How to build a good monk

[Taboggan]

I've really been wanting to try out a monk because i'm a martial artist and thought it would be fun to do. how would you build one because i've heard they're like glass cannons.

[Krazzman]

I've really been wanting to try out a monk because i'm a martial artist and thought it would be fun to do. how would you build one because i've heard they're like glass cannons.

It depends. Are you attached to the class like it must be the Monk? Or do you just want the flavour?

Either way, to play a good working unarmed fighter you have quite many possibilities, where as some are more fitting in certain instances of Low to high-op than other.

If you are interested: look up the following
Tashalatora (Psychic Warrior + Monk, mostly buffing yourself with Psionic Powers)
Unarmed Swordsage (IMHO my favourite for that [gets you maneuver + unarmed fighter feel] is a Swordsage variant displayed in the Tome of Battle)

Additionall ydo we speak about the 3.5 Monk or the Pathfinder Monk?

[ColossusCrusher]

Unfortunately the Monk class has some pretty big issues - Flurry is a full round when the rest of the class emphasizes hit-and-run, the class is multiple attribute dependant, can't use armor and weapons if you want the AC/speed bonus and unarmed strike damage, which means you can't get weapon enhancements (talk to your DM about using handwraps, but it's still not in the core).

If I had to build one I'd probably focus it on getting behind the tank line and grappling down enemy casters - when you need to pin a Wizard down and break their spine, Monks are actually really good at it. They just have a lot of baggage that makes them less effective.

If you have Tome of Battle I recommend you also look into the Unarmed Swordsage variant. It doesn't have all of the flavor of the Monk, but it comes pretty close and is significantly more useful due to Martial Maneuvers.

[ahenobarbi]

Generally Monk class is very weak. If you want to play a monk-like character (a character that fights without weapons, possibly ascetic/ spiritual) it's better to use another class (generally people advice using unarmed swordsage).

Or take some levels of monk (typically two) then switch to some other class[es] (depending on what you specifically want your character to do).

[Kansaschaser]

Question: How to build a good Monk?

Answer: Play a Swordsage.

:smallcool:

[Krazzman]

Question: How to build a good Monk?

Answer: Play a Swordsage It is possible but depends on your group and preferred power-level.

:smallcool:

Fixed that for you.
Edit: Sry, couldn't resist :smalltongue:

[Coidzor]

Swordsage? Not crazy enough.

Wildshaping Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order > Master of Many Forms + Snap Kick (and Superior Unarmed Strike)

There's also a wildshaping monk variant as well, I suppose... (Actually, this reminds me, how are Binders at "monking" it up?)

Anyway, now that it's out of the way, what do you want to actually be able to do and what are your source limitations?

[Gwendol]

If you want to play a Monk (the class) there are a few things to keep in mind:

Strength is very, very, important. You're not a full BAB class, yet are supposed to hit like one. Also, most of the special attacks (grappling, tripping, disarming) all benefit from really high strength.

Con: as high as you can, to compensate for the mediocre HD.

Dex: less important, but you still want it positive to increase AC, and to make better use of combat reflexes (for when you are large)

Wis: you will want to have this as high as your build allows, since stunning fist, AC, and whatnot comes from this.

Int and Cha you probably can't afford to keep high.

Increase in size: you want this to get reach, to grapple and trip better, and to do more damage

Because of the demands on high WIS it is meaningful to take levels of cleric or druid with your monk; you get access to various self-buffs, healing, and flanking partners.

Suggested feats: imp grapple, imp natural attack, imp trip, power attack, snap kick, combat reflexes.

Suggested races: human, goliath (counts as Large, but is monstrous which means enlarge person doesn't work), gray orc (+ to strength and wisdom)

Suggested classes: cleric, druid, barbarian (if the alignment restrictions can be waivered. Barb abilities actually meshes very well with the monk: fast movement, pounce, whirling frenzy).

[Coidzor]

Suggested classes: cleric, druid, barbarian (if the alignment restrictions can be waivered. Barb abilities actually meshes very well with the monk: fast movement, pounce, whirling frenzy).

Indeed, a Barbarian with Snap Kick, Whirling Frenzy, Pounce, and Superior Unarmed Strike "flurries" better than a monk does, if I"m remembering correctly. Also gets some interesting PrC options that synergize a bit better than mixing monk and cleric.

[Gwendol]

Yes, I wouldn't mind seeing a Barb/Monk/Bear warrior mix.

[GnomeGninjas]

Buy a monks belt.

[Krazzman]

Ok I'm going to throw this a bit further than needed but... wouldn't a clawlock be able to immulate a Monk at least for a little bit?

[The Glyphstone]

Sadly, 'monk builds' have an inverse relationship between # of monk levels and effectiveness. The best non-martial adept monks are those who dip a few levels in monk, then go into another class with Ascetic X or Talashatora feats.

[Zaq]

Monk 20, cross-class UMD, and partially charged wands.

For the love of all that is holy, don't actually do this.

[Telonius]

Happy Monkday, everybody.

Sacred Fist (CDiv) and Enlightened Fist (CArc) make for some interesting Prestige Class possibilities, if ToB or Psionics are not available. They're (primarily) Monk/Cleric and Monk/Wizard multiclass PRCs.

[Man on Fire]

Monk 6 + Drunken Master 2 + Psionic Fist 10 + Warshaper 2.

[gallagher]

Tattooed monk PrC gives you a personal form of haste and alter self. That can help make for a good scout. Monk/Cloistered Cleric/enlightened fist is a strong build as well, because it gives you access to things like divine strength and righteous might

[Togo]

If you want to play a monk, as in the character class from the PHb, a few points to consider.

First off, have a good hard look at stunning fist, and work out how important it really is to you. If the answer is not vital, then don't take it, and dump wis.

Prioritise Str, then Dex, then con, then int. Wisdom comes in the middle if you decide to use it. Human is good class because of the extra skill points and feat, but anything that's not small works well.

The next point comes to the two-weapon fighting chain. This is horribly horribly feat-dependent, and you should talk to your DM about replacing the whole chain with one feat. Combining this chain with the already poor monk class is going to get you into trouble.

Still, with two-weapon fighting and flurry, you're comfortably into three attacks a round at first level. Don't forget thrown weapons, particularly shuriken, which can be both two-weaponed, and flurried. The base damage is poor, so you're relying on Str to hurt people.

For skills you need tumble, and then you can take your preference of the rest, but I'd recommend balance, and stealth skills.

For feats, get imp grapple, and possibly imp trip. Deflect arrows is nice, but you're never going to meet only the one archer firing only the one arrow.

Your job in combat is go after the soft targets. Archers, wizards, mooks, etc. Get past the front line using tumble and jump, or sneak past it before the fight begins, and shut down their backline hard. Move and grapple followed by full attack flurry while in the grapple. You don't need to charge, since grapple is a touch attack to hit, so make the most of your agility. If you're fighting a Single big monster, don't engage. Use thrown weapons, and let the tougher members of the party take the hits.

The monk desperation tactic is to grapple the damage-dealing monster. Most monsters do less damage in a grapple than outside one, even those built for grappling, so you act as a tar baby while the rest of the party can heal up or finish the creature off. It's a very high risk tactic, but it can pay off for a well-coordinated group.

Best buffs are mage armour and enlarge person - giving you +5 to grapple and meaning you do much better damage. Greater magic fang is also a good all-day buff, and most druids have very few good 3rd level spells.

At higher levels you continue to get benefits. However, you may want to consider a prestige class. You biggest challenge will be that fighters are tougher and do more damage than you, so focus on your strengths - agility, targeting spellcasters and archers, grappling, and so on. Consider the mage slayer line of feats, blindfighting, and magic items that boost your attack and damage. I'd also give special mention to sandals of harmonius balance.

Monks aren't a very good class. You'll need a low or mid op game, and/or a DM willing to cut you some slack, in order to really get the best from it. If you can wangle an increase in starting stats, or a houserule on hand and foot wraps (allowing you to enchant your attacks as if they were weapons), or two weapon fighting, then go for it.

Just remember this isn't a martial artist class. You're not a fighter, you're a stealth debuffer. Get in, take the target down, don't try and go toe to toe with a giant or dragon.

[The Boz]

If this is for PF, I shall shamelessly self-promote: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13682151
If this is not for PF, you can still use it with a few very minor modifications.

[ericgrau]

I've really been wanting to try out a monk because i'm a martial artist and thought it would be fun to do. how would you build one because i've heard they're like glass cannons.

Not like a martial artist, unfortunately, unless you like weapons. In core you basically dash to the back line with a tumble and disable or wail on a back line target. Save unarmed strikes for stunning fist or grappling, otherwise you use a nice weapon such as a quarterstaff + shillelagh oil. Later you add on tripping, or in extremely humanoid heavy campaigns you add disarming. There are special monk weapons for these too. They work especially well with many attacks so you might want to add two weapon fighting for yet another attack if this becomes a focus (rather than grappling/stun focus). Potions of enlarge person help your modifier for these; at high levels you might want to get permanent enlarge person (e.g., permanency). If you fight a lot of big foes all this is harder but possible, due to their size modifiers. Potions of mage armor are also very helpful, or buffs from party casters in general. Any caster in core can target you. Some of the most successful core monks (yes, there are many) I've seen were major buff stackers and/or disable monkeys. Monk stats start low but they can stack more easily than others. They have a lower modifier on special attacks but they get more attempts which is key for disabling (especially vs. groups) and they actually deal damage while doing it unlike some builds that have a shiny modifier and no damage for things like grapple.

Monks get a lot of flak both for people who say "oh, kung fu" and try to use them unarmed then fail, and from high optimizers who find more splatbook options for other classes. If you dash in and flurry of punch things you're going to find your hits lacking and then your low defense is going to get you pounded in return. If your'e in a really high optimization group, a psychic warrior and certain feats and magic items might replace a lot of the major build goals. Those people dip 2 levels just for the feats and initial abilities.

Ability score priority should be str, con, dex, wis, int, cha for improved grapple. For stunning fist it's str, wis/con, con/wis, dex, int, cha. There are also people who ruin things by putting wis first, or wis then dex. Besides ruining every attack you ever make, even stuns don't work if you don't hit. If disarming is viable, which is uncommon, you might go weapon finesse for dex then wis. Good AC but kills your damage.

[eggs]

Monks' biggest problem is the same as most non-casters': The actions available to the class in a vacuum are essentially "walk around" and a few variations of "whack something." When whacking something isn't an effective solution to a problem, the class can only fall back onto a handful of skill ranks.

But those are problems with the class, not necessarily shared characters in the class. That's where the biggest part of building a nonmagical character for a magical game comes in: shopping lists.

Individual Monk characters can solve quite a few of the Monk class's problems by throwing money at them: a necklace of natural weapons and a pearl of power 3 for the monk's caster buddy can crank the monk's full round damage output fairly respectably; chronocharms of the horizon walker/belts of battle/anklets of translocation can deal with full-round mobility; another pearl of power 3 for the caster buddy can crank AC inexpensively with greater mage armor; phylacteries of change or proteus skins can give the monk some morphing abilities at higher levels; various magical alchemical items can give the monk a way to attack different saves and vulnerabilities than AC+HP+DR.

Having said that, Monk provides almost all of its worthwhile benefits in the first two levels. After that, it's usually just better to go elsewhere with the build - Assassin, various gishes/psigishes or the ToB classes all have potential and often don't swing too far from the Monk's fluff.

(There are also variants and alternate class features that make monk levels somewhat useful, especially if Dragon Magazine is available, but the good ones are often different enough to act as completely different classes.)

[Curmudgeon]

Many Monk issues can be addressed if you have enough gp to throw at the problem. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8389087&postcount=43) is my level 19 Monk suggestion when a DM wanted to create an effective opponent for their PCs.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

I'm now going to cast Wall of Text for your reading pleasure.

Monk has 3 standard levels that you can pull out at: 1, 2, and 6, the levels you obtain bonus feats. But with the addition of Heavy ACFs you can do it at more levels like: 4, 7, and 9. These all rely on the fact that you are taking ACFs to actually make your class better. And speaking of making your class better, don't forget to pick up a Necklace of Natural Attacks.

The pullouts at 1 and 2 involve your bonus feats. But you can make these first two levels of monk some of the best martial levels in the entire game by taking 'Martial Monk' (D310) along with the 'Invisible Fist' (EoE) ACFs. The 'Sacred Path of Wee Jas' (D346) ACF isn’t as good for a martial dip as ‘Martial Monk’ is, but works well for a monk’s Use Magic Device needs. You can then grab feats and items that increase your effective monk level to 20 and/or pick up Tashalatora with a Psionics Class.

The pullout at 6 involves your bonus feat at that level and the bonus ability you get if you chose a fighting style (Like the ones from UA or any number of Dragon Magazines). The feat choice at this level is a better for a ‘Martial Monk’ then it is for a Monk of Wee Jas but the ‘Sacred Path of Wee Jas’ adds half your monk level to Use Magic Device checks.

Now that the standards are out of the way here are the ones that ACFs are the only reason you should stop there.

This ACF you must take at level 1 but pays off at level 4. The 'Holy Monk' (D310) ACF. You trade your 1st and 6th level Bonus feats but gain Smite Evil, Aura of Courage and the kicker Turn Undead. The only reason you should be taking this. The reason for this is it lets you fuel the Feat 'Travel Devotion' from Complete Champion. With a 12 Cha and a single Nightstick you can get 5 uses of Travel Devotion. This will help fix the problem of you not being able to move and flurry at the same time. Note that when mixing this with the things mentioned above choose 'Sacred Path of Wee Jas' over 'Martial Monk' because you only get one bonus feat with this ACF. At this level you should also switch out your Ki Strike (Magic) for the Holy Strike ACF in Complete Champion.

From the Champions of Valor Web Enhancement there is a Substitution for Monks called Dark Moon Disciple. At 7th level you can trade out Wholeness of Body for an ability that gives you Total Concealment in shadowy areas. That is a much better ability then Wholeness of Body. The fluff of this Substitution Level may bring up some issue with the 'Sacred Path of Wee Jas' but RAW there isn't anything stopping you.

Now for the Pullout at 9th level. This one is for the second ability of the 'Invisible Fist' ACF. This one lets you put yourself under the effects of blink for as many rounds as 1 + your wis mod. Worth it.

Now for one final ACF: The 'Sidewinder Monk' (D331). This trades off most of your terrible class features for more 'social' ones and gives a sneak attack progression along with a rage like natural attack. Since this shifts back Ki Strike (Magic) by one level you would have to take Holy Strike at level 5.


I'm going to now put it all together.
Holy Dark Moon Disciple Sidewinder Invisible Fist of the Sacred Path of Wee Jas (Batman!)
{table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

1st|Monk|
+0|
+2|
+2|
+2|Skills|Travel Devotion|Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike, Smite Evil 1/day, Skill Bonus: Use Magic Device (+2)

2nd|Monk|
+1|
+3|
+3|
+3|Skills||Skill Focus: Use Magical Device, Silver Tongue, Invisibility 1/3 rounds

3rd|Monk|
+2|
+3|
+3|
+3|Skills|New Feats|Fast Movement 10ft, Aura of Courage, Sneak Attack +1d6

4th|Monk|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Skills||Earthbound, Fangs 1/day, Turn Undead

5th|Monk|
+3|
+4|
+4|
+4|Skills||Holy Strike, Smite Evil 2/day, AC +1

6th|Monk|
+4|
+5|
+5|
+5|Skills|New Feats|Sneak Attack +2d6, Use Magic Device Bonus (1/2 Monk level), Fast Movement 20ft

7th|Monk|
+5|
+5|
+5|
+5|Skills||Shadow Blend

8th|Monk|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6|Skills||Fangs 2/day, Intimidating Stance

9th|Monk|
+6|
+6|
+6|
+6|Skills|New Feats|Blink 1/3 rounds, Sneak Attack +3d6, Fast Movement 30ft
[/table]

[animewatcha]

Holy monk and fighting style. Isn't the language of the fighting style that if you don't take the bonus feats then you don't get the 6th bonus thnger. Amongst other things. So taking the holy monk thing would mean that you don't get the sacred path of weejas bonus. Also, path benefit is half monk level not half of effective monk level.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've really been wanting to try out a monk because i'm a martial artist and thought it would be fun to do. how would you build one because i've heard they're like glass cannons.

If you want to emulate a martial artist, you want to build something with only a dip in monk. The monk class isn't designed to mimic a martial artist, it's designed to mimic a mystically minded ascetic that knows some martial arts.

It's bhuddist temple, not UFC.

Personally, I like a Master of Nine build for my high-end martial artist needs. Mine goes Monk 2/Warblade 2/Swordsge 3/MoN 5/(martial adept) 8. The MoN and last 8 levels get mixed up a bit so I can cherry pick maneuvers by which refresh mechanic I want them on and when they become available.

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Holy monk and fighting style. Isn't the language of the fighting style that if you don't take the bonus feats then you don't get the 6th bonus thnger. Amongst other things. So taking the holy monk thing would mean that you don't get the sacred path of weejas bonus. Also, path benefit is half monk level not half of effective monk level.

It only says you lose the bonus if you take a different feat, not if you don't get one at all. It's debatable, but since you aren't selecting a different feat you should be fine and since the bonuses aren't tied to your bonus feats, Holy Monk won't take them away. Also I never said effective monk level, I just said monk level.

[animewatcha]

Does wee jas count as shar when 'crossing realms' ?

[Ryu_Bonkosi]

Does wee jas count as shar when 'crossing realms' ?

I have no idea, but like I said, you may encounter some issues with mixing those two.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Does wee jas count as shar when 'crossing realms' ?

Wee Jas is the (core) diety of death and magic, while Shar is the (FR) goddess of secrets, darkness and the Shadow Weave (magic).

So... not quite an even match.

EDIT: The FRCS suggests converting any cleric of Wee Jas into a cleric of either Azuth or Kelemvor. Take of that what you will.

[Rejakor]

If you're playing Core only, or your group is new to DnD and thus probably will look askance at splat books and alternate class abilities and whatever, I can offer you two suggestions -

1. Play a dex, wis, and str focused monk. Most enemies hit hard enough that a high con isn't going to save you, although it should still be not negative if possible. With high dex and wis, and focusing on items that increase either or your AC in other ways (bracers of armour are never not a good buy for a monk, that or a wand of mage armour that you're activating somehow - a level of sorcerer isn't even a bad idea solely to cast mage armour, in a low optimization game), you'll be hard to hit by stock enemies. High strength will let you hit people even with your crappy BAB and lack of incidental bonuses. Using a Bo staff or something instead of unarmed strikes lets you have a magic weapon, and you don't really feel the 'damage loss' until like level 15 so meh.

2. There is a weapon in the DMG, Dungeon Master's Guide, I forget the exact name but it's in the section on adventuring in other places than greyhawk. It is that thing that's like a kama with a chain attached. It can be wielded one handed, and has reach. With that, which you should be able to argue a monk can use, or a glaive, you can threaten enemies 10' away and also 5' away with unarmed strikes. So you become a zone of death. Take Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (first AoO is ALWAYS a trip - remember, with Improved Trip you get a free attack if you succeed at tripping them, AND a +4 to tripping, and also remember if they are already tripped you can't re-trip them, your AoO happens BEFORE they get up from prone), and then stuff like power attack so you can capitalize on the enemy's defence being lowered. Google the Horizon Tripper for more information on this Core-only melee fighting style.


Otherwise, i'd second people's opinions to take a look at the Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Each school of maneuvers corresponds to a fighting style, so you can theme your guy by mostly taking one or two styles, or have him be a multiple martial art master and be using a plethora of everything. Unarmed Swordsage is an adaptation of the Swordsage from the end of the class entry. It loses armour and martial weapon proficiency, but gains unarmed strike and unarmoured AC bonus.

Barring that, there are a number of monk fixes floating around, but they are all terrible.

If the game is relatively high powered (you have just joined but other people have played before and are playing druids with fleshrakers and wizards with metamagic cost reducers and whatever), you might have a chat to your DM about the Tome Monk, which is one of the more balanced Tome classes, and incredibly fun to play.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The weapon that rejakor brought up in his second bullet point is called a kusari-gama. It's a weapon typically associated with ninja.

[Con_Brio1993]

I wish my DM would believe everyone in this thread. He thinks monks actually function as mage killers. He also thinks all of their class features are amazing.

[Kuulvheysoon]

If you're playing Core only, or your group is new to DnD and thus probably will look askance at splat books and alternate class abilities and whatever, I can offer you two suggestions -

1. Play a dex, wis, and str focused monk. Most enemies hit hard enough that a high con isn't going to save you, although it should still be not negative if possible. With high dex and wis, and focusing on items that increase either or your AC in other ways (bracers of armour are never not a good buy for a monk, that or a wand of mage armour that you're activating somehow - a level of sorcerer isn't even a bad idea solely to cast mage armour, in a low optimization game), you'll be hard to hit by stock enemies. High strength will let you hit people even with your crappy BAB and lack of incidental bonuses. Using a Bo staff or something instead of unarmed strikes lets you have a magic weapon, and you don't really feel the 'damage loss' until like level 15 so meh.

No. Just... no. A monk is a melee character. Constitution should not be a fourth priority. If you're just going for a single level dip, Wizard is better than Sorceror except in a very small amount of situations (you have a positive Charisma modifier already, you're planning on taking that Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv, one or two other situations), because Charisma is the ONLY stat that monks can truly dump. Intelligence can at least be used to get you extra skills, plus there' the Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk feats. A Scorpion Kama (MIC) lets you use your unarmed attack damage while using it, if your base UAS damage is higher.


2. There is a weapon in the DMG, Dungeon Master's Guide, I forget the exact name but it's in the section on adventuring in other places than greyhawk. It is that thing that's like a kama with a chain attached. It can be wielded one handed, and has reach. With that, which you should be able to argue a monk can use, or a glaive, you can threaten enemies 10' away and also 5' away with unarmed strikes. So you become a zone of death. Take Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip (first AoO is ALWAYS a trip - remember, with Improved Trip you get a free attack if you succeed at tripping them, AND a +4 to tripping, and also remember if they are already tripped you can't re-trip them, your AoO happens BEFORE they get up from prone), and then stuff like power attack so you can capitalize on the enemy's defence being lowered. Google the Horizon Tripper for more information on this Core-only melee fighting style.

Monks don't have proficiency with either the kusari-gama or the glaive, and as a Light weapon, you cannot use Power Attack with a Kusari-gama.


Otherwise, i'd second people's opinions to take a look at the Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. Each school of maneuvers corresponds to a fighting style, so you can theme your guy by mostly taking one or two styles, or have him be a multiple martial art master and be using a plethora of everything. Unarmed Swordsage is an adaptation of the Swordsage from the end of the class entry. It loses armour and martial weapon proficiency, but gains unarmed strike and unarmoured AC bonus.

Barring that, there are a number of monk fixes floating around, but they are all terrible.

If the game is relatively high powered (you have just joined but other people have played before and are playing druids with fleshrakers and wizards with metamagic cost reducers and whatever), you might have a chat to your DM about the Tome Monk, which is one of the more balanced Tome classes, and incredibly fun to play.

(Unarmed) Swordsage is probably the best option here, especially if you focus more on Setting Sun and Diamond Mind, with a smattering of Stone Dragon.

It's more than slightly harsh to call all of the monk fixes floating around GitP terrible. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but there' more than a few quite acceptable fixes around here. And you know those homebrewed monks that you hate so much? They usually grant the monk improved weapon proficiencies like, say, the kusari-gama or the glaive.

If you're talking about this Tome Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)), be wary of using it at low levels - dealing 2 points of Constitution damage EVERY ROUND is more than a little overpowered.

[huttj509]

OP hasn't reposted in ~16 hours, in a thread on a generally incendiary topic, especially when clarification's needed on PF/3.5, Monk class or "barehanded warrior" style, power level of campaign, etc.

At what point does the meme get linked?

[lord pringle]

I wish my DM would believe everyone in this thread. He thinks monks actually function as mage killers. He also thinks all of their class features are amazing.

Make a 20th level DMM: Persist Clericzilla. Then have him build a 20th level monk and then have the two characters duke it out in an arena. Each time he demands a rematch, take him up on the offer. He will understand.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the monk, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too. This has a feat tax from a feat in Eberron Campaign Setting, ask your DM if you have to take that feat or not, if you never plan on going back to Monk (which you don't).

3.) Barbarian, with several things done to it. Maybe use a Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement], Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Additionally, perhaps take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps-- though. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get as many of these as you can: Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), Improved Natural Attack: Unarmed Strike (Monster Manual or the System Resource Document), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Compendium Volume 1). In fact, any of these builds could plausibly maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist. This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in Complete Divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape, and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps from Magic Item Compendium, or taking your gear off and putting it on after you shape).

Oh, just a note? NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY (Book of Exalted Deeds).

Monks suck for several reasons! Including:

1.) Multiple attribute dependency
2.) Class features that don't work well together (speed improvements with a flurry that can only be used if you don't move... those don't work well together. Remember, you have to do a full attack to flurry, and flurrying lowers your strength bonus to damage, and also the speed improvements dont benefit from various other forms of magical speed increases)
3.) Lack of damage output (to hit and total damage, needs more ways to bump per hit damage)
4.) Lack of ability to actually resist many of the things they are supposed to be good at resisting
5.) Lack of ability to overcome Damage Reduction and myriad other defenses
6.) Lack of mobility modes (flight, swim, teleportations that don't suck, etc.)
7.) The supernatural abilities are generally watered down versions of spells that spellcasters got five or more levels ago
8.) Lack of role in a party (should probably be the mobility, skills, trap guy; should be able to replace the rogue, but can't)
9.) Lack of ranged options
10.) Abilities that are actually hindrances (ie, Spell Resistance makes it hard for you to be healed if you are dying, for example, perfect self causes several penalties when interacting with other rules, etc.)

Basically... compare the homebrew monk fix with the original monk class:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

Look at the two side by side, see what was changed, and then figure out WHY it was changed... Also note the feat changes in that homebrew variant!

[sonofzeal]

Oh, just a note? NEVER TAKE VOW OF POVERTY (Book of Exalted Deeds).
Not true. VoP is worthwhile for a monk in a lvl 1-3 game that won't ever progress to higher levels. It's worthwhile even in higher level games under DMs who are deliberately trying to stay low-wealth, or DMs that are just plain terrible at keeping up on that front (which is sadly not uncommon), or in campaign settings where magical gear is difficult or impossible to acquire. It's also quite valuable for Monks who pick up Wildshape or some other method of polymorphing themselves (Wild Monk variant, Monk/Druid multiclass, Tashalatora with Metamorphosis, etc).

I mean, yeah, in theory it's a trap option in the general case, but the edge cases are not insignificant.

[GenghisDon]

Make a 20th level DMM: Persist Clericzilla. Then have him build a 20th level monk and then have the two characters duke it out in an arena. Each time he demands a rematch, take him up on the offer. He will understand.

Well, that isn't a mage, so I am not sure he'd learn anything, save perhaps to ban the divine metamagic feat.

I'd look over the tier lists with your DM, & dependant on the other player's classes are, see about having great stats (higher point buy) or a free gestalt (with fighter, say).

One doesn't need to be uber if they are a in a small pond, however.

[lord pringle]

Well, that isn't a mage, so I am not sure he'd learn anything, save perhaps to ban the divine metamagic feat.

A mailman might be better, but my point still stands.

[GenghisDon]

mailman, or just a typical wizard 20, would probably get the point across, yes.

[animewatcha]

Wee Jas is the (core) diety of death and magic, while Shar is the (FR) goddess of secrets, darkness and the Shadow Weave (magic).

So... not quite an even match.

EDIT: The FRCS suggests converting any cleric of Wee Jas into a cleric of either Azuth or Kelemvor. Take of that what you will.

A little late, my apologies. Thank you for the clarification. Then, unless DM says otherwise, dark moon sub level can't be taken due to needing 'Shar' as patron deity.

[Rejakor]

No. Just... no. A monk is a melee character. Constitution should not be a fourth priority. If you're just going for a single level dip, Wizard is better than Sorceror except in a very small amount of situations (you have a positive Charisma modifier already, you're planning on taking that Ascetic Mage feat from CAdv, one or two other situations), because Charisma is the ONLY stat that monks can truly dump. Intelligence can at least be used to get you extra skills, plus there' the Kung-Fu Genius/Carmendine Monk feats. A Scorpion Kama (MIC) lets you use your unarmed attack damage while using it, if your base UAS damage is higher.

I probably should have noted that in point buy monks want one 16 and lots of 14s as opposed to two 18s, but I still stand by my con comes 4th comment.

Without a decent AC, monks just get hammered. And end up eating up all the cleric's heals. And without str, they don't do ANYTHING in combat, and thus are just wastes of space in both senses.

Not being a waste of space is more important than overall survivability, as a core monk, which is what I was talking about.




Monks don't have proficiency with either the kusari-gama or the glaive, and as a Light weapon, you cannot use Power Attack with a Kusari-gama.

A DM who doesn't give out a free weapon proficiency for a signature weapon or style or whatever is an alarm bell DM.



It's more than slightly harsh to call all of the monk fixes floating around GitP terrible. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinion, but there' more than a few quite acceptable fixes around here. And you know those homebrewed monks that you hate so much? They usually grant the monk improved weapon proficiencies like, say, the kusari-gama or the glaive.

Again, themed martial weapon proficiencies should come free with any reasonable DM. Speaking as someone who has read through most of them, if you are going to go to the trouble of getting homebrew allowed in your game, you're better off just sitting down with the DM and writing your own damn class than using literally any of them.


If you're talking about this Tome Monk (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Monk,_Tome_(3.5e_Class)), be wary of using it at low levels - dealing 2 points of Constitution damage EVERY ROUND is more than a little overpowered.

In the meantime, the barbarian killed the creature with 1 charge. 2 constitution damage = -1 hp per HD. That sounds like a perfectly balanced effect to me. Tilted towards dealing with big, high-HD nasties that are bosses or minibosses, perhaps. But still not anything to write home about.

The only enemies that could be kinda screwed by this, undead, with their masses of HD and relatively low hp per HD, don't have con scores and are thus immune.

If you actually managed to kill something by reducing it's con score to zero, by doing 2 con damage per round, wow. That is one WEIRD fight. I guess maybe something with heaps of regen and you didn't have fire or acid to coup de grace it with? Wow. I would pay money to see that.

To put this into perspective, a 1 HD commoner would take 5 rounds to kill via this method.

Even a wizard would take 7ish rounds to kill, assuming he had the level to afford an amulet of health.

Although I guess Raistlin would die pretty quick to this.

Raistlin-killer punch.

Yeah okay I concede the point - in a game where you are fighting raistlin, the low level Tome Monk is overpowered.

[Psyren]

(Actually, this reminds me, how are Binders at "monking" it up?)

Meh. There's a monk-ish vestige (Ronove) widely regarded as being subpar/poorly-edited. (Far Hand with a strength [I]score[I] equal to your EBL is pretty bad - you need level 10 before the modifier stops being negative!) And the other abilities are even weaker.

Best to get one of the ones with natural attacks instead. Or just use a weapon.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I probably should have noted that in point buy monks want one 16 and lots of 14s as opposed to two 18s, but I still stand by my con comes 4th comment.

Without a decent AC, monks just get hammered. And end up eating up all the cleric's heals. And without str, they don't do ANYTHING in combat, and thus are just wastes of space in both senses.

Not being a waste of space is more important than overall survivability, as a core monk, which is what I was talking about.

This is why you don't play vanilla monk in a point buy environment unless it's extremely generous. Monk is the most MAD class in core (arguably in 3.5e).

Just as you stand by your placement of Con as a 4th priority, so will I stand by saying that a melee character should have Constitution as a 3rd priority at worst.


A DM who doesn't give out a free weapon proficiency for a signature weapon or style or whatever is an alarm bell DM.

We have no idea how lenient the DM of the OP is; I'm assuming that he's not changing anything abut the monk class (the safest assumption).

2 Constitution damage per round may not seem like a big deal to you (as I have no idea the level of optimization that you play), but keep in mind other abilities that deal Constitution damage on a regular basis: Drain Vitality (Shadow Hand strike, 2nd level maneuver (ECL 3), and offers a save) or Bonesplitting Strike (Stone Dragon strike, 4th level maneuver (ECL 7), no save). Of the two, it more closely resembles a warblade using Bonesplitting Strike and refreshing it every round.

Except that the warblade can't access the trick until 6 levels later, and the Tome monk can do things in addtion to iit at the same time.

Your sarcasm is not much appreciated, either.

[Venger]

Monk is the most MAD class in core (arguably in 3.5e).

in core, definitely.

in 3.5, I would propose that the Knight from phb2 is slightly more MAD and I'll explain why, needing:
str for damage/atk
dex for nothing really, you'll be wearing heavy armor
con for hp (your primary class feature) and fort saves since it has a poor fort save for whatever asinine reason
int: meh.
wis to try to play catchup when you eventually prc out (making your challenge abilities even more useless) or keep it highish to make your good will save actually do something (and be trapped playing knight)
and cha as your primary ability. as a melee fighter. since all your class features are keyed off it, you must have it be the highest.

while monks can dump cha and perhaps wis as well if you don't mind burning a feat on carmendine monk (worth it if you're not using wis for divine casting) and knights will always have dex and int as dump stats, the primary of cha for knights vs str/wis/int for monks is a much worse primary to have, and while the importance of the abilities monk relies on is in a rough hierarchy (depending on playstyle of course: str/dex/con/wis or int/cha) knight needs all the abilities it actually cares about after cha in pretty much equal severity.

[Gavinfoxx]

Wouldn't Divine Bard be most MAD?

[Venger]

Wouldn't Divine Bard be most MAD?

on paper, it's a little MAD (wis for spells, cha for social skills) but what else? everyone needs con if they're living, str/dex aren't important for a bard unless you hate yourself and want to be melee bard, but if you do, you wouldn't go divine bard, you'd roll war chanter, which relies on cha.

when you do see divine bard used, it's just for the casting, so ends up being wis SAD in my experience.

[eggs]

There's only dependency on multiple attributes if the class has weak features.

A Cloistered Cleric melee build, for instance, is going to directly be using every attribute for class features and combat functions, but you'd be hard-pressed to call it "MAD" in the same way as the Monk or Swashbuckler: spells+Wisdom alone are strong enough to dominate almost anything.

[Gwendol]

There is a difference in the MADness of monks and knights: Knights get useful class features, most of which synergizes.

And you analysis of the knight ability dependence is a bit off. CHA doesn't have to be that high. The knight can buff it before making his ToM. Compared to the Paladin, CHA is less important for the knight. DEX however should be at least 12, and combat reflexes is more or less a feat tax for the knight due to the bulwark of defence ability, which is one of the best the class has to offer.

The knight can afford to dump INT and WIS. The monk needs more or less all but CHA to give positive modifyers (and yet they have diplomacy as class skill).

[Venger]

There is a difference in the MADness of monks and knights: Knights get useful class features, most of which synergizes.

And you analysis of the knight ability dependence is a bit off. CHA doesn't have to be that high. The knight can buff it before making his ToM. Compared to the Paladin, CHA is less important for the knight. DEX however should be at least 12, and combat reflexes is more or less a feat tax for the knight due to the bulwark of defence ability, which is one of the best the class has to offer.

The knight can afford to dump INT and WIS. The monk needs more or less all but CHA to give positive modifyers (and yet they have diplomacy as class skill).

you do have a point. I said cha was important because knight doesn't really have a good way of boosting his cha on his own. what did you have in mind? just cloak of cha or potions of eagle splendor or what?

bulwark of defense along with mage slayer is undoubtedly glorious, especially with a reach weapon. 12 is the highest dex should be though since your max dex will likely be +1 due to heavy armor. the knight can dump int. I guess they don't need wis, but it's just really frustrating that they only have good will.

with normal classes, you have a good save usually with a save that you'll have a good ability in. that way you have goodish base numbers and a good root. with knight, you'll have base, but won't have wis, so all of your saves will be kind of disappointing

[hoverfrog]

No-one seems to have mentioned the Monk's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=d018be4b2vkevnhcdct8ok8d44&topic=1015.0) yet.

[Kaeso]

I've really been wanting to try out a monk because i'm a martial artist and thought it would be fun to do. how would you build one because i've heard they're like glass cannons.

The monk:
1. Take unarmed swordsage
2. ????
3. PROFIT!

Goku:
1. Take a level of monk
2. Take a few wizard/sorcerer levels
3. Take Enlightened fist
4. ????
5. PROFIT!

Saint Beefcake Ironfist of Antioch:
1. Take a level of monk
2. Take a few levels of cleric
3. Take Divine fist
4. ?????
5. PROFIT!

[God Imperror]

Make an aerenal elf with aerenal focus on lucid dreaming, then focus on pumping up lucid dreaming and grapple. Go to town the dreamscape.

[Gwendol]

you do have a point. I said cha was important because knight doesn't really have a good way of boosting his cha on his own. what did you have in mind? just cloak of cha or potions of eagle splendor or what?

bulwark of defense along with mage slayer is undoubtedly glorious, especially with a reach weapon. 12 is the highest dex should be though since your max dex will likely be +1 due to heavy armor. the knight can dump int. I guess they don't need wis, but it's just really frustrating that they only have good will.

with normal classes, you have a good save usually with a save that you'll have a good ability in. that way you have goodish base numbers and a good root. with knight, you'll have base, but won't have wis, so all of your saves will be kind of disappointing

Well, they can always take the ability focus feat to increase the DC, and swig a potion of eagle's splendor when needed. The thing with ToM is that it is a strategic choice for when to deploy, while BoD is always useful, as is Knight's challenge. I would argue for having more DEX and wear medium armor since that means higher mobility, but again, the number of AoO's can be increased simply by wearing bracers of opportunity (MiC).

The only thing the monk has against the knight (and most other classes) are the saves, which does give them some survivability.

[Rejakor]

Just as you stand by your placement of Con as a 4th priority, so will I stand by saying that a melee character should have Constitution as a 3rd priority at worst.

You may have missed the header of that section of advice. It was about if you are playing in a Core only low op game and want to play the monk class. Not really referring to any other set of circumstances. I agree, monk is terrible. But if people are playing Skill Focus: Climb fighters, a well-built monk doesn't look so terrible by comparison.




We have no idea how lenient the DM of the OP is; I'm assuming that he's not changing anything abut the monk class (the safest assumption).

2 Constitution damage per round may not seem like a big deal to you (as I have no idea the level of optimization that you play), but keep in mind other abilities that deal Constitution damage on a regular basis: Drain Vitality (Shadow Hand strike, 2nd level maneuver (ECL 3), and offers a save) or Bonesplitting Strike (Stone Dragon strike, 4th level maneuver (ECL 7), no save). Of the two, it more closely resembles a warblade using Bonesplitting Strike and refreshing it every round.

Except that the warblade can't access the trick until 6 levels later, and the Tome monk can do things in addtion to iit at the same time.

Your sarcasm is not much appreciated, either.

1. I wasn't being sarcastic. I was being hyperbolic - there are situations other than a slap-fight with raistlin where that con damage could be useful. But I stand by my other points and there's a world of difference between sarcasm and hyperbole.

If we assume that the entire party is doing only, ever, weapon damage + str, i'm hard-pressed to think of a creature that has enough HD for the con damage to matter to it where the hp damage wouldn't. Most things with 20 HD or whatever (i.e. -20 hp for each -2 con they take) tend to have 30 con and be dripping in hp to the point that they don't really care about -2 con per round. And they tend to show up at the level where people do more than 20 damage per attack even without sneak attack or power attack or blasting spells or any other means of doing more than 1d12+8 twice (human barbarian raging at level 6 armed with a masterwork greataxe -if we assume 16 base str, it becomes 1d12+7 instead - 14 base str = 1d12+6).

I mean, it's definitely better than regular monk, but compared to even an unoptimized druid or cleric, it's great.

There are no all-day stat damage abilities because the designers thought it was overpowered. At least, other than poison, and a few vestiges, and some warlock blasts... but the point is, it's nowhere near as powerful as what the designers thought.

A wizard can use a 1st level spell at level 1 to do 1d6+1 str penalty to someone, in a single round, which is on average twice as much as a monk. At 3rd level they can use a 1st and then 2nd level spell to do 2d6+6 total str penalty. That's enough to paralyze nearly anything at that level, and they do it in 2 rounds, before an enemy could even close unless that enemy had the drop on them. That's two very sub-par spells. Compare that to say sleep, or colour spray, that don't require you to stand right next to something for 7 rounds to knock it out.

Even basic HP damage is more useful, because unless you have a team of monks all tag-teaming one big monster for con damage, it's far more likely to be able to focus fire something's HP down than it is to get it's con to 0.

The warblade example is a false equivalency - that monk isn't also able to immediate action counter stuff and do all kinds of fancy tricks - he has that one trick, and maybe one other trick. And doing con damage isn't a powerful warblade ability - no-one ever TAKES that stone dragon strike because it's GORRAM TERRIBLE. It's an early level ability in a 4th level slot.

If we assume the entire party is doing only, ever, weapon damage + str