-by-story basis, I would say he can fill entire chart.


Hmm, perhaps he's actually more like Namor? It's actually pretty hard to come up with a True Neutral-average joe from fiction. Most stories are not about them.



But the entire problem Joker had was that Skull is a Nazi, and Nazis weren't Chaotic Evil but Lawful Evil. In fact, if you remember what they did with mentally insane, it's pretty clear why Joker wanted to kick Skull's butt.


Ah, but you don't have to share the alignment of the society you live in.



Heck, I'm not even Lawful!


Skull is the mastermind type of CE. Those are rare even in fiction.



You could make a point about him being Chaotic Good or Neutral Good pretty easily. Probably not lawful Good through.

I don't know, Punisher dedicates his life to killing people. They are Evil but still...

Hiro Protagonest
2012-08-13, 11:16 AM
Chaotic Good:
* Asura from Asura's Wrath.

Asura is Red. Only Red.

Wardog
2012-08-13, 11:38 AM
Darth Vader (Star Wars Original Trilogy) on the other hand is actually CE. Totally willing to overthrow the Emperor himself, just lacks the strength. That kind of infighting is classic CE


I would consider Vader (and the leadership of the Rebel Alliance) to be Lawful. They want to overtheow the government, but only to replace it with a better government. (And Varder doesn't even want to overthrow the system, just replace the man at the top).

A Chaotic character would (IMO) be one that (like V or Mal Reynolds) opposed the government because (thinking big) they object to the idea of government, or (thinking small) they want to do their own thing and don't like The Man trying to stop them.


(Although really, the official definition of Law/Chaos is such a hotchpotch of different and barely-related concepts that loads of characters could be put on either end of the scale (or complete opposites on the same end) depending on which part you focus on. Honest, trustworthy, and loyal? That makes you Lawful. Devious, scheming manipulator? So are you!)

Water_Bear
2012-08-13, 12:42 PM
(Although really, the official definition of Law/Chaos is such a hotchpotch of different and barely-related concepts that loads of characters could be put on either end of the scale (or complete opposites on the same end) depending on which part you focus on. Honest, trustworthy, and loyal? That makes you Lawful. Devious, scheming manipulator? So are you!)

This is why I think the whole "Batman is every alignment" thing is actually a useful perspective.

Everyone has their own slightly different ideas about what Good and Evil are, even though these ideas are more-or-less already defined in our society. Law and Chaos aren't really concepts we (as a society) spend a lot of time thinking about and so our concept is even murkier.

The most important thing to remember about the D&D Alignments in my opinion is to keep an open mind.

OOC, you have to be flexible enough to see where the DM and other players are coming from. If your DM throws a tribe of CN Goblins at you, don't get upset if they aren't Evil. If another PC acts like a freedom-loving rebel but feels their personal code makes them LG, don't start a fight over it.

IC, there is no perfect method to determine someone's alignment. Bluff and Disguise mean you can't rely on someone's behavior, simple magic like Undetectable Alignment and Misdirection can mess with Divination spells, as can some classes (i.e. Spymaster) and Feats (i.e. Mask of Gentility). Even Fiends have a slim chance of redemption, and not every Celestial is what they seem.

Templarkommando
2012-08-13, 01:29 PM
I'd argue that the A-Team sure as heck aren't Neutral Good, try Chaotic Good. To many explosions for Neutral anything.




Meh... I can see the merit in that sentiment, and it may be that one or two of the members of the team are CG. I still think that they lean generally toward neutral good and here is why:

The A-Team are basically selfless. They are far more concerned with doing good than they are with advancing themselves monetarily. This is why they so frequently manage to break even on their jobs rather than turning a profit. That's not to say that they are opposed to turning a profit, only that they don't go out of their way to milk every cent out of their patrons.

Furthermore, while the A-Team does have frequent run-ins with military police they also side with local law enforcement agencies as often as not against criminal entities - and they are willing to side with oppressed people against corrupt officials if necessary. This seems to be definitive neutral good behavior given that p.105 of the PHB states: "He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them."

Also, I'm not sure that the use of explosives constitutes evidence of one alignment or another.

navar100
2012-08-13, 05:44 PM
Doctor Who is Chaotic Good.

Harry Potter: NG
Hermionie Granger: LG
Ron Weasely: CG
Fred and George Weasely: CN
Albus Dumbledore: NG
Minerva McGonagall: LG
Severus Snape: LE (A nice example of an evil character on the Good side.)
Vernon Dursely: LE
Petunia Dursely: LE
Dudley Dursely: NE
Voldemort: CE
Delores Umbridge: LE
Cornelius Fudge: LN
Percy Weasley: LN
Arthur Weasely: CG
Molly Weasely: NG
Oliver Wood: N
Bellatrix Lestrange: CE
Lucius Malfoy: LE
Draco Malfoy: NE
Sirius Black: CG
Peter Pettigrew: CE

NikitaDarkstar
2012-08-13, 06:24 PM
Meh... I can see the merit in that sentiment, and it may be that one or two of the members of the team are CG. I still think that they lean generally toward neutral good and here is why:

The A-Team are basically selfless. They are far more concerned with doing good than they are with advancing themselves monetarily. This is why they so frequently manage to break even on their jobs rather than turning a profit. That's not to say that they are opposed to turning a profit, only that they don't go out of their way to milk every cent out of their patrons.

Furthermore, while the A-Team does have frequent run-ins with military police they also side with local law enforcement agencies as often as not against criminal entities - and they are willing to side with oppressed people against corrupt officials if necessary. This seems to be definitive neutral good behavior given that p.105 of the PHB states: "He is devoted to helping others. He works with kings and magistrates but does not feel beholden to them."

Also, I'm not sure that the use of explosives constitutes evidence of one alignment or another.

The comment about the explosives was a joke, I thought that would be fairly obvious. And I still can't quite see them as Neutral Good, but I admit that it's been a while since I watched the show and I used to be quite the Murdoc fan, so there's a chance that might be messing with my memory, making me consider them more Chaotic than the team on the whole actually were.


@Navar100
I'm sorry, but if the Doctor was a purely Good character how come several entire races and organizations considers him dangerous and an enemy? Races and organizations who generally are not disruptive or "trying to conquer the universe"? Neutral with Good tendencies for certain (And certainly Good from humanities point of view) but I wouldn't go as far as pin him down as Good. (Granted depending on incarnation it can vary a little, but on the whole, from 1st through 11th, I'd say Neutral.)

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-08-13, 06:39 PM
I'm just wondering why Gregor Clegane(The Mountain That Rides) is labeled CE, he should be LE or NE. He follows orders and he is loyal to house Lannister.

The Boz
2012-08-13, 06:45 PM
I'm just wondering why Gregor Clegane(The Mountain That Rides) is labeled CE, he should be LE or NE. He follows orders and he is loyal to house Lannister.

Sandor's face, that's why.

Water_Bear
2012-08-13, 06:48 PM
@Navar100
I'm sorry, but if the Doctor was a purely Good character how come several entire races and organizations considers him dangerous and an enemy? Races and organizations who generally are not disruptive or "trying to conquer the universe"? Neutral with Good tendencies for certain (And certainly Good from humanities point of view) but I wouldn't go as far as pin him down as Good. (Granted depending on incarnation it can vary a little, but on the whole, from 1st through 11th, I'd say Neutral.)

IDK, it seems like a lot of the "Doctor is hated and feared" is related to people being afraid of his raw power, or the destruction caused by the Time War.

For the first, he's a powerful guy; it's not his fault people tend not to like there being more powerful entities running around unchecked. For the second, you can't blame the guy from causing (and ending) a massive destructive war to prevent the Daleks from exterminating every creature which would ever have lived.

Knaight
2012-08-13, 06:55 PM
Sandor's face, that's why.

That was a deliberate act of violence, performed knowing that there would be no consequences, to make a particular point. It's a lawful action, and the only reason that law isn't the thing it clearly denotes is that it was one of the most willfully evil actions in the entire series.

I'd consider his predilection for being controlled by his emotions (particularly anger) a better sign of being chaotic, but an argument can be made either way - as usual, the law chaos axis is fairly poorly defined, as Gregor Clegane is not exactly a deep character for whom alignment would work poorly.

Burner28
2012-08-13, 07:04 PM
Doctor Who is Chaotic Good.

Harry Potter: NG
Hermionie Granger: LG
Ron Weasely: CG
Fred and George Weasely: CN
Albus Dumbledore: NG
Minerva McGonagall: LG
Severus Snape: LE (A nice example of an evil character on the Good side.)
Vernon Dursely: LE
Petunia Dursely: LE
Dudley Dursely: NE
Voldemort: CE
Delores Umbridge: LE
Cornelius Fudge: LN
Percy Weasley: LN
Arthur Weasely: CG
Molly Weasely: NG
Oliver Wood: N
Bellatrix Lestrange: CE
Lucius Malfoy: LE
Draco Malfoy: NE
Sirius Black: CG
Peter Pettigrew: CE

I thought Pettigrew was NE, selfish above all else, Law and Chaos included.

Sith_Happens
2012-08-13, 08:16 PM
Doctor Who is Chaotic Good.

Dangit, I thought of that one a few days ago but was too slow on posting it.:smallsigh:


I'm sorry, but if the Doctor was a purely Good character how come several entire races and organizations considers him dangerous and an enemy? Races and organizations who generally are not disruptive or "trying to conquer the universe"? Neutral with Good tendencies for certain (And certainly Good from humanities point of view) but I wouldn't go as far as pin him down as Good. (Granted depending on incarnation it can vary a little, but on the whole, from 1st through 11th, I'd say Neutral.)

Because you're severely glossing over the "chaotic" part. As long the Doctor saves the day with as few non-Dalek/Cyberman casualties as possible, he tends to not care what he has to do to achieve that result, how much of a mess he makes, or who he pisses off in the process.

That, and the Ninth Doctor is kind of a d***. One who for all we know had a century or two before the start of the revived series to rub various civilizations the wrong way.

navar100
2012-08-13, 08:38 PM
@Navar100
I'm sorry, but if the Doctor was a purely Good character how come several entire races and organizations considers him dangerous and an enemy? Races and organizations who generally are not disruptive or "trying to conquer the universe"? Neutral with Good tendencies for certain (And certainly Good from humanities point of view) but I wouldn't go as far as pin him down as Good. (Granted depending on incarnation it can vary a little, but on the whole, from 1st through 11th, I'd say Neutral.)

Races like who? Daleks? Sontarans? Weeping Angels? The Silence? Silurians? The Racnoss? Nessenes? Cybermen? Funny how those races like to conquer or destroy others, with a purely coincidental :smallamused: interest I'm sure in humans in particular but the Doctor defeats their plans time and time again, pun intended. You are known by your enemies. I don't apologize for not taking the Sontaran view of the Doctor, as an example.

navar100
2012-08-13, 08:42 PM
I thought Pettigrew was NE, selfish above all else, Law and Chaos included.

He's a coward, not selfish, and runs to whoever is the strongest. That's a trait of a weak-willed CE person.

Giegue
2012-08-13, 08:55 PM
The lack of Naruto in this thread disturbs me. Let me change that...

Naruto: CG
Sasuke: CE
Sakura: NG
Kakashi: NG
Jiraya: CG
Minato: LG
Kushina: CG
Harishima Senju: LG
Killer B.: CG
Madara: NE
Tobi: NE
Nagato/Pain: LE
Konan: LN?
Itachi: LN
Kisame: LE
Sasori: NE
Deidara: CE
Kakuzu: NE
Hidan: CE
Zetsu: NE
Danzo: LE
Orochimaru: CE
Kabuto: NE

More will be forthcoming.

navar100
2012-08-13, 11:06 PM
I submit that Q is Chaotic Good. That he's Chaotic is without question, and there is very strong argument he is Chaotic Neutral. However, there is method to his madness, and in truth his true cause has been for Good. His trial of Humanity was shown to be to save it. His introduction of the Borg is circumspect, especially with crewmembers' deaths, but his lesson was a good one even if difficult to hear.

He also has a redeeming virtue as admitted to by Captain Janeway. He is not a liar. Alternatively said, he is honest. While that is more the purview of Lawfulness, his Chaotic nature is so strong in obviousness this also strong virtue trait must then be a sign of his Goodness.

Given his first two appearances you can argue he's Chaotic Neutral. At the time of the pilot episode the clarification of the trial in the finale episode wasn't conceived for redemption of his character. I could concede that point. Therefore, what constitutes the Redemption? His Exile. He was punished by the Q Continuum of expulsion due to his Chaotic ways. His attitude towards the Callimarey (sp?) shows maliciousness. Upon his self-sacrifice to protect the Enterprise and return to the Continuum, that is when he changed. He understood consequences, and it's from then all his actions were ultimately for a Good cause however cloudy the message in his Chaos. The Borg introduction was before this, but the point stands.

The Boz
2012-08-14, 06:52 AM
Q's alignment isn't Chaotic Neutral, it's Sherbert Viridian.


Let's try and classify something actually difficult. Watchmen.
Yes, I did just mention them.
Go.

Water_Bear
2012-08-14, 08:14 AM
He also has a redeeming virtue as admitted to by Captain Janeway. He is not a liar.

Watch the first 2mins of this video. (http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/v830.asp)

Actually, watch all of it because SF Debris is amazing, but that little opening bit explains why the Voyager writers were idiots with no idea what they were talking about.


Let's try and classify something actually difficult. Watchmen.


I would say;

Dr Manhattan: TN
Comedian: NE
Ozymandias: LE*
Owlman: NG
Silk Spectre II: ???**
Rorschach: LE***

*D&D is not consequentialist, and hurting the innocent is always evil. Of course, the question isn't "was it wrong?" so much as "was it necessary?" which is outside the alignment system.
**Her character is basically scenery; I don't see how the story would have been any different if she had been replaced by a particularly fancy lamp.
***He uses brutal torture on fairly minor criminals, kills cops who get in his way without hesitation, relishes the idea of an apocalypse as 'punishment' for people's tolerance of the sin he perceives around them , and eats beans right out of the can. Definitely Evil.

Lvl45DM!
2012-08-14, 09:49 AM
Dr Manhattan: TN
Comedian: NE
Ozymandias: LE*
Owlman: NG
Silk Spectre II: ???**
Rorschach: LE***

*D&D is not consequentialist, and hurting the innocent is always evil. Of course, the question isn't "was it wrong?" so much as "was it necessary?" which is outside the alignment system.
**Her character is basically scenery; I don't see how the story would have been any different if she had been replaced by a particularly fancy lamp.
***He uses brutal torture on fairly minor criminals, kills cops who get in his way without hesitation, relishes the idea of an apocalypse as 'punishment' for people's tolerance of the sin he perceives around them , and eats beans right out of the can. Definitely Evil.

Comedian is CE. He is often impulsive, a trait of Chaos. I often see Dr. Manhattan posted as TN when really i think of him as very weak NG. For most of his existance he actually is trying to make the world a better place. Except for his sojourn to Mars, everything he does is basically Good

The Boz
2012-08-14, 10:04 AM
Doc Manny is LN. He is L to such an extent that he doesn't even have an ego or any kind of driving force. He is completely controlled by the laws he observes, and he surrenders to them freely.
Raw Shark is... complicated. He used to be LG, following a very well defined set of rules, and acting for the good of pretty much everyone, until that one case with the dogs. He snapped. He remained L, even became a fanatic, but I have no idea if he would be classified as E or N. Kind of leaning towards LN.
Ozzy is equally complicated. His motives are clearly LN, but his acts are LE. He most likely is LE, but "for the right reasons". The crusader/martyr type LE.
Comedian is a clear example of CE; he does what he enjoys, and follows orders just because they enable him to do what he likes to do best.
Molly is probably NE, but we don't know enough to know for certain.
Moth-boy is CG who went CN in the most extreme example: madness.

Incom
2012-08-14, 10:22 AM
On the subject of Doctor Who:

Caveat: I've only seen the new series.

The Doctor's alignment tends to vary by incarnation. I can't really seem to pin Eleven down, probably CG but maybe he just looks that way from being goofy. Ten was good, other than the brief Time Lord Victorious shenanigans (and he learned his lesson rather quickly). Nine was probably neutral, we didn't see him on screen much. Overall? He's committed multiple genocides, but he only ever does it to save more lives than he takes, so he can probably get away with being neutral. I'd say he's neutral without a companion and good with a companion. On the morality axis, anyway. Law and chaos? I'm not even going there.

The Master is easier to pin down. He's CE. He does have the capacity for scheming that's more associated with LE, but he was concerned more for his own power than anything. He doesn't have any sort of personal code, nor does he conform to anyone else's rules except to subvert them. CE.

Daleks are LE. Their code amounts to "we're the best, nobody else deserves to live", but it's there. Cybermen probably count as LE too, since they're basically lesser Daleks (only with "nobody else deserves to live" toned down to "all the humans should be turned into cybermen").

Sontarans are lawful with a heavy dose of blue-and-orange morality. So probably LN/LE on our scale depending on how objective or subjective one considers morality.

Objections?

Burner28
2012-08-14, 01:35 PM
Q's alignment isn't Chaotic Neutral, it's Sherbert Viridian.


Let's try and classify something actually difficult. Watchmen.
Yes, I did just mention them.
Go.

Speaking of Watchmen, there is an interesting video about the supposed alignments of the characters. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kji18ydvMHM)

The Boz
2012-08-14, 02:10 PM
That guy's arguments are poor, they boil down to "people say I'm wrong, but I'm not because they're wrong". And he only gets two or three out of nine correct. Maybe four if you count Big Figure as correct. His reasoning for the Comedian so lolworthy.

hamishspence
2012-08-14, 02:11 PM
Problem is, "not compromising" is something any alignment can do- depending on the values in question.

"Making personal sacrifices to help others" is pretty fundamental to Good. And the PHB stresses that Neutrals will make personal sacrifices too- but generally not for people they don't have a personal connection to.

While Rorschach's lifestyle could be viewed as a "personal sacrifice" I'm not sure if it qualifies.

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-08-15, 08:01 PM
Sandor's face, that's why.

i didnt want to reply to this, but the song of ice and fire characters are hard to align. Alot of the time i see when someone gives an alignment they only fix onto one scene like when Jamie Lannister pushed young Bran out of the window, even in the book when a character does something there is a justifiable reason for the action.

The action bewteen Gregor and Sandor can be view as a lawful action. The only reason that Gregor burnd Sandor face is because Sandor was playing with gregors toys, Sandor knew he would get into trouble if Gregor catches him but he played with them anyway.

alot of characters have lawful, good, chaotic or evil followed by stupid in their alignment.

here are a few
Ned Stark is lawful stupid (think paladin stupid)
Joffery Baratheon is stupid evil
Sansa Stark is lawful stupid
Brienne of tarth is lawful stupid
Cersei Lannister is stupid evil
Jamie Lannister is lawful stupid
Tyrion Lannister is more true neutral
Daenerys Targaryen is stupid good

Templarkommando
2012-08-15, 10:49 PM
The comment about the explosives was a joke, I thought that would be fairly obvious. And I still can't quite see them as Neutral Good, but I admit that it's been a while since I watched the show and I used to be quite the Murdoc fan, so there's a chance that might be messing with my memory, making me consider them more Chaotic than the team on the whole actually were.



I'm a little dense sometimes. My apologies.

Murdoc was actually the prime candidate in my mind for being CG, and I could see an argument for Face being CG as well. My main thought process was sense Hannibal is more or less the team leader, I'd take my sample from him. So maybe it was a little heavy handed to just blanket the A-Team as NG.

So my mistake would be akin to calling the OoTs LG because of Roy's alignment.

Dienekes
2012-08-15, 11:00 PM
i didnt want to reply to this, but the song of ice and fire characters are hard to align. Alot of the time i see when someone gives an alignment they only fix onto one scene like when Jamie Lannister pushed young Bran out of the window, even in the book when a character does something there is a justifiable reason for the action.

The action bewteen Gregor and Sandor can be view as a lawful action. The only reason that Gregor burnd Sandor face is because Sandor was playing with gregors toys, Sandor knew he would get into trouble if Gregor catches him but he played with them anyway.

alot of characters have lawful, good, chaotic or evil followed by stupid in their alignment.

here are a few
Ned Stark is lawful stupid (think paladin stupid)
Joffery Baratheon is stupid evil
Sansa Stark is lawful stupid
Brienne of tarth is lawful stupid
Cersei Lannister is stupid evil
Jamie Lannister is lawful stupid
Tyrion Lannister is more true neutral
Daenerys Targaryen is stupid good

Gotta ask how Jaime is lawful stupid, since most his discussion on the subject involves him saying why he completely ignores his vows and the laws because he thinks they are self contradictory and stupid.

Also I'd suggest putting Sansa as Stupid Stupid.

crazyhedgewizrd
2012-08-16, 01:23 AM
Gotta ask how Jaime is lawful stupid, since most his discussion on the subject involves him saying why he completely ignores his vows and the laws because he thinks they are self contradictory and stupid.

Also I'd suggest putting Sansa as Stupid Stupid.

The reason i think he is lawful is more to how he is evolving as a character in the later books. Yes he admits that the vows he has taken can be contradictory, and when has there not been any stupid laws. I have to ask what do you see him as?

Please remember Sansa is a thirteen year old girl, she wants to do the right thing but dosn't understand what she does is stupid.

Knaight
2012-08-16, 01:28 AM
Please remember Sansa is a thirteen year old girl, she wants to do the right thing but dosn't understand what she does is stupid.
Generally speaking, people doing stupid things don't realize it. That's not a defense. That said, her decisions generally haven't been stupid since she realized what an utter tool Joffrey was.

VanBuren
2012-08-16, 05:53 AM
Generally speaking, people doing stupid things don't realize it. That's not a defense. That said, her decisions generally haven't been stupid since she realized what an utter tool Joffrey was.

If anything, Joffrey is the one who should be classified as Stupid Stupid.

Because, like, seriously. Within his first few days of being king, he makes the world's stupidest decision. I mean, technically he improves from then on. But only in the sense that there's really nowhere else to go.

Knaight
2012-08-16, 03:42 PM
If anything, Joffrey is the one who should be classified as Stupid Stupid.

Because, like, seriously. Within his first few days of being king, he makes the world's stupidest decision. I mean, technically he improves from then on. But only in the sense that there's really nowhere else to go.

He improves from then on in the sense that other people manage to reign him in more. Remove Cersei, remove Tywin, remove everyone else keeping Joffrey from making unilateral decisions, and we would have seen Joffrey making decisions that stupid over and over again. Worse, that appears to be exactly where things would have headed - Tywin no longer has any control over Joffrey, Cersei appears to be losing hers, and even if she isn't her intelligence is slipping and she is pulling brilliant stunts like recreating the Faith Militant.

Beleriphon
2012-08-16, 04:35 PM
Discworld

LG: Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson
NG: Commander Sam Vimes
CG: Rincewind, Nanny Ogg
LN: Mustrum Ridcully, Archchancellor of the Unseen University
TN:Death, Fred Colon
CN: The Faeries, Cohen the Barbarian (and the Silver Horde)
LE: Lord Havelock Vetinari, Willikins (Vimes' butler)
NE: Mr. Teatime
CE: Anything from the dungeon dimensions

Dienekes
2012-08-16, 11:05 PM
The reason i think he is lawful is more to how he is evolving as a character in the later books. Yes he admits that the vows he has taken can be contradictory, and when has there not been any stupid laws. I have to ask what do you see him as?

Please remember Sansa is a thirteen year old girl, she wants to do the right thing but dosn't understand what she does is stupid.

Well here's the thing, despite his character development we still see him blatantly disregard the rules from time to time, and haven't seen him do too much stupid. So I don't think the Lawful Stupid alignment ever actually fits him.

And being young doesn't seem to be an excuse in this series for stupid behavior. Just about every kid is smarter than her. Admittedly, currently she can't make any decisions so her stupid potential is lower, also she's learning at the lap of one of the smartest folks in the kingdom, so here's hoping she gains an IQ point or 30.

Knaight
2012-08-16, 11:17 PM
And being young doesn't seem to be an excuse in this series for stupid behavior. Just about every kid is smarter than her. Admittedly, currently she can't make any decisions so her stupid potential is lower, also she's learning at the lap of one of the smartest folks in the kingdom, so here's hoping she gains an IQ point or 30.
On the other hand, you have people like Joffrey, not to mention Robert Arryn. These people are way stupider than Sansa.

eulmanis12
2012-08-17, 11:01 PM
and now a whole new alignment spectrum

Smart Fun Fun Stupid Fun
Lenard Hoffsteader Rajiesh Kuthrapali Penny

Smart Dull Stupid
Bernadet Walowitz Mr/Mrs Kuthrpali Mrs Walowitz

Smart Annoying Annoying Stupid Annoying
Sheldon Cooper Howard Walowitz Sheldon Cooper