Help with a standard melee class

[Invader]

Our current group is sans any type of front line fighter tankish character and I'm think about rolling one to fill that roll. The problem is in 12 years of playing 3.5 I've never played a martial class so I really have no idea where to start other than "fighters are fighter types".

Really what I'm looking for is a high damage really hard to kill character. I've seen the various charger/ubercharger builds which look like a lot of fun but I'd prefer to be a lot harder to kill with a ton of hp's.

Currently we're 4th level, regular wbl, pretty much all books allowed, no LA, no dragon mag, 32 point buy, and 2 flaws, (its also a high undead campaign). I've never used ToB before and would prefer not to learn it unless there's something that really fits what I'm looking for.

Do you guys have any suggestions or good places to start?

[ahenobarbi]

Actually a crusader would probably fit your needs.

[Eldariel]

Actually a crusader would probably fit your needs.

If you want a frontliner who can make it impossible/hard to get past him and to hit the others, give others some combat bonuses and hit hard while at it, Crusader is precisely what you want. A sort of a combat leader/warrior thingy. Warblade is more of a pure warrior but if you specifically want someone to "tank" things, Crusader is definitely the way to go.

[Kesnit]

While ToB would be your best bet, it does not have to be your only option. How many options you have depends a lot on the other players and the campaign.

1) How many other players are they and what are they playing?
2) How long is this campaign expected to go? (Level 6? 10? 20?)
3) How optimized are the other players (CoDzilla? Blaster SORC? VoP Monk?)

[ThiagoMartell]

If you don't want to learn ToB, Duskblade or Psychic Warrior are solid choices.

[Fable Wright]

Crusaders make for great tanks. Psychic warriors can delegate all of their tankiness to one power (Vigor. It gives you metric craptons of temporary HP), and still have plenty left over to buff their damage, to hit, and/or alternate modes of attack or swift-action actions to enchance their abilities in combat. I recommend Expansion, Offensive Prescience, and Claws of the beast for a good combat base. Taking a few PrCs might help. Alternatively, you could add Warmind levels to any other melee build for extra tankiness and some buffs.

[Kelb_Panthera]

While ToB's crusader fits to a T, you might consider a knight (PHB2) if the group's not high-op. They've got d12 hit dice, heavy armor proficiency and bonus feats that can be put toward a mounted uber-charger setup. The knights challenge ability is the only real aggro mechanic in D&D aside from the goad feat, and combined with several of the knight's other class-features makes for some decent BFC.

On the downside, the knight does come with a lawful alignment requirement, a code of conduct that must be observed, and is a touch MAD, not like monk or paladin MAD though.

[Invader]

While ToB would be your best bet, it does not have to be your only option. How many options you have depends a lot on the other players and the campaign.

1) How many other players are they and what are they playing?
2) How long is this campaign expected to go? (Level 6? 10? 20?)
3) How optimized are the other players (CoDzilla? Blaster SORC? VoP Monk?)

We're currently playing with 2 clerics, 1 optimized although I'm not to what end because the guy playing his is a rather odd mixture of hyper and strange so no one ever really knows what he's doing, an unoptimized twf dagger rogue, and an unoptimized dusk blade.

I honestly can't say how long the campaign will go because we just got the obligatory "I'll DM as long as you guys want to play" answer. For the sake of argument I'll say 8th-9th level.

Crusader looks like a popular choice so I'll be checking that when I get to an actual computer and not my phone. Is generally just straight crusader popular or do I need some random dips to get the most out of it?

[Eldariel]

We're currently playing with 2 clerics, 1 optimized although I'm not to what end because the guy playing his is a rather odd mixture of hyper and strange so no one ever really knows what he's doing, an unoptimized twf dagger rogue, and an unoptimized dusk blade.

I honestly can't say how long the campaign will go because we just got the obligatory "I'll DM as long as you guys want to play" answer. For the sake of argument I'll say 8th-9th level.

Crusader looks like a popular choice so I'll be checking that when I get to an actual computer and not my phone. Is generally just straight crusader popular or do I need some ransomed dips to get the most out of it?

Straight Crusader is really good out of the box (though the Stance progression is off the whack and you might want to discuss with the DM to implement Unofficial Errata (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=346.0) or so be able to delay taking stances). You could potentially dip Barbarian (for Pounce and Improved Trip) or Knight (for Bulwark of Defense) but straight Crusader is more than adequate and it's almost impossible to screw up.

[Invader]

Well after reading over all the pertinent information in ToB and the crusader handbook I think everyone is right, Crusader seems to be exactly what I was looking for and I guess really ToB isn't that hard to get the hang of if you actually sit down and read all the rules lol.

Now I just have to figure out a good build for him. I'm also trying to decide between a dragonborn water orc or a straight dragonborn goliath. Obviously no LA is nice but does it make up for powerful build when focusing on melee damage?

[Eldariel]

Melee damage in and of itself is largely independent of weapon damage dice; they're nice but nothing to write home about. Also Strongarm Bracers [Magic Item Compendium] do the same as Powerful Build in that regard. The biggest advantages Goliath offers are actual Large size from Mountain Rage (need to dip Barbarian for that); gives you reach which is good.

Also, +4 Size on combat maneuvers such as Trip or Bull Rush; both great control options (Bull Rush takes more work with stuff like Rampaging Bull Rush tho). Note tho, you're taking huge Dex-penalties and controlling is largely based around Attacks of Opportunity for which you need Combat Reflexes so Dragonborn might be out of place here.


Overall, care the stats. If you want to go AoOs, you want Dex and outside Barbarian, you need 13 Int for Improved Trip (Barbarian can get it without prerequisites tho, through Wolf Totem Barbarian (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm) on level 2).

Also, Crusader has some relatively minor Charisma-synergies that are worth noting at least; Smite and Indomitable Will are both, while not amazing, somewhat decent stats at least. So Charisma-penalties are, while not terrible, probably not desired either (tho note, Cha 8 Crusader still works just fine; again, they aren't key class features). And Int-penalties kinda suck since skills are nice and Crusaders have a decent list so you want skill points but again, you can live with them. Wisdom, obviously, for perception skills and Will-saves but nothing major beyond that.

[Invader]

I'd like to come up with some kind of charger/healer hybrid although I haven't looked into all the best maneuvers/stances/feats to make that happen yet. I'm sure it's not the most optimized way to go but I think I could come up with something that's still pretty viable in both regards.

[Rejakor]

Crusader has strikes that heal, which is probably the only in-combat healing you want to be doing. Out of combat, wands with UMD will heal you, or if you're *****rdly, a single level of cleric or druid will allow anyone to activate the wands without UMD.

Chargers want to be using their turn charging. So they won't be using healing strikes much.

Area-Denial crusaders, however, tend to be able to healing strike people because they do most of their stuff off turn.

I also like area denial crusaders because thicket of blades is absolutely freakin' amazing. 'no 5' steps for you EVER HAHAHAHAHAHAHA'

Step 1 to area denial is being Large size. Step 2 is wielding either a spiked chain, or a combination (combination!) of a reach weapon (I like glaive) and armour spikes/unarmed strikes. A good if weird combo is wielding a reach weapon in one hand somehow and wielding a spiked shield, which if I remember rightly, counts as a weapon and therefore threatens. You generally want to be sword and boarding it up cause crusader has some not bad maneuvers related to shields.

A dip in cleric is good for crusaders because then they can go ruby knight vindicator which is a great class even without the divine impetus crap. Divine Shield lets you burn turn attempts to add your charisma to your AC and other benefits if you have a shield, and Divine Might isn't terrible either.

For charging you're less optimal but basic leap attack power attack shock trooper etc stuff still applies.

[Gwendol]

Knight 4/Crusader X is a tried and tested build. You want the spiked chain, combat reflexes, stand still, robilar's gambit, defensive sweep, and similar feats. Then you combkne bulwark of defence, thicket of blades and large size to completly lock down the area around you.

[Eldariel]

Crusader Strikes from Devoted Spirit are already a great source of healing so there's that. A straight Crusader does pretty much exactly what you want.

If you feel you need more, you can go Cleric 4/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10; gives you divine casting, fearsome frontline prowess and overall kicks ass and takes names. You only lose 1 BAB this way too so combat-wise you don't lose a lot.


Another option would be Bard (1 to 4)/Crusader -> with Song of the White Raven though that won't really get you the casting necessary to make healing from that source truly work. It does give you full Inspire Courage tho, and access to healing Wands.

[killianh]

If you're more use to casters, why not try building a gish? can be done with cleric solo, but is far more interesting to build from the ground up. Duskblade or psychic warrior are nice gish in a can types, and the ToB classes have far more options available to them other that "charge, smack" but if you build a gish with say 5 levels of spell sword you can channel spells into the sword that go off when you hit, including AoEs but focused only on the target. Putting cloudkill in someone's armour is very satisfactory :smallcool:

[molten_dragon]

Well after reading over all the pertinent information in ToB and the crusader handbook I think everyone is right, Crusader seems to be exactly what I was looking for and I guess really ToB isn't that hard to get the hang of if you actually sit down and read all the rules lol.

Now I just have to figure out a good build for him. I'm also trying to decide between a dragonborn water orc or a straight dragonborn goliath. Obviously no LA is nice but does it make up for powerful build when focusing on melee damage?

If you really want to be hard to kill, be a dragonborn mongrelfolk.

[eggs]

A build I've recently enjoyed for this is Paladin 4/Warblade 1/Hellreaver X with animal and travel devotions (one through CChamp's spell-less variant) and Mage slayer feats. It has high damage output from Travel Devotion+brute force full attacks (with a variety of more situational bonuses like animal devotion and Hellreaver), high defenses from Warblade counters, Paladin Divine Grace and Hellreaver Mettle+HP recharge, and a fairly broad array of tactics for a melee build (Animal devotion gives flight or Con poisons; Warblade provides prerequisites for maneuver items).

One tweak I'd consider is swapping the Mage slayer line for Stand Still and some fear effects like Dreadful Wrath and Imperious Command - the one problem that the build has was that even though it could do its melee combat thing pretty well, it was all basically targeting the AC+HP+DR defenses.

[Invader]

I guess I should have clarified when I said I wanted a healer/charger hybrid, I meant a self healer via maneuvers, not neccesarily other people.

It seems like charger focused feats and devoted spirit focused maneuvers would allow me to do both reasonably well and still be pretty effective.

[Eldariel]

I guess I should have clarified when I said I wanted a healer/charger hybrid, I meant a self healer via maneuvers, not neccesarily other people.

It seems like charger focused feats and devoted spirit focused maneuvers would allow me to do both reasonably well and still be pretty effective.

Ah. Straight Crusader all the way then. You get your healing outta your Devoted Spirit and White Raven and Devoted Spirit both have pretty good charges. Tho you can heal other people too, certainly. Might want to add Stone Power-feat from Tome of Battle for some Temporary HP buffer.

[Invader]

Ah. Straight Crusader all the way then. You get your healing outta your Devoted Spirit and White Raven and Devoted Spirit both have pretty good charges. Tho you can heal other people too, certainly. Might want to add Stone Power-feat from Tome of Battle for some Temporary HP buffer.

And still be incredibly hard to kill :smallbiggrin: