[3.5] Fighter Alternatives?

[aphoticConniver]

One of the players in my group is starting to get disinterested in D&D, and I believe it's because he always plays a Dwarven Fighter. Since his latest character has died, what sort of class would be good for transitioning to a more interesting combat, without being too complicated(barring the Warblade/Soulsage/Crusader)? Keeping the Dwarven race is a must. Thanks!

[gallagher]

have him play a martial-focused cleric, or have him play a druid so he can do whatever role he feels he wants to do at any given time.

[Mithril Leaf]

If he really likes being a fighter, there are several other good fighter varients. Zhentarium and Dungeoncrasher come to mind.

[God Imperror]

Well I don't think that spellcasters are easy till you go over the spell lists and learn what can they do... so I would encourage something more martial.

If crusaders / warblades are out of the equation and he wants something martial were a dwarf can be pretty good... then I seriously suggest knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) It is free and comes with a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). It is a fun class in melee and is not complicated.

[Menteith]

Barbarian (PHB, rages, some really good alternate class features), Duskblade (PHBII, arcane warrior), Knight (PHBII, tank/ockdown), Marshall (Miniature's Handbook, cha-based buffer with auras), Hexblade (Complete Warrior, arcane melee/debuffer), Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook, pretty much what its name suggests). I'd recommend the Knight as a step up from the Fighter (it actually has class features), that plays similarly.

Also, check out some of the alternate class feature available for various classes. There are a few compilations that a google search will turn up, and the abilities you can grab can really make a character more interesting.

[aphoticConniver]

The Knight sounds really good, the only problem for the class is role-play wise. He always plays Chaotic, so the Knight's Code feature would be relatively restrictive. But that could be fixed with some Diplomacy checks with the DM. Now, seeing as the class needs Charisma, what type of Dwarf would be best suited to being a Knight?

[Gavinfoxx]

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1281.0

Gold Dwarf
Dream Dwarf
Desert Dwarf

[Menteith]

The Knight sounds really good, the only problem for the class is role-play wise. He always plays Chaotic, so the Knight's Code feature would be relatively restrictive. But that could be fixed with some Diplomacy checks with the DM. Now, seeing as the class needs Charisma, what type of Dwarf would be best suited to being a Knight?

Desert Dwarf (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm)?

+2 Con, -2 Dex, no stonecunning, +4 AC against dragons instead of giants, +1 attack against [Reptilian] creatures instead orcs and goblins, +2 Knowledge [Architecture & Engineering], +2 Knowledge [Dungeoneering], +2 Profession [Miner], no craft bonus, +4 on Fort saves against heat.

[Water_Bear]

The Knight sounds really good, the only problem for the class is role-play wise. He always plays Chaotic, so the Knight's Code feature would be relatively restrictive. But that could be fixed with some Diplomacy checks with the DM. Now, seeing as the class needs Charisma, what type of Dwarf would be best suited to being a Knight?

Every Dwarf. Dwarves are (at least in the default fluff) obsessed with Family Honor and the idea of achievement through skill (most visible with their emphasis on craftsdwarfship*). They are also listed as Usually LG, which means a sizable plurality of their population is LG and many of the rest are likely LN and NG.

Of course, the default Dwarf fluff is unbearably overused, so I wouldn't recommend suggesting a Dwarven Knight.

Honestly, it sounds like the real problem is that your player is bored of being a Chaotic Dwarf Fighter every single game, so rather than telling them to be a Chaotic Dwarf Warblade maybe throw some different ideas around. A LN Human Marshall? A TN Lesser Aasimar Warlock? A Warforged Swift Hunter?

See what catches your player's interest rather than trying to keep pushing the same idea with a slightly different spin.


*This is my new favorite word.

[aphoticConniver]

Every Dwarf. Dwarves are (at least in the default fluff) obsessed with Family Honor and the idea of achievement through skill (most visible with their emphasis on craftsdwarfship*). They are also listed as Usually LG, which means a sizable plurality of their population is LG and many of the rest are likely LN and NG.

Of course, the default Dwarf fluff is unbearably overused, so I wouldn't recommend suggesting a Dwarven Knight.

Honestly, it sounds like the real problem is that your player is bored of being a Chaotic Dwarf Fighter every single game, so rather than telling them to be a Chaotic Dwarf Warblade maybe throw some different ideas around. A LN Human Marshall? A TN Lesser Aasimar Warlock? A Warforged Swift Hunter?

See what catches your player's interest rather than trying to keep pushing the same idea with a slightly different spin.


*This is my new favorite word.

Naturally, I have to clear this with my DM, and to be honest, he knows the guy way better than I do, so I'm going to discuss it with him.

[Togo]

Well.. for a really off the wall suggestion, you could create a monster class for the Midgard dwarf from Frostburn. That would take him from 1st to 12th level with no class abilities, but excellent stats and some classic dwarf-style powers.

It might look something like this:
Outsiders get full BAB progression and three good saves (like a monk). However, the character only gets a hit dice (hps, BAB, saves, etc.) at the levels indicated. They are proficient with all martial weapons and up to heavy armour.
HP d8

1: 1HD Small size, Dwarf Blood, Native Outsider traits (see also MM appendix), +2 Int
2: - +2 Con Racial bonus of +4 to Craft, +2 to Use Magical Device
3: 2HD +2 Str +1 Natural Armour
4 - +2 Con Master Smith - Craft Arms & Armour bonus feat
5 3HD +2 Int Spell resistance 12
6 4HD +2 Con +1 Natural armour Alternate Form (Su)
7 - + 2 Str Master Smith - Craft Wonderous bonus feat
8 5HD +2 Wis +1 Natural Armour +7 skill points
9 6HD +2 Con Racial bonus +4 to Craft, +2 to Use Magical Device
10 - +2 Str Master Smith - Forge Ring bonus feat
11 7HD +2 Con Spell resistance 16
12 8HD +2 Wis Curse (Su)

All bonuses stack. You'll need to look up what everything does in Frostburn.

It looks like a lot, but it's less than it looks. The stat bonuses almost exactly compensate for the lost HD, the extra skill points will probably get swallowed up by different craft skills, and the abilities aren't much. The big one is master smith - make sure he doesn't get more WBL than he should and you'll be fine. He'll get an advantage in customising his own gear, and making items and crafting like dwarves should. The end result should be the dwarfiest dwarf in all of dwarftown, and would certainly be easy to play, since you have no abilities usable in combat at all.

Beyond 12th level, his lack of class abilities and hit dice will be a bigger problem, and you should definitely consider using the LA buyback rules at this point.

I'd also recommend a flip through races of stone.

[ericgrau]

You might try a dwarven eldritch knight (or abjurant champion) with still spell to introduce casting to him slowly. The minimum viable level is 6, though 9 is preferable. Barbarian 1 / wizard 5 / EK X. Fighter 1 or ranger 1 is ok too. Sorcerer could work a level later. Due to the limited spell options and still spell it works well and requires only the minimum charisma. Basic tactics: morning hour/level spells (w/o armor), [buff round if any], cast a crowd control spell (w/ still spell), rage, smash.

Below are some good spells from core for the concept. From spell compendium just about every swift spell is also good since they have no ASF and let him attack the same round. But if he selects these barbarian is less good since you can't cast while raging.

1: unseen servant, feather fall (no ASF), alarm (evenings)
2: false life, still ray of enfeeblement (level 12+), still protection from evil (buffing round only)
3: still web, greater magic weapon, still bull's strength (buffing round only, replaces PfE), phantom steed, heroism
4: still haste, still empowered ray of enfeeblement, still sleet storm, still fireball, dimension door (no ASF), stoneskin, still displacement (buffing round only, replaces BS)

Scrolls: endure elements, identify, true strike (no ASF), spider climb
Potions: enlarge person, oil of magic weapon (for DR), bull's strength (high level play, buffing rounds only)
wands: invisibility, ray of enfeeblement (caster level 10)

Schools used: conjuration x4, transmutation x5, abjuration x4, necromancy x(2-4), enchantment x1, evocation x1, divination x2, illusion x2. There are 3 obvious ban targets. Though note that at level 13+ necromancy starts to drop off for this build while evocation becomes epic with still wall of force + still resilient sphere + contingency. And note abjurations tend to be at the back of the above lists.

He need not get everything. I tried to put the better spells first on each list, though the order is debatable. As you can see spell levels 1 & 2 really struggle but by level 4 the list explodes. In fact for future levels he can just do the standard crowd control wizard stuff.

[VGLordR2]

You may want to introduce him to a Totemist, from Magic of Incarnum. The system can be a little complicated at first, but it's really very simple. It will allow him to choose soulmelds (which are like all-day powers). They will allow him to be a strong frontline combatant, with additional cool options like the Blink Shirt soulmeld (which is essentially a 10-foot Dimension Door). Also, Totemists can choose different soulmelds every day, so he can start to get a feel of what works and what doesn't, without restricting the potential of his character. To top it off, Totemists synergize well with Dwarves, and work perfectly on a Chaotic character.

[gallagher]

Well I don't think that spellcasters are easy till you go over the spell lists and learn what can they do... so I would encourage something more martial.

If crusaders / warblades are out of the equation and he wants something martial were a dwarf can be pretty good... then I seriously suggest knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) It is free and comes with a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429). It is a fun class in melee and is not complicated.

Playing a spellcaster like a spellcaster is difficult until you learn the ins and outs of their lists, but if you play like a fighter then it is much simpler.

Cleric: Buff yourself and play like a fighter. Prepare a few other spells that sound like fun until you learn the list better, or what your party might need. You can go all day without using the other spells if you want, but it gives you interesting options without having to change your play style.

Same with a Druid. Wildshape into a bear and flank with your bear animal companion, or take mounted feats and get a rhino or somethign and wildshape into other creatures when needed. You can buff yourself and your animal companion, and prepare a couple other fun spells for when they might come up.

[killianh]

instead of dwarf why not try out Azer? There are a ton of builds he can go (one of which is the classic flaming rage barbarian)

[eggs]

One difficulty is that strength in D&D often boils down to versatility (being able to both provide and work around a wide array of blanket defenses and varied scenarios); and versatility is almost synonymous with complexity.

I'd recommend psionics if the goal is just to keep things easy in play. There'd be a brief learning period beforehand, but something like a psychic warrior is going to have few enough abilities to adequately write up on one 3x5 card, but they're generally pretty fluent at the table.

If complexity is an issue, I'd strongly recommend pretending Incarnum is a thing Even once you know how the system works (not a small task with the heavy jargon and iffy editing), there are still 50 or so soulmelds to skim/become familiar with before a player has any idea what the classes even do, and once play's started, there are constant recalculations of bonuses and always issues of unexpected chakra conflicts.

[Wings of Peace]

Make him play as a Crusader and use Maneuver Cards. Also demand that before he draws he has to pray to his deck.

[Lonely Tylenol]

I would recommend any of the following:
Totemist/Soulborn from Magic of Incarnum: basically, magic items as class features, with an internal driving force that allows you to power them up. They also get some cool options from the Magic Item Compendium. I don't really recommend the Soulborn much, as the class is a mess, but it's a full BAB class, if that makes it an easier sell.
Warlock from Complete Arcane: Chaotic fits this to a T. Glaivelocks can make good melee characters, they have other interesting abilities, and the invocation system really is not that complicated (you get to pick new abilities when you level up, and once you get them, you can use them whenever you want; that's all you need to know).
Dragonfire Adept from Dragon Magic: As Warlock, but with less viable melee focus.
Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana (SRD): A Paladin, but with a less restrictive code (focused on chaos and good, instead of law and good). Frankly, I am not a huge fan of this option; however, I feel it is nonetheless worth considering the Prestige Paladin from Unearthed Arcana (SRD) with a Cleric base, as you can build a battle-focused Cleric by marrying the two.
Cleric from Player's Handbook (SRD): Dwarven Clerics aren't exactly unheard of (in fact, OotS's own Cleric is a Dwarf). Cleric can also lay the smackdown upon its enemies, but it is very diverse, and can be played a number of different ways, depending on your friend's style.

Everything else that is like a Fighter has been suggested, but I'd say differentiate somewhat.

[aphoticConniver]

I have some really great and awesome news that completely simplifies everything. Apparently I underestimated my friend, and the Initiator classes are available for choosing. I'm assuming Warblade is best for a Dwarf, so are there any tips for maneuvers and the like that are pretty good?

[Coidzor]

Crusader works fine too. Really any of them will be fine for a dorf.

I feel that Crusader is the most straightforward to learn if there's concerns about complication though, due to the more limited selection of powers and their defined method of refreshing automatically. Warblade is pretty close though, I'll admit.

[The Glyphstone]

Personally, I find Warblade to be a simpler maneuver-refresh mechanic than Crusaders. Crusaders are more mechanically powerful due to the actionless recovery, but Warblade is a very simple and binary 'stab a dude, everything recharges'.

[Gwendol]

Cleric of War, going into Ordained Champion? That should give him some novelty while still being able to be CG, and dwarf if that's what he wants. There are some suitable dwarven deities that fits with the OC fluff (Haela Brightaxe comes to mind).

[nedz]

Ranger is a pretty solid choice, just allow him to choose different combat styles.
Scout/Ranger Swiftblade might also interest him.

[aphoticConniver]

Alright, so the concept I have for his character is a Dwarven Warblade, 13th level, that two-hands a dwarven waraxe. How, without magic items, should I get his AC past how dismally low it is now? Which is a 16.

[Novawurmson]

Amulet of Natural Armor? Ring of Protection? Magical armor?

Edit: Does he have a shield bonus from anywhere?

[ericgrau]

Wait, without magic items? Where else are you ever supposed to get AC?

Well here's the answer with items:

On a level 13 budget? No problem. First get boots of speed for haste, that's a given on almost any melee, 12k. Also gives +1 AC most rounds.
Next:
+3 full plate: 10.5k, 11 AC
+1 animated heavy shield: 8.5k, 3 AC
+2 amulet of natural armor: 8k, 2 AC
+2 ring of protection: 8k, 2 AC
dusty rose prism ioun stone: 5k, 1 AC
total: 10 (base) + 1 (dex) + 20 (items) = 31 AC, 52k. Still plenty of money leftover for other gear, and that even includes the sweet boots.

Alternatively you could get +3 mithral full plate for 20.5k, then drop the amulet of natural armor to +1. It's another 5k but you also get a point of AC putting him at 32 AC, assuming he can manage the dexterity for it. And he'll be wanting to upgrade to mithril soon anyway so it may be better to take care of it now. You could drop the armor to +2 if money is tight. OTOH if his dex is low even selling the full plate for half he's only out 5k which is a lot now but it won't be in a couple levels, when dex will also be more affordable.

[Gavinfoxx]

Alright, so the concept I have for his character is a Dwarven Warblade, 13th level, that two-hands a dwarven waraxe. How, without magic items, should I get his AC past how dismally low it is now? Which is a 16.

Why, exactly, would a 13th level character have no magic items?

[aphoticConniver]

Why, exactly, would a 13th level character have no magic items?

Well... to make a long story short, we started our current campaign with no knowledge of WBL, and going by my prior gaming experience, magic items were rare, so we started at level 10 with 200 GP in our pockets. After learning about this about halfway through our current adventure, we as a group decided it would be best to keep any magic items and such to a minimum until we return to our home plane, with our actual WBL having been stored in a "bank", and accounting for increased level and the like as "interest". I believe the most magical item we have is a magic spoon carried by our Rogue, which absorbs lockpicks and morphs into a +6 lockpicking tool.

Yeah, it kind of sucks, but we have to deal with it for the time being. However, I might be able to persuade some items if his AC really is lacking, which it is. But it can't be anything, say, over a maximum of +2 armor, or around that level of magical abilities.

[eggs]

:smalleek:
I'm amazed that any character beside the divine casters could survive.

[aphoticConniver]

:smalleek:
I'm amazed that any character beside the divine casters could survive.

Our party being made up of a (formerly Druid/Warshaper) Spirit Shaman, Cleric, and split personality Paladin/Blackguard, and an overleveled Rogue(Deck of Many Things) with a highly inventive player (took out about 180 Wights with a pressure plate trap that broke a Wand of Fireball with 35 charges) help. That, and we tend to get very lucky. A lot.

[God Imperror]

How does a paladin / crusader / rkv sound then? :smallsmile: Or a cleric / crusader / ordained champion (Careful you need dm approval because patron deity requiriments) / rkv

It would have a better AC using some spells and it still has maneuvers and feels like a martial character, in addition it gets strong levels of power using divine blessing or the auto quicken for war domain spells of the ordained champion.

If you want to break it... cleric / crusader / prestige paladin / rkv.

[ericgrau]

Well if he can't get his AC above 21 I wouldn't even bother and I'd just wait until the party gets back to their money later. And... try talking through your problems, come to a peaceful understanding :smalltongue:. Or get creative. Or one shot enemies. Make them come to you then focus fire so they don't get full attacks.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Person_Man wrote a guide on optimizing AC. I suggest looking it up, and cherry picking whatever seems most appropriate to the character.

I'd link it, but linking pages is really difficult when you have no copy/paste ability.

[Essence_of_War]

For a dwarf, you might try something like:

Incarnate4/Crusader1/Ironsoul Forgemaster X
OR
Incarnate 6/Crusader2/ISFM X

The latter gets thicket of blades which is always nice. The former gets into ISFM faster which is much better overall.

The crusader gives some interesting combat decisions, while the ISFM class features let him maximize the power of his WBL and combine with his essentia pool.

[GenghisDon]

:smalleek:
I'm amazed that any character beside the divine casters could survive.

Naw, I often start characters off with little to no gear.

One just needs to tailor the encounters to suit. Also, add more potential loot than "normal" for a while.

The reasons why I like doing this include:
+player has time to get into their character's abilities as opposed to their gear's
+advancement is slower to start, also giving more time to get "used" to a character
+magic items can be rare or not in the game, but they are always earned
+players are magic hungry & pleased with pretty much every little find.
+new characters still have something of a low level feel, without actually being so weak

[Kane0]

Chaotic Dwarf warrior you say?

Try some homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=245830) if you're game, otherwise maybe something out of the ordinary but not complex compared to the average fighter (read: MoI or ToB). Maybe Hexblade or PF inspired paladin or cavalier?

Edit: Just change alignment to suit your needs with the last two there. Also this may or may not tickle your fancy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=228617)