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Madfellow
2012-08-13, 07:21 PM
So I've been planning this campaign for a while now, and while I was discussing it with a friend he cautioned me about one of the ideas I'd come up with. I've come here looking for a second opinion (third, fourth, fifth, whatever).

The idea I have is that after a series of adventures the party learns about a large invasion of undead coming from another plane. Stopping this invasion requires them to travel to said plane. The campaign is low tier (4 and 5) so they probably won't have access to planar travel spells (I don't know if any low tier classes can get such spells), which means they'll need to use a portal. The portal only goes one way, but they're assured that there's another portal somewhere on the other world that can get them back.

Immediately after they walk through the portal, though, they start dying because the plane is negative-aligned. I figured they'd panic briefly as they started dropping like flies and I collect their character sheets one by one. Then, when the last player has dropped, I pass out a set of character sheets that are copies of their own characters, except they are now undead (I was thinking of using the lich template). And the adventure continues from there.

So is this a good idea or a bad idea? If you were playing a game and this happened to you, how would you feel?

The Random NPC
2012-08-13, 07:31 PM
I wouldn't like this at all, but if you are dead set on going through with it, take a look at the necropolitan template located in the Libris Mortis.

Remmirath
2012-08-13, 07:44 PM
I would probably be okay with it - probably think it was kind of neat - if it happened to me. It would depend a bit on how long the game had been going (I'm slow to actually care about my characters - generally takes a year or so for that to happen), and whether I was attached to my characters' current state of life, but chances are I'd be fine with it.

It sounds like an interesting idea to me, but I of course have no idea how your particular players will feel about it. I've known some people who I'm sure would not be at all happy if placed in that situation, including some who might give up on the game at that point, or start trying to get their characters killed once it happened.

Is there any way that you have put in, down the road, to reverse the process of undeath? Even an extremely difficult way might make it all right for some people who would otherwise be bothered by it. Also, as a less extreme measure against discontented players, some people who would be bothered by the lich thing might not be bothered by a vampire (or other sentience-retaining, non-skeletal undead) template instead. You might want to try to get a feel for how your players in particular would handle it, if you're not already sure - though I've no advice on how one would go about that without revealing your plan.

theMycon
2012-08-13, 07:48 PM
I imagine I would probably walk from the table (before the reveal) if this happened to me.

If I were still there after the reveal, I'd still be kinda pissed, and be passive-aggressive about it by trying everything I could to subtly derail the adventure.

It's a cool idea, but it's begging for PO'd players.

denthor
2012-08-13, 07:50 PM
If your players are like the normal players I have encountered they will research every last detail. Go to sages put off going through the portal until they know that they are safe.

So all in all a I would jump in they may hesitate. Better to have them find the portal and repel a scout force. Then see if they will go in while it is closing up.

Steward
2012-08-13, 07:53 PM
I would think it was totally awesome and I would definitely run with it to see where you're going, but I can totally imagine a scenario where another player would find it irritating to have their characters modified like that (even if they're otherwise ). What I would do is emphasize beforehand (perhaps through an NPC ally, a divination, or a Knowledge: Planes skill check that one of them might choose to make) that they're going into a plane of negative energy, which has the same effect on the living that positive energy effects (like turning and healing) has on the undead.

Then, when they enter the plane (if they still want to, that is) I would just flat-out tell them that if they are killed here the negative energy will reanimate them as intelligent undead. If they don't find the second portal, a way of preserving themselves, or some other means of survival, I would then ask them if they wanted to continue the campaign as intelligent undead (emphasize the last bit; if you're not careful they might just assume that you turned them into mindless zombies and get mad at you!) or just start again with the same or another campaign as if the first game had ended in a TPK.

The most important thing is to get buy-in from the PCs. Don't make it look like you're railroading them; if they legitimately could have found out about the negative-energy thing in some way (they talked to a friendly mid-level wizard, they read a book, they made a skill check or sought a divination) then don't hide it from them so that they'll go in there solely for plot reasons. If they find some way of preserving themselves from undeath, don't try and cheat them out of it. I think as long as you do that, and you give them a fair shot at things, I think it should go well.

Are your players really sensitive about this sort of thing in the past? (Like, are they the kinds who would get upset if the DM tampered with a character or its backstory in any way?)

SamBurke
2012-08-13, 07:58 PM
You might screw over your paladin or monk or cleric or favored soul pretty good... anyone who's LG, actually.

It might seem pretty... forced. Depends on if they'd be cool with it. If they're OK with getting a FORCED, EVIL, but *free* template, then sweet. Run it.

Though, allow them to change back, or work to change back if they want to.

Elvenoutrider
2012-08-13, 07:58 PM
If I were in your shoes I would skip the part where the players start slowly dying. Have them pass out as soon as they enter the portal than reawaken as the undead. make sure their new stats make their characters more powerful. Have someone there when they wake up to explain the situation, then tell them that if they succeed he has the power to being them back to life (kinda hard to find love as an undead).

This puts the players right into the action and ignores the frustration of slowly dying.

toapat
2012-08-13, 08:05 PM
here is a problem

What if you have someone that decides to be a HotD, and gains Soul Sealing, so that they can take a swim in raw negative energy without problem?

Kaun
2012-08-13, 08:06 PM
Ehh its a risky one, i would try to feel out the situation with your players first.

Jack of Spades
2012-08-13, 08:26 PM
My suggestion is drop the negative energy bit. Make something actually come along and kill them. It makes the death feel much more meaningful if they feel as though they actually had a chance. Surprising the players with, "Well, the mission necessitated your party entering this location. Too bad the very air in this location is inescapably deadly," is going to make most players walk away from the table and start telling everyone they know that you are "too adversarial" or probably something less nice.

A TPK can be a good tool, as long as the TPK is correctly presented. Take, for example, the Genesis or the Deadlands setting. The players were told they were playing a unit in the American Civil War. After some events, the group deserted, was caught, and were hung as traitors. The twist was that the entire group woke up a few days later in shallow graves outside of town.

The players loved it. Why is that? Well, there are three reasons that they didn't get pissed off and leave. The first and least worth discussing is the players. They were probably used to losing characters (this being back in the days of yore), and thus ecstatic to be able to keep some. The second is the fact that their deaths came from their own decisions. They weren't sent on a mission which inevitably led to their deaths. They deserted, and were thus punished for deserting. Making the players lead themselves to their deaths will always make those deaths more acceptable to them. The third reason is that even after the players had made a fatal decision they were still able to fight their fate. They were able to spend some time in the wilderness, avoiding the army's patrols and attempting to rough it before eventually being caught.

So, the conclusion is: never, ever force death on players, even if it is temporary. They will walk. The better way of killing players is to create a situation in which they will willingly choose their own demise, and then allow them to go out kicking and screaming. Telling them to make a series of checks with increasing negatives until they slowly drop from attrition will only piss people off and make what should be a meaningful moment (plot character death) into the most infuriating event of your entire campaign.

nedz
2012-08-13, 08:33 PM
Your question is hard to answer because it depends upon your players.
Some groups would love this, others would hate it.

There may also be problems with some of their characters; e.g. if one of the PCs is a dedicated undead slayer then you're risking a PvP TPK or having an insane PC at the very least.

You know your players better than anyone else, so only you can answer this question. Obviously if you try to directly gauge their opinion first you spoil the plot, but you might be able to do this indirectly.

Erik Vale
2012-08-13, 09:02 PM
As many has said, depends on the group, particularly on how role-playe they are, and how much pizza/(insert food) you provide, as well as other temptations. (Perhaps a secret note when they die.)

Perhaps give them hints that the plane is negative, give them a muggufin, and have it work in an unexpected way, that way it can be a suicide mission, that ends up being comfortable for more computer game like players.

The Random NPC
2012-08-13, 09:12 PM
Oh, how about a Macguffin that drains negative energy. It was the only thing keeping the Negative Energy plane from overwhelming the rest of the planes with negative energy and must be returned before all the planes turn into negative energy planes. It also draws negative energy to itself causing undead to rise spontaneously. The PCs are charged with returning it to the center of the Negative Energy plane before they succumb to it's effects. If they bother to check for it, the Positive Energy plane also has a similar item. Add appropriate effects as needed (slowed healing, boosted spells, etc.) That way the PCs know what's coming if they die.

Madfellow
2012-08-13, 10:18 PM
Alright, so if I let them know beforehand that the plane's essence is infectious and will transform them, then let them choose whether or not to go, you guys think it'll go over better?

The Random NPC
2012-08-13, 10:22 PM
I'd be ok with it, but it'll depend on your party.

darni
2012-08-13, 10:29 PM
I had a character who went through something similar: In a large battle with demons defending a portal we wanted to go through, my character is killed (in a somewhat unpleasant way, because when things were going wrong I thought I had escaped, an enemy appeared to finish me off). Instead of taking my character sheet, the GM describes my soul as present there, watching [which was a nice hint and let me know that there was something behind this death]

Then the rest of the party finishes the battle (another one dies too) and goes across the portal, and we found our souls going through and the two dead players transformed in wraiths (mechanically more or less shapechanged into a dread wraith). It was cool to play that way for a while, and some time later a divine intervention (plot-related: we were crossing the portal to get into carcerii and rescue a god trapped there) gave us back our bodies.

Summarizing: it can be great fun, but it helps a lot not having some time when I think I lost my character, and it helps having hope that the change is reversible.

Madfellow
2012-08-13, 10:32 PM
Yeah, and I was already planning to give them the ability to reverse it later.

Remmirath
2012-08-13, 10:47 PM
Since it's reversible, I wouldn't think too many people would have a problem with it. If they start getting upset, you can always hint at the fact that it is. It seems to me that you should be fine going through with your original plan.

Giving them some hint of what is to come before they enter the portal is a sound idea, too - if they must enter it to stop the invasion, it seems likely that they will do so anyhow after all, and then they will be forewarned. On the other hand, they might spend a good deal of time trying to come up with alternate ways to accomplish the mission.

If I were DMing something like that, my players are the sort who are very good at not using player knowledge, so I'd normally just let them know what was going to happen beforehand to make sure nobody would get upset and then go on with it. If DMing for a different group than normal I would probably let them know that staying too long on the plane is likely to be dangerous - if they do research before heading into it, that is - and then deal with any problems they might have as they come.

Logic
2012-08-13, 11:19 PM
Sometimes, an idea the DM has, for storytelling purposes needs one phrase attached to get along with the players.

"Just roll with me here guys."

If the players know the scene is part of something bigger, they are less likely to be OMGWTFBBQ PO'd. Just telling them this is enough to keep many a player at the table.

Anxe
2012-08-13, 11:55 PM
That sounds awesome. There's a dungeon just like that in KODT, so I'd feel like I was roleplaying with my favorite comic. I'd definitely stick around to see how that went.

I wouldn't use the Lich template though. It's quite powerful and it also has the phylactery bit which wouldn't make sense. Instead, I'd go with the Wight Template from Savage Species. Another issue is HP differential. The fighter types will now have the same amount of HP as their wizard buddies. You might want to keep CON and character class HD only for HPs. Otherwise the fighter classes will feel gypped.

Driderman
2012-08-14, 02:31 AM
I think the idea is great, but you'll have to make sure the players don't feel they were railroaded there. Giving them all the knowledge beforehand and letting them choose themselves feels like a cop-out to me. Too much kids gloves for my taste, but your mileage may vary.
Just make sure they had options to determine the nature of their destination before going there and if they don't use said options it's their own stupid mistake really. You "punishing" them with a free template and a cool plot twist certainly isn't the worst price to pay.

In the end you simply have to ask yourself: Would your players like this?
I personally think not being able to handle such a situation is the sign of a poor roleplayer but again, mileage may vary.

Edog
2012-08-14, 07:07 AM
Well, that depends on a lot of things. If they find the portal in a dungeon and jump through because it seems like a good idea, without finding out anything about it beforehand, that's stupid of them. When you're adventuring stupid things tend to get you killed; they should understand that they brought it upon themselves. Of course, this depends on the type of game you're running, and on your players. And, if you make it reversible, that should make it easier on them.

Otherwise, though, don't make it a complete surprise to them. Give them a chance to do some research, look through libraries, or ask some wise sage about what will happen to them if they go there. You could even make that a short quest in and of itself: "Only in the Blackened Library will you find the knowledge you seek. Are you willing to brave its perils? Or will you risk your very lives travelling to the Other Space unprepared?"

...That sounds fun, actually. I'll have to do something like that in my next game :smalltongue:

valadil
2012-08-14, 08:53 AM
Depends on the character. There are some who could roll with this and others who would be screwed. There's nothing worse than being invested in a character and having it taken away from you.

If you go with an RP light type of game, I think the players would be more amenable since they'd be more into the stats than their character. You might run into players who are worried about their build though, and are upset that they have a template they didn't get to optimize.

Either way, if it's clear that the undead phase of your game doesn't last too long I don't think anybody would be really pissed about it. In a larger campaign, I'm okay with taking 5 or 6 sessions with different mechanics if it's a small part of a big adventure. See: gender or alignment altering curses.

Finally, if your players are savvy they may know what happens in the plane of negative energy. If they find a way around it, or decide not to go because they have no way around it, where will your campaign go? I'm not saying you shouldn't run it because of this, I'm saying you should be ready for the players to bypass your twist and still be happy to run the game.

Rallicus
2012-08-14, 10:31 AM
As it's been mentioned, it depends on the people you're with and the characters they're playing. If you group is anything like theMycon, with some "this is my character there are many like it but this is mine" mentality, don't do it.

Also, as it's been said, you'll need to adjust the LG characters, especially if there's clerics and paladins with that alignment.

I don't agree with the suggestion to tell them beforehand. Maybe give them subtle clues, like "you feel an oppressive energy coming from the portal. Your body feels slightly weaker the closer you get to it." Don't straight up tell them what's going to happen.

But... again, it really depends on your players. This has the potential to really tick off the "3.5 players" (I use this term negatively to describe the mindset that character development > overcoming obstacles), but if your group is a more open to forced changes on their character and they prefer something a little different from the norm, I'd say go with it.

Jay R
2012-08-14, 10:36 AM
Think carefully about each player individually.

A player who likes trying out different kinds of characters? Probably enjoy it.

A player who invests in the role-playing the character? Probably annoyed.

Somebody who always plays Lawful Good, or a priest, or a paladin? Would hate it. It takes away what they play for.

A player who's just here to be with friends? Probably no problem.

Somebody who's here to kill things and take their stuff? Probably have fun with it.

But don't ask yourself if the group would enjoy it. Ask yourself if each individual player would enjoy it.

Lord Tyger
2012-08-14, 10:57 AM
But... again, it really depends on your players. This has the potential to really tick off the "3.5 players" (I use this term negatively to describe the mindset that character development > overcoming obstacles), but if your group is a more open to forced changes on their character and they prefer something a little different from the norm, I'd say go with it.

I think plenty of players who are into overcoming obstacles would be upset by "And now you're dead," too.

Emmerask
2012-08-14, 11:00 AM
Finally, if your players are savvy they may know what happens in the plane of negative energy. If they find a way around it, or decide not to go because they have no way around it, where will your campaign go? I'm not saying you shouldn't run it because of this, I'm saying you should be ready for the players to bypass your twist and still be happy to run the game.

Yes pretty much this, if they seem to know the plane they have to go to and they know which portal to use further investigation might reveal that it indeed is a negative energy plane.
Which also means they might want to search for protection before going there.

This is something you should really take into account and make a possibility, because else its kind of railroady, which some players really donīt like.

If they just step to the portal with no preparation whatsoever... well its their fault, I still laugh about the player who just jumped into the sphere of annihilation in Tomb of Horrors :smallbiggrin:

Overall what will make this good or bad is the execution of the idea not the idea itself, as a consequence of stupidness its good :smallwink:

Rallicus
2012-08-14, 12:59 PM
I think plenty of players who are into overcoming obstacles would be upset by "And now you're dead," too.

But they're not dead.

They're undead.

huttj509
2012-08-14, 02:13 PM
But they're not dead.

They're undead.

The issue is the in-between.

"Rocks fall everyone dies."

"Hey wait guys, come back, it was a plot poi-"

Zale
2012-08-14, 02:22 PM
But... again, it really depends on your players. This has the potential to really tick off the "3.5 players" (I use this term negatively to describe the mindset that character development > overcoming obstacles), but if your group is a more open to forced changes on their character and they prefer something a little different from the norm, I'd say go with it.

What?

So people shouldn't grow attached to their characters?

Wyntonian
2012-08-14, 02:30 PM
Nuclear Pulse Propulsion is the concept of building a spaceship with big shields behind it, and setting of a nuclear explosion behind it to shoot it off into space. It's both a neat and utterly stupid idea. Kinda like yours.

That sounded a bit meaner than I mean it. I mean, if you pull it off, awesome! But on the other hand, it has the potential to be like a spaceship powered by setting off a nuke right behind it. And, y'know. Asplode.

Personally, I'd avoid it. If you know your group really, really well, and you know they'd like it, make it happen, but also throw in something like a rumor of a sage off somewhere that has been studying how to bring an undead person back to life.

nedz
2012-08-14, 05:47 PM
The issue is the in-between.

"Rocks fall everyone dies."

"Hey wait guys, come back, it was a plot poi-"

Actually the real kicker would be :-

"Rocks fall everyone dies."

PCx "But I'm not dead yet"
DM "Of course you are, everyone is dead"
PCx "I got better"
DM "What ?"
PCx "I just realised that I'm immune to negative energy/planer effects"

Rallicus
2012-08-14, 06:32 PM
What?

So people shouldn't grow attached to their characters?

I could go on and on about how I feel the quality of tabletop gaming has decreased in recent times, specifically thanks to 3.5, but I'll refrain from that for now.

Instead I'll leave you with a short, hopefully concise sentence that describes my answer to the question you posed:

If people want to get attached to their characters and develop them, do away with the dice entirely; do away with the holding hands approach; do away with everything and freeform it.

I know I'll get a lot of flak for this, especially since I'm in the minority on these forums, but it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Now you may go back to your regularly scheduled discussion, and if you really feel the need to justify your play style to me, go ahead and get the last word -- though I won't reply to it.

Kaun
2012-08-14, 06:43 PM
Instead I'll leave you with a short, hopefully concise sentence that describes my answer to the question you posed:

If people want to get attached to their characters and develop them, do away with the dice entirely; do away with the holding hands approach; do away with everything and freeform it.

I'm not sure i would label that as concise.

Vague maybe?

What exactly do you mean?

Nepenthe
2012-08-14, 08:08 PM
There's an incredibly simple solution here. Tell your players to make undead characters. Tell them about the portal and how they became undead as backstory during your campaign pitch. Your players get to play the characters they want. You get to sleep soundly knowing that they won't somehow subvert the whole portal plotline. Everyone wins.

Really, what is there to be gained by duping your players except some smug satisfaction at having pulled one over on them?

Riverdance
2012-08-14, 09:49 PM
There's an incredibly simple solution here. Tell your players to make undead characters. Tell them about the portal and how they became undead as backstory during your campaign pitch. Your players get to play the characters they want. You get to sleep soundly knowing that they won't somehow subvert the whole portal plotline. Everyone wins.

Really, what is there to be gained by duping your players except some smug satisfaction at having pulled one over on them?

While you lose the element of surprise, I think this is by far the best approach. It circumvents all the major potential obstacles that I can think of such as negative energy immunity, clerics, lingering resentment, etc...

So long as you aren't really attached to springing sudden death on them, I highly support this approach.

nedz
2012-08-14, 10:09 PM
There's an incredibly simple solution here. Tell your players to make undead characters. Tell them about the portal and how they became undead as backstory during your campaign pitch. Your players get to play the characters they want. You get to sleep soundly knowing that they won't somehow subvert the whole portal plotline. Everyone wins.

Really, what is there to be gained by duping your players except some smug satisfaction at having pulled one over on them?

I think that the element of shock and awe is all that this idea has going for it, lose that and you might as well not bother.

Madfellow
2012-08-14, 10:54 PM
Yeah, I'm not trying to trick them. It was more of supplying them with an "Oh crap" moment and what I thought could be a cool plot twist. And the idea is that this happens toward the end of the campaign, not right at the beginning.

Gavinfoxx
2012-08-15, 12:34 AM
Don't use Lich. You want something with no LA. Necropolitan will do... BUT.. give it all the benefits that can possibly be pumped into Necropolitan, even without the 'normal situation' of that. Usually, this means you are turned into a Necropolitan by a level 8 Dread Necromancer, with the feats Corpsecrafter, Bolster Resistance, Nimble Bones, and Hardened Flesh, while inside the radius of a Desecrate effect (as if he was wearing a Deadwalker's Ring), in the effect of an altar to an evil god.

Of course, make all of the hit points of the characters exactly 6.5 hp/level, except the first hit dice, which would be 12 (regardless of class). These myriad benefits would give them:

Con --
+2 Natural Armor
+4 untyped bonus to Initiative
+10' untyped bonus to land speed
+4 Enhancement to Strength
+4 Enhancement to Dexterity
+6 Hit points per hit dice
+4 Turn Resistance
Undead type, with all that implies.
LA+0 (unlike Lich!)

And go with that...

Madfellow
2012-08-15, 10:53 AM
Well the lich template doesn't grant all that much. There's the standard undead package (d12 hit die, no Con score, immune to poisons and sneak attacks and such), a negative energy attack that's actually kinda crappy compared to anything else they'll have at their level, and the phylactery. And I was actually thinking of making them liches without phylacteries, so they don't have a Get Out of Death Free card. All things considered, it's not a huge bump in power, especially considering that EVERYTHING on the death plane is also undead, not just the PCs.

nedz
2012-08-15, 12:04 PM
Well there are a number of choices of Template, obviously you would want to avoid the mindless ones because that would be a little tedious.

Death Knight from MM2, maybe a little strong ?

Necropolitan from LM, which is very light and avoids having to re-roll HP. You might want to waive the 1 level + 1,000 xp cost though since that would be unpopular and unfair since the PCs didn't choose this template.

Dry Lich from the Sand book

Lich from the MM

Swordwraith from FF - fairly lightweight

There are also various flavourful templates relating to Ghouls, Vampires, Kyuss etc. which are probably not what you want.

Then there are the incorporeal ones: Ghost, Ghost Brute, Spectral and Umbral; all of which could be interesting.

The Deathless template from BoED would be my choice, mainly because its non evil; though you might want to tweak some of the conditions

The Random NPC
2012-08-15, 12:07 PM
Well the lich template doesn't grant all that much. There's the standard undead package (d12 hit die, no Con score, immune to poisons and sneak attacks and such), a negative energy attack that's actually kinda crappy compared to anything else they'll have at their level, and the phylactery. And I was actually thinking of making them liches without phylacteries, so they don't have a Get Out of Death Free card. All things considered, it's not a huge bump in power, especially considering that EVERYTHING on the death plane is also undead, not just the PCs.

A lich has a +4 Level Adjustment, and requires 11 caster levels. It is simpler to apply the Necropolitan template because it causes no change in the characters, other than a loss of 1 level.

EDIT: Aren't the Deathless created with positive energy? Seems odd that they would be spontaneously created on the negative energy plane.

dps
2012-08-15, 12:55 PM
I see all sorts of red flags in the opening post.

I could go into a lot more detail, but let me just say it sounds like a bad idea.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-17, 06:41 PM
Actually this type of scenario happened to me. Maybe you can learn from it.

My character died by absolute bull**** DM-fiat. My Wizard buffed up for a boss fight, but was no-save teleported to a far-realm plane when DM specifically said there's only one plane (plus Ethereal) and planar travel is impossible, where he just said "all your buffs are gone" (no save, no CL check, not one die rolled) and started hammering on my pathetic d4s till they ran out...

I cursed at him for a few minutes mid-session, then walked,that session and never came back (other factors were involved, but this was the final straw). My character was supposed to become a God later. I was still pissed as hell, never came back, and never will.

NichG
2012-08-17, 07:01 PM
Make it stem from player choice, even if its a subtle choice. Do something like:

"You push into the portal, but it feels like swimming through treacle. Every step you take is exhausting. It feels like you're sick and dying. Do you press on?"

Then if the player continues:

"You come to a black curtain. Behind it there are faint shadows of some other place that you can barely make out. Do you proceed through the curtain?"

That final choice, to push through, is the moment the character has accepted undeath. Up until then someone could back out. Make sure that the other PCs don't know what happens, make sure whoever goes through doesn't immediately return or say 'hey guyz, I'm a lich now! Woo!' or whatever.

Also, if they're clever and short circuit it, let them make progress with those ideas. Someone puts on Death Ward? Maybe he can't actually make it through the curtain - his Death Ward protects him from it. Thats a hint at what'll happen. Say someone has something that lets them fake being undead, then they can go through with a Death Ward and they're kind of bubbled off in a little necromantic soap bubble. Of course if the bubble pops they just die - no undeath, no transition (or get randomly planeshifted if you're nice). Thats the risk for trying to be somewhere the living cannot.

Honestly, being undead doesn't generally mess with most classes. It'd be a pain for a cleric of Lathander, but it'd kind of be an interesting redemption story (or at least have that potential if the player was flexible). Having your alignment set to evil would, but just being undead wouldn't. The bigger problem is those characters who have invested heavily in their Con scores get screwed out of their investment. I'd let those characters gain any such point-buy points back to place wherever they wanted or perhaps even to trade up to a better undead template for free (as in no LA). People who use Con for class abilities are really in trouble though, but thats fortunately rather rare (I guess monstrous PCs whose save DCs work off of Con would have that issue, but those abilities would default to Cha if they're undead anyhow).

Emmerask
2012-08-17, 07:07 PM
Actually this type of scenario happened to me. Maybe you can learn from it.

My character died by absolute bull**** DM-fiat. My Wizard buffed up for a boss fight, but was no-save teleported to a far-realm plane when DM specifically said there's only one plane (plus Ethereal) and planar travel is impossible, where he just said "all your buffs are gone" (no save, no CL check, not one die rolled) and started hammering on my pathetic d4s till they ran out...

I cursed at him for a few minutes mid-session, then walked,that session and never came back (other factors were involved, but this was the final straw). My character was supposed to become a God later. I was still pissed as hell, never came back, and never will.


Well there are some pretty big differences though, plane shift ordinarily has a will save and spell resistance and a melee touch attack (if used offensively) attached to it.

While they walk willingly to the portal and step through to this other plane, some simple investigation might reveal that they should bring some protection with them, so its more on the side of pc stupidity then dm fiat (like your case).

If there is no way for the pcs however to protect themselves from that then yes its prett railroady and boarders on fiat.

Slipperychicken
2012-08-18, 01:10 AM
If there is no way for the pcs however to protect themselves from that then yes its prett railroady and boarders on fiat.

I think the tier restriction is supposed to ensure this, and goes a long way toward doing so; Tier 4 and 5 characters are very poorly equipped for any kind of extraplanar expedition, and would be fools to do one without someone able to casting Plane Shift. A Wizard with Analyze Portal could easily tell where it goes, and plenty of spells can protect against negative energy planar effects for as long as it takes. I know I would cast Analyze Portal if a Wizard of mine ran into such a portal (they always have Spontaneous Divination, so no problems with it being prepared that day). At worst, toss in a language-capable summon, have it come back and describe the other side as a free action, and see what your Knowledge skill turns up.

Madfellow
2012-08-18, 11:59 AM
Well the tier thing wasn't meant to prevent planar magic. I picked the lower tiers because they have a good mix of casters and noncasters that are pretty well balanced against each other, as opposed to the higher tiers where everyone's a caster. Although, the lower tiers don't get a whole lot of planar magic. It does make the prospect of planar travel more dangerous. However, I did make sure that all the planes in my cosmos (except for the negative energy and positive energy planes) are safely traversible without magic.

Also, the undead thing won't affect the players' alignments. And they will have the chance to reverse the effect later.

Driderman
2012-08-18, 01:17 PM
Well the tier thing wasn't meant to prevent planar magic. I picked the lower tiers because they have a good mix of casters and noncasters that are pretty well balanced against each other, as opposed to the higher tiers where everyone's a caster. Although, the lower tiers don't get a whole lot of planar magic. It does make the prospect of planar travel more dangerous. However, I did make sure that all the planes in my cosmos (except for the negative energy and positive energy planes) are safely traversible without magic.

Also, the undead thing won't affect the players' alignments. And they will have the chance to reverse the effect later.

I'll reiterate what I said earlier: Go with it if you think your players are mature enough to handle you modifying their beautiful unique snowflake characters, and make sure that smart players that investigate and prepare get rewarded for it somehow.

Madfellow
2012-08-18, 03:10 PM
I'll be sure to.

Roguenewb
2012-08-21, 10:12 PM
This could just explode if someone deathwards up on you. Multiple people have brought it up, but you haven't clarified your plan for that. If you don't have a plan for resistance immunity, you can't do it.

2xMachina
2012-08-22, 09:01 AM
Make sure this change doesn't nerf any players.

Some chars NEED the Con (like barbarian). Removing their con will screw them over.

Gavinfoxx
2012-08-22, 09:04 AM
Tell the players "Don't make player characters that need con to function, and dump con. Trust me."

Ashtagon
2012-08-22, 10:44 AM
This was actually a plot point in a published D&D module.

M5: Talons of Night (http://www.thepiazza.org.uk/shop/doku.php/m5_talons_of_night)

(ehh, ignore the shop bit. I use those pages to collect relevant links for all the old modules)

Lysander
2012-08-22, 10:57 AM
Some character builds would no longer work as undead, and it would be annoying to have to redesign their character sheet even if you let them swap out classes.

Why not start the game off with no character sheet? Just have the players roleplay being sent on this mission to investigate the portal. If there's combat, have them auto-win any skirmishes against the undead. They can think of character backstories but not pin themselves to any specific class just yet.

Then after they enter the portal (making it clear from the get-go that entering the portal is the campaign and railroading ends after this point) kill them and raise them as undead. Now make them create character sheets and pick classes and skills that take into account who they were but are still useful as liches.

Now they can quest to escape this realm and also quest for a way to become alive again if they wish. And instead of feeling like arbitrary death besetting your character mid-stream, it now is the premise for an adventure.

Madfellow
2012-08-22, 11:01 AM
Regarding the Con score, I figure if anyone plays a class that requires one I can let them keep it.

Death Ward only lasts for one minute per level.

And the no character sheets idea wouldn't work, because this is supposed to happen toward the end of the campaign, not at the beginning.

And which builds don't work as undead?

Wyntonian
2012-08-22, 11:47 AM
And which builds don't work as undead?

Well, barbarians gets shafted, as one of their shticks (d12 hd) gets handed out to everyone and their familiar, even the squishy wizards. Likewise, they no longer can Rage for more than 3 rounds at a time (barring feats), and half the bonus thereof (+4 con) is useless.

I'm sure there are plenty of others that use Con extensively, but this is probably one of the biggest.

Emmerask
2012-08-22, 11:58 AM
Well Fist of the Forrest gets con bonus to ac that would be kind of bad for such a build ^^

Rainbownaga
2012-08-22, 12:10 PM
If you're going to do something like this, make an NPC clearly responsible for leading them to a one way portal to the negative plane.

Then give them the opportunity to kill him (or her) when they come back.

They should get opportunities and hints that he/she is not on the level, but only enough to cover yourself that it was their choice. Making the 'questgiver' laugh hysterically through the one-way barrier once they've gone will emphasise the point that it was the bad guy (not you) who screwed them.

Ironlion45
2012-08-22, 03:24 PM
Yeah, I'm not trying to trick them. It was more of supplying them with an "Oh crap" moment and what I thought could be a cool plot twist. And the idea is that this happens toward the end of the campaign, not right at the beginning.

The biggest challenge here is how it is presented to the players. If you treat it like a challenge that can be overcome, part of the plot- then that could be rather interesting.

In this way, if you look at it as a sort of variation on the Baleful Polymorph (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BalefulPolymorph), The players may very well go along with it; as long as they understand ooc that it's temporary, part of the adventure, and winning will come with a way to undo it.

king.com
2012-08-22, 11:29 PM
I walked into this thread thinking that no matter what it is, its going to be terrible but....THATS AWESOME! As a player I would absolutely love stuff like this to happen. Your left with that moral decision of sticking with your own or following through on actions to stop the undead army. You can decide to keep your sweet undead powers or try and cure yourself. This would be a fantastic twist. I really REALLY hope you follow through.

Also I dont understand the problem people are having with it. Your not dead, its D&D, literally nothing is permanent if you dont want it to be. It just leaves you with a lot of cool options and decisions to try and make and shakes the situation up to try and make something more interesting options appear.

If its builds that people are freaking out about, just pick a template that is more relevent to what they are doing and go with it. Have fun and good luck!