Q: My core TWF ranger/fighter build. Ideas?

[darioun]

Hi Guys!

Since I'm new to this forum, I'd like to introduce my current (and first ever!) char, Darioun, a half-elf two weapon fighting ranger/fighter and how I plan to continue this build. I'm currently on lvl 6, so there's quite some stuff to still consider. If you got some good tips for me, that would be awesome.

First off, we're using a few books only, meaning 3.5 PH, DMG, Complete Adventurer, Complete Warrior, Complete Divine, the Magic Item Compendium and MM1&2 (I'm not sure for MM3). Unfortunately (especially for our Monk/Rogue) no Complete Scoundrel.

My stats:
STR 17
DEX 17
CON 14
INT 11
WIS 13
CHA 12

I chose the TWF path since i want to build a melee crit dealer with two scimitars.

My feats so far:
LVL1: Weapon focus (scimitar)
LVL3: Diehard (sounded cool with the endurance, but would change it to Natural Bond, if I had the chance)
LVL6: Oversized Two Weapon Fighting

My equipment:
2 Master scimitars (with +9/+4 AB each)
1 Chain shirt +1
1 Amulet of Natural Armor (+1)
1 Ring of Protection (+1)
Thus AC is at 20 at the moment.
1 Bracers with +2CON (forgot the name, sorry ;))
2 Master warhammers (with +8/+3 each) for enemies immune to crits and/or with damage reduction from slashing weapons.

Favored Enemies:
Orcs (+4)
Magical beasts (+2), both due to the story of my char.
Both were pretty good choices, since we just faced two orc camps in our campaign and continuously trip over magical beasts in random encounters.
On ranger lvl10, I guess I'll go for Undead, but that will depend on how the campaign will continue.

Animal Companion:
Wolf with a studded leather, but I guess during the next time lapse, I'll change that to a riding dog trained for war.

Gold at the moment:
~ 6k

My plan is to do 4 levels of fighter now with
Power crit on fighter lvl1
Improved crit on fighter lvl3
Weapon Specialization (scimitar) on fighter lvl4

What I thought about was to become an Elusive Target, so I think I'll take Dodge on lvl9, Mobility on lvl12 and finally Elusive Target on lvl15.

So, what do you guys think? Any recommendations for my build? Better feats for crit dealer? Should I leave the Elusive Target path and use those 3 feats for strengthening my animal companion? What could be the benefits there?

Looking for some ideas on how to optimize this build considering that we progress slowly (playing now for about a year to get to lvl 6) and don't have too much money. Well, we still got a ****load of loot to sell somewhere, so I'd wager we'll get around 8-10k of gold by the time we're on lvl7.
I'm thinking two +1 scimitars soon with frost/ice enhancements, that would be a nice and kind of cheap treat for the next levels... Any other suggestions?

Thanks in advance!
all the best, Darioun

[ericgrau]

If you have a cleric or wizard or druid in the party then a spell storing weapon is always great, and 2 spell storing weapons are even better. Consider inflict serious wounds, vampiric touch or poison. There are lots of other options too look at the 3rd level lists for each class for any spell with "Target: ..." in its header.

[eggs]

You might consider getting some retraining in (your current feats read like a list of shiny weak trap options) and heading into Dervish - damage bonuses might continue to be a bit of a problem, but it would at least solve the typical problem two-weapon fighters have with actually gaining the opportunity to two-weapon fight, and it shares requirements with Elusive Target (which is a very good feat, but which isn't really worth 9 levels' worth of feats on its own).

[GenghisDon]

It's fine & hopefully fun for a (around here) "low op" game.

I might very well stay ranger all the way for your first character. If you really are more interested in "warrior with 2 swords" take the fighter levels (2,4 or 6) & forget the ranger stuff; your animal companion, favoured enemy, ect, will fall behind too much to matter/be effective.

I house rule ranger's AC are level-3, not 1/2 level, so perhaps I'm biased in that.

natural bond was a better feat, but you can't take it before you can HAVE an AC (L4+ for a ranger).

It's too bad you can't use PH2 for some nice 2WF feats like 2 weapon pounce or rend, but if 2 scimitars is the key for you, the dervish &/or the tempest (both in OKed books for u) are good choices. They both need dodge & mobility, so picking them up BEFORE the scimitar enhancers would probably be better.

I'd say keep your veteran wolf & if warbeast training is oked...it makes more sense on him, your loyal companion. If you stop leveling in ranger (and maybe if you continue, due to crocked rules) it won't matter anyway, unless you can take leadership feat & make a combined cohort/companion (with DM aid/fiat).

EDIT: with current int 11, dervish & tempest both would require some investment in intelligence & your character is already hungry for a point in all those odd scores. Maybe you can convince your DM to grant +1 to all scores at L6, 12, 18, ect, like I give my players. L6 would have been AWESOME for you. I wouldn't count on that, however.

[darioun]

first off: thanks a lot for your answers, all very helpful. I'm gonna look into the tempest/dervish classes, we got kindof a "single prestige class" policy in our game, so let's see about that. with the current build already on lvl6, there's only that much possible.


It's fine & hopefully fun for a (around here) "low op" game.

absolutely fun. I've seen a lot of power gamer's characters on the internet and I have to say, sometime some feats and equipment from certain books would be nice, but I'm well content with what we have.


I might very well stay ranger all the way for your first character. If you really are more interested in "warrior with 2 swords" take the fighter levels (2,4 or 6) & forget the ranger stuff; your animal companion, favoured enemy, ect, will fall behind too much to matter/be effective.

Well, true, a full ranger char might be interesting, especially with all the magic. I think the animal companion of the ranger would never matter a lot anyhow.
I just have the feeling that the effectiveness of our paladin and especially of our half orc with his spiked chains and the his improved tripping (also on AoOs) makes us other characters quite obsolete (in battle). In order to balance that a bit, I wanted to become more effective in melee as well, and I think that makes sense with a TWF ranger. if I'd gone for magic, I'd chosen a ranged ranger.


I house rule ranger's AC are level-3, not 1/2 level, so perhaps I'm biased in that.

Positively no houserules in our campaign.


natural bond was a better feat, but you can't take it before you can HAVE an AC (L4+ for a ranger).

well and now it's too late.


It's too bad you can't use PH2 for some nice 2WF feats like 2 weapon pounce or rend, but if 2 scimitars is the key for you, the dervish &/or the tempest (both in OKed books for u) are good choices. They both need dodge & mobility, so picking them up BEFORE the scimitar enhancers would probably be better.

I know. We just don't pysically have the books, so we can't use them. An houserule if you will. It's ok once you accepted it :)


I'd say keep your veteran wolf & if warbeast training is oked...it makes more sense on him, your loyal companion. If you stop leveling in ranger (and maybe if you continue, due to crocked rules) it won't matter anyway, unless you can take leadership feat & make a combined cohort/companion (with DM aid/fiat).

EDIT: with current int 11, dervish & tempest both would require some investment in intelligence & your character is already hungry for a point in all those odd scores. Maybe you can convince your DM to grant +1 to all scores at L6, 12, 18, ect, like I give my players. L6 would have been AWESOME for you. I wouldn't count on that, however.

As far as the dervish/tempest is concerned: no +1 on any level, no additional feats, nothing. Straight RAW. I know, with all the odd scores, it would be AWESOME, but ain't gonna happen ;)

I gotta look into that warbeast training thing, heard/read about it, but didn't find it so far. Got a link maybe?

About the wolf: it's pretty new, my first (and fully trained) one got between two fire elementals and got wounds i couldn't quench :smallannoyed:. Ever since we're constantly running around in this pretty nice open space and open ended campaign with a lot of possibility to actually roleplay, but without any time to train... so about 5 months ago I got joined by this untrained wolf Tiri, which only knows to attack and to come. This part of the campaign is almost done however and after that, we'll have a timejump, finally leaving me with the possibility to train. The only thing is: A bit better stats might make the companion already that much more effective (up to now, my wolf just runs off on the first or second hit... and with a AC of 16 (don't have the master studded leather yet) he of course always gets hit, so I might as well play without him.
With a fortified riding dog, that might change a bit, allowing me a flanking bonus for some more rounds than zero ;)

[GenghisDon]

warbeast template is in MM2 (which is an ok book for you, correct?)

+1 HD, +10 spd, +3 str & con, +2 wis, +1 spot & listen

in your case: train 2 months (handle animal DC 20+HD)

Not that it's going to matter much, a L3 animal companion isn't going to be useful in combat long past L6. I'd eventually look for an eagle, owl or simular scout/guard, once you tire of companions getting killed.

I tend to restrict PRC's in simulat manner to your group (although sometimes a second one is fine). We don't optimize anywhere near as much as many here, either.

I think, at the levels you are entering, that elusive target may save you from getting crushed by giant X with a 2 handed weapon & power attack. You are entering their hey day levels. Foes with reach will become very common. I'll repeat that that tree/idea might be more important in the short/medium term.

Some multi class to make you more effective without PRC
Rogue (1: sneak att, 2: evasion, 3 sneak att, 4 uncanny dodge, skills for all)
Barbarian (1 fast move, rage, 2 uncanny dodge)
Fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, ect, the feats)

as half elf you get favoured class:any, but NEVER take the multi class XP penalty if you can avoid it. You are going to have it designated to ranger 6 (probably forever), so obviously not all the above, or not to level X.

I'd probably go Tempest at some point

The crit improving feats probably just aren't worth it, as BTB they don't stack in 3.5. I'd strongly suggest using gear instead to go crit fishing.

Best,
Don

[Eldariel]

Is there any chance you could switch your Int, Wis and Cha around? That would qualify you for Dervish. You could ask your DM since, y'know, you didn't, at the time of making the character, know of the class and thus couldn't prepare for the requirements.

Player's Handbook II has rules for retraining in any case, so while you lack the book you could point to DM that it's officially allowed so he could consider it...? Dervish would help a lot. That would, first of all, allow you to dual wield Scimitars without needing Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting which would free up a feat. Second, it would get you scaling damage bonuses and the ability to full attack on the move. Third, you'd get very respectable defensive competence.

You will probably never be quite as strong as the Half-Orc Tripper but you'd definitely have your own niché, being able to move around the battle quite freely and deliver painful flurries of blows while being quite hard to both hit and kill (decent AC, good speed, Tumble, Elusive Target, etc.).


The standard build is Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish. In your case, however, Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Dervish would work just as well, remain true to your character and frankly make more sense (not to mention, be better). This would qualify you for Weapon Specialization which isn't the worst use of a feat ever for a TWFer. It does suck to delay Dervish by one but I'm guessing this is the best your DM might agree to anyways; hell, even this sounds unlikely but it never hurts to ask does it? It is straight RAW legal; it just requires you to change around your character decisions a bit and that seems well founded given you did not originally know you'd be interested in this path.

But yeah, if given the chance here's what I'd do:
Str 17
Dex 17
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 11 (simple reordering here qualifies you for Dervish just fine)

Ranger 1/Fighter 4/Ranger +1 (take TWF and ITWF here)

1. WF: Scimitar
2F. Combat Expertise
3. Dodge
3F. Mobility
5F. Weapon Specialization
6R. Two-Weapon Fighting
6. Improved Two-Weapon Fighting

Down the line you'd then be able to pick up e.g. Improved Trip (you have the Strength; while you can't by default use it with Scimitars, feat Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) would allow that and since it's in SRD it might just fly) or Elusive Target. It's worth noting that the third option of Elusive Target works very well with Improved Trip so you might want to consider getting both in any case (especially since you already have Combat Expertise).

As you probably already know, you want to put all your level-up scores to Strength. Human or Elf would've worked better than Half-Elf but guess you can't change that (Elf would get you the Dex necessary for Greater TWF without needing items or anything, and Human would get you a bonus feat; as you notice, you really want a lot of feats as a TWFer).


But yeah, if I were you I'd ask your DM to rebuild your character a bit on the grounds of finding out about the class you really want to play (Dervish) only after deciding on the character. Since, let's face it, you want to be a two-weapon fighting double Scimitar wielder...which is Dervish exactly.


If this kind of a rework is not an option, I suppose the best you can do is continue Ranger and focus on your Favored Enemies. You'll be very effective against them tho less so against everyone else (when you get full attacks; the biggest advantage in Dervish is that you get full attacks easily of course).

EDIT: Oh yeah, loot. Either way, here's what I'd look at:
- +2 Strength item (Gloves, Belt, something)
- +2 Dexterity item (again the same)
- +2 Constitution item (see above)
- +1 Elemental (any) Scimitars are fine; if you're going Crits, Keen is obviously a good idea (saves you Improved Critical) or you could get Scabbard of Keen Edges (superlate, you could get Prismatic Burst Scimitars). Damage reduction is the bane of TWFers so look at some of the weapon crystals from magic item compendium that allow penetrating DR. Also, oils of Align Weapon and such. Maybe even weapon properties.
- Boots of Speed (absolute must when you can afford them; move speed, extra attacks, to hit and AC)
- Belt of Battle (just really, really good; move as a swift action and full attack for instance, or full attack twice in one round)
- Winged Vest or a similar affordable item of flight ASAP. Can't overemphasize this; you're melee so you need to be able to reach your opponent even if it's a flying Demon, Dragon or Wizard. Celestial Armor if your Dex ever reaches 26 is a great option.
- Anklets of Translocation, Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker or similar mini teleportation items are golden for repositioning when necessary.


Obviously Cloak of Resistance and the like should eventually get upgraded too. See Magic Item Compendium for rules of combining basic abilities (AC bonuses, stat bonuses, resistance bonuses) to special items.

EDIT#2: Oh, and don't forget you have the ability to use Wands of Ranger spells whether you get the retraining or not (one level in Ranger suffices for that). So you might want to invest in few Wands of Cure Light Wounds together with the party to ensure you can heal up after tight fights without burning all the spell slots from your Cleric (they're only 750gp a piece for 1d8+1*50 healing; averages 5.5*50 or 275 HP healed overall, a fairly efficient source of out-of-combat healing).

Though Lesser Vigor from Complete Divine is actually even more efficient so go with that if you have the choice. Worth going through Complete Divine and Adventurer for other spells that might interest you in Wands as well.

[ericgrau]

It's hard to find a better item option for improved crit (one that's worth it). In core it takes level 15 or so. Really I'd say 17. That's how long until other damage upgrades no longer cost less. I'd just grab the feat and take more fighter levels if you're short on feats. You could beg the party wizard to cast keen edge but it only lasts 10 min/level so it only works well in dungeons not in the wilderness. Dunno what kind of encounters you'll hit. Unless there's some other cheap crit item I'm missing I'd just grab the feat.

Mobility is also handy for bypassing reach and other sources of movement AoOs even before you get elusive target. You need to maintain your AC for that to work well, but including the +1 dodge bonus a +5 is usually enough to keep you safe. Combines even better with the ranger spell longstrider for an extra 10 feet movement speed. Though teleport trumps all that.

I think in the future magical beasts are going to become more common than orcs unless there's an orc related plot. Might be better to focus on them + whatever other new foe you meet and no longer increase orc. If you really have nothing good to pick then undead is a good default, or the dominant local type (e.g., human, or whatever rules the area). Assuming you even get more ranger levels any time soon; you may need other classes.

[darioun]

hey don!

thanks for the swift reply!


warbeast template is in MM2 (which is an ok book for you, correct?)

+1 HD, +10 spd, +3 str & con, +2 wis, +1 spot & listen

in your case: train 2 months (handle animal DC 20+HD)

just checked with my DM: got no mm2, just 1&3 :-(


Not that it's going to matter much, a L3 animal companion isn't going to be useful in combat long past L6. I'd eventually look for an eagle, owl or simular scout/guard, once you tire of companions getting killed.

DM might be cool with your animal companion lvl -3 idea. let's see. i was already thinking about a flying companion, i want to give the riding dog a try though. with the lvl-3 thing, the animal companion might actually be of help even after lvl6.


I think, at the levels you are entering, that elusive target may save you from getting crushed by giant X with a 2 handed weapon & power attack. You are entering their hey day levels. Foes with reach will become very common. I'll repeat that that tree/idea might be more important in the short/medium term.

I absolutely see your point. that will take 3 levels of fighter. well, 2 lvls for AC +5 against AoOs of opponents with reach, that sounds pretty ok... and then 1 more not to get the power attacks and or trip the attacker. i guess i'll really do that. thanks!


Some multi class to make you more effective without PRC
Rogue (1: sneak att, 2: evasion, 3 sneak att, 4 uncanny dodge, skills for all)
Barbarian (1 fast move, rage, 2 uncanny dodge)
Fighter (1, 2, 4, 6, ect, the feats)

as half elf you get favoured class:any, but NEVER take the multi class XP penalty if you can avoid it. You are going to have it designated to ranger 6 (probably forever), so obviously not all the above, or not to level X.

I think I'll stick to the ranger/fighter plan with an emphasis on the ranger for all the natural magic stuff... even with 4 fighter levels I can come up to 4x lvl1, 4x lvl2, 3x lvl3 and 3x lvl4 divine spells, that sounds about right, and if i just summon a lot of low level nature's allies, that will cause enough confusion to give the cleric the time to buff up and tank.


The crit improving feats probably just aren't worth it, as BTB they don't stack in 3.5. I'd strongly suggest using gear instead to go crit fishing.

hmm, you mean keen stuff and the like... the only problem there is the price (we don't get too much gold) and that in case we find some magic weapons, it's kind of lost. with the feat, i can use whatever scimitar i find and go critical.
i might delay the crit stuff a bit as you suggested above, but i guess i'll stick to it anyhow. to have 1/4 of the attacks to be threats is pretty neat, and with a +4 on the confirmations, they about 3/4 of those hits will actually hit i guess... with the normal 1w6+3 damage, that will be a major boost.

all the best, darioun

[darioun]

Is there any chance you could switch your Int, Wis and Cha around? That would qualify you for Dervish. You could ask your DM since, y'know, you didn't, at the time of making the character, know of the class and thus couldn't prepare for the requirements.

...


no PH2, thus no retraining, no stat switching.

thanks a lot for the heads up on the items, will look into that!

br,
darioun

[darioun]

It's hard to find a better item option for improved crit (one that's worth it). In core it takes level 15 or so. Really I'd say 17. That's how long until other damage upgrades no longer cost less. I'd just grab the feat and take more fighter levels if you're short on feats. You could beg the party wizard to cast keen edge but it only lasts 10 min/level so it only works well in dungeons not in the wilderness. Dunno what kind of encounters you'll hit. Unless there's some other cheap crit item I'm missing I'd just grab the feat.

that's also what i got to know from reading some stuff... i think i'll stick to the crits, but maybe at a later level (see above).
we got no party wizard, the group played an arcane campaign before i joined and it ended up being so off balance that they banned arcane stuff.


Mobility is also handy for bypassing reach and other sources of movement AoOs even before you get elusive target. You need to maintain your AC for that to work well, but including the +1 dodge bonus a +5 is usually enough to keep you safe. Combines even better with the ranger spell longstrider for an extra 10 feet movement speed. Though teleport trumps all that.

yeah, i'll do the elusive target, and i guess I'll do it asap. thanks!


I think in the future magical beasts are going to become more common than orcs unless there's an orc related plot. Might be better to focus on them + whatever other new foe you meet and no longer increase orc. If you really have nothing good to pick then undead is a good default, or the dominant local type (e.g., human, or whatever rules the area). Assuming you even get more ranger levels any time soon; you may need other classes.

since i'll only have ranger lvl 10 and 15 for favored enemies, I'll go undead +4 on 10 and then maybe elemental or aberration or something on 15. this is still to far out to see. at the moment, the orc thing fits pretty good, also i have to say thet the DM tries to give all of the party members their moments to shine, so i guess the big orc fight we just had was partly because i chose favored enemy orc.

up next: undead and drows on the way to attack the city we're currently trying to calm after riots.it's gonna make for a very interesting season final, i'm sure!

all the best, darioun

[King Awesome]

up next: undead and drows on the way to attack the city we're currently trying to calm after riots.it's gonna make for a very interesting season final, i'm sure!

Winter Darkness is coming.

[darioun]

Winter Darkness is coming.

yeah, but goddamn slowly, it seems.