Powergaming, Star Wars Saga Edition

[Phippster]

I'm FAIRLY certain this is the right area to post this. Can't think of anywhere else. Some friends and I have recently entered a PvP game with two parties (We are rebels, the others are Imperials), and players on the other side have a habit of being munchkins to the point where you need a magnifying glass to even see them.

This is my current character as written.

Name: Kylar Victaris
Species: Human (Mandalorian)
Class/Level: Soldier 1
Age: 26
Gender: Male
Height: 6' 5''
Weight: 187 lb.
Destiny: Liberation

Strength: 14
Dexterity: 14
Constitution: 16
Intelligence: 12
Wisdom: 12
Charisma: 10

HP: 33
DR: 0
SR: 0
Threshold: 18 (18+0)

Fortitude: 18
Reflex: 22
Will: 12

Initiative: +7
Force Points: 5
BAB: +1
Speed: 6 squ. (4 squ.)

Weapon: Blaster Rifle
Attak Bonus: +4
Damage: 3d8
Critical: 20
Type: Energy
Notes: Weapon Mod - Extra Power Source

Armor: Beskar'gam (Medium)
Reflex Bonus: +8
Fortitude Bonus: +2
Maximum Dexterity Bonus: +2
Speed: 4 squ.
Notes: Lightsabers do not ignore wearer's
DR. Favorable bonus on Pesuasion checks to
Intimidate.

625 credits

Skills:

Acrobatics: +2
Climb: +2
Deception: +0
Endurance: +3
Gather Info: +0
Initiative: +7
Jump: +2
Knowledge (Tactics): +6

Languages:

Mando'a
Basic
Huttese

Feats:

Armor Proficiency (Light)
Armor Proficiency (Medium)
Weapon Proficiency (Pistols)
Weapon Proficiency (Rifles)
Weapon Proficiency (Simple Weapons)
Weapon Focus (Rifles)
Martial Arts I

Talents:

Weapon Specialization (Rifles)

Any and all help would be appreciated. I have quite a few of the books, but any I don't have that a build you give me requires, I can find. DM gave us permission to change SOME things, but I cannot for instance change my class.

Any ideas?

[Zarake]

Looks good, but what are you planning on doing for prestige or just sticking with soldier? My advice is that, depending on the era your in, try to intimidate some of the storm troopers, some may still be first or second gen clones and will respond to a Mandalorian.
As for a weapon, while the rifle is good, I suggest tracking down a heavy or even better a heavy assault for the stopping power.

[Diarmuid]

At level 1 I really dont see any way for a non force wielder to reliably do anything against a force wielder. Neither PC will have much by way of class abilities, but that Jedi can have something like 10 Force Powers and something like a +12 Use the Force mod.

You havent listed your feats at all.

[Phippster]

Didn't realize I didn't copy down my feats or talents. I edited them in.

As for prestige class, I was considering going into Elite Trooper and following the Mandalorian talent tree (at least to a degree) in the KoTOR campaign guide, taking the Armored Mandalorian talent and taking Heavy Beskar'gam later on, and because another member of the party plans on taking the Tech Superiority feat, having him enhance my armor with bonuses to DR and Fortitude.

In addition to that, I was going to make use of the upgrade points in Scum and Villainy to vastly upgrade my armor with mounted weapons, a powered exoskeleton, an internal generator, and a shield generator, in addition to an Energy Shield generator again from the KoTOR books, with SR 30, giving me all in all a 40 SR on top of eventually somewhere around a DR of 12.

As for the heavy weapons, the mounted weapons I was considering were a rocket launcher and a flamethrower. I was going to perhaps get an upgraded E-Web turret that was downsized via Scum and Villainy rules and use that as a two-handed weapon, but considering the rules for autonomous weapons I figure the rocket launcher can handle that while I use a Heavy Blaster Rifle for other purposes, considering it can attack areas or singular squares, as opposed to the full-auto of an E-Web.

[Diarmuid]

What's the intended level for the PvP aspect to come into play? A lot of the things you're talking about are way far down the line and require a TON of money. Not to mention that buying those items comes with it's own issues of availability and licenses and what-have-you.

[Phippster]

Our first PvP is supposed to occur around 3-4th level. The money problem is less of an issue due to the fact that our party has two nobles who both took the Wealth talent at level 1, along with a large cache of Imperial weapons supplies we plan on selling to the Rebellion.

Our DM is less worried about the issues of the availability with licenses and such, thankfully, especially due to the fact that even he believes we're probably going to need it to keep even with the other team's over-the-top min/maxing.

For reference, they just hit level 2 and they have a large sized droid with Damage Threshold 59, and dual E-Web turrets mounted on his arms. So the DM's being lenient on licensing for us. That and the Jedi has a habit of being rather liberal with his Mind Tricks.

[Diarmuid]

So something else to make sure of is that you're made aware of any "leniencies" that the other group is taking advantage of.

There's min/maxing and then there's asking a lenient DM/GM for things that he says yes to. If the latter, they may just be asking for things you wouldnt consider and the GM is letting it go.

In such a lenient DM environment, I really dont see PvP as a very good idea. It generally comes down to who's willing to ask the DM/GM for the most ridiculous thing, and some players just dont have it in them to ask for things that are stupidly powerful/broken while others do.

It's tough to help you optimize if we dont know what the level playing field is. It almost sounds like you should just liquidate every asset you have and buy the biggest baddest droid you can find, something in the CR20 range should be fine.

Is that droid you mentioned a PC?

[Phippster]

Yes. Their noble spent every ounce of cash he had on him, so it's not as though it was given to him. He gave both parties the same advantages, and he's not saying yes to everything people ask for. He's said he's only enforcing licensing fees on certain worlds, and considering we're in a rebel base anything we buy now isn't taking fees.

Other than that, I can't think of anything he's letting us have.

[Darth Grall]

As a former GM to Saga munchkins, I first ask, how many players are of Jedi? Are you pre/during/post the original movies? Cause there really shouldn't be a lot of them, but setting issues aside as the Jedi class is very broad, it's going to affect where you should take the build greatly.

So far, I'd recommend completely dropping martial arts I. Sounds to me you're going ranged weapons and armor, so don't bother with the martial arts. Yes it boosts your ref, but it won't help you with a stock strike or the like. If you wan't a boost to ref, just get improved defenses.

Furthermore you're missing your bonus feat from being a human.

And no matter how much you shrink a weapon down, it doesn't change it's proficiency, so keep in mind if you go heavy/exotic weapons you have to burn a feat for wp(heavy).

As for talents... you NEED armor defense and improved armor defense soldier talents... otherwise armor CRIPPLES you as it replaces your bonus from level as soon as your level is higher than the bonus from your armor. Get those ASAP.

[Phippster]

2 of our players are Jedi, both of which were capture by the Empire when we met. One of their players is some sort of Force-User, probably taking the Sith prestige classes. One of our's is going Jedi Knight, the other is going to go Force Adept. We're somewhere in the Rebellion Era, but I'm not sure on the exact time frame. I know the Rebellion exists, but the Empire is still in power. Somewhere around 4th-5th movie, I think.

And because my armor is not yet at a point where Armored Defense was useful, I took Weapon Specialization instead. My plan was to have 3rd level being Armored Defense, then taking Improved at 5th. Also I'm not missing any feats, unless you mean Martial Arts screws me out of a better feat. I have Weapon Focus and Martial Arts I.

As for ditching Martial Arts I, what would you suggest I took instead? And I'm going to drop a feat for Heavy Weapon Proficiency eventually anyway. I might ask to switch my weapon focus and specialization to heavy weapons then, since I want to get a mounted rocket launcher on my armor later regardless.

[Darth Grall]

2 of our players are Jedi, both of which were capture by the Empire when we met. One of their players is some sort of Force-User, probably taking the Sith prestige classes. One of our's is going Jedi Knight, the other is going to go Force Adept. We're somewhere in the Rebellion Era, but I'm not sure on the exact time frame. I know the Rebellion exists, but the Empire is still in power. Somewhere around 4th-5th movie, I think.

And because my armor is not yet at a point where Armored Defense was useful, I took Weapon Specialization instead. My plan was to have 3rd level being Armored Defense, then taking Improved at 5th. Also I'm not missing any feats, unless you mean Martial Arts screws me out of a better feat. I have Weapon Focus and Martial Arts I.

As for ditching Martial Arts I, what would you suggest I took instead? And I'm going to drop a feat for Heavy Weapon Proficiency eventually anyway. I might ask to switch my weapon focus and specialization to heavy weapons then, since I want to get a mounted rocket launcher on my armor later regardless.Okay, then you need to take the anti-jedi feats, for real. Unstoppable Force & Overwhelming Fire (both from clone wars) are musts. And if the GM gives you crap for the fluff, point out you've been fighting along side the jedi/force users on your side. And since you have a jedi you don't need to take all the stuff to make second wind your primary means of health. Just make sure they take Vital Transfer, then you'll never need to self heal.

I concur, hence why I recommended asap and not a replace. In anycase, I didn't see the WF. My mistake.

For martial arts, replace it with Improved Defenses. It will give you the same bonus to ref, plus one to will and fort. As for losing the melee component... you don't want to ever perform an unarmed strike against jedi, since some gms will infer bad things blocking an unarmed attack with a lightsaber(but that depends on the gm, since it's not raw). Also, since you want to live through the first pvp encounter, you can't really waste the feat when, as I've said, there are other you need.

[Phippster]

As for the blocking aspect, DM ruled that because Beskar, which my armor is made out of, is resistant to lightsaber blades, they would have a rather hard time of it to sever anything, but I see your point.

Okay, so let's see here. Would it also be a good idea to ditch MA 1 for Unstoppable Force or Overwhelming Attack instead of Improved Defenses? Also, would taking proficiency in Heavy Weapons and getting a down-sized E-Web be a viable option, considering I could be allowed to switch my focus/specialization to heavy weapons instead?

[Darth Grall]

As for the blocking aspect, DM ruled that because Beskar, which my armor is made out of, is resistant to lightsaber blades, they would have a rather hard time of it to sever anything, but I see your point.

Okay, so let's see here. Would it also be a good idea to ditch MA 1 for Unstoppable Force or Overwhelming Attack instead of Improved Defenses? Also, would taking proficiency in Heavy Weapons and getting a down-sized E-Web be a viable option, considering I could be allowed to switch my focus/specialization to heavy weapons instead?Carrying a miniturized turret is an option, but it's WAY too expensive at this level since you'll have to get the portable generator miniturized too and it's a target which can be shot easily disabling your weapon and the power source. Not to mention it would explode with the force of grenade. And even if you're using your armor's generator, you lose a standard or take a -2 on attacks UNLESS someone wastes an action regulating the generator.

Instead I'd recommend building into other heavy weapons, look at the Blaster Cannon from the core; it's the blaster equivilant of the rocket launcher. It has 10 shots, does the same damage, is an Area Weapon, is more portable and generally is more functional. And with a single talent, rapid reload for Elite Trooper, in Clone Wars on Pg 40, you can reload as a swift action and loose no actions. (http://http://www.scribd.com/doc/52859144/SAGA-EDITION-Clone-Wars-Campaign-Guide-Errata) And there is the errata for the "energy pack or power pack" for reference to your GM if he gives you trouble with the energey pack line. Or your could just get the dual power source upgrade and reload after your 20th attack.

And you can upgrade it like any other weapon how you like. But I'd also keep in mind the Gear Templates from Kotor, since they stack with the modification system from Scum & Villiany.

Also looking over your proposed armor, another thing I missed, I think that you've made a few miscalculations. RAW, all heavy armor only gets 3 uprgrade slots(except for specific armor that says otherwise), and heavy Breskar'Gam only gets 3 upgrade slots. So: mounted weapons are 1 for each weapon, a SR 10 generator is 3 slots alone, the generator is 1, and the exoskeleton(which you will never need) is another 2... Bringing the total to 7 at least. Meaning your hypothetical armor is incredibly illegal by the rules of the game. Honestly, just get the SR 10; trust me, that's enough as it is. And mounted weapons are bad.

More bad news too, your shields don't stack, RAW, just like DR doesn't stack(unless specified otherwise). Secondly, you're gettings some NASTY penalties for the kotor wrist shields, REGARDLESS OF PROFICIENCY. So that's -10 to dex & str skills. Ouch. And when activated as a swift, it has limited charges and when it's dead you cannot recharge it, you gotta buy a new one. And the last bit of bad news is that it only blocks energy weapons. So a monster's attack, a bullet, club, or force damage goes straight through it. Don't get these.

So... drop the rifle focus, get heavy weapon proficiency; buy a blaster cannon & mod it; then pick up unstoppable force as your 3rd level feat and overwhelming attack as your 4th level soldier bonus feat bonus.

1 WP Heavy
H WF Heavy
S2 Improved Defenses
3 Unstoppable Force
S4 Overwhelming Attack

[Phippster]

Beskar'gam is granted 2 extra free upgrade slots, bringing the total to 5 (or at least, that's both I and the DM read it). Using the system for getting more upgrade points by ditching either Max Dexterity bonus or losing Reflex/Fortitude bonuses (which admittedly will only work after some Tech Superiority upgrades) can give me up to 7, easily.

I did forget about the problem with the KoTOR wrist shields in regards to the shield penalties. But even then, the other upgrades are entirely possible. And why are mounted weapons bad, exactly?

[Darth Grall]

Beskar'gam is granted 2 extra free upgrade slots, bringing the total to 5 (or at least, that's both I and the DM read it). Using the system for getting more upgrade points by ditching either Max Dexterity bonus or losing Reflex/Fortitude bonuses (which admittedly will only work after some Tech Superiority upgrades) can give me up to 7, easily.

I did forget about the problem with the KoTOR wrist shields in regards to the shield penalties. But even then, the other upgrades are entirely possible. And why are mounted weapons bad, exactly?Ah, a google has proven you correct, however in my defense I'm not near my books atm. And you hadn't mentioned stripping parts... As long as you are okay with that, when as a ranged character you should pump dex eventually, then it's your character.

I still would recommend staying away from the exoskeleton. Your carrying capacity should be high enough as is with 14 str. A 16 STR isn't going to make that big of a difference.

They're bad imo for a number of reasons. Firstly, it's a mount per hand to weild the weapon, so heavy weapons take 2. So you're more or less limited to one handed weapons. Secondly, they're in the open and easily spotted unless you pay 3 times the cost. And then, once you've finally got your weapon aboard, all the enemy has to do is sunder your armor to destroy all the weapons too. And if you have a generator, then that goes explosive too.

Before you say that's hard to do with a +10 bonus on ref, there are LOTS of ways around that, and your armor has much less health than you do. So I recommend not giving them the incentive.

[Battleship789]

I played a similar character mechanically (also Mandalorian, but an Imperial Commando) in a PBP game on this forum that has since died. :smallfrown: Sheet at level 8. (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=362663)

My build, which may work for you (after some modifications), was:

Soldier 7/Gladiator 1/Soldier +1/Elite Trooper 1/Soldier +1/Elite Trooper +9

Bolded are talents, rest are feats.

Soldier 1: WP(Simple,Rifles,Pistols), AP(Light,Medium), Point Blank Shot (Human), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (X) (1); Armored Defense
Soldier 2: Improved Damage Threshold (Soldier 2)
Soldier 3: AP (Heavy) (3rd); Second Skin
Soldier 4: Weapon Focus (X) (Solder 4)
Soldier 5: ; Improved Armored Defense
Soldier 6: WP (Advanced Melee Weapons) (6th)
Soldier 7: ; Weapon Specialization (X)
Gladiator 1: ; Exotic Weapons Master
Soldier 8: Burst Fire (9th), Martial Arts 1 (Soldier 8)
Elite Trooper 1: ; Mandalorian Glory
Soldier 9: ; Juggernaut
Elite Trooper 2: Open (12th)
Elite Trooper 3: ; Armored Mandalorian
Elite Trooper 4:
Elite Trooper 5: Open (15th); Controlled Burst
Elite Trooper 6:
Elite Trooper 7: ; Greater Weapon Focus (X)
Elite Trooper 8: Open (18th)
Elite Trooper 9: ; Greater Weapon Specialization (X)
Elite Trooper 10:

For the "X", choose an Exotic weapon that will be useful until the character reaches level 8.

Advantages to this build:

Full BAB
High HP and Durability(10 levels of d10, 10 levels of d12 Hit Dice, 10 levels of Elite Trooper + Armored Mandalorian and Heavy armor yields 11+ DR, very high Reflex and Fort Defense, Delay Damage from Elite Trooper)
Proficiency (and Weapon Focus/Spec [Greater]) with all weapons*
Fairly high damage capability at range (Heavy Weapon + Various Feats/Talents)

If one doesn't like Weapon Focus (and Spec), they can be switched out for any combination of Devestating and/or Penetrating Attack (and Greater versions) (or even Weapon Focus/Spec) as the Gladiator + Weapon Strip allows for any weapon to be treated as a single weapon/group (Exotic).

Choices for feats at 12th, 15th, and 18th: Flood of Fire (negates Deflection and Dodge bonuses against Autofire, Clone Wars), Autofire Assault (Extra damage and reduced penalties for firing at the same target w/Autofire, Legacy), Unstoppable Force and Overwhelming Attack (as Darth Grall mentioned), Power Attack/Powerful Charge (if going into melee fairly often), Precise Shot (though one shouldn't be firing single shots with this build), Grand Army of the Republic Training (if viable for the character, this feat is one of the best. Gives armor's Fort bonus to Will defense in addition to the Fort defense, Clone Wars), and Imperial Military Training (meet Iron Heart Surge's little brother; sadly, it only works on mind-affecting but still very useful, Rebellion).

* Subject to DM approval/ruling and the only real reason why we have taken Gladiator (KotOR). The trick requires the following:

The Exotic Weapons Master talent from the Gladiatorial Combat TT (Gladiator) treats all exotic weapons as a single weapon group (ala Simple, Pistols, Rifles, etc.) and, if one already posses a feat that augments an exotic weapon, the feat will now apply to the weapon group "Exotic." While it is not stated in the original text, the KotOR errata adds talents to this. While fairly useful on it's own, this is not particularly amazing.

In Scum and Villainy, under the "Stripping Weapons" section on pg. 38, there is the way to "Design" strip. This changes the weapon type to exotic. By stripping all of one's weapons (that aren't already exotic), they will all fall under the exotic category (due to EWM) and are therefore affected by all feats/talents that designate a single weapon or weapon group. (For this build, the only weapon groups gained are Heavy and Lightsabers, as the rest are already required for the build. However, being able to apply feats/talents to any weapon is quite nice.)

Some general advice on going for multiple types of weapons:

Make sure your strength score is high. Lugging around a ton of weapons is cool, but the weight really adds up and encumbrance penalties are a pain.
Armor can be a finicky choice. The best, imo, are Beskar'gam (S&V, for Ref/special), and Clone Trooper fire-resistant armor (Clone, for Fort). Obviously, Beskar'gam is the choice for you, as your character is Mandalorian.
Get weapons with different types. (Piercing, Energy, Bludgeoning, etc.) Favorites are the Interchangeable Weapon System (Galaxy at War), Concussion Rifle (Unknown Regions), Missile Launcher (Rebellion), Tactical Tractor Beam (Galaxy at War), Flame Cannon (Galaxy at War), and Flechette Launcher (Force Unleashed/Rebellion) for ranged, Power Hammer (Force Unleashed), Vibrolance (Galaxy at War), Vibro-saw (Unknown Regions) and Lightsaber for melee.
Use any and all equipment enhancing stuff you can find (check out my character above for a pretty good example), especially the Tech Specialist (and Superior Tech) feats and the Equipment customization rules in Scum and Villainy. The Gear Templates are alright, but only the Prototype, Massassi, Sith Alchemical weapon (situationally), and Rakatan Weapon templates are really worth the cost, imo.
Weapons:Favorites are the Missile Load (with Concussion Grenades as the base), Miniaturized (for heavy/large ranged weapons), Neutronium Reinforcement (Keen enhancement!) and the Pulse Charger customization, along with the (Superior) Damage/Accuracy Trait (from the Tech Specialist/Superior Tech feat) for weapons. Armor:For armor, I like Miniaturized, Armorplast, Internal Generator + Weapon Mounts, Powered Exoskeleton or Shield Generator (if feasible), and Vacuum Seals (10 hours of vacuum/poisonous air/etc. protection) customization, with either (Superior) Agile Armor/Fortifying Armor for the Tech Specialist/Superior Tech slot (depending on the build).