Legacy Weapons

[Mari01]

Now I'm aware of how bad the majority of the legacy weapons are. My question is simple. If we got rid of the downsides of the legacy weapons, would they become viable? And by downsides I mean getting rid of the penalties, but keep the questing/sacrifice portions.

As an example, lets say the blade of justice and friendship requires you to save 3 people who would want to harm you from death. You unlock the least/advanced/greater doing your meditation on niceness. That's the questing/sacrifice. You gain the benefit and DON'T lose more and more base attack bonus or health. Would they be worthwhile then?

TL;DR Legacy weapons with no downsides. Worth it? Are the benefits still worth burning the feat over or should that be removed too?

[killianh]

usually its more or less an issue of the actual weapons not being all that good in comparison to a weapon actually purchased. While a sword that becomes +5 with a base ability and some SLAs can be nice for the ritual cost, rarely do any of the swords really fit a build, nor do they grant anything more useful.

Really I find that a balance issue exists between a PC not having to pay gold for a weapon (thus being able to spend it on everything else) and burning the feat and what have you for the penalty.

More on topic though I think that they would be viable with the penalties removed, but it really depends on what kind of weapon lands in what character's hands, and also if legacy champion comes into effect. A good example of bordering between useless and broken are the 9 swords from ToB. Add in no penalties, and the ability to move powers around from LC and you have a bands of death dealers right there.

[Kuulvheysoon]

I've actually used one in a normal game.

Of course, it was my off-hand weapon in a TWF build, but that's besides the point.

The SLAs can be surprisingly useful, actually.

[Saintheart]

A good example of bordering between useless and broken are the 9 swords from ToB. Add in no penalties, and the ability to move powers around from LC and you have a bands of death dealers right there.

The only ones from ToB that are mildly useful are the three (can't remember the names offhand) that give you what amounts to the use of a given maneuver x number of times per day. For a non-adept that's Martial Study about five times a day for no feat cost at all.

[navar100]

No harm done. The character has a roleplay shtick to keep one magic weapon for his adventuring career that improves commensurate with the levels instead of dropping an obsolete magic weapon when a better one comes along in treasure.

[Tvtyrant]

I guess the question is if a +5 weapon is worth a feat. Remember that is only 50,000 gold pieces, or the equivalent of a Horn of Valhalla.

Another way to put it is that the Psychic Warrior has an ACF which swaps out a feat for the ability to make a weapon effectively at-will, so you aren't stuck with the same 5 weapon properties. This is much, much better than a Legacy Weapon.

So the real question is if the SLAs are good enough to justify a feat.

[Big Fau]

The only ones from ToB that are mildly useful are the three (can't remember the names offhand) that give you what amounts to the use of a given maneuver x number of times per day. For a non-adept that's Martial Study about five times a day for no feat cost at all.

Supernal Clarity's Time Stop ability is really nice though.

[Kelb_Panthera]

@ those who're concerned if a legacy item is worth the feat:

You don't actually have to choose the feat as a character feat. Completing the least legacy ritual for your legacy item of choice grants you least legacy (X) as a bonus feat. There is zero feat cost associated with legacy weapons.

[Uhtred]

I started my first-time players with no-penalty legacy weapons just so they wouldn't bog down the game like my experienced players did every time they hit a town, badgering whatever artificer npc could enchant weapons with obscure enchants they'd found by combing through splatbooks during my plot exposition. My Domovoi fire-focused sorcerer got Flamecaster's Bolt, and my Strongarm Bracer-equipped Dwarven Cleric of Moradin got Bloodcrier's Hammer. Both weapons suited their builds, and nobody knew they were legacy weapons until their individual characters completed that first ritual. Now my experienced players who have poured money into weapons they've had since lvl-6 are scrambling to see if maybe THEIR weapons are Legacy, and if they aren't, then by golly they WANT them to be, retroactively. Because unfair, that's why. Never mind that i've imposed the restriction that legacy weapons can't have enchantments or enhancement bonuses added to them by that artificer npc, and that my experienced players' custom weapons suit their builds just fine.

[Deepbluediver]

I actually have a bigger problem with the gold cost associated with unlocking most of the legacy weapon abilities. I know that the intent was for balance against normal enchanted weapons, but in my (admittedly limited) experience with legacy weapons, you don't really have enough gold to easily blow it on the legacy rituals until you are at a level where most of the abilities are kinda "meh". I would rather let the legacy weapons actually be POWERFUL at whatever level you can find and complete the rituals, and have a DM decide when/if they should be put into a game.

That and some of them are just odd; like why do I need to spend 20,000 gp to prepare for a trip into the desert where I'm specificaly prohibited from taking any supplies?

[Terazul]

1500-3500 gp is too much gold at level 5 to unlock your abilities for 5-10? 11,500-14,000 not around for 11-15? 38,000-43,000 not a drop in the bucket at 17? :smallconfused: I mean I know nobody really plays strict to the WBL but you should have some amount to bop around by then, and that's the price range for the least, lesser, and greater legacies respectively. I suppose it is a bit much for the leasts if you also include the price of the weapon (as most are +1 to begin with) but ehh. If you're buying proper equipment you need at those levels, you should have the funds for a ritual anyway.

The thing about the costs is they really need to be paid upfront, otherwise you're benefiting from all the cool stuff without a cost involved. And overall, one of the main benefits to a Legacy Weapon (even the crappy ones) is the cost you pay is much less than an equivalent weapon would cost. Take for example the Desert Wind, presented in ToB; By the time you're done you've spent 55,200 gp in rituals (+2,315 gp on the sword itself). That seems like alot. But let's lookie here. At its simplest function, it's a +4 Flaming Burst Scimitar, which is 72,000 gp on it's own, normally. Plus:

Constant Endure Elements (ok, about 2000 gp worth)
3/day Use-Activated Burning Hands (CL 5) (quickly becomes meh, but still 6000 gp worth)
+6 Enhancement to Dexterity (Yup. 36,000 gp)
Free Quick Draw Feat (Well, Crystal of Least Return is only 300 gp...)
3/day Burning Blade (1st level) maneuver (Not sure!)
At-Will Fan the Flames (3rd level) maneuver (A little better than the 3000 gp 1/encounter)
3/day Wyrm's Flame (8th level) maneuver (again not sure)


And the maneuver things give an added bonus if you can already use them. Now before even looking at the stuff I can't really calculate, you're sitting on about 116,300 gp worth of magical effects for roughly half the cost, before considering it's all in one slot. And that's one of the crappy pre-built Legacy Weapons. If you let your players create their own custom ones (be prepared for lots of Cunning in the 11th level slot), they become even more cost efficient. Now, I don't think that's a bad thing at all, I'm more just pointing out that after you get rid of the horrid penalties, the things are a lot more cost efficient/better than people give them credit for. And that's before you start stacking things like Item Familiar and whatnot.

...Which is also why I can see why your players are quite interested in having their weapons also be Legacy-ized, Uhtred. They're actually pretty swank.
*Yet another Edit*: And Kelb is indeed correct. You don't have to burn a feat on the rituals, you just get them as bonus feats after completing them, effectively saying "you can use this range of abilities on your item".

[Deepbluediver]

I admit, the DMs I played with tended to keep a tighter rein on just how much of our wealth was actually in gp form, so that could be coloring my opinion somewhat.

It still feels weird though that you need to pay the gatekeeper a toll before you can go on the quest to unlock the true power of your gods-blessed sword of zombie smiting.

[darkdragoon]

Depending on the unique effects yes. Because otherwise, you can get anything else they offer (more expensive yes, but you're also not locked into +5 bashing or whatnot)

[Kelb_Panthera]

One should also bear in mind that a legacy doesn't necessarily have to be a weapon. Amongst the examples was an amulet, a pair of gloves, and a ring.

[panaikhan]

I have received Legacy items as a player, and given them as a GM.
Overall, if I am designing a Legacy item, I pick the 'downside' tables that have the simplese effects. Fighters lose HP, casters lose spells, psions lose PP. Everything else I keep as a minimum just for ease of bookkeeping.

If possible, I design the item with the intended player's help, ensuring the character has meaningful (but not necessarily overpowered) abilities as they increase in level.
I also recommend the Legacy Champion PrC - it progresses a previous class, mitigates the ritual costs, and lets you exchange abilities you don't particularly want.

[lunar2]

yeah, but legacy champion has its own problems, like advancing prestige classes beyond 10th level pre-epic.

[Sturmcrow]

I designed my own sort of Legacy weapons (before I had ever heard of something like that), in my game I called them Heirloom items (they were inherited) and I gave each character with one things they needed to do to unlock the items potential.

Basically I made magic items that unlocked as they leveled continually advancing with them. No penalties and it allowed me to give other sorts of treasures because they each had a signature item that they would never part with.

It worked really well.