Replacement for Turning Ability

[00dlez]

I've been mulling over a zombie apocalypse themed 3.5 campaign (low levels - survival itself is a challenge, mid-levels uncover what started the problem, high levels figure out how to save the world and do it.)

The first problem I bumped into is that zombies and other undead aren't very scary, especially at low levels, when the cleric waves his jazz hands at a horde and they run away scared of the party. So, removing the turn undead ability from classes would be a must.

What I need help with is:
1. What should I replace it with? Should I provide a menu of options to players or just find a balanced ability that is a one-size-fits all and paste it in.

2. Should I allow players (divine casters) to select the Extra Turning feat to grant them the ability to turn 3/day? (maybe add a K(religion) 5 ranks pre-req)

Thanks!

[ThiagoMartell]

This should help. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=6bkkiuka77i527qfpkdasbm8d5&topic=7908)

[Gamer Girl]

Really, just keep it.

At most you will get a cleric that can turn undead ten times a day. So what is the big deal? They can only effect so many at a time, and only so many times. And if your in an undead apocalypse...well, there would always be more undead.

[GenghisDon]

As you please...you can dump the cleric class entirely if you wish (dread necromancer would be even worse to have in such a setting).

UA has the variant "champion" cleric that does not have turn, but gains smite (evil or good) & aura of courage instead; both as the paladin class features.

That's a problem solved as well.

[tyckspoon]

I'd start by going over the Turn Undead rules and making sure they actually are a problem. For example, a Level 1 cleric staring down a pair of bog-standard Human Zombies:

First, you get the turning level check. These Zombies have 2 HD, so the Cleric has to get a total of 13 or better on his roll to even be able to affect them. Depending on his Cha this is probably around a 40-60% chance. Next, he rolls Turning Damage (2d6+Cleric level+Cha.) He needs 4 or more to turn both Zombies. Which is pretty likely an auto-success.. but then, 2 zombies are hardly a 'horde', are they? What if that cleric and his party are trying to make their way through a crowd of, say, 8 zombies? He has to get 16 HD worth of turning to make them all move out of the way. And they do only move out of the way, and not for very long- turning lasts for 1 minute. That's a really long time *inside a fight*, but it's really quite short if you have to actually do something at a location.

Personally, I'd be more concerned about the Hide From Undead spell, which gives you 10 min/level in which unintelligent undead simply cannot perceive characters in any way.

[The Boz]

PF does it GREAT. Replaces it with Channel Positive/Negative Energy.
Channel Positive Energy can either heal everyone within 30ft of the cleric for 1d6/2 levels, or deal that much damage to undead in the same radius. I think there's a feat that allows for both.
Channel Negative Energy is the reverse; heals undead or harms everyone else. There are also elemental channels, but I don't want to get into that right now.

[Psyren]

There's a sidebar in Rules Compendium (pg. 146) that suggests modifying turning to apply penalties to undead instead of just making them flee, and also keeping them from willingly approaching the turner while the turning lasts. I like this approach because it keeps undead encounters interesting (they can still attack other party members, use abilities etc.), makes them simpler (you don't have to keep track of fleeing skeletons, the players don't have to worry about undead running into the next room and aggroing reinforcements) and the players who rely on/optimize turning still get something out of it.

[Telonius]

The ACF guide Thiago posted has some good suggestions.

I'll add another: Instead of Turning the undead, it affects the undead as though it were Bestow Curse or Doom. If it were undead besides Zombies, I'd suggest Slow as an alternative. Basically, it does affect the undead, but more as a "slow them down" thing instead of an "I win" button.

[Psyren]

The ACF guide Thiago posted has some good suggestions.

I'll add another: Instead of Turning the undead, it affects the undead as though it were Bestow Curse or Doom. If it were undead besides Zombies, I'd suggest Slow as an alternative. Basically, it does affect the undead, but more as a "slow them down" thing instead of an "I win" button.

Hey, that's what I said! :smalltongue:

(I'd go stronger than Doom though... it sucks)

[eggs]

Dragon Magazine #311 has an article by Ari Marmell with a bunch of variant Clerics, none of which have Turning. Maybe worth checking out (at very least, it adds some differentiation between two members of the class).

[00dlez]

The ACF guide Thiago posted has some good suggestions.

I'll add another: Instead of Turning the undead, it affects the undead as though it were Bestow Curse or Doom. If it were undead besides Zombies, I'd suggest Slow as an alternative. Basically, it does affect the undead, but more as a "slow them down" thing instead of an "I win" button.


Hey, that's what I said! :smalltongue:

(I'd go stronger than Doom though... it sucks)

I like this... Any suggestions for spells other than Doom?


Or, rather than nerf the zombies, maybe give clerics a X/day mass aid vs. undead only type ability

[GenghisDon]

bah, my post was eaten.

The forum goes down often, doesn't it?

[navar100]

Alternatively, don't use undead. Try the Lost template from Magic Incarnum. Use the emotion rage and you have "28 Days Later". If you really want the flesh-eating, improvise the template by using "hunger" as the motivation.

[00dlez]

Hmmm... some sort of rage ability with the die hard feat would be interesting... Certainly would give them the "until the head is here and the body is there, they will crawl after you wanting to eat your face" feel

[Psyren]

I like this... Any suggestions for spells other than Doom?

Any sufficiently strong debuff works as a template - a Crushing Despair effect in a burst for instance, with undead who would be destroyed suffering Bestow Curse instead. Just make sure that at least the turning cleric can't be attacked by any turned undead while the effect lasts. This is consistent with common fantasy themes, reinforcing the archetypical image of the devout holy man striding into the catacombs like a blazing torch, and countless horrors shrinking before him, unable to pounce.

[GenghisDon]

Alternatively, don't use undead. Try the Lost template from Magic Incarnum. Use the emotion rage and you have "28 Days Later". If you really want the flesh-eating, improvise the template by using "hunger" as the motivation.

I was going to say "make the damn undead up" as zombies don't really work as the horror movie ones do. This is a pretty damn good idea though. I'm not sure on incarnum (ugh) specifics, but mutated/transformation type curse rather than D&D "undeath" certainly can work.


Any sufficiently strong debuff works as a template - a Crushing Despair effect in a burst for instance, with undead who would be destroyed suffering Bestow Curse instead. Just make sure that at least the turning cleric can't be attacked by any turned undead while the effect lasts. This is consistent with common fantasy themes, reinforcing the archetypical image of the devout holy man striding into the catacombs like a blazing torch, and countless horrors shrinking before him, unable to pounce.

I suppose, but I think the whole horror angle one wants for such a campaign is at odds with these "implacable" & "fearless" foes being put off by anything the players can do. I'd ditch it, nerf it, or ditch the class(es). I think, in THIS kind of campaign, the holy man striding into the catacombs like a blazing torch is pulled down by a mob of undead & eaten alive.

[00dlez]

Any sufficiently strong debuff works as a template - a Crushing Despair effect in a burst for instance, with undead who would be destroyed suffering Bestow Curse instead. Just make sure that at least the turning cleric can't be attacked by any turned undead while the effect lasts. This is consistent with common fantasy themes, reinforcing the archetypical image of the devout holy man striding into the catacombs like a blazing torch, and countless horrors shrinking before him, unable to pounce.

I'd stop short of making the cleric unattackable.

I think I might DM-fiat some effects to make things more dramatic (like having a large group of zombies auto-fail against a sanctuary spell and allowing the cleric free passage that way), but keep a majority of effects RAW

[Downysole]

Personally, I like the idea of being able to play a cleric in a Zompocalypse setting. It's not like you have unlimited abilities, but it's a lot like taking your rain coat with you when you see the dark clouds.

Just because you're better prepared (and maybe even the best prepared) to deal with the situation doesn't mean you're going to break the game.

If your players are expecting to fight zombies, or if they aren't at level 1 and will be past level 1, you can bet they're going to find religion and fast. I say let them. You can always adjust XP if the encounters are too easy and adjust CRs up if the players aren't enjoying themselves.

[Psyren]

The reason I suggest making the cleric unattackable - that's a clear benefit of current turning that would otherwise be lost. And the ability to attack other members of the party would maintain that darker feel.

Having the cleric be attackable would darken things further, so you could definitely go that route if you wanted. I do however think that being able to approach the thing causing their pain (the strongly presented holy symbol) would be more immersion-breaking though.

[sonofzeal]

Dragon Magazine #311 has an article by Ari Marmell with a bunch of variant Clerics, none of which have Turning. Maybe worth checking out (at very least, it adds some differentiation between two members of the class).
Yes! So very yes!

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the Cleric class should be replaced wholesale by the "Evangelist" variant from that issue. Not that it's more powerful (it isn't), but the variant is {a} vastly more flavourful, {b} more balanced, and {c} more fun. The last one is IMO, of course, but it's a spontaneous caster with tones of spells known, which I find is usually more enjoyable than a traditional cleric's spellcasting.

Also, since it lacks turning, it's fine for this campaign.

[00dlez]

Just IMHO, clerics are already BAMF's and retaining the RAW Turning ability in a setting where undead are everywhere seems to be just another boost to an already top class. I don't want to nerf so much as move their power away from a direct counter to most enemies.

Where as before you might fight orcs and zombies, now you are fighting skeletons and zombies, and are more effective more often.


Also as I mentioned before, I think I might retain the Extra Turning feat and simply have it grant the turning ability with K(religion) of 5 ranks as the pre-req... Potentially available to anyone willing to burn a feat

[GenghisDon]

Yes! So very yes!

I've said it before and I'll say it again - the Cleric class should be replaced wholesale by the "Evangelist" variant from that issue. Not that it's more powerful (it isn't), but the variant is {a} vastly more flavourful, {b} more balanced, and {c} more fun. The last one is IMO, of course, but it's a spontaneous caster with tones of spells known, which I find is usually more enjoyable than a traditional cleric's spellcasting.

Also, since it lacks turning, it's fine for this campaign.

Looking them over again (I DO have that issue), they are cool indeed:smallcool:

[lsfreak]

Another, if potentially powerful, option would be to keep the number of Turn Undead attempts, but have Turn Undead itself do nothing. Instead, they're just there to power a free Devotion feat, chosen thematically from those that use Turn Undead for additional uses.

[00dlez]

Another, if potentially powerful, option would be to keep the number of Turn Undead attempts, but have Turn Undead itself do nothing. Instead, they're just there to power a free Devotion feat, chosen thematically from those that use Turn Undead for additional uses.

Quite powerful indeed... as that is what 90% of clerics seem to do anyway without being given a free feat to do it with

[lsfreak]

Quite powerful indeed... as that is what 90% of clerics seem to do anyway without being given a free feat to do it with

Primarily because Turn Undead is a useless ability. Unless it's an undead-centric campaign, you're simply not using TU for anything useful, so you might as well use it to power something useful (Devotion feats, DMM, Ordained Champion/RKV stuff). In a zombie apocalypse game, if TU is deemed too powerful, turning it into a class feature that doesn't effect undead directly is probably a good idea.

[navar100]

Another idea is to use ghouls. In "Night of the Living Dead" they are referred to as ghouls in a news report, so there is precedent of a sort. You can handwave the paralysis as shown by some victims in movies remaining silent or otherwise not moving, such as the Mother in Night of the Living Dead when her undead daughter bites her neck. Victims who still move and react in the movies made their save. :smallsmile: Fiat away elf immunity for sake of the genre since to use ghasts and deal with the stench is not in the genre. Ghoul fever is the infection.

[ericgrau]

I've read about this being done before and they had a cleric. But the main ability was the spell hide from undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromUndead.htm) since everything was mindless.

A bigger issue might be the greater advantage that clerics have. There are countless anti-undead spells. You can pick them out 1 by 1 and ban them, ban the whole class... or make up for it in other classes. Rangers have favored enemy (undead). All martial class can grab undead bane weapons. The wizard has less anti-undead spells but he has them, and more importantly he has tons and tons of anti-crowd spells. Druids have a bit of crowd control too and a little bit of cleric stuff.

I'd just leave the matter alone. Tell the party they should have at least 1 cleric and others should still prepare for undead, but beyond that they should be fine. Even if the zombie apocalypse is a surprise this could be the reason these particular fellows are the ones left. Or why they came investigating not knowing the scale of the problem. Etc.

[Ashtagon]

Replace it with the dark knowledge ability of the archivist class. It's even thematically appropriate!

[00dlez]

I've read about this being done before and they had a cleric. But the main ability was the spell hide from undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromUndead.htm) since everything was mindless.

A bigger issue might be the greater advantage that clerics have. There are countless anti-undead spells. You can pick them out 1 by 1 and ban them, ban the whole class... or make up for it in other classes. Rangers have favored enemy (undead). All martial class can grab undead bane weapons. The wizard has less anti-undead spells but he has them, and more importantly he has tons and tons of anti-crowd spells. Druids have a bit of crowd control too and a little bit of cleric stuff.

I'd just leave the matter alone. Tell the party they should have at least 1 cleric and others should still prepare for undead, but beyond that they should be fine. Even if the zombie apocalypse is a surprise this could be the reason these particular fellows are the ones left. Or why they came investigating not knowing the scale of the problem. Etc.

Interesting point and gave me an idea that I'd not considered before...

Replace turning (still aquire-able through the Extra Turning made into simply the Turn Undead feat) with a Favored Enemy (Undead) ability (likely renamed to Scourge of the Undead or something.)

[MukkTB]

You can simply declare that 'in this setting these are the classes available.' Its only a **** move if you let NPCs take the prohibited classes.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Alternatively, don't use undead. Try the Lost template from Magic Incarnum. Use the emotion rage and you have "28 Days Later". If you really want the flesh-eating, improvise the template by using "hunger" as the motivation.

This. Because seriously, this fits it to a T.

Or combine the two - have undead and Lost creatures.

[ericgrau]

Well turning is a big portion of the cleric's anti undead power but my main point is that there are lots of other options that are even bigger against undead, cleric or not. I still hope you warn other classes to prepare for undead. Then if you still want to nerf cleric partially against undead then that's a fine idea however you do it.

But if you drop a random unprepared turning free cleric and a random unprepared other class into a pile of zombies, the cleric will still have a huge advantage. 1 day later the cleric switches to anti-undead spells. And 1 day later the other class wishes he could rewrite his character but can't.

[zlefin]

i would recommend against making turn undead available to anyone by feat.
The problem imho isn't so much turn undead itself (which is ok vs undead), but what happens when you stack the various boosting feats; (improved turn undead, exalted turning, extra turning, disciple of the sun, empower turning, i'm sure ther'es more useful stuff), and add them to a cha heavy build; then you can just blow up piles of undead, including higher level undead quite easily.