[PF Only] Agile, mobile ... Paladin?

[Arutema]

So with Tieflings being allowed into Pathfinder Society play, I've decided I want to make my newest character a Rakshasa-spawn Paladin.

Rakshasa-spawn get +2 Dex, +2 Cha, and -2 Wis.

I will probably go scimitar and Dervish Dance (use Dex to determine scimitar attack rolls and damage.) However, it and Weapon Finesse (pre-requesiste) chew up two of my precious feat slots.

I also have a boon that could give me free Wakizashi proficiency, and was considering a dual-wakizashi build as well. This gives more attacks when smiting, but denies me a free hand to use Lay on hands with. (And now Weapon Finesse and Two-Weapon Fighting eat up my first two feats.

I know archery is good, but would prefer a melee build.

So, my many questions: What would you advise for ability scores? (20 point buy). How can I keep this character in light armor and have a decent AC for front-line fighting? Is there any way to boost my speed past 30' without multiclassing? And what are good feats once I have the basics for the build out of the way?

[Novawurmson]

Unless I'm missing something, that Tiefling variant is from Pathfinder 25: The Bastards of Erebus, which is not on the list of material approved for PFS organized play (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources).

[Arutema]

Unless I'm missing something, that Tiefling variant is from Pathfinder 25: The Bastards of Erebus, which is not on the list of material approved for PFS organized play (http://paizo.com/pathfinderSociety/about/additionalResources).

It was reprinted in Blood Of Fiends, which is on the allowed list.

[Novawurmson]

Edit: One second while I look this over.

Edit: Well, I'll be.

[Chromascope3D]

So, why exactly do you want to be a paladin? Healing? RP'ing?

[Arutema]

Healing, hitting evil things hard, and the RP aspect of redemption.

[Novawurmson]

Well, now that I've embarrassed myself...

I would recommend against a light armor/Dex based build for a Paladin if you're worried about AC, given that light armor builds are measurably statistically (http://faustusnotes.wordpress.com/2012/06/28/the-epidemiology-of-pathfinder-fast-fighters-are-not-good-fighters/) worse (http://faustusnotes.wordpress.com/2012/07/05/the-epidemiology-of-pathfinder-critical-revision/) than Strength-based builds. Going with a THW and Power Attack frees up a feat (and a hand), and gives you more damage. Think about it - you can use a Greatsword for 2d6+1.5 Str damage at level 1 for one feat, or you can have 1d6+Dex damage at level 3 for two feats.

That being said, if you're completely set on doing a light armor build, I would vaguely recommend TWF. You can at least get some bonus from an investment in Str, and hitting multiple times will get you more damage from Smite.

[Arutema]

That being said, if you're completely set on doing a light armor build, I would vaguely recommend TWF. You can at least get some bonus from an investment in Str, and hitting multiple times will get you more damage from Smite.

Hmm, I just noticed the Double-chained Kama (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/kama-double-chained). While it's criticals are worse than dual wakizashi's, there's this tidbit:


Furthermore, if one of the weapons is dropped, the wielder can retrieve as a free action by pulling on the chain.

This means that I can simply drop one end as a free action. I now have a hand free to lay on hands. After healing myself, I can then retrieve it as a free action.

And I can use the weapon boon to become proficient with it for free.

This may be worth doing.

[SSGoW]

This brings up a question....

Why does a Paldin have to touch himself to use Lay on Hands on himself? I mean I understand for others but... Couldn't the Paladin wipe sweat off his brow with the back of his hand (still holding said weapon) and use Lay on Hands?

I did Kendo for a couple years so I know it is possible to touch yourself with the back of your hand (to your forehead) while holding a weapon....

Interesting...

Anyways.. Have you though about doing the whole Battle Cleric stuff? I love the Paladin in 3.0 but a Dex/Cha/Con based cleric might work better (note: you have a -2 on wis so you may be gimped on spells at first but it won't hurt that bad).

Edit: The reason why I say cleric is that you can heal a ton without needing to drop weapons. Plus you will heal others without needing to spend more actions to do it.

[Arutema]

Any thoughts on what my point-buy should be if I go with the double-chained Kama?

[ThiagoMartell]

I'd go with the kusari-gama myself. Try to get the agile enchantment on it.

[Larpus]

Yeah, the agile enchantment will be a must for a Dex-based non-Dervish Dancing build.

Personally, for straight "fighter who can heal himself mid battle", the Cleric isn't quite as no-brainer as usual, the issue I can see is that, without Selective Channeling, you might end up healing your enemies as well, and it's already a Dex build.

For the points...Wis is quite dumpy due to Divine Grace (too bad you gotta wait 'till level 2) I'd go with one of these:

Str 10 10
Dex 14 (16) 15 (17)
Con 14 15
Int 14 12
Wis 10 (8) 9 (7)
Cha 14 (16) 14 (16)

Or even drop Wis further down to 8 (6 with racial mod), keep Con at 14 and Dex goes to 16 (18 with racial mod), but I wouldn't feel too comfortable unless I knew that level1 is going to be extra fast (or starting at level2+) as your Will would be the same of a 10 Wis martial until level 2.

And yes, kusarigama is an interesting weapon, reach, 2 ends and all. Damage is pretty low, but there are interesting options there.

[Rixx]

Put my vote down for two weapon fighting. TWF provides increased returns on both bonuses to attack rolls and bonuses to damage, of which Smite Evil provides both. It's the same principle as a TWF rogue getting an attack bonus from flanking and a damage bonus from Sneak Attack, except you don't have to rely on flanking partners.

[Arutema]

Anyways.. Have you though about doing the whole Battle Cleric stuff?

Cleric is a no-go due to the wisdom penalty.

However, a couple revelations from the Oracle of Metal have caught my eye:

Armor Mastery (Ex): You become more maneuverable while wearing armor. You can move at your normal speed in medium armor that is made of metal. ...

Dance of the Blades (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. ...

This could well give the mobility I'm after plus a decent AC, and I can still heal and buff. Just not so smite-ey.

Edit: I'm debating an Oracle/Paladin multiclass now. But should I go more oracle (spells) or more paladin (smiting)?

[Duncan_Ruadrik]

for a tiefling, I would go....

Paladin 5/Shadowdancer 4/ Paladin X

Tielfing, 20 point buy

STR 16
DEX 12 (14)
CON 12
INT 11 (13)
WIS 10 (8)
CHA 14

1 Dodge
3 Mobility
5 Combat Reflexes
7 Spring Attack
9 Power Attack
11 Unsanctioned Knowledge

Unsanctioned Knowledge allows you one spell/spell level from either a Cleric or Bard spell list. There are some good buff spells on the bard list, which makes light armor not a bad choice. (Mirror Image, anyone?) Expeditious Retreat might also be fitting with Spring Attack.

Sacred Servant allows you to get a Domain (including its spells, I suggest Darkness).

This is easier with a Human, but is more thematically fitting for a Tiefling. Use a glaive and Spring Attack, and use HiPS at the end. Use Darkness spell to get you the Dim Light you need to pull it off. This also gets you some sue out of Combat Reflexes, which would otherwise be a feat tax.

Shadowdancer 4 gets you HiPS, darkvision, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, a Shadow companion that deals 1d6 STR damage with no save, and Shadowjump, 40ft. This adds some interesting options to your mobility.

With Power Attack and Smite Evil, you should be doing decent damage, even on a Spring Attack. Remember, you can also just full attack ,and still do well in the damage department.

Anyway, just an idea... more thematic, but could be fun!

[Arutema]

Hmm, critique this build (first 3 levels)

Str: 16 (increase at 8th, 12th level)
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 10
Wis: 8
Cha: 15 (increase at 4th level)

1: Paladin
- Feat: Power Attack
2: Paladin
3: Oracle
- Metal Mystery
- Legalistic Curse
- Revelation: Dance of the Blades
- Feat: Extra Revelation: Armor Mastery

Highlights: 40' speed in medium armor

Tactics: Use a katana or falchion two-handed. Pick up Sickened mercy at Paladin 3 just in case I'm forced to break my word and be sickened.

Does this work? What should I consider for higher-level feats?

[Novawurmson]

I like it a lot. Legalistic really brings together the fluff of the build - a devil-blooded paladin who always keeps his word. The sickened mercy gives it that extra little bit of devilishness that you're going to try to keep your word...but when worst comes to worst, you're not going to let anything hold you back from your larger goal (which is the greater good, being a paladin). You're going to be able to deal good damage from level 1, you're not strapped for feats, you're going to be mobile in armor...

/applaud.

[Arutema]

Dredging up this old thread to ask: Is there a trait which makes acrobatics a class skill to help dodge those pesky AoOs?

Also, thinking of tanking Wis as low as 6 for extra Cha. How would I roleplay such a low Wis score?

[NamelessNPC]

Captain's Blade (faction: Andoran)

However, in my experience it's extremely difficult to make that check without spending resources. Just having it as a class skill may not be enough

[Dayaz]

Also, thinking of tanking Wis as low as 6 for extra Cha. How would I roleplay such a low Wis score?

well, what are your other mentals?

[Novawurmson]

There's actually a low Wis paladin in my PF play group; he roleplays it as being young and idealistic.

[Larpus]

Yeah, look at the skills based on Wis: Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive and Survival.

All of them are skills that deal with either merely perceiving things (Perception, Sense Motive and Survival) or skills that deal with having experience at some task (Heal, Profession, Survival and Sense Motive depending on explanation); so a character with low Wis would be rather naive, not have a strong resolution (mirroring his lower Will) and rather "air headed" or oblivious to details.

Also, such a character might have a limited faith, understanding of faith or personal connection to it (since Wis is commonly associated with divine casting).

In the Paladin's example, yes, he is a chosen champion, but he might not quite understands why nor care, possibly even treating it more as a burden than a privilege.