So Durkon knows it's Tarquin now... [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

JavaScribe

2012-08-14, 02:36 PM

He knows it's not Thog, and he's talking smart *without* boldedness.

He knows it's not Thog, and he should be able to figure out who it is rather quickly, given his wisdom.

The Order already knows it isn't Thog. That still doesn't tell them who Tarquin is. I very much doubt Tarquin is the only intelligent high level melee fighter in the world. Thus far, the only evidence they have that it might be Tarquin is circumstantial.

Nxd6+!?

2012-08-14, 04:39 PM

Elan would know that circumstantial evidence can be a certainty....

Roland Itiative

2012-08-14, 06:26 PM

I wouldn't be certain Durkon knows, but that's a possibility. He did talk to Tarquin before, so unless we assume his helmet muffles his voice enough to make it unrecognisable (which would be realistic, but not always the way things work in fiction), Durkon only has to be paying attention to what the LG members are saying.

Felixc-91

2012-08-14, 06:47 PM

Yes, Durkon knows it's Tarquin now. D knows this because he heard Kilkil refer to T as general and Kilkil's precence in general gives him a giant hint that Tarquin's group is working with Nale now.

jere7my

2012-08-14, 07:10 PM

Yes, Durkon knows it's Tarquin now. D knows this because he heard Kilkil refer to T as general and Kilkil's precence in general gives him a giant hint that Tarquin's group is working with Nale now.

There's no reason to think Durkon either saw or heard Kilkil. Kilkil made that comment some distance down the hall from Durkon's place of concealment. By the time Durkon emerged and was able to see, the smoke was concealing Kilkil.

Wizard

2012-08-14, 07:12 PM

Felixc-91

2012-08-14, 07:20 PM

There's no reason to think Durkon either saw or heard Kilkil. Kilkil made that comment some distance down the hall from Durkon's place of concealment. By the time Durkon emerged and was able to see, the smoke was concealing Kilkil.
That's incorrect. Look at the streched panel in comic 858 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html), Kilkil and the general were no more than 20 feet from Durkon's possition durring that exchange, the conversation flows well enough that Kilkil's line was probably only a few seconds before T notices the trap. Meld into stone (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meldIntoStone.htm) does not interfere with hearing. It is almost certain Durkon heard them.
Edit:
Ok, maybe Durkon did not see Kilkil due to the smoke, and could not reconize his voice; but once the smoke clears (and its disipating fast) Kilkil will be plainly visible since he's on the orders side of the sliding wall/door. If D doesn't know yet, he will very soon.

EmperorSarda

2012-08-14, 07:29 PM

It is almost certain Durkon heard them.

Hearing does not mean recognize though. Durkon only ever was in the same room with Kilkil once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0744.html), and by the looks of things he was preoccupied by other things.

jere7my

2012-08-14, 08:20 PM

That's incorrect. Look at the streched panel in comic 858 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0858.html), Kilkil and the general were no more than 20 feet from Durkon's possition durring that exchange, the conversation flows well enough that Kilkil's line was probably only a few seconds before T notices the trap.

20 feet is "some distance", is it not? My point is that Kilkil didn't speak directly next to Durkon's place of concealment — after Kilkil's speech bubble, they took a couple of steps before Tarquin said "Stop," then Tarquin went charging down the hall toward Durkon, then Nale went charging down the hall to just past Durkon. In the long panel, Kilkil was probably about where Qarr is when he spoke, and Durkon is about where the arrow is. Given that Tarquin and Kilkil are probably speaking quietly, since they're talking smack about Sabine, there's no reason to think Durkon overheard that exchange.

Emperordaniel

2012-08-14, 08:38 PM

Everybody already heard Tarquin's voice during the fight outside the pyramid, but didn't recognize him, so his voice is probably affected by the helmet (it could have been that mask, though). So I don't think hearing him talk is enough for Durkon to figure it out.

This; during the fight on the pyramid, he talked right in front of them in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html) four (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html) (three of which had normal, non-thog-bolded speech), and they didn't pick up on him then. If they recognize him now, it would definitely not be because of his talking.

JavaScribe

2012-08-14, 11:31 PM

This; during the fight on the pyramid, he talked right in front of them in (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html) four (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0851.html) different (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0852.html) comics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0853.html) (three of which had normal, non-thog-bolded speech), and they didn't pick up on him then. If they recognize him now, it would definitely not be because of his talking.

Indeed, not to mention him stating "Now how does the voice go again? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0849.html)", implying that Tarquin is probably making a specific effort to adjust it.

Mike Havran

2012-08-15, 02:41 AM

Durkon needed all of his focus for a perfect timing of the Holy Word. Now he needs to focus on stalling the dangerous fighter. He has no time to indulge in analysis of LG chat.

Agnostik

2012-08-15, 03:58 AM

Elan would know that circumstantial evidence can be a certainty....
Actually, it's the opposite. The more circumstantial evidence you have that something is true, the bigger the chance that it's not actually true. In fiction, obviously. :smalltongue:

Just like in the Elan's observation you're referring to, the less likely something is to be true, the bigger the chance that it IS true just to service the drama.

Omergideon

2012-08-15, 05:11 AM

There is a possibility that Durkon has figured out that Malack is there by now (including the combat on the pyramid steps/hearing him in 858-859) and he may have recognised KilKil. Combined with other pieces of circumstantial evidence he might have been able to deduce Tarquin's identity. But then again he might not have done so by now. Rereading the recent strips we see them carefully worded to prevent unambiguous identification of Tarquin (a quality of the Giants good writing skills). But the deduction is a possible and reasonable one.

Whether Durkon made that leap, or even cares to at the moment, is a question for serious debate.

Jay R

2012-08-15, 01:12 PM

eras10

2012-08-15, 04:58 PM

Durkon came out in the darkness, and Tarquin has been careful to refer to Elan as "your brother", rather than "my son". Without any compelling evidence that somebody has recognized him, I will continue to assume that not-Thog's identity is unknown.

There's no realistic way that Haley didn't see both Kilkil and Malack. Just look at the panel on #858. Haley shoots an arrow with a smokestick on it right into the middle of the Linear Guild. As a bonus, Kilkil is flying above "Thog's" head. He's plainly in line of sight.

Heck, not only that, but at that exact moment, Belkar was poised in a ceiling trap door no more than 10 feet away from "Thog"'s position when he catches the arrow. Belkar's Listen Check sucks, but he still shouldn't have been able to miss Kilkil and Malack talking - Kilkil is talking within 10 ft of Belkar's hiding spot.

If that's not enough, after the smokestick goes off and before the Holy Word, Kilkil is speaking loudly. Why Haley wouldn't be listening I don't know, and her listen check is undoubtedly very good.

Whether or not Durkon has figured this out, it would be comically inexplicable for OOTS not to have figured this out by now, or in the very near future.

Mike Havran

2012-08-16, 04:36 AM

There's no realistic way that Haley didn't see both Kilkil and Malack. Just look at the panel on #858. Haley shoots an arrow with a smokestick on it right into the middle of the Linear Guild. As a bonus, Kilkil is flying above "Thog's" head. He's plainly in line of sight.

Haley was trying her best not to shoot the crowd of mummies. Even if she actually wanted to pay attention to the very back of the Guild, there were too many obstacles in her line of sight. So it is unlikely that she noticed a little flying kobold hovering in dim-lit corridor about 100 feet away, when her concentration was elsewhere.

Heck, not only that, but at that exact moment, Belkar was poised in a ceiling trap door no more than 10 feet away from "Thog"'s position when he catches the arrow. Belkar's Listen Check sucks, but he still shouldn't have been able to miss Kilkil and Malack talking - Kilkil is talking within 10 ft of Belkar's hiding spot.

Belkar had probably opened only a tiny crack in the trapdoor (otherwise Tarquin would have spotted him, as he did spot Haley), so he saw only a very limited part of the corridor. He was ready to jump on the first one to pass through that little place, and that was Nale.

If that's not enough, after the smokestick goes off and before the Holy Word, Kilkil is speaking loudly. Why Haley wouldn't be listening I don't know, and her listen check is undoubtedly very good.

Kilkil is speaking loudly (or, rather, in normal voice), but both Nale and Sabine are in front of him and are speaking even louder. There is no way how could Haley make out Kilkil's voice and identify him.

Jay R

2012-08-16, 08:43 AM

There's no realistic way that Haley didn't see both Kilkil and Malack. Just look at the panel on #858. Haley shoots an arrow with a smokestick on it right into the middle of the Linear Guild. As a bonus, Kilkil is flying above "Thog's" head. He's plainly in line of sight.

Heck, not only that, but at that exact moment, Belkar was poised in a ceiling trap door no more than 10 feet away from "Thog"'s position when he catches the arrow. Belkar's Listen Check sucks, but he still shouldn't have been able to miss Kilkil and Malack talking - Kilkil is talking within 10 ft of Belkar's hiding spot.

If that's not enough, after the smokestick goes off and before the Holy Word, Kilkil is speaking loudly. Why Haley wouldn't be listening I don't know, and her listen check is undoubtedly very good.

Whether or not Durkon has figured this out, it would be comically inexplicable for OOTS not to have figured this out by now, or in the very near future.

You're treating this situation like it's a game. It's not - it's a story. They will learn that it's Tarquin only when Rich wants them to learn that it's Tarquin.

There's no reasonable way for Lois to not recognize Superman behind those glasses. There's no reasonable way for Elmer to not recognize Bugs Bunny in disguise. There's no reasonable way for Olivia to not tell the difference between Viola and her brother in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night. But disguises in stories work as long as they are supposed to.

dps

2012-08-16, 01:57 PM

Haley was trying her best not to shoot the crowd of mummies. Even if she actually wanted to pay attention to the very back of the Guild, there were too many obstacles in her line of sight. So it is unlikely that she noticed a little flying kobold hovering in dim-lit corridor about 100 feet away, when her concentration was elsewhere.

Belkar had probably opened only a tiny crack in the trapdoor (otherwise Tarquin would have spotted him, as he did spot Haley), so he saw only a very limited part of the corridor. He was ready to jump on the first one to pass through that little place, and that was Nale.

Kilkil is speaking loudly (or, rather, in normal voice), but both Nale and Sabine are in front of him and are speaking even louder. There is no way how could Haley make out Kilkil's voice and identify him.

At this point, whether or not any of the OotS has recognized Tarquin, Malack, or Kilkil depends on one of them passing a listen or spot checks. And the comic has a long-standing joke about them failing such checks.

willpell

2012-08-17, 10:04 AM

There's no reasonable way for Lois to not recognize Superman behind those glasses. There's no reasonable way for Elmer to not recognize Bugs Bunny in disguise. There's no reasonable way for Olivia to not tell the difference between Viola and her brother in Shakespeare's Twelfth Night. But disguises in stories work as long as they are supposed to.

I really don't agree with this logic. I find it more reasonable to think that Superman's Clark Kent disguise is better than the comic artists (or the makeup specialists on Smallville or Lois & Clark) can possibly make it look. If the story asks the audience to overlook obvious facts for no sensible reason, suspension of disbelief is ruined, and the author looks to be lacking in competence, asking the audience to ignore the fact that his work is irredeemably flawed. That goes double for a work based on a game with well-understood rules; it's one thing to bend those rules now and again, the way a DM might when running the game, but if the author does something like having an ogre hide behind a tomato plant and the characters failing to notice them (other than when this is a joke on the characters' obliviousness, a la Belkar), and expects the audience to look the other way on this blatant failure on his part....that's not something we should wave off as "it's a story so don't argue".

Jay R

2012-08-17, 12:54 PM

I really don't agree with this logic. I find it more reasonable to think that Superman's Clark Kent disguise is better than the comic artists (or the makeup specialists on Smallville or Lois & Clark) can possibly make it look.

The point is that you came up with that explanation; the writers didn't. That's the "willing" part of "willing suspension of disbelief".

If the story asks the audience to overlook obvious facts for no sensible reason, suspension of disbelief is ruined, and the author looks to be lacking in competence, asking the audience to ignore the fact that his work is irredeemably flawed. That goes double for a work based on a game with well-understood rules; it's one thing to bend those rules now and again, the way a DM might when running the game, but if the author does something like having an ogre hide behind a tomato plant and the characters failing to notice them (other than when this is a joke on the characters' obliviousness, a la Belkar), and expects the audience to look the other way on this blatant failure on his part....that's not something we should wave off as "it's a story so don't argue".

Where did this come from? The point of argument is not an ogre hiding behind a tomato plant, but somebody hiding inside a close-faced magical helm of disguise, when the people being fooled are busy with much more important issues, and have a history of failing Spot checks.

Felixc-91

2012-08-17, 01:38 PM

@Haley spotting Kilkil and Malack
Haley was carefully aiming to insure her arrow hit the linear guild not the mummies, that means she would have to be able to see the linear guild to hit with the smoke stick/arrow. Also note that in the 858 stretch panel Kilkil is flying above the head height of both the mummies and the linear guild members. Even if she could not see Malack (and I agree seeing him would be tough) she probably saw Kilkil.
@ Belkar's horrible wisdom/ spot and listen checks
yeah, ok Belkar really sucks at spot and listen check, but once the smoke stick went off there was some panic seen in Kilkil and Z, if you look closely you'll see that Kilkil's line "I can't see!" ended in an exclamation mark, so he was probably speaking loudly. To not hear a battle going on you need to roll lower than a -10, if raised voices is a -5 and Belkar was 10 feet away he would need to get a -3 to hear it. Even with sucky wisdom that’s impossible, to get -5 on a listen check (remember you have to get bellow the DC to fail) you would need a wis score of 1. ie. Roll a 1 then -5 to get -4, you can't have a base score of less than 3 for any attribute. Belkar heard Kilkil, whether or not B recognized the voice is up to Rich.
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@random side note about Superman.
The author at one point tried to hand wave the fact that no one recognizes superman through that horrible disguise by saying that superman was constantly hypnotizing everyone who saw him in his street clothes to not see through his disguise (one of his many miraculous abilities apparently).

Chromascope3D

2012-08-17, 04:06 PM

@Haley spotting Kilkil and Malack
Haley was carefully aiming to insure her arrow hit the linear guild not the mummies, that means she would have to be able to see the linear guild to hit with the smoke stick/arrow. Also note that in the 858 stretch panel Kilkil is flying above the head height of both the mummies and the linear guild members. Even if she could not see Malack (and I agree seeing him would be tough) she probably saw Kilkil.

While it's very unlikely, they could assume that Tarquin sent Malack and Kilkil because he knew they could be trusted to watch over the Linear Guild (far-fetched, but reasonable).

@ Belkar's horrible wisdom/ spot and listen checks
yeah, ok Belkar really sucks at spot and listen check, but once the smoke stick went off there was some panic seen in Kilkil and Z, if you look closely you'll see that Kilkil's line "I can't see!" ended in an exclamation mark, so he was probably speaking loudly. To not hear a battle going on you need to roll lower than a -10, if raised voices is a -5 and Belkar was 10 feet away he would need to get a -3 to hear it. Even with sucky wisdom that’s impossible, to get -5 on a listen check (remember you have to get bellow the DC to fail) you would need a wis score of 1. ie. Roll a 1 then -5 to get -4, you can't have a base score of less than 3 for any attribute. Belkar heard Kilkil, whether or not B recognized the voice is up to Rich.
lol, brought to you by a regular of the class and level geekery thread

Sabine and Nale were also yelling, though. Someone with a terrible Listen check as he probably wouldn't be able to discern who's voice was whose, especially considering he rally only encountered the kobold a few times.

Speaking of which, what is Kilkil? Is he a high-level dragon disciple? A half-dragon? Or is he just using supplementary material?

willpell

2012-08-17, 10:47 PM

Speaking of which, what is Kilkil? Is he a high-level dragon disciple? A half-dragon? Or is he just using supplementary material?

We don't know. Personally I think it'd be cute if he was a half-dragon child of the Empress (pity the father, especially given that I think kobolds have a short lifespan so he might have been conceived recently), but it's just as likely that he's simply a random Urd thrown in for local color, much like the bug-slavers.

Chromascope3D

2012-08-17, 10:54 PM

Heh, no one suspects him to be dangerous until he starts breathing gouts of flame 10 times his size. Somehow... :P

Prowl

2012-08-20, 05:52 AM

At this point the Order would have to be deliberately made plot-stupid not to be able to put all the clues together and figure out Tarquin's identity.

EmperorSarda

2012-08-20, 06:01 AM

Mike Havran

2012-08-20, 12:23 PM

At this point the Order would have to be deliberately made plot-stupid not to be able to put all the clues together and figure out Tarquin's identity.

What are all those clues, then?

The spotting of Kilkil isn't a big deal, Haley would have to roll really well to be able to identify him in the corridor.

Ruerl

2012-08-20, 05:30 PM

What are all those clues, then?

The spotting of Kilkil isn't a big deal, Haley would have to roll really well to be able to identify him in the corridor.

They saw Malack (thats how they do the seperation of the enemy group), thats a dead giveaway seeing that they know how much Malack hates Nale. No Tarquin = no way Malack won't roast Nale.

Simple, no?

EmperorSarda

2012-08-20, 07:30 PM

They saw Malack (thats how they do the seperation of the enemy group), thats a dead giveaway seeing that they know how much Malack hates Nale. No Tarquin = no way Malack won't roast Nale.

Simple, no?

Or a simpler solution is that Roy saw the saw blade trap and the sliding door trap and thought, "hey, here is a good reason to launch a sneak attack here. We'll separate out some of the group so we don't have to worry about facing them all at once."

Remember, Roy though up the ambush well before Malack could have ever been spotted. Through a pack of mummies and the rest of the Linear Guild some distance away.

jere7my

2012-08-20, 09:59 PM

They saw Malack (thats how they do the seperation of the enemy group), thats a dead giveaway seeing that they know how much Malack hates Nale. No Tarquin = no way Malack won't roast Nale.

Roy didn't separate the group; Sabine's tail set off the sliding door trap. I'm sure Roy intentionally set up the ambush to catch the Linear Guild in the midst of a bunch of traps, so they'd stumble around and set some of them off, but there's no reason to think he was intentionally trying to cut off Malack. Nor is there any reason to think any of them saw Malack, who was after all at the rear of a large group.

Mike Havran

2012-08-21, 04:23 AM

They saw Malack (thats how they do the seperation of the enemy group), thats a dead giveaway seeing that they know how much Malack hates Nale. No Tarquin = no way Malack won't roast Nale.

Simple, no?

No.

The Order didn't spot Malack, or at least there is not a single fact that indicates they did. The separation via shifting wall was unwillingly triggered by Sabine's tail in panel 2 of this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html).

Edit: Jere7my already made the point, I just added the link.