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View Full Version : Liches: thinking outside the box



kwanzaabot
2012-08-13, 02:03 AM
So, a lot of liches I've seen tend to fall into one of two categories. There's the evil overlord type, and then there's the good lich who became undead to protect something or somebody. But usually there's just the evil overlord.

I'm looking to shake things up, and maybe inject a little moral greyness into the mix, so I thought I'd post here, and see what kind of lich characters people can come up with by taking the lich outside the box, and then setting the box on fire and scattering the ashes of the box into the wind. :smallcool:

Lanaya
2012-08-13, 02:13 AM
I don't think anyone in my game is going to be reading this, but if you are, stop it right now.

Well, technically this falls under protecting something or somebody, but the lich in my current campaign became a lich in order to save himself. He was being hunted by some very efficient assassins, and the only way he could evade them was to make them think he was already dead. And the only way to do that was to actually die. So he makes a phylactery, lets them kill him and destroy all trace of the body, and then 1d10 days later his body reforms and he walks away a free man.

kwanzaabot
2012-08-13, 02:15 AM
I don't think anyone in my game is going to be reading this, but if you are, stop it right now.

Well, technically this falls under protecting something or somebody, but the lich in my current campaign became a lich in order to save himself. He was being hunted by some very efficient assassins, and the only way he could evade them was to make them think he was already dead. And the only way to do that was to actually die. So he makes a phylactery, lets them kill him and destroy all trace of the body, and then 1d10 days later his body reforms and he walks away a free man.

That's actually pretty cool.

The-Mage-King
2012-08-13, 02:19 AM
A lich who turned undead so that they could learn all of the things- he (or she) has founded a library of arcane writings, and does allow people access, if they agree to help with (usually nonlethal) research, or contribute something of their own to it.

Though similar has been done before, I'm pretty sure.

DarthCyberWolf
2012-08-13, 02:32 AM
You could take off the evil part of “evil overlord”. Say there was someone who wanted to set up a single system (himself at the top of course) rather than multiple tribes, cities, etc. His reasons could be to actually unite everyone instead of just for personal power. He could be opposed by normal good characters who see the tyrant you’d expect, or by chaotic types who’d prefer individuality. Could become more of an order vs. freedom, instead of good vs. evil.

Remember that the reason for becoming a lich is less about power, more about cheating death. Maybe this character sees it as his personal mission for whatever reason and was being hunted by those against the idea. They were getting close to killing him, so he needed a backup plan. Or maybe he was just getting old because it took a long time. Time’s a *****.

GM.Casper
2012-08-13, 04:10 AM
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Absolutism is the best form of government - until you die and your life's work is destroyed by a incompetent successor.

Zaggab
2012-08-13, 04:35 AM
I had a lich character sketched up for a campaign that I never had room to introduce, but he was a non-typical lich. He was an artist who just wanted to live forever, to be able to create the art he loved until the end of time. He was still quite evil though, by being incredibly selfish and insensitive to others, but too sqeamish to have any love for violence.

Then the villains got hold of his phylactery and blackmailed him into going along with their plans (or, they would have, if the campaign had room for him).

GodGoblin
2012-08-13, 04:45 AM
Ive always loved the idea of Liches who have 'lived' so long theve gained some perspective on the world and become harbingers of neutrality, They give up on the usual evil deeds as after a few tousand years it gets boring, they also realise that absoloute Good can do as much damage as Evil so tehy might form some sort of secret society dedecated to bringing balance to the world.


Ive also wanted to include a lich in my games who has been working on a portrait for thousands of years and achieved near photo realism :smallbiggrin:

Gettles
2012-08-13, 05:15 AM
How about this, a Lich who just doesn't want to die. They love life and the like seeing the world so they became a Lich, use illusion spells to disguise their physical deterioration, and go about their day to day business, every 15 years or so moving to a new place with a new name to keep people from getting catching on?

Silma
2012-08-13, 05:25 AM
I don't think anyone in my game is going to be reading this, but if you are, stop it right now.

Well, technically this falls under protecting something or somebody, but the lich in my current campaign became a lich in order to save himself. He was being hunted by some very efficient assassins, and the only way he could evade them was to make them think he was already dead. And the only way to do that was to actually die. So he makes a phylactery, lets them kill him and destroy all trace of the body, and then 1d10 days later his body reforms and he walks away a free man.

Interesting idea.


Love the name by the way. :smallbiggrin:

North_Ranger
2012-08-13, 05:38 AM
I was at one time fascinated by the baelnorn(sp?) lich variant offered in one of the D&D 3.5 books; essentially an ancient elf who had become a lich to serve as the record keeper and living memory of an elven family, kingdom or order. In one storytelling game I put a bit of a twist in that, and introduced a millennia-old elven lich who had turned to lichdom to continue his arcane studies. Already standoffish in life, he had become completely detached from the world around him, living only for continued knowledge and preserving as well as expanding his master's legacy. He didn't even acknowledge the world beyond his massive fortress, so monomaniacally focused he was on his studies of the secrets of the universes.

Pretty much the only time he left his fortress was when some lucky rogue managed to sneak off with one of his spellbooks, and then he essentially rode out like a storm of arcane fury.

kwanzaabot
2012-08-13, 06:52 AM
Since I made this thread, I may as well weigh in with my own, huh? (btw, GodGoblin and Gettles, love your ideas)

So, my lich did it all for love. The woman he loved died suddenly, so of course, what do you do in these situations? You make a deal with the devil to bring her back. The cost? His soul.

And of course he didn't read the fine print, as the devil brought his lover back... as a zombie. As, in my setting, dead is dead. No resurrection.

So, after the soon-to-be lich kills the zombie (after all, what choice does he have?), he looks into ways to safeguard his soul. After all, the devil cheated him, so he might as well cheat the devil right back! So, naturally, as you do, he became a lich.

After several decades of research, he discovered that yeah, there's no way to bring the dead properly back to life.

I'm treating him as a very tragic hero. He's got an eternity and nobody to spend it with. so he might as well do some good before some over-zealous paladin puts him down.

Fishman
2012-08-13, 07:02 AM
Absolutism is the best form of government - until you die and your life's work is destroyed by a incompetent successor.That's the beauty of it, isn't it? He's a lich...he doesn't die.

What about the otherwise ordinary dude who isn't evil, or out to rule the world, or has any other monomaniacal lofty goal, he just thinks the entire "dying" thing sucks and becomes a lich just to avoid that?

The Glyphstone
2012-08-13, 08:49 AM
I had a lich character sketched up for a campaign that I never had room to introduce, but he was a non-typical lich. He was an artist who just wanted to live forever, to be able to create the art he loved until the end of time. He was still quite evil though, by being incredibly selfish and insensitive to others, but too sqeamish to have any love for violence.

Then the villains got hold of his phylactery and blackmailed him into going along with their plans (or, they would have, if the campaign had room for him).

I had something similar (an idea I created but never got to use) - a bard determined to create the perfect symphony. He wasn't finished by the time he got old, so he pursued lichdom in order to have eternity to keep tinkering with his music. Had a very phantom-of-the-opera feel.


That's the beauty of it, isn't it? He's a lich...he doesn't die.

What about the otherwise ordinary dude who isn't evil, or out to rule the world, or has any other monomaniacal lofty goal, he just thinks the entire "dying" thing sucks and becomes a lich just to avoid that?

The problem is that the creation of a phylactery is, by default, an 'unspeakably evil act'. It doesn't specify how many orphaned infant livers you need to feed to demons, and can usually be re-fluffed without significant pain, but non-evil liches who aren't Baelnorns/Archliches are deviant by both fluff and rules, so they'll be exceptionally unusual.

Psyren
2012-08-13, 08:50 AM
An oft-overlooked quirk of the lich rules is that some unconventional casters, like Warlocks, can become liches so long as they have any spellcasting ability at all.


One idea I had was of a master craftsman, who pursued lichdom to be able to perfect his art. This lich was a Warlock 12 with Magical Training and a bunch of crafting feats - offensively weak as far as liches go, but able to meet all the RAW requirements for lichdom. The "evil act" requirement was met by selling his soul for craftsmanship ability, i.e. extra crafting feats using the Pact Certain (FC2 23-24) for more feats.

Between his plethora of crafting feats and his Imbue/Deceive Item abilities, he can create any non-artifact in the game - and unlike an Artificer, his items are truly arcane or truly divine as the situation warrants. This makes him highly sought after by adventurers of many backgrounds for a variety of ends. However, being immortal through undeath, Hell has no way to collect its due from him until both he and is phylactery are destroyed - the devils naturally feel cheated and thus wish to hasten his demise. He thus ends up siding with Good out of practicality, as he needs protection, but is not above supplying anyone who can stave off the constant assassins sent his way by Baator, regardless of alignment (he has supplied demons more than once who bear grudges against his devilish pursuers.). He is extremely charismatic, totally paranoid, not-quite-sane, and highly dangerous (since he can also UMD anything he makes, and reserves his choicest creations for his personal use.)

nedz
2012-08-13, 09:34 AM
Lich vs Lich for world domination.

Actually a college of Liches against a renegade.

The renegade Lich, describing himself as a vivi-mancer, manages to recruit a good party to take out the others. It worked very well. He hid on an obscure island, placed several 'prophesies' to entice the PCs into acquiring the relevant artefacts, ...

Zale
2012-08-13, 09:46 AM
Make a female Lich.

They're almost always male, so that'd make an exception right there.

Lapak
2012-08-13, 09:47 AM
One of the earlier liches in a book published for AD&D was neither an evil overlord nor a noble protector. The Forgotten Realms campaign setting for AD&D had an adventure set in a ancient wizards' college in the ruins of Myth Drannor, and one of the inhabitants was an insane lich who didn't realize he was dead or that the college had been abandoned. If the party didn't attack him, he treated them as if they were students and sent them on meaningless errands. If they attacked him, he would kill them (probably easily, since it was otherwise a fairly low-level adventure.)

Eldan
2012-08-13, 09:50 AM
Make a female Lich.

They're almost always male, so that'd make an exception right there.

Vol is female...

Thinker
2012-08-13, 09:50 AM
An oft-overlooked quirk of the lich rules is that some unconventional casters, like Warlocks, can become liches so long as they have any spellcasting ability at all.


One idea I had was of a master craftsman, who pursued lichdom to be able to perfect his art. This lich was a Warlock 12 with Magical Training and a bunch of crafting feats - offensively weak as far as liches go, but able to meet all the RAW requirements for lichdom. The "evil act" requirement was met by selling his soul for craftsmanship ability, i.e. extra crafting feats using the Pact Certain (FC2 23-24) for more feats.

Between his plethora of crafting feats and his Imbue/Deceive Item abilities, he can create any non-artifact in the game - and unlike an Artificer, his items are truly arcane or truly divine as the situation warrants. This makes him highly sought after by adventurers of many backgrounds for a variety of ends. However, being immortal through undeath, Hell has no way to collect its due from him until both he and is phylactery are destroyed - the devils naturally feel cheated and thus wish to hasten his demise. He thus ends up siding with Good out of practicality, as he needs protection, but is not above supplying anyone who can stave off the constant assassins sent his way by Baator, regardless of alignment (he has supplied demons more than once who bear grudges against his devilish pursuers.). He is extremely charismatic, totally paranoid, not-quite-sane, and highly dangerous (since he can also UMD anything he makes, and reserves his choicest creations for his personal use.)

This one is my favorite.

Knight13
2012-08-13, 09:53 AM
I made a lich once that had become a lich by accident and was actually rather nice and quirky. Heck, he wasn't even a caster. I based him off of Shinigami-sama from Soul Eater.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-13, 09:58 AM
I had a lich character sketched up for a campaign that I never had room to introduce, but he was a non-typical lich. He was an artist who just wanted to live forever, to be able to create the art he loved until the end of time. He was still quite evil though, by being incredibly selfish and insensitive to others, but too sqeamish to have any love for violence.

Then the villains got hold of his phylactery and blackmailed him into going along with their plans (or, they would have, if the campaign had room for him).

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that undeads in D&D lose the "creative" part of their mind and basically stay frozen in whatever mentality they had at the moment of their transformation.

Yours is still a good idea, only it would make for a much more tragic figure since the artist would find himself permanently out of ideas, only able to recycle the art he has already done but unable to create anything truly unique or new.

Aedilred
2012-08-13, 10:19 AM
I can't fully remember the background for the lich from my campaign, but I'll do my best. Centuries ago (blah blah) when the central empire (whose name I forget) had been under threat, they had retreated through the mountains to evacuate the heir to the throne. The greatest hero of the empire stayed to act as a rearguard in the mountains (if you think of Roland, that's along the right lines). However, he was betrayed, his men were slaughtered, and he was presumed dead. Even in the modern era he is remembered as a great mythic hero.

However, he survived, turned to lichedom somehow, and since finding his way back to civilisation has been working to destroy the empire (again, I can't remember whether it was the same one, or a successor set up by the invaders he fought against). Either way, he had gone completely mad, and whether or not you agreed with his motivations his methods were supervillainous. It was all about the destruction. He just wanted to bring down the empire so something better could emerge (or so he claimed to his minions and himself, anyway); he wasn't interested in power for its own sake.

Plus, of course, he had a supporting cast of loyal (though often powerful) minions to handle his day-to-day requirements. Most of them were hiding in plain sight. (One of my favourite parts of the campaign was when, after scouring a city for the lich's holdout for several days, one of them thought to go to the central records office and see the list of properties owned by $minion - he was hiding there).

My players seemed to take to the concept - I don't know how original it was, but I think it managed to avoid the worst of the lich cliches.

Psyren
2012-08-13, 10:23 AM
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that undeads in D&D lose the "creative" part of their mind and basically stay frozen in whatever mentality they had at the moment of their transformation.

Not sure where you got that. Libris Mortis 13:


Beyond acrobatics, beyond theater, the Deathless Troupe has created an entirely original form of entertainment. Part theater, part opera, the troupe creates a world where anything is possible. For it is in the theater that the unliving try to understand their destiny.
—Ethana, proprietress of the Theater of the Dead

IIRC, only certain kinds of ghosts get stuck in the sort of mental loops you describe. Most mindless undead have no personality left to freeze at all, while intelligent undead are free to pursue all manner of pursuits, from the elaborate to the decadent, from the capricious to the cruel.

Lapak
2012-08-13, 10:35 AM
I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that undeads in D&D lose the "creative" part of their mind and basically stay frozen in whatever mentality they had at the moment of their transformation.

Yours is still a good idea, only it would make for a much more tragic figure since the artist would find himself permanently out of ideas, only able to recycle the art he has already done but unable to create anything truly unique or new.You're probably linking up 'liches in general' with 'Darklord Azalin of Darkon' from the Ravenloft setting. His ironic curse from the Dark Powers is that he is unable to learn new spells or knowledge of any type. But it is specific to him, not liches in general.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-13, 10:59 AM
Not sure where you got that. Libris Mortis 13:



IIRC, only certain kinds of ghosts get stuck in the sort of mental loops you describe. Most mindless undead have no personality left to freeze at all, while intelligent undead are free to pursue all manner of pursuits, from the elaborate to the decadent, from the capricious to the cruel.

Strange, I could have sworn that I read it in the Libris Mortis itself, in the section dedicated to undead psychology.

Maybe I'm getting confused with some setting-specific information.

BRC
2012-08-13, 11:10 AM
Strange, I could have sworn that I read it in the Libris Mortis itself, in the section dedicated to undead psychology.

Maybe I'm getting confused with some setting-specific information.

That might be true for some Undead. Ghosts or undead soldiers, forever stuck fighting the war that killed them.

That said, I could imagine a Lich as the ultimate Diplomat/Mediator. He lives in his dark castle until people come and request he help end some conflict. When that happens, he teleports in and tries to get the parties in question to make peace. Highly Intelligent, he is capable of quickly sizing up the situation. Charismatic, he can make his voice heard. If peace talks break down, he can nonlethally restore order with Hold Person spells, and if worst comes to worst and he is destroyed, he will simply reform at his phylactery.
He is the ultimate in impartiality. Any nation he may have held loyalty to is long gone. He can't be bribed or coerced, and he probably negotiated the last treaty between your two nations several hundred years ago.

Analytica
2012-08-13, 11:17 AM
I like the idea of someone who became a lich just to live forever, maybe to be able to keep on sampling the magical and artistic developments of the world. They had to do some evil things to get there, and did them anyway, making them evil by choice when their back is to the wall. They also are now powered by negative energy, so empathy might no longer come as an instinct or spontaneously. So again, evil alignment. However, intellectually the lich is benevolent and wants to minimize damage done at all times. Someone who can't feel guilt or shame or compassion, but takes pride in attempting to act as though they could. Still undead, served by other undead and prone to necromantic atrocities and overkill when enraged or in danger, but always try to reason first and pick up the pieces afterwards. Keeps away from mortal relatives to avoid hurting them. Travels incognito, pretending to be just a little old lady or something.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-13, 11:30 AM
Strange, I could have sworn that I read it in the Libris Mortis itself, in the section dedicated to undead psychology.

Maybe I'm getting confused with some setting-specific information.

This is what is says on Page 12 of Libris Mortis:


Aside from a rare few exceptions, an undead’s
outlook remains stagnant over the decades, or centuries, of
its existence, despite new experiences and new situations it
may encounter.

And then a page later, talks about that undead theater troupe. So either said troupe is one of the rare exceptions, or we default to the standard 'WotC has no idea what it's talking about'.

Tyndmyr
2012-08-13, 11:42 AM
Well, outlook isn't quite the same as knowledge and skills.

I can keep creating new songs, while still holding more or less the same outlook on life, society, whatever.

The Glyphstone
2012-08-13, 11:50 AM
The immediate preceding sentence does say "Life means change, and while undead endure over time and learn new facts, they rarely change or appreciate
new paradigms."

So I guess it's ambiguous. An undead songwriter could keep making new songs, but they'd be frozen in the mindset they had when they died - each new song would be very similar, if not identical, in rhythm/tempo to all the others he made, or altered versions of songs created before death. A painter might be able to learn and use a new painting technique, but his style would remain the same - a lich who painted Cubist art, say, would never start producing Impressionist style paintings...he might switch from oils to watercolors, but all his art would end up looking the same.

Zale
2012-08-13, 01:46 PM
Vol is female...

Doesn't ring a bell.


I like the idea of someone who became a lich just to live forever, maybe to be able to keep on sampling the magical and artistic developments of the world. They had to do some evil things to get there, and did them anyway, making them evil by choice when their back is to the wall. They also are now powered by negative energy, so empathy might no longer come as an instinct or spontaneously. So again, evil alignment. However, intellectually the lich is benevolent and wants to minimize damage done at all times. Someone who can't feel guilt or shame or compassion, but takes pride in attempting to act as though they could. Still undead, served by other undead and prone to necromantic atrocities and overkill when enraged or in danger, but always try to reason first and pick up the pieces afterwards. Keeps away from mortal relatives to avoid hurting them. Travels incognito, pretending to be just a little old lady or something.

This reminds me of that Ravenloft character. The Vampire.

Sure, he may be an evil abomination that profanes all that is good, but it doesn't mean he isn't honorable or civilized.

nedz
2012-08-13, 03:52 PM
The immediate preceding sentence does say "Life means change, and while undead endure over time and learn new facts, they rarely change or appreciate
new paradigms."

So I guess it's ambiguous. An undead songwriter could keep making new songs, but they'd be frozen in the mindset they had when they died - each new song would be very similar, if not identical, in rhythm/tempo to all the others he made, or altered versions of songs created before death. A painter might be able to learn and use a new painting technique, but his style would remain the same - a lich who painted Cubist art, say, would never start producing Impressionist style paintings...he might switch from oils to watercolors, but all his art would end up looking the same.

So Stock, Aitken and Waterman are Liches :smallbiggrin:
That's an interesting plot-line I suppose.

headwarpage
2012-08-13, 04:17 PM
The undead mother-in-law.

Since she didn't get any grandchildren during her natural lifetime, she decided she had to extend it. Now she spends all her time as the overbearing matriarch of a horde of descendants, nagging her great-great-great-great-granddaughter to stop playing at being a hero and find a nice man to settle down with.

Silus
2012-08-13, 04:18 PM
So here's what we're gonna do. First, we take a Paladin order charged with guarding some holy relic or holy site. Then we're gonna turn the whole order into Liches with their Phylactery being something either horribly mundane (like one of the floor tiles in the old restrooms or something easily overlooked by invaders) or somehow tie all their souls to the Holy Artifact that they're guarding.

Imagine having to fight through like 200+ Lich lvl 11+ Paladins.

Psyren
2012-08-13, 06:36 PM
Imagine having to fight through like 200+ Lich lvl 11+ Paladins.

15+ actually, unless they all took Practiced Caster.

Silus
2012-08-13, 06:40 PM
15+ actually, unless they all took Practiced Caster.

Fair point. Makes things a bit more crazy =D

Manly Man
2012-08-13, 06:51 PM
Even better if they're Swords of the Arcane Order.

A female lich who uses magic and intuition to help resolve romantic dilemmas amongst nobles and royalty, and without mind-control or force.

A lich who, as a dedicated botanist and gardener, had made a breakthrough and discovered a way to make a tree that grew an all-new fruit, one that could be the sort of thing to end world hunger. Unfortunately, he would not live to see the day when his plan would, no pun intended, come to fruition. Because he could only trust himself to make sure the tree grew high and mighty and produced this delectable fruit, he resorted to lichdom so as to make sure everything went as it was intended.

Silva Stormrage
2012-08-13, 07:59 PM
Somewhat an "Evil Overlord" type lich but I had a player become a lich and serve my actual BBEG which was a necromancy focused Favored Soul//Sorcerer Gish. He wanted to work with the BBEG and get close to him so he could usurp him when he was weak. The players ended up fighting his character multiple times as a boss and died pretty much every time. End result of his schemings was ascending to god hood and taking over the multi universe after the players failed to stop him ascending.

NichG
2012-08-13, 11:39 PM
A Druid-lich who saw a forest burned down/destroyed in some very corrupting way, and took the first steps to repopulate the area. She wanted to be there when the forest was once again whole. Now, she advises people on the long-term consequences of their actions - an unliving climate record for the world.

Someone who fell in love with the idea of unlife due to a painful and constant degenerative illness that magic could not treat. They severed the sensations of life so they would no longer have to suffer, and could in their own way have the will to live (exist) once again.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-14, 09:25 AM
The immediate preceding sentence does say "Life means change, and while undead endure over time and learn new facts, they rarely change or appreciate
new paradigms."

So I guess it's ambiguous. An undead songwriter could keep making new songs, but they'd be frozen in the mindset they had when they died - each new song would be very similar, if not identical, in rhythm/tempo to all the others he made, or altered versions of songs created before death. A painter might be able to learn and use a new painting technique, but his style would remain the same - a lich who painted Cubist art, say, would never start producing Impressionist style paintings...he might switch from oils to watercolors, but all his art would end up looking the same.

Yes, this is how I interpreted it.
It also makes the undead a bit more interesting, in my opinion.
Because that way being undead actually has flaws, important, dramatic flaws.
Let's face it, in D&D and many other settings the only thing that should keep the character from becoming an undead is "because it's an evil thing to do". And even that's not always true.

Why shouldn't pretty much anyone that can affort it want to become a Necropolitan? A bit of magic and you even get to stay fresh and attractive your whole existence, if the idea of becoming a desecated corpse turns you off.

The idea that life as an undead... or unlife if you will, is being imprisoned in a mindset unable to change, forever unable to truly enjoy life and doomed to se everything you know change around you without the chance for your mind to adapt is pretty frightening to me!

Silva Stormrage
2012-08-14, 01:15 PM
Yes, this is how I interpreted it.
It also makes the undead a bit more interesting, in my opinion.
Because that way being undead actually has flaws, important, dramatic flaws.
Let's face it, in D&D and many other settings the only thing that should keep the character from becoming an undead is "because it's an evil thing to do". And even that's not always true.

Why shouldn't pretty much anyone that can affort it want to become a Necropolitan? A bit of magic and you even get to stay fresh and attractive your whole existence, if the idea of becoming a desecated corpse turns you off.

The idea that life as an undead... or unlife if you will, is being imprisoned in a mindset unable to change, forever unable to truly enjoy life and doomed to se everything you know change around you without the chance for your mind to adapt is pretty frightening to me!

I never used that interpretation with Undead. It always seemed a bit odd to me, why would turning yourself undead make you impossible to change? Your soul is still there and you learn new facts and experiences.

And there are plenty of reasons why someone would not want to become undead.
1: Can no longer taste food, enjoy sex, feel warmth/cold. A lot of the pleasures of living go away.
2: Can't find a necromancer to trust. Why wouldn't someone who animates dead just keep you under mental control?
3: There are plenty of ways for immortality that DON'T involve sacrificing your organs. Immortality Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0)

Lapak
2012-08-14, 01:39 PM
I never used that interpretation with Undead. It always seemed a bit odd to me, why would turning yourself undead make you impossible to change? Your soul is still there and you learn new facts and experiences. Well, let's turn this one on its head for a moment. Instead of 'why would becoming undead make you resistant to change,' ask 'what kind of soul would become undead in the first place?'

We're talking about worlds with a verifiable afterlife for the most part, one that's tailored to the ideals and allegiances you held in life, so it's not even oblivion that is being opposed. It's just a particular mode of being. Isn't clinging to material existence through undeath the ultimate expression of resistance to change? Even if you're (say) embracing lich-dom in order to guard your kingdom against outside invaders - isn't that preventing change?

Voluntarily assuming undeath is a choice that binds you to stasis of your own free will. Never again will you grow new hair, build new skin, create living offspring. The kind of mind and soul that would accept this isn't one that NEEDS to have an outside influence keep it from adopting a new mindset - it has already decided that it would rather keep what it has.

BRC
2012-08-14, 01:51 PM
OR, consider the way living people respond to new ideas and technologies. The famous Grandfather who complains that kids have it too easy these days with their cellphones and not having to walk uphill to school in the snow.
Their values were set, let's say, fifty years ago, and they are slow to change.

Now, imagine if those values were set centuries ago.

I am now imagining Racist-Grandpa Lich, who dosn't realize 1: That calling a dwarf a "RockChipper" was highly offensive three hundred years ago (When that's what they all called Dwarves). 2: That people stopped using the term two hundred years ago. And 3: That today it is basically meaningless.

Racist-Grandpa Lich also dislikes these newfangled "Crossbows" that people keep bringing into his lair, complains that you can't find a good jar of Orphan's Blood anymore, and states that they don't make sacrificial alters like they used to.

What's going on with this skulls and spikes nonsense? Why, when I was barely dead, me and Skath-Klegall would hike up to the mountains for a week and find ourselves a good chunk of Obsidian, which we would Stone Shape into something nice and servicable. We'd swing by the Covenant of the Dark Sisterhood and reinforce their wards while Sister Veshna inscribed the alter with words of the Dark Speech. That was a REAL alter, none of this silly nonsense you kids have today!

Ravens_cry
2012-08-14, 04:53 PM
I've talked about this before, but something about it makes me want to do it.
A Lich, an Elan and an Awakened Golem meet every century or so to just talk and have tea together. With widely differing alignments, the Lich is a curmudgeonly dirty old man, the Elan a dry wit, and the golem is a wise innocent.
The Lich's phylactery is the tea set they use. Makes it so it can't accidentally break. Eternity is a long time after all.
Once they were enemies, but now time and familiarity has made them friends. It doesn't matter what they are doing or where they are, they will make the tea party. If one of them is in danger of dying forever, they will rush to that ones aid.
Because, in the end, they are friends.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-14, 04:53 PM
Well, let's turn this one on its head for a moment. Instead of 'why would becoming undead make you resistant to change,' ask 'what kind of soul would become undead in the first place?'

We're talking about worlds with a verifiable afterlife for the most part, one that's tailored to the ideals and allegiances you held in life, so it's not even oblivion that is being opposed. It's just a particular mode of being. Isn't clinging to material existence through undeath the ultimate expression of resistance to change? Even if you're (say) embracing lich-dom in order to guard your kingdom against outside invaders - isn't that preventing change?

Voluntarily assuming undeath is a choice that binds you to stasis of your own free will. Never again will you grow new hair, build new skin, create living offspring. The kind of mind and soul that would accept this isn't one that NEEDS to have an outside influence keep it from adopting a new mindset - it has already decided that it would rather keep what it has.

This is a pretty good argument and I agree.

Also, about the "you can't have sex, taste food, etc...".... Well, you can. There's plenty of magic for that, but even without it, there are some kinds of undead that clearly are still able to feed and even have sex, like vampires.
And do I need to remind you that there is a feat called "lich lover"?:smalltongue:

The Glyphstone
2012-08-14, 04:59 PM
This is a pretty good argument and I agree.

Also, about the "you can't have sex, taste food, etc...".... Well, you can. There's plenty of magic for that, but even without it, there are some kinds of undead that clearly are still able to feed and even have sex, like vampires.
And do I need to remind you that there is a feat called "lich lover"?:smalltongue:

Which, ironically, only gives you bonuses versus mindless undead, so it should be called 'Zombie-loved'. :)

nedz
2012-08-14, 05:18 PM
OR, consider the way living people respond to new ideas and technologies. The famous Grandfather who complains that kids have it too easy these days with their cellphones and not having to walk uphill to school in the snow.
Their values were set, let's say, fifty years ago, and they are slow to change.

Now, imagine if those values were set centuries ago.

I am now imagining Racist-Grandpa Lich, who dosn't realize 1: That calling a dwarf a "RockChipper" was highly offensive three hundred years ago (When that's what they all called Dwarves). 2: That people stopped using the term two hundred years ago. And 3: That today it is basically meaningless.

Racist-Grandpa Lich also dislikes these newfangled "Crossbows" that people keep bringing into his lair, complains that you can't find a good jar of Orphan's Blood anymore, and states that they don't make sacrificial alters like they used to.

What's going on with this skulls and spikes nonsense? Why, when I was barely dead, me and Skath-Klegall would hike up to the mountains for a week and find ourselves a good chunk of Obsidian, which we would Stone Shape into something nice and servicable. We'd swing by the Covenant of the Dark Sisterhood and reinforce their wards while Sister Veshna inscribed the alter with words of the Dark Speech. That was a REAL alter, none of this silly nonsense you kids have today!

This is very cute, but you are comparing a world in the midst of rapid cultural change with a multiverse where many worlds and planes are connected in an unchanging manner. I'm not sure that the same idioms would apply, except that art reflects the society it is made in I suppose, but then - that is the box.

Lapak
2012-08-14, 07:26 PM
Also, about the "you can't have sex, taste food, etc...".... Well, you can. There's plenty of magic for that, but even without it, there are some kinds of undead that clearly are still able to feed and even have sex, like vampires.
And do I need to remind you that there is a feat called "lich lover"?:smalltongue:I didn't mention any of those things in my post? :smallconfused:

QuidEst
2012-08-14, 08:09 PM
Well, take a stock evil overlord lich, then put that back a few centuries. He ruled for a while, but eventually got tired of it. It made no difference how he ruled- regardless of taxes, policies, festivals, or public works, the people would be in constant uprising against the "deathless tyrant." The fake phylacteries had to be replaced every other week, the peasants would side with any invader, and his palace guard was only staffed because it provided freedom fighters with a chance to try and learn his weaknesses. Using undead guards only made the problems worse, naturally, and so he faked his permanent death, and is now left with an eternity that he'd planned on using to rule an empire.

As for what to do with him after that, I think he'd become something of a researcher, travelling the world and/or planes, discovering new spells, seeking out sphinxes and other such knowledgeable creatures, and other such things.

Manly Man
2012-08-14, 09:41 PM
^ This sounds reasonable.

I'd made another one that was a librarian, managing a massive collection of books and other writings that outdated even the lich watching it. He was a bit uptight, but otherwise welcoming, although he didn't appreciate loud noise much, and gods help you if he caught you so much as dog-earing a page.

Kalmageddon
2012-08-15, 05:10 AM
I didn't mention any of those things in my post? :smallconfused:

The second part of my post was for Silva Stormrage. :smallsmile:

Lapak
2012-08-15, 11:38 AM
The second part of my post was for Silva Stormrage. :smallsmile:Ah, my mistake. Sorry!

Hyena
2012-08-15, 02:29 PM
You all forget one little thing - one can not simply lich into immortality. To become self-resurrecting skeleton you need to perform a ritual, which is usually described as human sacrfice, so it counts as a moral event horizon.

White Blade
2012-08-15, 03:23 PM
A long vendetta against an immortal or almost immortal foe (such as a pit Fiend or dragon) might drive one to seek out lichdom to undo the creature. Alternatively, you might wish to preserve the souls of the wisest and mightiest kings (or at least their bodies and speak with dead) to preserve their wisdom for successive generations. Perhaps you seek the restoration of a people. Perhaps you are simply an ancient grandfather, watching out for his descendants. Maybe you swore a senseless oath to obtain all knowledge, but cannot bring yourself to break it.

Or perhaps you await the day of glory, longing to see the dawn of light of which the prophets spoke.

NichG
2012-08-15, 03:58 PM
You all forget one little thing - one can not simply lich into immortality. To become self-resurrecting skeleton you need to perform a ritual, which is usually described as human sacrfice, so it counts as a moral event horizon.

There's really nothing saying that has to dominate the lich's current behavior though. You get a lot of reformed X or Y stories even in a human's normal lifespan. Multiply that by ten and its really hard to say if anything of the personality that became the lich originally should remain (aside from the unchanging undead argument).

Heck, I've seen a number of pragmatic-type characters who would just go ahead and use someone the party would 'heroically kill' for such a ritual: bandits, villains, etc. Its still reprehensible and they might well detect as evil afterwards, but from their point of view it'd just be avoiding the waste of a perfectly good death.

A moral event horizon is more a viewer concept, the idea that once the audience has seen a character cross a certain line, they won't accept any story of that character's redemption. Its hard to have one if the central event took place offscreen, which can be used to redeem the unredeemable, story-wise.

Forte
2012-08-15, 04:39 PM
How about a lich that is a lich because of an accident or curse and never wanted it in the first place. He may or may not even know what his phylactory is and has no way to destroy himself. To make things worse, over time more and more undead creatures gravitated toward him, causing all sorts of problems for the people who live near him. The adventurers find him at the top of a tower after fighting through throngs of undead soldiers just to find him moping about with no clue about the zombie hordes you're talking about.

A lich version of Eeyore basically.

Psyren
2012-08-15, 04:58 PM
We're talking about worlds with a verifiable afterlife for the most part, one that's tailored to the ideals and allegiances you held in life, so it's not even oblivion that is being opposed. It's just a particular mode of being.

You forget that the evil afterlives, no matter how tailored they may be to your way of thinking, are still extremely sucky places to end up. To quote Xykon, "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

The very first thing that happens to you in TA or T9H is they begin to strip every semblance of your identity away through eons of particularly nasty and inventive tortures. Only a very select few souls get to avoid that; and when you consider that the souls canny enough to prove themselves above that fate are likely the ones that found a way to cheat death on this side of the divide, that slim percentage grows even slimmer.

Manly Man
2012-08-15, 06:37 PM
You all forget one little thing - one can not simply lich into immortality. To become self-resurrecting skeleton you need to perform a ritual, which is usually described as human sacrfice, so it counts as a moral event horizon.

As NichG has said, and atop that, they never specify what exactly the act is. It's left ambiguous intentionally, though I imagine it's done so for the sake of leaving it up to the DM to decide what exactly goes on, but still. Even then, in the editions where it is described specifically, there is little to be considered evil about the process of becoming a lich, save becoming an undead being, which even then is not evil so much as it is just associated with the Negative Energy Plane.

Besides, they've even got official rules on being a good lich. What else do you need to entertain the idea of one who at least isn't puppy-eating evil and do something other than merely seek out power or rain destruction?

Also, the imagery for an Eeyore lich is hilarious.

Lapak
2012-08-15, 10:22 PM
You forget that the evil afterlives, no matter how tailored they may be to your way of thinking, are still extremely sucky places to end up. To quote Xykon, "anything to avoid the Big Fire Below."

The very first thing that happens to you in TA or T9H is they begin to strip every semblance of your identity away through eons of particularly nasty and inventive tortures. Only a very select few souls get to avoid that; and when you consider that the souls canny enough to prove themselves above that fate are likely the ones that found a way to cheat death on this side of the divide, that slim percentage grows even slimmer.One belief that a lot of Evil folks seem to hold in common is that they ARE the fraction-of-a-fraction that are clever enough or cruel enough or strong enough to come out on top. The reason that they get slotted into the conquer-or-be-conquered afterlife in the first place is that they think of themselves as the destined conquerors. Xykon is a typical lich in this regard - he prioritizes 'anything to avoid the Fire Below' because he sees existence on the Material Plane as the path to power - a less static villain might see a one-way trip to the Nine Hells as an opportunity to gain the power of a Pit Lord and rule over thousands of devils and millions of souls. It's still something to be avoided if possible, to be sure, but existence as a very vital demon might well be seen as preferable to the slow decay of undeath, and a chance to gain power and resources that are otherwise beyond reach.

Obviously, this is not the case for most of them, but I see this kind of self-image as part of parcel of the Evil outlook for people of power. (And the lowly Evil types don't have the option of lichhood at all, so they're irrelevant for this topic.)

Doc_Pippin
2012-08-16, 01:02 AM
I had an NPC Lich who was at one time an Illithid slave. He had almost been made a meal for his owner when a group of adventures (My group) swooped in and killed the Master. Eventually the group travelled to a demi-plane with a distorted time and ened up coming back roughly 500 years later while only feeling a week pass. So as they travelled the underdark they encountered an abnormal amount of undead. Turns out the Slave they freed was one to hold a grudge and he took upon lich-dom so he could 1. Be immune to the Illithid's powers 2. Mass an undead army to kill all the Illithids because hey whats a Mindflayer going to do to a mindless army? And 3. Continue his anti-illithid crusade for as long as it took to rid the world of ALL Illithid's. He was both hero and villian because be was raiding the cities of the underdark for more "recruits" but he often sided with the PC's when thier goals aligned to his own.

Doc_Pippin
2012-08-16, 01:16 AM
Sorry Double post

Manly Man
2012-08-16, 03:34 AM
I less-than-three alhoons.

Psyren
2012-08-16, 08:49 AM
One belief that a lot of Evil folks seem to hold in common is that they ARE the fraction-of-a-fraction that are clever enough or cruel enough or strong enough to come out on top. The reason that they get slotted into the conquer-or-be-conquered afterlife in the first place is that they think of themselves as the destined conquerors. Xykon is a typical lich in this regard - he prioritizes 'anything to avoid the Fire Below' because he sees existence on the Material Plane as the path to power - a less static villain might see a one-way trip to the Nine Hells as an opportunity to gain the power of a Pit Lord and rule over thousands of devils and millions of souls. It's still something to be avoided if possible, to be sure, but existence as a very vital demon might well be seen as preferable to the slow decay of undeath, and a chance to gain power and resources that are otherwise beyond reach.

Obviously, this is not the case for most of them, but I see this kind of self-image as part of parcel of the Evil outlook for people of power. (And the lowly Evil types don't have the option of lichhood at all, so they're irrelevant for this topic.)

I think this attitude is much rarer than you seem to. The vast majority of evil folks want to stick around as long as possible; if they thought hell would be an awesome den of iniquity where they could join the annals of badassery for eternity, there'd be a lot more evil folks trying to kill themselves or otherwise get there asap. They wouldn't even have the suicide taboo to get in their way since that would just speed up their passage/reward.

No, the majority evildoers who think about hell at all see it as a place to be avoided. They delude themselves into thinking they won't end up there (whether because they don't think they're evil at all, or because they believe they've found a loophole/have a shot at immortality) but the "rule in hell" ideal is rarer than those other two by far.

Look at evil clerics - if this attitude were common, they would be eager to die and sit at their god's feet. Instead, they know perhaps better than anyone how much of a prick their deity truly is. Banites and Talosite are in no hurry to hang out with their god, because they know that the best reward they can hope to get by abandoning their earthly mission is a brief You Have Failed Me (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YouHaveFailedMe) followed by oblivion - if they're lucky.

Whybird
2012-08-16, 01:06 PM
A freedom-fighter lich, rebelling against the tyranny of the Raven Queen. It is unfair and unjust that everybody he loves dies; a compassionate god of death would allow people to leave the land of the living only when they're good and ready. He intends to fight his way to the foot of her throne, steal the secret of eternal life away from her, and distribute it freely among the masses. He wants a sensible, benevolent afterlife, where everybody gets what they like and nobody has to be hurled into any burning pits of anything. And by all the gods, he's going to fight his way through as many so-called "heroes" as he has to if that's what it takes to achieve it. Because he knows they'll thank him for it in the end, when they're comfortably sipping cocktails in their new, perfect, immortal bodies.

Manly Man
2012-08-18, 06:26 PM
A coven of liches who work together and formulate a plan to thwart the rise of an evil dragon to divine status.

Randrew
2012-08-18, 08:56 PM
An NPC in the game I run became a lich in order to not die when marooned on a desert island.

Of course, then he was just immortal and marooned. Attempts to escape resulted in him being crushed by the pressure of the sea and his spellbook was destroyed by inclement weather.

Lord_Gareth
2012-08-18, 11:39 PM
An immortal council of liches advises the rulers of the city of Dusk, a shining temple-city made entirely out of crystal that drinks in shadows and exudes light. This council (The Twilight Council), made entirely of clerics who were granted the knowledge of lichdom by their deity, serves both as the first line of defense for Dusk and as a body of wisdom for the changeable body of living rulers (the Dawn Council). The Twilight Council holds authority over the undead inhabitants of Dusk, ensuring that they are provided for, represented, and do not prey upon the living (Dusk imports much livestock to slake the hunger of its unliving inhabitants and raises many more) and the Dawn Council represents the living in their turn. Ruled this way for nearly two hundred years, Dusk has become a center of culture, learning, and trade and is the envy of all of its neighbors.

Of course, there is the slight contentious issue of the one period - about a week or so, every fifty years - when members of the Twilight Council are by tradition considered fair game for any of their subordinates who wish to replace them. All the underling must do is either force the Councilor to surrender...or assassinate them. Thankfully, none of the resulting magical duels have destroyed the city. Yet.

Kalirren
2012-08-19, 01:49 AM
My favorite concepts for liches...

1) A lich who walks around all the world's cities and gets paid to suck all the life out of the sewers. They're the world's most epic janitor, nearly everyone likes them for what they do, and they make sport of destroying potential competition. (Read: Other liches.)

2) The Lich's Five-Step Plan to Godhood:

Step 1: Train a bunch of mages under the condition of apprenticeship that they make continual lights for you, one per year. Allow them to train mages under the same condition of apprenticeship.
Step 2: Collect an astronomical number of such lights. (This is where being a Lich comes in. You have to be able to wait for your many, many apprentices to fabricate a truly astronomical number.)
Step 3: Mount all these lights to a round disk.
Step 4: Nail the disk To The Sky, and create the world's first artificial moon.
Step 5: Attain godhood through widespread worship of your deed.

Your portfolio would be of the cosmos, spellcasters, undeath, artifice, and the long plan. Not a bad deal, really.

lyko555
2012-08-19, 06:03 PM
my favoricte pc turned npc lich was named vonmises he started out as a dread necromancer. He was a really nice guy with some very odd world views and was unanimously voted the nicest guy out of the rest of the "chaotic good squad of murderous hobos that were his party " even tho he was solidly neutral.
he and a fellow pc fell in love through the campaign and then they both died to an enemy cleric casting destruction their ashes even landed in the same square. His gf was a powerful magic entity "spell-fire wielding mage" and she came back as a ghost. so later on when the party abandoned his trapped bag of holdings full of undead monstrosities, with a lich. The lich had him resserected via his pinkie toe that he had left in his bags along with the ingredients for the true rez.
Von then shortcut his path into becoming a lich so he could exist with his ghost love forever.

Hal
2012-08-21, 07:19 PM
This isn't necessarily "outside the box," but I'm using a lich as the primary antagonist of my setting, so it's as good an excuse as any to discuss his plans.

The lich has discovered that a mountain he was trapped within is actually the long-resting corpse of a primordial. He intends to raise or inhabit this body, at which point he's going to . . . well, that I'm not sure about yet.

One version of this is him taking his new god-like powers to release the Chained God, who would be sealed away at the very depths of the Abyss.

Since this is the 4e cosmology, the Abyss was supposedly created when Tharizdun used "a shard of pure evil" to tear a rift in the Elemental Chaos, creating the Abyss. The lich is going to use his primordial body to take that shard for himself, collapsing the Abyss and making him even more powerful in the process.

As my players aren't yet into epic tier, I have time to consider the lich's goals.

Salbazier
2012-08-22, 06:20 AM
Since I made this thread, I may as well weigh in with my own, huh? (btw, GodGoblin and Gettles, love your ideas)

So, my lich did it all for love. The woman he loved died suddenly, so of course, what do you do in these situations? You make a deal with the devil to bring her back. The cost? His soul.

And of course he didn't read the fine print, as the devil brought his lover back... as a zombie. As, in my setting, dead is dead. No resurrection.

So, after the soon-to-be lich kills the zombie (after all, what choice does he have?), he looks into ways to safeguard his soul. After all, the devil cheated him, so he might as well cheat the devil right back! So, naturally, as you do, he became a lich.

After several decades of research, he discovered that yeah, there's no way to bring the dead properly back to life.

I'm treating him as a very tragic hero. He's got an eternity and nobody to spend it with. so he might as well do some good before some over-zealous paladin puts him down.

That's a cool concept (I'm sucker for hero-with-tragic-fate-but-still-do-good-anyway types).

An old idea of mine, from before I know D&D (I think) so not rule-exact lich.

Said lich is a variant of stronger lich, called Lich Lord. He was originally a normal, young, talented human mage student. A ancient lich kidnapped him and forced him to serve as research assistant. He endured the hardship for years. Until one day he managed to pay back his master by sabotaging the lich's great dark ritual. Said lich destroyed by the backlash. Unfortunately for the mage, with the lich's destruction he became the focus point of the ritual instead and received all of its energy along with his former master's power that got caught in the flow. That turned him into a lich, and a stronger than normal one at that. As a lich lord his phylactery was the world itself thus he cannot be killed before the world's end. So he managed to have revenge and gain back his freedom, at the cost of eternal damnation.

He then decided to use the newly gained power to help fighting the army of darkness that at that time is invading his home country. Long short story, he managed to save his home country and his old friends' life but he had to reveal his lich state in the process. Afterward he left. Hiding his lichdom (and former identity) by powerful illusion, he wander the world doing good, especially protecting people against undead predation, ...as well as looking for a way to die.

His deed, inclduing and especially those during the war. Some people scorn him nonetheless. Some fear and praise him at the same time. Others consider him a true hero whose dark fate doesn't deter from doing what's right.

TLDR; Accidental lich that wander the world under guise, doing good and looking a for release from undeath.

Green Leviathan
2012-08-22, 11:32 AM
One idea I’ve been thinking of using for if/when I DM for my group. Said Lich is Millennia old, and during an extended period of boredom he decided that he would like to experience life again, but as a blank slate. He creates a three-fold spell that acts as a pseudo reincarnation spell, a new body that will be for all intents and purposes alive and real. The spell also wipes all his memory and experience and stores it within his phylactery. Lastly it teleports him within 10 miles of any random settlement with at least 10% of the population made up of his new race. When that body dies, his soul is sent to the phylactery and he adds his newly acquired memories to his old ones. Over the years of this he has become true neutral from seeing life from many different angles and view points.

I plan on the party meeting him in one of his reincarnation forms and playing it by ear from there.

edit: this might lead to some hilarity as he could theoretically become a paladin and try to destroy his own phylactery.

Doc_Pippin
2012-08-23, 07:01 PM
A few other interesting ideas ive had in the past for liches (I remembered while going through my old papers) The first followed the story of a woman who had little skill as a sorceress (lvl 2) but made a living as an alchemist assistant. She had a husband who was the local smithy and several children. But a series of events that included town raids, a draft for a war, and plagues not only robbed her of her children but of her ability to have more children. Her husband eventually left her to be with a woman capable of having his kids. (And in fact having any sexual contact, because the woman had been raped during the raids and was extermely skiddish about being touched) So in the end she had lost everything important in her life so she dived into a deep depression which eventually led to her fixating on her children being the only people who could bring her beloved back to her and setting the world as it was. Obviously she was delusional but she focused on Necromancy with the ferver of insanity and sought out and found all of her children bringing them back as undead and hiding the obvious changes from herself with illusions. She was fairly old by the time she had gotten all of her "Children" back and she set out to find her lost lover. She eventually did but he had past years earlier sick and penny-less due in part to his scheming second wife. She brought him back as well and turned to lichdom to be with her family for eterity and continues to delude herself into thinking her family is perfect and is content on keeping everything the way it is.

Another I remember being one of my player's favorite NPCs was a Noble Lich named Lord TaLa'im and his Apprentice and fellow Lich Tonkals. They appeared in there first quest, a rescue mission, as villanous liches trying to manipulate the Orcs who had kidnapped the princess. Of course they being 20+ lvls higher than the PCs were not involved in the combat what so ever. Instead they simplely left for what seemed like no real reason. They appeared again as the newest members of the royal court in a long forgotten city inhabited and ruled entirely by undead. They had been honored guests there for a few months when the PCs were sent there on a mission to retrieve an artifact (Which had long since been stone) for the king, (the same person who had sent them to save his daughter) In this encounter the Baron of the city a vampire lord tried to feed on the party but was quickly distracted when Lord TaLa'im sided surpisingly on the side of the PCs blasting him off the parties tank. During the fight that insued he saved them a few times but disappeared just before the fight was over. He appeared seven more times appearing good at times and evil at others. In the end they found out that the princess they had saved was a greater Doppleganger Mindbender who had complete control of the king via Permanent Domination. TaLa'im had been trying to stop it before its misson (It was a mercenary) to start multiple wars to weaken the kingdoms capable of stopping a demon invasion. As for TaLa'im's and Tonkals' backrounds they were the parties cleric and Necro focused wizard from the future (They absolutely loved it because both had talked in depth about taking on lichhood, and look on TaLa'im and Tonkals with child like admiration) They had gone back in time via the Teleport Through Time spell (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/pg/20030409b) They had changed thier names and worked in the shadows to avoid disturbing the time line to much and had needed lichdom to have enough time to aquire the power to cast the spell. It was a whole chain of "Oh I understand why things happened that way" discussions after that.

yougi
2012-08-24, 01:19 AM
I must admit I have not read all of the posts before, so sorry if some of these things have already been said. Masculine is used for simplification.

- He falls in love with a woman, only to discover she is a polymorphed medusa. He wants to bring her back to her true form, but wants to be able to stay with her. He therefore decides that unlife with her is better than life without her, and becomes a lich in order to resist his love's deadly gaze.

- His mother falls deadly sick while he is still a kid. He decides to become a cleric and heal those in need, so no other kid has to live through what he did. Through studies, he realizes his mother died of an incurable disease, and swears to find a cure. As he ages, he realizes his life won't be enough to fulfill his oath: lichdom becomes the only option.

- He is actually tricked into becoming a lich, and believes he is still alive and well. Multi-personality disorder maybe?

- A Lich of a spellcasting race (Naga, Drider, Bozak or Aurak Draconian or Dragonlance Dragonspawn?), or of a race rarely depicted as magic-using (Dwarves, Orcs, Goblins)

The first and third examples are from my games, although the latter is initially a Vampire, not a Lich. The idea still applies.

Eugenides
2012-08-24, 04:13 AM
What about the Lich that was basically an adventurer that gets caught up with some of the wrong people and then lich-ified basically for the purposes of the other people? We're talking Lord Vader, but with a Lich instead a suit that makes your voice awesome.

eepop
2012-08-24, 09:54 AM
Long ago a powerful king made himself and all his court into liches. In time, an invading army destroyed them all but one. The king and most of the others had chosen something audacious as their phylactery, a gold crown, a silver goblet, etc. All these items were melted down by the conquerors. The court jester however, had chosen a fairly mundane set of dice. When he reformed in a tent with a few sleeping conquerors, he managed to grab his dice and escape.

Once he had got to a safe distance, he decided he wanted to spend some time alone coming up with the worlds greatest joke. He tried for centuries at word play and came up with nothing. Finally, it came to him. The greatest joke was his existence.

Still not content to merely end it, he resolved himself to play this joke upon others. He learned the process to lich-ify others.

Now he periodically finds somewhat random people and turns them into liches. He ties them up and shows them clearly what their phylactery is. He then runs away with a cackle of laughter. He keeps a large collection of these phylacteries with him and keeps constantly on the move. He has become very attuned to the process of liches reforming near him, and uses the opportunity to set up all kinds of practical jokes on them.

There are currently dozens of liches he has created running around the world. Some of them accepted the lichdom and have just been trying to take advantage. Some plot for years, kill themselves, and try to get a hold of their phylactery after reforming so that they can end their tortured existence. Others yet once fell into that second group, but after being subject to one too many practical jokes have gone insane, terrorizing the area around where they reformed until they are destroyed, just to reform with the Jester-Lich in a new area and cause havoc again.

Notable sub-liches:
8 Year old kid who was the child of a couple of adventurers. At first they just thought their son had been kidnapped, but eventually they were reunited and he explained what had happened as best he could. The boy and his parents now hunt the lich as a team. Both to bring justice, and put the boy's destiny in his own hands. Suitable for a player party, can also add in older siblings as necessary to fill out the party.

Wife of a cleric of Pelor capable of quickened turning. The first time the cleric encountered his wife after the ritual, he turned her to dust before he could recognize her. Then he saw a locket he had given her in the dust and realized what had happened. He thought she had been turned into some lesser undead, but then a couple months later, he heard from some family in another area that they had seen her in their town. He still loves her, and is trying to find her to explain and hopefully find some ritual to undo this. She still loves him, but is convinced his zealotry for Pelor and destruction of undead was greater than his love for her, so she does all that she can to avoid him.

Guy who was about to attempt suicide when the Jester turned him. He was too stupid to really understand the nature of the phylactery, so he every time he reforms, he assumes he did something wrong and tries to commit suicide a different way.

A female archeologist who had made it her life's work to try to find evidence of <some culture> that she was sure existed, but there was no evidence for outside a few tales. Think Atlantis, etc. The lich was alive in the time period and general area the tales speak of, and he knows for sure that the culture did not exist. So he lichifies her, and leaves her with a note saying she is on the right track and leaves her false clues. He continues leaving a trail of false clues for her to follow across the world as he travels. He plans on eventually having a large structure and dungeon built to eventually lead her to, with a book at the end explaining to her all the false clues he has fed her, and that all that work had been for naught. Of course, he is going to let her keep looking for a few hundred years first.

There you go, five unconventional liches.

Analytica
2012-08-24, 03:33 PM
Hmmm... a group of a dozen hardened mercenary soldier gish liches, somewhere in the L11-L13 range. They fight for pay. Sometimes they die, in which case they eventually reform to show up in the pay of a new master somewhere else. Led by the Nameless One.

Asheram
2012-08-24, 04:31 PM
Writing this from my phone so might have missed this but have anyone posted the story about the awakened rat turned lich? That story still creeps me out.

Edit. Found it! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55087)

toapat
2012-08-24, 09:17 PM
15+ actually, unless they all took Practiced Caster.

They have to have Practiced spellcaster to be able to become a lich, Paladins only get 10th lvl spellcasting at lvl 20, lvl 14 is the minimum required for a paladin to become a lich with practiced spellcaster, lvl 22 without, lvl 18 with the first Mystic Fire Knight level.

still rather dangerous if you have a legion of Mystic Fire Knight Divine Spirit Paladins invade a place. (taking all 3 levels to negate the fact that you dont want the Silver Legion accidentally turning eachother)

Igneel
2012-08-29, 03:52 AM
I once made a Half-Sand Dragon Medusa Dry Lich with levels in a PrC (I forgot the name of it :smallredface:) for basically a worshiper of Io the 'father of dragons'. In practicality, she was aiming not only to continue guarding her father's land (the desert) but to continue the art of the 'Song of Io' which was fluff text for the PrC mentioned earlier. According to the PrC, only select few worshipers of members of dragon-type/dragonblood-type can hear this song that Io sang so many generations ago and are required to guide dragons/lesser dragon-types to these spheres of seclusion during times of need. Because of the dwindling numbers of member for the PrC in the world, she decided to go into lichdom to protect at least preserve the Song to eventually/hopefully teach it to others.

Being a medusa generally meant that she had a harder time around other dragon-types, much less possible comrades. So secluding herself to a few lairs spread through choice points of the cosmology (mainly anything with a desert) she hid her phylacteries accordingly to the best of her abilities (at least one on the inaccessible, save for herself and anyone she brings with her, demi-plane the PrC grants). She more or less passes the time sculpting and selling stone from hardened sand, or the occasional intruders seeking to slay her. Largely she liked selling petrified insects over actual humanoids.

Sadly the game died before we could start, but some of the other players thought it was an interesting idea.
... I just might try to bring her back in a new game.

Admiral Squish
2012-08-31, 05:57 PM
One thing I notice about a lot of liches is that they're always performing arcane experiments and learning and such, and generally keeping up with the times in terms of magic. But any ancient lich became a lich long before 'modern' magic would have existed. If you really think about it, in a D&D-like setting, magic is roughly analogous to technology. And a really old lich would probably struggle with updating their libraries, rituals, and spells, the same way middle-age and older people struggle to adapt to modern technology.

And then you take into account that the middle ages lasted only a few hundred years. Any thousand-year-old lich would have come from a culture far removed from anything we'd recognize as 'traditional' D&D.

enderlord99
2012-09-01, 01:43 PM
One that, instead of a phylactery, has several soul fragments that communicate telepathically with him and each other. They are a ghost, a spectre, a shadow, a wraith, and one each of any other incorporeal undead in the setting. The body (lich) and soul fragments (the rest) must all be destroyed within the same day; if even one is left, the rest regenerate at midnight.

Beelzebub1111
2012-09-01, 07:30 PM
A goblin Evoker who was Liched by surprise by his clan, because he was the smartest. He's REALLY bitter about it.

Incom
2012-09-02, 02:31 PM
The SRD says a lot of these don't work--for example, that liches can only be made from a willing subject... of course, plot supersedes rules. Just thought I'd mention it.

My addition? The Historian Lich.

He's old. He knows nearly every language. He was there when the first drow went underground. He witnessed the birth of the Tarrasque. He might even be the local equivalent of Adam.

Want to know how the horde of demons was defeated a thousand years ago and why they're returning? He knows, he helped out. What dark secret both powered and felled the ancient civilization? He knows, he was on the Senate. He acts aloof, but he does intervene in seemingly random events. Is he bored, or does he have a plot? Doesn't matter--you need his memory, and it is long indeed.

Why's he a lich? Maybe he did it out of anger--and maybe time has shown him such atrocities that his wrath was put into perspective. Maybe he did it out of greed--and the corpses of adventurers coming to seek his fortune have become his lieutenants. Maybe, millenia ago, he was a conqueror who ruled a thousand years--and, growing bored of having "won", decided to step back and let others try their hand at the game. Most likely, though, he did it for want of more knowledge--and over the years, he got more than he could possibly have desired.

Bonus freak-out-the-players points when you come upon something outside his expertise--something very old or Far Realmsy. Additional bonus points if he's hidden in plain sight as an NPC the characters have already met.

Chloe Seven
2012-09-02, 03:18 PM
A lich who turned undead so that they could learn all of the things- he (or she) has founded a library of arcane writings, and does allow people access, if they agree to help with (usually nonlethal) research, or contribute something of their own to it.

Though similar has been done before, I'm pretty sure.

Larloch! Though he's not one to share or collaborate.

Doesn't becoming a lich involve an evil alignment, and some evil acts during the ritual? I thought there were functionally similar (as in, immortal undead spellcaster) things for each alignment? Baelnorn or something, for one?

Manly Man
2012-09-03, 12:48 PM
According to current rules, yeah, you "have" to be evil to be a lich. Originally, a lich could be of any damn alignment he pleased, which is how I play them as. They even mention having liches that are good in at least two books, maybe more, and I know that in Libris Mortis they even give you the template for them.

A lich who believes in fair fights will always take those who appear to be just and good at his castle and teleport them to his chamber immediately, where he will have them wait until those who survive the expedition through his keep make it to him. He restores everyone to full health makes sure that, at least when they all start, that the playing field is level before striking, and even then, rather than kill them, if possible, merely beats them into submission and then forces them out in humiliation.

Beelzebub1111
2012-09-03, 01:58 PM
Liches (and all undead by proxy) are considered evil for two reasons

1) Evil Magic animates them.
2) As such, they should be affected by spells like Holy Smite, Holy Word, and Protection from Evil, regardless of how good or neutral they act.

Jothki
2012-09-03, 03:41 PM
I don't quite get Evil Overlord-style liches. You spend a whole bunch of time and effort and do a bunch of horrible things in order to not have to worry about death, and then you just go ahead and make a bunch of people want to kill you?

If you're that worried about dying, then you should be able to suck up your pride and play nice for a while. It can't be worse then what you've already had to do to get to this point.

KnightDisciple
2012-09-03, 04:09 PM
*snip*
You....you managed to make the Joker worse, by turning him into a Lich. :smalleek::smalleek:

I'm not sure if I should congratulate you or run for the hills. :smalleek: